dom

What I find interesting is that we havne't heard 1 thing from Honda about where their engine technology is going in the near future. Hydrogen is several years away. We know several companies are going to small displacement FI engines. No clue what Honda's doing. Can we expect marginal improvements to their existing engines for the next few years?

Everyone has caught up if not surpassed them in terms of MPG and power. They look to be playing catch-up at this point.

Costco

It's the Honda way - stay hush-hush about things. And then when you do tell people about something, months later announce that it's been canceled or postponed indefinitely

neuronbob

They did and we got Power Phlegm and the 2009 TL out of it.

This whole thing is a lot like the Cleveland Browns imploding this season.

So far, it looks like president Ito is like Randy Lerner standing in the tunnel after the Browns' loss to Chicago yesterday, clearly pissed off that the team is losing badly.....then let go their general manager today, booted out with security in tow. Great, fire the wrong guy! (This Browns fan is hanging his head in shame.....)

That was part of the point of my post above. V8, RWD, flashy style are still mandatory in the eyes of both the masses and enthusiasts to be Tier 1. If Acura still wants to play in the luxury market without those things, they have to figure out a whole marketing campaign dedicated toward this...not just TV ads. So far, Acura marketing sucks bollocks, and they have nothing to generate buzz among enthusiasts, an important part of marketing. Hell, give Comptech a TL to put some power mods on. A 400 hp 4G TL with SH-AWD will get positive attention even though the front is ugly! Give the enthusiasts something to jizz over! You have to spend money to get money.

Again, requires a rational marketing plan with massive resources Honda would rather commit to HondaJet.

Again, just some random thoughts.

majin ssj eric

God can we just change the name of this site already? Acura doesn't deserve a forum as awesome as the AZine...

Costco

I suggest Infinitizine or BMWzine

Edward'TLS

Agree. V8 and RWD are the MUST for any "Tier-1" luxury brand.

No V8, no RWD => no "Tier-1" luxury status. It's as simple as that.

The Acura brand has been going around in circles all these years, trying in vain to beat the odds of becoming a true luxury brand without V8 nor RWD. It has failed, and is now giving up the effort altogether.

With Acura's revised focus no more on performance, this will definitely bring the Acura brand down closer to the economy Honda brand more than anything else.

Only by having RWD standard on all models of the Acura line-ups will set the Acura brand apart from the cheap FWD Honda brand.

Now the revised Acura brand will compete not with BMW, MB, Audi, Lexus, but with it's own Honda, VW, and even Toyota.

Edward'TLS

With V8 and RWD now out of the question, I wonder what good will the new $50K+ V6 AWD RL that will lurk buyers to pay the extra premium over the V6 AWD TL.

I don't see much future in Acura with this revised business plan.

(Cj)

hahaha +1

+1

SpicyMikey

Ed, let's not write Acura's obituary over this. They've done quite well with their current formula DISPITE all this doom and gloom I read on here. My God, Aziners bash Acura more than the other sites I frequent. Sometimes I honestly don't understand where that comes from.

This latest statement from Ito seems more of an admission than a change. Their current business model is FWD based platforms with V4 and V6 engines. If they were to stay with that they'd be fine. Data shows that. So far this year Acura NA sales are ahead of most lux brands except MB, BMW, and Lexus.

Acura- 76,628 units
Cadillac- 73,024
Infiniti- 59,866
Audi - 59,518

PG2G

Pretty much, this is just business as usual. If anyone thought becoming "Tier-1" was necessary for Acura to survive, they were kidding themselves.

majin ssj eric

I'm not saying that Acura will not survive. I'm just saying I no longer care whether they do or not. I'll take my business to car companies that actually car about us car enthusiasts...

mrdeeno

As Acura moves AWAY from being a comparable lux brand, these numbers mean less and less.

Might as well throw Hyundai's sales numbers in there, since they're becoming a more legit "luxury" brand than Acura.

dtc5

Acura will probably follow Honda in their future products. The cars will be lighter and more efficient and THAT is what Honda does best and they are going back to their roots. We all kind of forgot what made the NSX special in the first place: its light weight compared to other sports cars at the time.

We’ve all somehow been conditioned by car manufactures that big engines = performance/luxury. I’m not an engineer but I’ll bet that it is easier to just build a big engine and increase cylinder count to reach performance goals than to engineer light weight chassis and design small and efficient engines. Or better yet, just add a 3rd party manufactured turbo to your existing engine and call it a day.

(Cj)

Acura's sales are down further, than Infiniti and Audi, and their dow further that the more expensive big 3 lux brands BMW, Lexus, MB. I'm not sure Acura has much of a future with their sales and marketshare in the luxury segment dwindling.

fsttyms1

3 MAJOR players they hope to compete with. And with this latest announcement they will probably drop even further into a market where Acura will be competing with HONDA. Makes great sense to me

fsttyms1

But thats just it, they arent ahead of every one, they are the same at best, and behind in other areas. They got caught with their pants down and i think they broke both arms trying to pull them up and is the reason the pants are still down.

dom

Audi does just fine without RWD. I don't think we can say RWD + V8 = win. There's so much more to it that. I think they can succeed with AWD and more advanced and powerful 6's. But as it stands, they don't have anything innovative. Performance and MPG figures are mid pack and their styling is sub par. The only area they can hang there hat on is safety. Not exactly what luxury car buyers lust after.

dom

Everyone else is also going lighter so Honda isn't somehow special or the only one going this route. If they were there already then I'd say they're ahead of the game. There's nothing special about doing what everyone else is.

(Cj)

Hmmm, we see where that focus got Volvo. Lincoln seems to be doing better with their new EcoBoost engines that get the performance of V8s with the MPGs of a V6, but I'm not sure if EcoBoost made Lincoln anymore "prestigious".

SpicyMikey

I was suggesting we not overstate the problem. It's true the Acura brand is not ahead of those three. I acknowledged that in my post. But remember, those three are global brands. They have larger lineups. Acura can't possibly expect to compete with those brands on sales numbers.

Again, point is, the sky is not falling for the Acura brand. They have a good product and should expand it. Not trash it and try to go after MB, BMW, and Lexus! Personally, I think it's unrealistic to try and catch MB and BMW. Lexus can be caught, but evidently HMC doesn't think the fight is worth the cost. From a car lovers perspective, that's too bad. From a shareholders perspective, it's probably smart. This Ito may be the first smart leader they've had in many years. Time will tell.

dom

But its a positive nonetheless.


These things don't happen overnight. Ecoboost has been out what, 3 or 4 months. And like I said, there's more to it than that.

fsttyms1

But those are some of the cars acura would like to compete with (and have claimed to). Who are they directly competing against? If going after MB BMW Lexus is unrealistic who is their direct competition/segment? Infiniti? Even they have more grown up vehicles. You would "think" that when building cars to "try" to compete in some of these segments they would find a direction they would like to go and stick to it, not change year after year unsure of yourself. You either do or you dont. To me it seems like they are competing with them selves.

paulff3

This is interesting as I was just at my dealer Friday - Acura of Peabody Massachusetts. It's brand new and it's the largest and most modern facility in the country. If you are in the area, check it out.

SpicyMikey

There were two basic themes running through the first posts of this thread; Acura is doomed. Acura is stupid. I was just commenting on the "Acura is doomed" notion. They are far from doomed. They have a good product, with a solid followng. Problem is; it's small and localized to North America. That makes it pretty hard to compete with the big three in front of it (regardless of V8 or RWD).

Why has HMC kept Acura so small and localized? I don't know. That's actually the more interesting business question to me. Maybe they just underestimated the potential for a global asian luxury brand back in the 80's and let Toyota overtake them? Maybe they didn't underestimate anything and just have a different business model from something that excites performance car enthusiasts. That doesn't necessarily make them stupid. They have a good profit margin and cashflow. Certainly better than BMW right now

dom

Do we know that to be the case for Acura? Honda maybe but what do Acura's books look like.

(Cj)

+1

I would actually assume Acura is losing money because if they weren't Honda wouldn't have cancelled all of Acura's future products

SpicyMikey

There is no Acura company. Acura is a marketing brand owned by American Honda Corporation which in turn is a wholly owned subsidiary of Honda Motor Company. I think I have that right. Someone correct me if I have the corporate structure wrong. Regardless, they are not publicy owned and therefore finacial numbers are not released. I'm sure it's maintained internally but we can't see those numbers.

I admit I'm referring to Honda when talking about financials. That's really what matters. Same with Lexus. The strength of Lexus is dependent on the strength of Toyota. The two can't really be separated.

dom

And that's my point. We don't know how Acura is doing. You can't use the argument that because Honda's in the black, so is Acura.

And I'm sure Acura's financials 'matter' to the people at Honda.

Edward'TLS

I'm not suggesting that the Acura brand will die right away. But it will certainly lose it's attractiveness, and sales will suffer if continuing the revised path.

Acura vehicles have an edge over Honda vehicles because of the brand prestige : near-lux status. But with Acura now moving away from "luxury" status towards economy status, this edge is lost.

If Acura can't catch MB and BMW, it's product lineups will begin to compete with the upper economy brands, and even with Honda.

It doesn't make much business sense for an auto company to keep two non-luxury brand divisions running side by side, even competing between themselves. From a shareholders perspective, this is very BAD.

Might as well combine them together into one with an expanded product lineup, just like Hyundai/Kai.

SpicyMikey

I could be wrong, but I think you are misreading their intent from what Ito said. He was backing off from early statements about being Tier 1 like Bently and Maybach. In the same statement he also reiterated Honda's intention to be more like BMW and Audi. Again, I'm not sure anything has really changed. Just a clarification of some wacko statements made earlier this year by people at AHMC.
Even if it has changed, I think the clarification is GOOD. He never said he wanted to turn Acura into a econo brand like Honda. Reread it again and let me know if I'm wrong. It wouldn't be the first time.

Edward'TLS

Obviously with multiple product programs all canceling over on the Acura side, Acura must be bleeding money. But it's business as usual over on the Honda side, the profit made by the Honda side must be more than enough to cover the Acura side.

dom

That's the way I understand it as well.

neuronbob

This is the whole point of another of my posts above.

Acura needs to get out there and market the hell out of my idea of "alternate luxury"--V6s as powerful as V8s, awesome interiors, AND give us flashy (but tasteful) luxury exterior design. Acura is a MARKETING division of Honda that doesn't market successfully.

Audi is quite successful without RWD (though it does have some V8s) and is seen as a brand of somewhat high cachet even though they sell fewer cars than Acura.

That said, I'd rather be in an Acura than an Audi.....other than the R8....

SpicyMikey

http://www.autoweek.com/article/2009...NEWS/911029995

Here's a link to an Autoweek story. It has some more of the Ito quotes than the other link offered early today. I've read other articles as well with more content but I can't remember where it was.

SpicyMikey

Sorry. Try this link

http://www.autoweek.com/article/2009...NEWS/911029995

dom

Is he talking about the current lineup when he says gorgeous?

Edward'TLS

Yes, intention is always good for Ito-san. But how will he materialize his intention, that's the most important part.

"To be more like BMW and Audi" !!!!!

Both BMW and Audi have super-performing divisions : M for BMW, S and RS for Audi. Both have high power V8 and V10 engines. Both have multiple $50K+ vehicle model lines. Both offer optional AWD in almost all model lines. Both have available accessory option lists over a page long.

BMW's run on simple, fuel efficient (compared to AWD), non-torque-steering (compared to FWD) RWD chassis.

Audi has the exotic-grade V8 and V10 R10 supercar.

However, what does Acura have or will have ? Acura has none of the above. It did INTENT to do some of the above, but not anymore, thanks to Ito-san.

So HOW is Ito-san gonna transform Acura "To be more like BMW and Audi" ????? Talk is cheap, it's what it does that matter most.

SpicyMikey

I'm with you on that side of the discussion. Time will tell.

The only positive I take from this is that for the first time in many years it feels like someone at HMC is thinking about Acura and has taken personal charge in setting a clear direction for the brand. That's good even if we don't like the direction.

Like I said earlier, Acura is just a brand. It's a sticker on the back of your car. Nothing really more than that. As Honda goes, so goes the Acura brand. Watch HMC for direction not Collier and his clowns at AHMC in California. They were the ones who said they wanted Acura to be like Bentley. Put down the bong Dick and step away from the table. Ito is in the room. Let's see now what he can do for this brand

fsttyms1

Exactly. They want to be more like audi and bmw, but they are going the opposite direction of them and will be more like a slightly spiced up version of honda

Like stated above how do they plan on doing that when they are pulling away from doing things like those other brands?

It will be hard for them to be more like in the direction they are going

Edward'TLS

I agree that Acura is just a brand, but it's the upmarket brand that Honda Motor Co. has spend big effort and big money to try to differential it from the economy Honda brand. They are separate entities.

A luxury brand carries a certain prestige, an economy brand doesn't. It is this prestige that makes luxury brand products so desirable, and that makes luxury brand products sell by themselves. The Acura brand has some, but the Honda brand has none.

I have some reserve with a single man, Ito-san, sitting lazily on the top floor of the Honda Motor Co. building remotely dictating the direction of the Acura brand whose major market is in North America where Dick Colliver knows best.

Doesn't it sound like a deja vu of Rick Wagoner (GM CEO), Robert Nardelli (Chrysler CEO), and Alan Mulally (Ford CEO) who together almost drove GM, Chrysler, and Ford into the grave, just because they failed to acknowledge what the auto market really wanted.

Dick Colliver is the one who knows the NA market best. Ito-san doesn't. Even though Dick was crazy wanting Acura to be like Bentley, but targeting Acura to be like MB and BMW is not unreasonable. They should work together to work out the most appropriate business plan for the NA Acura market.

I still think that Acura shouldn't back away from becoming MB and BMW, and canceling the V8/RWD/NSX programs as a result.