(Cj)

Haha don't count on a non-IMA Honda hybrid

You should look into the A4, and seriously, the HS250 is not that bad. I think the TSX looks more like a Civic (the plenum grille is almost identical to the grille the Civic has had since 06) than the HS looks like a Corolla. Can you get LED headlights on a Corolla?

LuvMyTSX

It's ok looking, but still very closely resembles a Corolla in my eyes. It's also just way too expensive.

Additionally, I just don't trust Toyota after this recent throttle issue. I think they took far too long to look into the problems people were having. Too many people died because of their cover-up.

dom

[QUOTE=(Cj)]I think the TSX looks more like a Civic (the plenum grille is almost identical to the grille the Civic has had since 06) than the HS looks like a Corolla. [/IMG]

Put down the bong.

Costco

going from personal experience, with a STOCK car, a turbocharged car will usually get better fuel economy on the highway. But in the city or if you get on it, the MPGs will drop like a rock faster than compared to an NA car. on a Roots-style blower though, forget about it. It's physically impossible to get better fuel economy by bolting on a Roots blower compared to NA.

a turbocharged V8 is the ideal engine to me great sound, plenty of exhaust gases to spin up the turbine, and enough low end torque to pull from a stop.

a hybrid would be a nice car for one of my parents, or maybe the future wifey because most likely they'll want a quieter car with good fuel economy. But personally, I couldn't care less.

Belzebutt

My A4 2.0T quattro gets 23 mpg (and this is mostly suburban with very little stop and go), so I can attest that C&D figures are good and the EPA figures are optimistic. On the AudiZine forums many people ask about that and the fuel economy for the A4 varies widely, depending on how people drive. I can get between 21 and 27 mpg (indicated) on the exact same route depending on whether I step on it a little or drive like a granny. My TSX had nowhere near that kind of variation in mpg, it was between 23 and 25 mpg (calculated, so not directly comparable). I do think that the 2.0T is an engine that needs to be driven very carefully in order to get the EPA figures. Either that or my car is just easy to drive fast.

I think the comparison with the Taurus is terrible. The Taurus is a huge car inside and out, it's no wonder it uses a lot more gas than the A4.

AWD does make a difference and I would be curious to see C&D's real-world mileage for the 328xi. The highway mileage is mostly affected.

docboy

+1

Lexus included. From my own brief and disastrous experience with the 09 IS, they are nothing more than a pretty eye and a preconceived stuck up name brand.

Colin

I still miss my old Supercharged MR-2. The blower had a clutch to disengage the pulley. The electromagnetic pully was signaled to engage/disengage by a vacuum solenoid and it allowed good power and torque for its day and good fuel economy if driven without activating the blower.

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

I agree that going turbo would have the above advantages. However, you also lose a bit of refinement and there's the problem of turbo lag. I understand that these new 2.0T engines are very refined and have very little lag. But I think the newer V6 engines are also getting smoother like a V8 engine and have zero lag.

As for the comparison between he BMW's 4.4L V8 turbo engine and the Mercedes Benz's 5.5L V8 engine, I think we need to keep in mind that the 4.4L engine is quite a bit newer. I believe the 5.5L engine was released in 2005 in the W221 S class, while the 4.4L Turbo engine was released not too long ago.

A 2WD CX7 gets 17/23mpg, while the 2WD Murano gets 18/23mpg according to EPA. So the Murano actually gets slightly better EPA ratings.

That's what I was saying, EPA ratings matter because of the CAFE thing. But in the real world, things are different. That's my point. Another thing, hybrids are really good at boosting city mileage. In a lot hybrid cars the city mileage is almost as good as the hwy mileage according to EPA. May be that's why some manufacturers are going with hybrid technologies at this moment.

I was actually comparing the Taurus Limited against the Taurus SHO, but Taurus vs A4.

But ya, it's not surprising to see that real-world numbers are worse than EPA ratings for turbo cars. In EPA tests, they don't do aggressive driving cycles. They accelerate slowly so that the boost level is low. And obviously when there's not much boost, you aren't forcing more air into the engine and so less fuel is being burned. But in the real world, sometimes you have to step on it and then all of a sudden your 2.0L engine acts like a 3.0L engine. I guess that's an advantage because as a driver, you can choose whether to use that extra power.

(Cj)

http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/2008s...l=Murano%20FWD

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

That link doesn't work.....

But I checked again and got the following numbers:

2009 CX7 FWD: 17/23
2009 CX7 AWD:16/22
2009 Nissan Murano FWD: 18/23
2009 Nissan Murano AWD: 18/23


2010 CX7 FWD: 18/25
2010 CX7 AWD: 17/23
2010 Nissan Murano FWD: 18/23
2010 Nissan Murano AWD: 18/23

So, in 2009, the Nissan Murano, both FWD and AWD models, get better EPA ratings than both CX7 FWD and AWD.

In 2010, Mazda probably updated the CX7's engine or whatever and the EPA ratings are now about the same as the Murano.

(Cj)

The 2010 numbers are better and thats my point. A turbo car can be more efficient than an NA car.

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

It got better but still around the same as a Murano, which is not known for its fuel efficiency anyways. Besides, if I remember correctly, the Mazda engine has direct injection, while the VQ does not. That alone is about a 10% gain in mpg. My point is, I'm not seeing a very significant improvement in terms of fuel efficiency by going with a turbo 4 rather than a V6.

On the other hand, I see more improvement with the IMA system. Take the Accord V6 vs Accord Hybrid example, according to EPA, the Accord V6 5AT is rated at 18/26/21mpg, while the hybrid version (more power but not much faster due to the added weight) is rated at 22/31/25mpg. And looking at the mpg obtained by actual users, the Accord V6 is rated at 23.8mpg combined (based on 19 drivers), and the hybrid version is 31.5mpg combined (based on 6 drivers). Pretty significant difference. The downside as we all know is the price premium. And one reason for that is, Honda does not have many vehicles that use the hybrid system. I think that's why they are now trying hard to introduce more hybrid models to take advantage of economies to scale and that way they can lower the cost.

biker

The thing is tho, it will be very hard to bring the cost down too much regardless of how many you sell. A hybrid will always be some "add-on" to an existing internal combustion engine drivetrain. Even a diesel, which replaces (not adds) stuff on a gas engine is sometimes iffy financially, depending on what the costs are for those replacements.

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

Yup, and I think that's the reason why there aren't that many diesel hybrids yet - added cost of diesel plus the added cost of a hybrid system is probably way too much.

krio

With Acura's decision to nix V8 power and rear-wheel drive in favor of new hybrid drivetrains, dealers are worried that the brand's relentless pursuit of Tier 1 status – on par with Audi, BMW, Lexus and Mercedes-Benz – may be threatened. But that's not the real news.

Buried at the end of an Automotive News piece about a recent Acura dealer meeting was this gem:

"[Jeff Conrad, vice president of the Acura division] confirmed that Acura is considering a small car below the TSX sedan. The vehicle not only would compete against the BMW 1 series, Audi A3 and Volvo C30 but also would help meet looming CAFE regulations."

With the TSX's growth spurt, a smaller offering from the automaker could be in order, and judging by the competition, that could mean the rebirth of the RSX. Then again, Acura could pull a CSX (an upgraded Civic for the Canadian market) or maybe even a CR-Z-based offering. Judging by the choice wording, we somehow doubt the former is in the cards, but with Acura's recent hybrid push, something with a gas-electric drivetrain seems likely.

AsianRage

I doubt that they'll just rebadge the Civic. Though they would have to make sure that the interior size is about that of the Civic. Hopefully, the car will have more than 150hp pushing it.

krio

You know AsianRage the can very easy rebadge a Civic as a mini Acura...
Next year Honda will show the new Civic generation... the right moment for converting it in upper scale as an Acura entry model...
I don't believe Acura will create from 0 an all new car.
And it will be very likely an hybrid model.

biker

Isn't this a repost from some time back?

JediMindTricks

i thought acura had been planning this for awhile now.

funny how things change over the years.

Moog-Type-S

Ask the peeps in about the Acura below the TSX

Yumcha

Sounds like the CSX to me...

And time to merge.

biker

Acuraized CR-Z?

Yumcha

^ Acura CRZX...?

JediMindTricks

^acura CRZY?

dom

The beak looks funny on this thing.

chill_dog

^No worse than on the rest of the line up.

Yumcha

The CSX isn't the worst-looking of the Acura fleet. On an excursion to one of the Acura dealerships recently (helping my sister look for a used car), I also saw up-close the ZDX...It's not as bad in person...

From certain angles, the new TL also is bearable. These cars just don't photograph well...

biker

That's the thing - lots of folks shop by pictures to eliminate certain models and if someone has to use words like "bareable" to describe the looks of a car you have a problem.

I had a visitor to the house with the new TL - I'd still call it ugly.

Yumcha

Well, the reason why I'm not a TL fan (and call it "bearable") is because of the rear...

If they could fix that, I'd call it alright-looking. It's personal, right? But, as for the rest of the fleet, I don't mind them. Not for me, but not as bad as people say they are IMO. But, again, in person...

dom

Next to the TSX, its probably the best execution on one of their cars. I just feel it overpowers the car.

Moog-Type-S

We are all going to have to wait at least another 5 years minimum before the beak goes away

LuvMyTSX

I honestly can't believe they get away with selling the Civic and CSX in the same market. I mean, they look almost exactly the same. You'd think Honda as well as the consumers would care that these cars are almost an exact copy. I don't get it.

I hope they don't do this in the US. It would just be another joke, and a step backwards for the brand. Differentiation....explore it please, Honda.

(Cj)

Well I wouldn't put it past Honda to do something so stupid. If they do bring the CSX over as is (ie Civic rebadge), it'd be funny to see if people buy it (pun intended).

csmeance

maybe this may be an intro into a integra replacement, thus meaning a new ITR?

TSX69

Top Acura Dealers Mark End of Recession w/ Unprecedented Offer

NEW YORK, April 5 /PRNewswire/ -- With the New York Auto Show underway, luxury car maker Acura is grabbing headlines for its highly praised new models, but it's also enjoying an industry spotlight for recent distinctions as one of the safest and best-valued luxury cars on the road. These highlights have driven three of the five biggest Acura dealers to create a rare partnership in the industry that is now allowing them to make a virtually unprecedented financing offer they're calling "Triple Zero."

Recent announcements placed Acura at the top of multiple safest-car lists, with the brand distinguishing itself in 2009 as the only automaker to receive the U.S. National Highway Traffic Safety Administration's (NHTSA) 5-star crash safety ratings for all of its models. This crucial safety accolade came on the heels of yet another safety benchmark, as, in 2009, Acura was the first car company to ever receive the Top Safety Picks from Insurance Institute for Highway Safety (IIHS) for every one of its vehicles—car and SUV models included.

It is this spate of success which led top American Acura dealerships Rallye Acura of Roslyn, Paragon Acura of Woodside, Queens, NY, and Acura of Westchester in Larchmont, NY, to triangulate their efforts in order to offer customers a unique finance opportunity. Together, the dealerships announced their "Triple Zero" plan that lets customers pay $0 down payment, $0 security deposit, and $0 first month's payment on the 2010 Acura TL and 2010 Acura TSX 4 Cylinder models.

With a recent announcement by ALG, the auto industry analyst firm, that Acura topped its 2010 Residual Value Award list for the Luxury Brand category, along with the new announcement by the three leading U.S. dealerships, Acura is making an even bigger-than-expected splash at the New York Auto Show.

But in the wake of recent safety shakeups in the auto industry, the safety record of the two models included in Acura's Triple Zero deal might prove to be a greater motivator than even stellar value. It's this confident lead in safety and value that inspired the usually competitive three dealers, Acura of Westchester, Paragon Acura, and Rallye Acura, to break away from the rest of the auto industry pack in an unprecedented move and join together to drive the luxury market. Rallye Acura and Acura of Westchester have been the dominant Acura dealerships, in their respective markets, for years.

"Looking at the value, the safety, the luxury and the pure fun of driving an Acura," says Brian Benstock, General Manager of Paragon Auto Group, which holds the unique distinction of being the #1 Certified Pre-Owned Honda and Acura Retailer in the world, "it's clear that what for other car brands would seem like a huge risk is for us just a way of extending a hand to our customers. We want to welcome them to the world of Acura."

Brian Benstock and colleague Edith Singer were recognized as "Dealers of the Year" (AUTOSUCCESSDEALEROFTHEYEAR.COM) by Auto Success Magazine for changing the way vehicles are bought and serviced through their online virtual dealership. (www.ParagonCars.com) This unique service let's consumers build and buy vehicles, parts and schedule online service appointments 24/7.

The critics agree, with Road & Track calling the 2010 Acura TL a "serious bear-your-teeth sports sedan," MSN Autos regaling it as a "great choice," and TheCarConnection.com calling it "Boldly styled and laden with high-tech features." The Acura TSX 4 Cylinder, also part of Acura's Triple Zero offering, was similarly praised by U.S. News and World Report as a "fun-to-drive vehicle at an affordable price."

With the recession over but the job situation still difficult, car buyers who have put off a purchase amid economic uncertainty are making their first forays into the nation's showrooms. But with the effects of the recession still lingering, and the shocking wave of auto safety issues in the news, it's likely that only a safety record as air-tight as Acura's and a deal as hard-to-refuse as Acura's Triple Zero offer will get them back in the swing of buying cars.

TSX69

Acura Sets its Sights on 200,000 US Sales

NEW YORK -- Acura plans more differentiation among its products and may add a smaller vehicle in an effort to double sales.

Honda's luxury brand has fallen hard during the recession. U.S. sales dipped 27 percent to 105,723 vehicles last year. But John Mendel, executive vice president of sales at American Honda Motor Co., said he is aiming at 200,000 -- a level Acura last reached in 2006.

Mendel did not say when he expects Acura to hit that mark but said a new strategy is in the works.

"You will see a clear definition within the portfolio of small, medium and large vehicles," he said. "There will be less blurring between capabilities. There potentially is room for some expansion as well."

Acura is taking a close look at small-premium cars such as the Volvo C30, Audi A3 and BMW's upcoming front-wheel-drive cars. Acura made its early gains with the Integra and RSX in the 1980s and 1990s before killing the RSX after the 2006 model year as the brand tried to move upmarket.

"Those cars were about performance and fun," Mendel said. "We can build on that."

But he said Acura "never had a really clear direction, other than as an intercept brand, a utility player."

Said Mendel: "Everyone considered us entry-luxury or near-luxury. Now we are clearly defining this area of smarter luxury. We have a very strong direction."

Dave Conant, a multiline dealer with a new Acura store in Mission Viejo, Calif., said he doesn't know how quickly Acura can manage such a turnaround.

"I wouldn't bet on those volumes in the next several years, but I wouldn't bet against Honda's ability to pull it out in time," Conant said.

Signs of Recovery

Acura already is showing signs of recovery, according to Edmunds.com. Buyer consideration of the brand has been rising since September and is at a three-year high.

"Acura is suffering no more than the industry overall," said Edmunds analyst Ivan Drury. He added: "Others in the segment have fared far worse."

But Todd Turner, a consultant with Car Concepts in Thousand Oaks, Calif., said Acura is not popping up on shopping lists.

"The brand has polarized its design to such a degree that only a mother could love it," Turner said. "Acura's consideration set is neutral, which basically means they are in a holding pattern for the foreseeable future."

Mendel Disagreed.

"We don't have any baggage," he said. "We're not anchored by people saying that the brand is too old, too stodgy or too opulent for them. The naysayer says we are not strongly defined. But that means we can be what we want to be and not worry about perception. This is an opportunity for us."

Problem: Closing the Deal

Lincoln Merrihew, an analyst for the Boston market researcher Compete, said that if Acura has a problem, it is not attracting consumer interest; it's converting those shoppers into sales.

According to Compete, Acura converted 21.9 percent of shoppers into sales in 2007. That dropped to 18.8 percent in 2008 and just 13.7 percent in 2009.

Acura's market share has declined as well during the past five years, and the sales slump has been felt across the entire lineup. Acura's volume leaders, the TL sedan and MDX crossover, once sold 75,000 and 60,000 units, respectively. But they fell to just half those amounts last year.

Mendel said as-yet-unveiled products "in the middle of the lineup will give a more clearly defined hierarchy to the brand that isn't so defined today."

Meanwhile, Acura will evolve away from the extreme design used for the ZDX crossover. Mendel said future vehicles will be less polarizing.

"In order to create a ripple, you have to create a splash," he said. "The ZDX sets a tone. We were countering the criticism that Acura was bland. The strength of keen-edge design is in the lines, surface tension where the metal bends. You will see that more and more."

phile

I don't know anyone who thinks Acuras are too opulent. I know I ain't, and I have a good estimate that 100% of the people here don't think so either. Is he really that out of touch with the market?

elessar

Until they figure this out, they're basically screwed.

PG2G

Sounds like they already did

tmnhs81

They better do it. if not then Acura. It was good to see you around..