Costco

I agree and I'm happy, but I feel like Honda is potentially missing out on some sales, but again that also comes with inherent risks. Devil's advocate here.... I think the main thing is many people were loyal to Honda/Acura at one time or another and were very happy with their TSX/TL/CL/RL/etc. until the time came for a new car, at which point there weren't any new Acuras that compelled them enough to give Honda their money. I guess I'm kinda like that in a way too. It's unrealistic for Acura to take a step backwards and come out with cars that are exactly the same, but I think the problem instead is that they don't feel as if the new Acura models are... progressive enough for lack of a better term.

I was reminded today looking at a post from neuronbob, who as many of you all know currently owns a CTS-V and previously an RL. He has mentioned it before, but in his recent post he talked about how nice it would be for Acura to come out with the Mugen Legend with its 500 hp V8. I'd be willing to put money on this.... if Acura indeed came out with a Mugen RL, assuming its competitive price-wise, I think Bob would be in that instead of a CTS-V

Just sayin.... though I did notice there was a bit of tasteless bashing in the 4G forum initially, as you sorta alluded to.

JD23

You're right, but are those technologies directly tied to BMW's participation in F1? I'm just arguing that if people are going to criticize Honda for dropping F1, they should be fair and also criticize BMW. IMO, both Honda and BMW were right to drop F1 and additional manufacturers will follow in the future.

civicdrivr

iTrader: (9)

I agree with everything you just said.

Im not looking for Honda to take a step backwards and build the same cars of 15 years ago, but to me at least, it appears as though they are just throwing away that page in the history book and going in a completely different direction, alienating all of those that helped build the company.

Acura speaks volumes to this. They used to make fun, involving vehicles to drive. Now they make Buicks with gladiator shields on the front. The lineup has a very "me too" feel to it, and it just doesnt fit.

I have owned 4 Hondas in my short driving life, and unless I can pick up either a used S2000 or an NSX once my CL has met its demise, I will not be looking at Honda for another vehicle.

Costco

You're right, it's not fair. But Honda is (or was) near and dear to many of our hearts and so we hold it to a higher standard. To put it as an analogy, I think most people would expect more of their own child than say, their friend's child.

I think they were right to drop F1 anyways. That's one area where their stubborness to do things their way really bit them. It was speculated that their insistence on developing the chassis and engine was a bit too much, and it shows. In their last season with Honda, Button and Barrichello were usually finishing near the bottom of the standings.... then the very next season a move to Brawn GP's chassis with Mercedes powerplants and all of a sudden Button and Barrichello are a force, with both of them on the podium not being an uncommon sight.

Colin

Yes, you are a young driver. If you get a chance, try to find the History International documentary on Honda. The series is called Voyages, the episode Honda NSX:
http://shop.history.com/detail.php?p...subject_sports

Depending on your area, you might find a showing of this on September 10th on History International. I believe that if you learn more about Mr. Honda and the company history, you'll see that in the greater perspective, they are not going backwards, not throwing away history. Are they really "alienating all of those that helped build the company?" Hardly. Because if that were the case, nobody would buy Accord or Civics, because THESE are the cars the built the company.

Colin

Yes, but now those engineers are back at work in the R&D facilities working on the next generation of vehicles. Thus, the failure of the F1 program was 'only' a failure to win. In a backhanded way, they may have learned more from this failure than they would have, had the going been easy.

As we look back on this third era of F1 for Honda, I think that as they lessened the reigns and let established F1 veterans take more control, they did better. They did the best with David Richards heading the team and later (had they stayed) with the Brawn chassis. They spent all last year developing that chassis, and that was when they were still Honda.

Edward'TLS

One very important point you've missed. A forced-induction V6 car can be flexible in the sense that

(1) it can be driven like a V6 with V6-like power under average circumstances (such as hauling families and/or running grocery trips) and with V6-like fuel economy. Now this is the gas saving mode.

(2) it can also be driven like a V8 with V8-like power under other occasional circumstances (such as passing cars and/or getting race happy). Now this is the high power mode.

It's like giving the car buyers one car but with two personalities. Unless the driver stomps the gas pedal to the floor all day long, V6-like fuel economy can be easily achieved.

This is currently the best solution to the ever-rising CAFE rating for the high power luxury car brands.

Colin

LOL, I don't think I missed it, didn't I point out the dual nature of turbos when I said, "If you drive a turbo or supercharged car in a fashion that it makes V-8 like power, it uses gas the same as a V-8. If you run the car like the EPA tests them, it can look really good...."

IMO with the advent of newer 'low-lag' technology, it's pretty hard to drive a turbo 'off boost' since they are designed to mimic large displacement engines. I would love to see a superchanged engine with a electro-magnetic clutch on the compressor. This would engage and disengage as load increased. You could even add a 'Mad Max' switch to lock it on, or off or set to auto. Of course, I'm describing the supercharger on my old '88 MR-2 (minus the mad max switch that I never got around to making).

Edward'TLS

It has been revealed that the Mercedes F1 powerplants are generating 30-40 more hp than any other makes of F1 engines currently in use. So it is no surprise the Brawn's are running away from the rest of the field when the track temp is high, even though the Brawn cars have constant problem getting enough heat into the tires when the track temp is cool.

Force-India is a bottom ranking team in F1, and it is also benefited by the extra power from the Merc. engines such as the Force-India cars are able to run at the front of the leading pack at times.

But we must also give credits to the Brawn chassis which was funded and developed by Honda F1. During the 2008 season, the Honda F1 team had already given up on the 2008 cars, and had spent all it's resources towards developing the 2009 cars. The team has developed side-by-side 3 design versions of the 2009 cars using it's UK wind tunnel, and then picked the one with the best on-track performance.

This season, Ferrari is doing exactly the same thing as Brawn did. So the 2010 Ferrari cars will be the one to watch for in next season.

Colin

Especially with Alonso in the car. I wonder if Honda had gotten Alonso for 2009, would they have stayed? Who knows, it might have been a Senna-McLaren-Honda like pairing?

Edward'TLS

Agree. The current F1 regulations require that the engine specifications be frozen in order to keep the development costs down. This effectively bans engine constructors from developing new engines until 2013, and in a sense prohibits testing new innovations.

In the past, engine constructors had virtually complete freedom to develop new innovations based on the skeletal F1 regulations. So now with very little to gain from building F1 powerplants, I too agree that it is time for Honda and others to leave F1 completely, until the "frozen engine specs" rule be removed.

Edward'TLS

Yes, yes, yes.

On demand supercharger but with no robbing of high-end hp, I like that.

Costco

Good point, I didn't see it that way. Unfortunately that's the way it went... as they were on the upswing I guess they saw that the scales just weren't in their favor and sadly they never got to really build upon their legacy in F1 right when the timing was best

I didn't mean for anyone to misconstrue what I said.... Honda obviously deserves credit for the chassis design. They got it right after a couple years of issues, and Brawn didn't just magically pull out a developed chassis out of nowhere when they took over. But Brawn did have to adapt the chassis after the plan was to use a Mercedes powerplant instead of Honda's and as it will read in the annals of F1, it was a Brawn chassis that had earned all those wins in 2009.

However I still doubt they would have done quite as well had they stuck with the Honda engine given the rave reviews and as you mentioned, the (supposed) higher power output of the Mercedes. But that's old news.

I'm sure the 2010 Ferrari cars will be contenders especially with Alonso joining the ranks. I just found it funny after all the drama that they and other teams raised about the Brawn and Toyota cars using diffusers, now they are using it or are probably planning to use it too. Probably bitter that their expensive KERS system was handicapped by the rules and ended up not being enough of an advantage to stay even with the diffuser-equipped cars. It was almost like steroids in baseball... at one point that's all the media had to cover and it was annoying.

krio

Don't agree.
I'm thinking changing my MDX 08 with a nuw SUV.
I went for a BMW X5 4.8... The exterior is fantastic, the interior is f. ugly and cheap, lot of plastic and the rear seats in the MDX are 10 times better.
I went for a Lexus RX 2010, what an ugly car.
I went for an Infiniti FX35... The exterior is simply unbearable. And no boot.
The Q7 is not a SUV is a school bus.
The ML as the X5 is 20.000$ more of an MDX fully loaded.
Conclusion: at the moment in the market for the price/quality offered by Acura with the MDX there is nothing better offered....
I will buy the 2010 model.

dom

Agreed....the MDX is a great SUV.

Just not sure you can say that about the rest of the lineup.

rondog

iTrader: (1)

You know what's funny?

How many Honda and Acura enthusiasts there are in this thread, forum and in general.
And all we do is complain. I mean, we might have a right to complain and bash Honda, but damn, we're all enthusiasts and loyal to the brand for a reason, right? They must be doing something right. If they were so un-inspiring, why are we all here discussing this, should be a room full of crickets based off all our theories of where Honda is headed. Just thought that idea was pretty funny.

dom

How many here still own an Acura is the question?

Many of us are here because we owned one in the past and would possibly like to in the future. Have a look at Car Talk and Auto news, there aren't many positive things being said these days about Acura.

Costco

on both counts. I would take an MDX also, I think its the ideal size and the interior is a very nice place to be. Kind of cramped for long-haul trips with 7 people though.

Our whole household used to be all-Honda. My Integra was the first car I personally owned. My mom has owned a 1997 Civic since new because its a great commuter car, and she still really likes her 2003 TL-S, also bought new. A while back she wasn't averse to the idea of trading up to get a 3G TL because she really liked it. But with the 4G, forget about it. She doesn't like the way a Lexus drives or the interiors all that much so she is looking towards the 3 German brands now.

and well.... I have no brand loyalty so If I were buying new, whoever makes the car that I like gets my money. right now my crack is big torquey V8s and RWD or forced induction engines.

SpicyMikey

I don't know dom, I own three right now, and it's not because I'm a loyal Acura customer, etc. It's just that when I go out to buy a car and do my homework, the Acura's have ended up being the smart decision, when all things were considered. It's easy (and fun) to nit-pick all the flaws in a car and/or brand, but when it comes time to spend $30-40-50k, all that theoretical bullshit sort of takes a backseat to the cold hard reality of value. The grill, the wheel style, the awkward way the beltline intersects with the wheel flairs, what others are saying in blogs and mags, all gets less important.

fsttyms1

Not must be, they Were as in past tense.




I still own mine, but its a 2000. That said, I wouldnt consider any of the new products they make other than the MDX which happens to be the ONLY appealing vehicle the Honda/Acura line up.

civicdrivr

iTrader: (9)

x2

The MDX is the only vehicle that is attractive.

dom

I don't know how many Auto News/Ramblings regulars are still Acura owners which is why I ask the question. I'll bet there are still quite a few 3G TL, CL and 1st gen TSX owners around just not sure about the current offerings. Simply because I don't think the current lineup speaks to the type of people of that frequent forums like this.

I can tell you with 100% confidence that if I was buying today I wouldn't even bother visiting an Acura dealership, regardless of the value. And you can't question the negativity towards Honda/Acura in these forums and others. Right or wrong, its there.

Colin

If you did buy a 2G TSX or 4G TL, you probably did so knowing what they look like or how big they are or what wheels are driven. That said, would you frequent any forum where your choice (and by extension) your judgment/values are always criticized? In the end, it's probably a little of both: A) a buyer (more mature or just busier?) not on forums as much and B) the constant criticism wears them down.

Moog-Type-S

The biggest complaints are coming from the Acura/Honda enthusiasts because their minds are blown by the way Honda is running the brand into the ground.

You might not agree, however, this is what the people compaining believe.

Ask yourself: How many "Honda/Acura is on a roll...fantastic...awesome...look at that new engine...drivetrain.....beautiful design!" threads there are around here?

Answer: Not many....if at all.

Like dom said, the Honda/Acura fans are leaving in droves.
There is so much other makes are offering that is fantastic, that Honda is not.

Honda/Acura used to have a lot of "gems" in the line-up....now they are few and far between.

Believe me, it was not that long ago when my garage was 100% Honda/Acura product for many years.....now that is no longer the case....and at this pace will be 0% Honda/Acura product sooner than later.

It's not because I am a badge loyalist....heck the past 3 cars I've purchased have been from 3 different brands....they could have all been Honda product if they created something that these other brands offered...but sadly, Honda/Acura does not produce anything that makes me want to come back to them.

Even Honda motorcycles has lost my favor....too bad, because I love my bike, but the next one (at this point) won't be a Honda...for the same reason I can't see myself purchasing one of their automobiles.

dom

I think its just an older audience. I spent years here defending the 1st gen TSX against the same old arguments....underpowered, FWD, "only a 4 cylinder", "should have bought an Accord" etc.... and yet I'm still here. I'm still here because I'm interested in what Acura's doing even though I no longer own one and have no plans to own one anytime soon.

krio

Moog I think the same question is for the enthusiasts of other brands...
I have always been an Audi's fan.
I went yesterday for an Audi A5 3.0TDI Sportback (I know that in USA you don't get this model).
In pictures it looks fantastic.
In flesh is ugly like hell. The interior is the same interior that you can find in all the Audi's rang. Great yes, but you get a ton of hard plastic too. The seats are hard and small. For me the last Acura's seats are among the best in the market.
Then I went for the options: you get a Sportback for BASE price 43.000 euro, and with ALL the options that Acura offer as standars, you get.... 65.000 euro.
I think that the BMW fans when they saw the new 5 series GT were NOT happy at all: what a design!! Hell, this car is simply f. ugly!
And the new Merc E series? Awful.
I think 80% of people buy cars because they are... reliable? comfortable? fuel efficent (not my MDX! shit)? safe? fully loaded?
It is 2 months I'm looking for my next SUV (or sedan) after the MDX 08.
There is not such a vehicle on the market: not such reliable, comfortable, safe and fully loaded.
Lexus, Infiniti, Merc, BMW, Audi are ALL: more expensive, or less reliable, or not enough comfortable, or less powerful.
I can say that the TL 05 and the MDX 08 are the best cars that I ever owned (Audi, Fiat, Renault, Subaru, Opel, Ford) in my life.

Moog-Type-S

If this were true, the advertising industry has been in the wrong direction for decades.

....but this is not the case. People love to over their cars. Look at all the car "sex" in the advertisements.

Sure there are the "appliance" car buyers....heck the K cars sold for years...somebody was buying them.

The vast majority of car buyers are moved by looks first and foremost....after that, to each his own...depending on the market....ie in cheap fuel times...MPG is a who cares...when fuel is expensive...it moves up a few notches in priority.

There are advertisements for MPG and safety and reliability....ruggedness (trucks)....but in the end the vast majority of advertising for vehicles is based off of "looks".

The big money in advertising can't be wrong

Yumcha

dom: Well, if you look at the membership on the other sub-forums (i.e. CL, TL, MDX, RDX, RL, etc.), there are still alot of peeps who own and love their Acuras.


I dunno if Car Talk and Automotive News audience is a true demographic...? Just a thought...but, I could be off to orbit here.

dtc5

My thoughts exactly.

We’re just all stating the obvious here. Of course it would be cool for Honda/Acura to tailor to car enthusiasts needs but that makes no sense business wise. Who wouldn’t want a 2 door RWD coupe with 7 speed dual clutch transmission, turbo charged 6 cylinder that gets 35 mpg and weighs 2,500 lb and cost only $21,999? The point is it probably won’t make money. Honda is a business after. Honda has decided NOT to build a money loser performance car to up their image like Toyota did with the LF-A and have the car enthusiasts complain about it anyway.

If you look at all the nick picks about Honda/Acura it always coming from the same people in the same general forums. We all know most people don’t like the current Acura designs. We all know Acura is behind in number of gear selection in their automatics, blah blah blah. I just think it is getting kind of old we still complain about it so often from the same people after all this time…

I rest my case

krio

Oh, come on Moog!
In Italy we have more VW Golf than people. in France, Germany and England is the same.
All my friends got this car for one or more times in their life, and nobody didn't give a shit about the look.
WHY people buy Golf? Because is fast? Because it looks good?? Because of the thrill of driving??
A car sold in 80% of cases with the BASE engine DIESEL??
Who really cares??
Why they buy it then? They buy it because is the BEST in it's class: reliable and comfortable.
Nobody buys it because it looks great. (In fact it doesn't look great at all.)

Moog-Type-S

Wait....now you are comparing the Euro driver to the U.S. driver?!?!?!

Why not compare the African driver to the Mexican driver?

Apples and Oranges....no?


We are talking about Acura...NORTH AMERICAN marketplace.

Moog-Type-S

It's like rain...on your wedding day
It's a free ride when you already paid.....

krio

Dtc5 , I am an Acura fan, I love this brand BUT I think Moog, Dom and other are JUST right in many things:
Acura PROMISED and WROTE, it's not me or you, many times to become like Aston Martin, Bentley, Mayback (!!! they WROTE it!! can you believe it??) to be looking on for performance, diesel engines, Tier1, and many great things.
We didn't got nothing of this.
But in the last 2 years in change of this we got the STRONG opinion that THEY DON'T REALLY F. KNOW WHAT THEY ARE DOING with this brand
AND WHAT ARE THEY LOOKING FOR: V6, V8, V4, Turbo, AWD, FWD, RWD????
I mean, they ALMOST got ready the new V10 NSX, a car worth of 150.000$, and at the last moment they stopped: sorry guys we are all WRONG!!
Acura is not at the moment a brand ready for such an expensive car!!
They TOLD it, I remember.

Honda speaks ALL THE TIME about fuel efficency: there is only one vehicle in the Acura range fuel efficent?? nope.

My suggestion is: Acura when you get some press release think twice before speaking about your future.

krio

You want to say that american driver percieve a Ford Focus or a VW Golf in a different manner from european??
We percieve as you Lexus, Merc, Audi, BMW as luxury, and VW and Ford, and Opel as NOT luxury.

Moog-Type-S

If you are comparing the NA Ford Focus to the VW Golf, the answer is YES!!!

The NA Focus is a joke compared to the Euro Focus...I wish we got that bad boy here in NA.


....as for all the rest of the stuff you said... I'm stumped...I dunno where you are going with it

civicdrivr

iTrader: (9)

How did we go from bashing Honda to Alanis Morisette lyrics?

dom

Did ya read my post? I said current gen Acura's. The question I still have is...which Acura's do they own?

No doubt people still buy the current gens, can't argue with stats. I just don't think many who buy the current crop of Acura's are the same customers who were buying the previous gens meaning they're not as likely to show up in here. We're all generalizing here of course. None of us have stats to back any of this up but I get that vibe around here.

I can say with a high degree of certainty that I've never seen such negativity towards Honda/Acura here and on the web in general. That has to mean something.

Colin

There are a number of names I see in the TL owner sign up with very few posts. It seems that some found the site but didn't stick around. Maybe they're just not the forum type?

dom

Which is exactly what I`m getting at. You can probably provide some anecdotal evidence of this by selling them. Do you see a shift in the types of people buying TL`s and TSX`s.

dtc5

I blame Honda/Acura's marketing department. They need hire an entire new department and new ad agency like GM, Ford, Chrysler and VW

No but seriously, I may not agree with their decision to cancel their performance focused products but I understand. Call me a business major if you want but markets change and if businesses doesn't adapt they will fail. ie, the old GM, Chrysler.