biker

While BMW is not touting too much the efficiency of their engines, getting real life 30+ MPG by customers (320) must help with word of mouth and sales.

phile

That's because BMW has other things to boast about. the efficiency of their engine is simply an added bonus.

Fibonacci

I love the poopdick mcfartington as much as the next guy, but let's be honest. Few of us pounding this forum have five prancing horses already in the garage and are on the waiting list for another $1.4 million dollar one.


I'm not writing anything off so don't put words in my mouth. I'm merely a skeptic. I was there at the NAIAS on media day when the the curtain dropped on the new concept. I heard the the rousing applause from fellow enthusiasts who genuinely hooted and hollered. I am intrigued to see what this car ACTUALLY materializes like and am fully prepared to step up and buy one if it is compelling.

BUT, its time for Honda to or get off the pot.

Exceptional cars indeed. And also exceptionally more powerful than the NSX.

I'm fully capable of embracing new technology. I'm not "stuck" on IMA. But now that the sport hybrid stats are out, it begs the question: is an extra 67 hp worth an 357 lb weight penalty?

Let's drive one and we'll see... Let's drive one and we'll see... Let's drive one and we'll see... Hey is there a 10 year echo in this thread?

Fibonacci

Lets see a years worth of sales numbers before we declare the Accord Hybrid a success.

EhkoXC

This is true, and yet a car that uses very similar technology is going to be available for much, much less money. As well, much like the original NSX you don't need to worry about something breaking or self-immolating like two of the three cars I listed.

That wasn't solely directed at you, but you're hardly the only one to be overly pessimistic about this car. Let's be perfectly honest here, Honda and Acura's problems are not the engineers that they have. With the amount of money and time Honda is investing in this car, they genuinely want to get it right and at this point failure is not an option.

Again, you're hardly the only one here, but why is it that people feel compelled to lump the HSV-10 development time in with the current NSX's development time?

You conveniently left out my other example of the GT-R which is rumored to be a Twin Turbo AWD V-6 hybrid. Sound familiar? Besides if the NSX ends up in the 450-500 HP range like most people expect, does it matter that it has 200 less HP than those cars if it's around 1/10 of the price?

While there are no instrumented tests for the car yet, most publications who went for the drive event came away very impressed with the system. It may only be an extra 67 HP, but from the impressions is sounds like the impact is much larger. In the end though, the system was never about horsepower numbers, it was about taking SH-AWD to the next level and it sounds like they did exactly that.

Everyone who mentions Honda hybrids being a failure is "stuck" on IMA because it's all they know and all they're basing their opinions on. My point was Honda seemingly learned from the mistake of the IMA vehicles and has put out some truly great tech in the new hybrid systems they are using. Like someone else mentioned the Accord hybrid is getting great reviews, the 3 motor system is in the RLX is well received as well. Sounds to me like they found their stride with hybrids. So while you talk about Honda hybrids being failures, current evidence seems to indicate otherwise.

JS + XES

iTrader: (1)

It's kinda early in the stage to real argue about this because we all know the all new NSX will be released probably around 2020.

Fibonacci

Let's hope they do indeed get it genuinely right and not hit the fail button. On paper it looks respectable for the intended price point they are aiming for.


I'm not comparing development time between the two platforms, just asking a rhetorical question. If you had an awesome engine that was 7/10ths (pure speculation) of the way to being fully developed, why not take it off the shelf and finish it instead of starting from scratch?


The GTR is an impressive car indeed, but not my cup of tea. And my cause for concern regarding the NSX does not lie in the price, I'm sure it will be a great value just like the original.


You didn't answer the question. Do you feel that an extra 67 HP is worth the 357 lb (give or take) weight penalty which the NSX may incur? When it comes to HALO cars, it IS about the numbers.

Its no stretch of the imagination to proclaim that thus far, Honda has failed in the hybrid game if you go purely by sales numbers. That is not a bold statement of opinion, that is fact. The new Accord hybrid may indeed be a leap forward for Honda, but it is too early to determine it to be a sales success.

EhkoXC

No argument that they should have brought back the V10 and V8 as well. I think in some ways we can probably blame CAFE for that.

If the AWD system really is as good as I've been hearing, yes, I think it is worth the extra weight. It's not just about numbers though, it's why all the auto mags will run the latest supercars against each other on an actual track in addition to doing a 0-60 and quarter mile test. Being able to beat those cars around the track (in my mind anyway) matters more than have a supercar that looks great on paper but isn't worth a damn under actual driving conditions.

I wasn't actually talking sales, but I won't argue the sales point with you. I was talking how the tech actually works. IMA was never able to compete with Toyota's hybrids on the numbers, yet the new systems seem to be among the best on the market.

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

Like I said, whether the change of direction (from V10 to V6 TT hybrid) is a good move or not, that's totally up for debate. Everyone has his own opinion on this. Your stance is that efficiency is not important for expensive, luxury brands.

I see it a bit differently. Let's keep it at that as we have discussed this many times already.

Ya 30mpg on the highway in a 3000lb car is not bad. However, city rating is also important. Don't you think so? You might only drive on the highway, that's great. But there are people who drive in the city too.

While there's "only" an extra 67hp, there's also an extra 105lbft of torque. What's more? Most of that torque is available right from the start, while the FWD model needs 4500rpm to reach its peak torque. The above, plus the new 7-DCT? I think the extra 350lb or so is worth it. That's about 50-100lb heavier than a typical AWD system. And we haven't even touched on the handling and fuel efficiency advantages.


How do we define sales success? To beat Toyota's hybrid sales numbers? When? This year? Next year? The issue here is that, Toyota has a huge advantage over Honda because Toyota captured the market properly, while Honda did not. I don't think it's realistic to expect Accord hybrid to do as well as the Camry hybrid in sales in the next couple years. I doubt Honda can change the perception of people (i.e. Buy hybrids? Buy Toyotas) that quickly.

fsttyms1

When you go shopping for a Porsche, Ferrari, Corvette etc... Are you honestly considering the EPA ratings? I know im not. I couldnt give 2 shits if one car has a few mpg more city than the other. Most are buying on preference of brand, power/stats etc.. The way i typically drive there is no way the NSX could achieve anywhere near city EPA ratings and in all likely hood be the same or worse than the others due to having to work that much harder. I dont buy cars on the EPA rating, i buy what suits my wants/needs.

ttribe

This really strikes at the heart of Honda's handling of Acura, doesn't it? Is Acura just another way for Honda to upsell its existing customers (who do care about such things) or is it an actual effort to penetrate the luxury market? With the way things have been run at Acura for the past decade, I have to think it's the former, not the latter.

JS + XES

iTrader: (1)

Ban MPG talk from NSX topic.

Costco

^edit:

With the once suggested V6 + hybrid powertrain, I could see the NSX getting good gas mileage.

But with a TT V6, even with IMA to help out, I doubt it'll have noteworthy fuel economy. Maybe relatively speaking.

fsttyms1

while it may attract some current customers i dont think it really helps to attract new (which is what sales seem to show) They need to concentrate on looks as much as they do with the "mpg" ability.

oonowindoo

fixed.

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

I'm not sure why this is so hard to grasp. I already said that, whether mpg is important or not, that's totally another matter. Honda chose its direction. Whether you agree with it or not, they are still going that direction. There were many discussions regarding this already.

The thing is, most people who buy these super cars don't care how much money they get to save by using less fuel. Like wise, most of these people also don't take their cars to the track. Note the keyword here is "most." I'm not saying EVERYONE is the same. With the above said, most people who buy these cars are mostly into bragging rights - hey I drive a Vette/Porsche/Ferrari/etc.

In the case of the NSX, the owner can go, "hey my car has 500+hp and can handle so darn well, but guess what, it also gets 30mpg in the city easily like your little Yaris." You might not care about that. Chances are, there are probably many folks out there that also don't care about that. But for those that do, they now have an option, unless they have the money to buy a P1, 918, or laferrari (and also enjoy the better performance, of course).

It's not IMA though. For the RLX, the rear motors are powerful enough to accelerate the 4350lb car to 50mph. Assuming the much lighter NSX gets the same motors (which is unlikely since the NSX should be getting more powerful units), it should at least match the RLX - the motors should take the NSX to 50mph no problem in normal situations.

Like fsttyms said, it depends on how you drive. If you drive like him, then chances are, you will be getting bad mpg in ANY car regardless.

JS + XES

iTrader: (1)

"Hey my car has 500+hp and can handle so darn well, but guess what, it also gets 30mpg in the city easily like your little Yaris."

Yeah, maybe some folks like Justin Bieber would say that and think it's cool.

ttribe

You have to admit, though, that's a pretty small niche market - buyers of $100k+ super-performance cars that give a damn about the mpg on said car.

Edward'TLS

Agree, since it is absolutely unrealistic to expect MPG to have any significant influence in buyers shopping for their maximum-horsepower supercars.

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

Comments such as, "sports cars drivers don't care about mpg" is true. No doubt.

May be I should try again, and see if I'm able to make you guys understand what Honda is doing here (with my own interpretation.

As we all know, during the recession, Honda got a new CEO many drastic changes to its operation and direction were made. I think we all know that the new direction is more about developing green cars. RWD, V8, tier-1, V10, etc? Those are gone, history. Those simply don't fit the new direction of the company. Is this new direction the right direction? I don't know. It does not matter since I can't do anything about it anyway.

Fast forward several years, and we are now seeing technologies that fit the new company direction: New Earth Dream engines, new CVT, new VTEC Turbo, three new hybrid systems, new DCT, new SH-AWD system, etc. Some of these new technologies have already been applied in new products like the Accord, Civic, RLX, etc. The real world results seem to be quite positive.

How can Honda make a super car that also follows the new company direction? By using a gas-guzzling V10 engine that? Probably not. People here have been saying how engine down-sizing is the best innovation in the world. Well, why not then? The result is a ~3.5L V6 Twin-turbo. If that's not efficient and powerful enough, then add a few motors to it. 500+hp? No problem.

That's not quite enough though. Sure, it's efficient. Sure, 500+hp should make a car quite fast unless it's super heavy. But we must remember what NSX stands for. For those who don't remember, NSX stands for New Sportscar experimental. The first gen NSX suits that name since before the first NSX came out, Honda was not known for making great exotics. Honda was extremely successful in F1 and selling Accord and Civic. But that's nothing to bridge the gap between the F1 success and the bread and butter sedans. NSX came along and fixed this issue. There were many new technologies and innovations with the NSX and I'm sure most of us enthusiasts here are already familiar with them. So I won't repeat.

As such, the new NSX must also be worthy of the NSX nameplate. Simply making a NSX that is similar to the 1st gen model IMO is a no go. What's so innovative about that? What's so "experimental" about that? The first NSX showed the world that, super cars do not have to be unreliable. It showed that super cars do not have to be hard to drive. Prior to that, people probably didn't even think about those things. The new NSX with its innovative sport hybrid sh-awd system has the potential to change our perception. Of course, there will always be people who are too stiff to accept this. That happened with the first gen NSX too. That's perfectly fine. After all, Honda is no Ferrari, and it cannot satisfy everyone. But to me, I think the new NSX is a good representation of where Honda is heading. It fits the image Honda is trying to establish. It showcases what Honda is capable of. It also allows people to see that, super cars CAN also be efficient. The technologies developed for the NSX can also be used on other less expensive models (i.e. I wouldn't mind if the next TLX uses a similar but much less expensive powertrain setup). People in recent years complain that Honda has been slow with its technologies and engineering. Well, I think the new NSX shows exactly what Honda is still capable of doing.

Will the NSX be the best super car? Probably not. Will it be the fastest? I guess not. Will it have the best bang for the buck? Don't think so. Can you answer yes to the above questions with the original NSX? Hell no.

Some may say, "well that's nice but it's still a vapor car". If that's the case, well, why don't we all just wait and see rather than be all doom and gloom.

Hapa DC5

It's partly because we've been waiting and seeing now for nearly a decade with the same ol song being sung from Honda between this administration and the previous.

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

That's totally understandable. It's fair for us to be skeptical as to whether Honda will really come through and bring this car out. Going back though, I don't think Honda was as serious with the previous concepts. There was the HSC. Honda didn't do much with it. The CEO confirmed in 2005 that the HSC was merely a concept. Then there were photos and videos of the V10 FR car. I don't recall seeing much news on that car from Honda. I didn't hear anything on actual production date, production location. Honda never said anything regarding having a factory setup for building such car. The 2015 NSX on the other hand is quite different. Honda actually named the car the NSX concept. Honda followed a strict timeline, and has been promising a launch date of 2015 for a while. Honda first showed the exterior of NSX to the public in 2012. The interior was then shown a while later. This year, we have received news on its powertrain as well as production location etc. I can't assume anything, but so far it sounds quite promising.

But the above IMO doesn't matter much. If Honda ends up not making the NSX, then it's the end of the discussion. However, if the car is coming out, I feel that the car is interesting and I'm eager to see what it can do and how it drives in real life. A lot of people here are quite excited about the P1, LaFerrari, and 918. The NSX will not perform at the same level as those cars. After all, those cars are around 3000lb while making 900hp or so. The NSX is probably around 3500lb at 500-600hp. It will most likely be way slower. However, it seems to be not a bad cheaper alternative to those cars as the NSX will cost around 10-20% of those cars.

Hapa DC5

I believe this car is coming out. Honda has lost a lot of fans over this decade.

Remember our generation grew up with Hondas and Toyotas in the garage not Ford and Chevys. They had a pretty loyal following as most of us in the 90s and early 00s bought their product, modified and ended up on these boards as we were able to afford Acuras not just and Integra or RSX.

Times change and a lot of us have just moved on lusting for other "dream cars."

Edward'TLS

^^^^^

Also for the absence of news on the much delayed TLX, a lot of 4G owners (AZ members) have moved on to other auto brands, especially Audi and Cadillac.

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

That's totally understandable. The days of affordable Honda sports cars are long gone. It's sad.

I think it's pretty obvious that the TLX will be HUGE to Acura. Hopefully the 1-year delay means the final product is a good one.

dom

Last 2 sedans to come out of Acura...The ILX and RLX. Not sure we should be expecting much from TLX.

phile

Yeah seriously don't hold your breath. I mean for their sake, I'm hoping the TLX is some decent package, but I wouldn't bet on it.

JS + XES

iTrader: (1)

I'm sure Acura has been prepping TLX for quite awhile already. They should scrap whatever they have been prepping for the last couple of years and just re-do it.

Otherwise, it'll be just another typical head scratcher move.

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

Haha yaa I understand. The styling is my main concern.

TSX69

Acura NSX Cameo on Comedians In Cars Getting Coffee - YouTube

The Acura NSX Prototype makes a surprise cameo in Season 3, Episode 3, of Jerry Seinfeld's Comedians in Cars Getting Coffee. Watch the full episode: http://on.acura.com/1hvennX.

JS + XES

iTrader: (1)

They forgot to add "Coming soon in 2020" at the end.

Moog-Type-S

Seinfeld (right at the end of the vid) : "I'm kinda impressed."


Kinda? I don't think that's what your peeps at Acura who cut your checks want you to say, and or feel about their vapor car.

Just say'n.

VR1

Production car is being showed in around 18 months.. My dealer already has a waiting list for the car. My sales assosciate told me it will be availabe in 2 years or a few months less.

Moog-Type-S

2 more years!?!??

Then again sales peeps know absolutely nothing.

JS + XES

iTrader: (1)

Tell them to put down the bong.

VR1

Don't shoot the messenger... Just telling you guys what I was told last week. I think it will be out in two years. Waiting list wouldn't surprise me with the amount of NSX's/GTR's/458's in the area I live in.

fsttyms1

Compared to the Z06 this thing .......


Shit or get off the pot Acura. If Chevy can turn around and design what they did in the amount of time they did it, you guys should have something available for purchase by now. I mean its only taken you what 2-3 canceled versions?

Hapa DC5

So this won't be a 2015 release?

Edward'TLS

^^^^^

Sorry, not any more !

Any one surprised ?

fsttyms1

nope, and sometime late this year we will hear they pulled or decided to do a mmc on it or the plug because of rising electric costs or something