brizey

Where the hell does this whole "Tier 1" thing come from anyway? I have subscribed to 6 car magazines for a good 20 years or so, and have read three of four car forums almost daily since the mid 90's and Acurazine is the only place anyone uses the term.

Colin

I believe it was Mr. Fukui (then HMC president) that said that their goal for Acura was to become a true "tier 1" manufacturer. This was a stated long range goal, that most detractors use to show Acuras failings. They tend to either ignore or 'forget' that this declaration was made before the economy turned sour.

It is also often mis-interpreted that he meant that all product 'starting now' would become 'tier 1'. Most in the industry feel he was saying that new chassis' were in development but would follow a natural introduction cycle. BUT he wasn't really clear, and thus the discontent. Personally, I think he was saying that if they start now (18 months ago) we would see the fruits of that labor with 2012-2013 product introductions.

Sly Raskal

iTrader: (1)

WHO WHO WHO?

I had an Audiot moment not too long ago. But can honestly say I'm not an Audiot. But I wouldn't mind being called an Audibot (if you understand the play on words and can pronounce it properly).

https://acurazine.com/forums/showpos...&postcount=269

Colin

^^^ LOL, and you missed your chance for the BEST vanity plate ever! Audiot!

Sly Raskal

iTrader: (1)

I'd rather

Colin

Edward'TLS

Let me explain this.

Ever since the advent of automobiles and right up to the beginning of 2008, there existed only 3 brands of auto class, namely the exotic brand, the luxury brand, and the economy brand. So any auto brand name which didn't belong to the exotic or luxury brand was automatically classified as economy brand. Everything was simple and clear then.

However, during the Detroit auto show in Jan. of 2008, then Honda CEO Takeo Fukui invented the word "Tier-1" to be used when delivering his speech.

Here's the background information. When Honda set up it's "luxury" auto division in 1986, it would never have dreamed that even after 23 years, the Acura brand still failed to achieve the recognition as a TRUE luxury auto brand. (Simply do a search will find all articles in 1986 stated that Honda created Acura as it's LUXURY division.) Thus, it was already acknowledged 23 years ago that the Acura brand was going after BMW and MB which were the luxury brands at that time.

As of now, the Acura brand still remains to be recognized as the wannabe-luxury brand from Honda.

However, Lexus has succeeded, with it's V8-RWD flagship accompanied with MB luxury-mobile styling cues. Acura had none and still has none !

So in 2008, after Mr. Fukui realized that it's "supposingly luxury" Acura brand was still far from gaining the luxury brand status, he invented a jargon word, "Tier-1", to cause distraction from his failure with the Acura brand. He used the word "Tier-1" luxury to describe BMW and MB, but made no attempt to clarify how this "Tier" system was determined nor to specify what "Tier" (Tier-2?, Tier-3?, Tier-4?) the wannabe-luxury Acura brand was currently at.

His sole purpose was to try to confuse people in thinking that the Acura brand was already at the some lower end scale of the luxury status, in order to cover up the fact that the Acura brand was not a TRUE luxury brand at all.

So it's not a surprise that you can hardly find any other reference to "Tier" naming/system other than from Honda/Acura.

As of today, Honda/Acura is the sole auto company using this "Tier" naming/system to gauge luxury brands. No other auto maker on earth has followed suit to use this peculiar Honda/Acura way of gauging luxury brands. Why should they ? There are always luxury brands and economy brands. Not many auto brands are getting stuck in between, selling product packages not premium enough to achieve luxury status, but expensive enough to be excluded from the economy status. Poor Acura !

CarbonGray Earl

LOL, couldn't see this at work earlier....awesome plate.

neuronbob

Edward, what terminology are you referring to?

Most folks in the automotive press (which I have read for 30 years) speak of economy, premium, near lux, luxury, and exotic. Of Acura's lineup, I would consider the TSX and RDX premium, the TL near lux, and the RL and MDX luxury. I agree with you on the "Tier 1" comment which is apparently internal Honda jargon.

Acura is down but most certainly not out.

Legend2TL

It's not that simple, there's many gray area's in the auto business and to apply 3 levels is overly simplistic at best. In reality there have being many tiers/levels of vehicles since the start of consumer vehicles started. In the beginning it was easy but by the 40's/50's it all started to blur and blend between brands going from the low end to the high end. This is very apparent in the Honda price rangle having lot of overlap in the Acura price range.

BTW, I've heard Tier-1 used many times in the past whether describing Cisco products, Rolex, even a neighbor who sold hospital equipment used the term to describe certain brands. I extremely doubt Fukui was the first to use it in the auto business in a speech.

biker

So what tier would a Genesis be?

Legend2TL

With a purpose built chassis, RWD, V8, 6AT, definitely above anything Acura is offering up

biker

^ so then the issue is: what makes a certain car a certain "tier"? Is it what's in the car or the badge on the hood?

Is an MB A180 a "tier 1" car because of the badge on the hood or is it just an overpriced econobox that's no better than a Fit?

TSX69

Acura No Longer Gunning for Tier 1 Luxury;
Will Offer Sensible Luxury Vehicles

After dropping plans to produce an Acura NSX along with the cancellation of a V8 engine and a rear-wheel-drive program, Acura is reversing its direction in North America.

There is “a certain level of confusion” about Acura in the marketplace, Honda Motor Co. CEO Takanobu Ito told Automotive News. “We are in the midst of big changes. We’ve changed the direction of research and development.”

Ito said that he sees the “future of Acura as a merger of BMW and Audi–something between high technology and high performance.” But until Acura gets everything sorted out, it will be in a “low-growth period of developing new products,” Ito said.

Dealers who invested a lot of money in upgrading their showrooms are understandably angry. Dealer Dave Contant, who owns an Acura store in Mission Viejo, California, said dealers may not be able to wait out the transition.

“The direction of product will be completely different from where it was a few years ago,” Conant said. “The previous direction of shooting for being a Tier 1 luxury brand is not going to be the same.”

New products in the pipeline include the Acura ZDX crossover, which will be available later this winter, and the wagon version of the TSX, which will arrive next fall. Officials are also said to be hinting at an entry-level model that will compete with the BMW 1-Series and the Audi A1 (think of it as the revival of the RSX).

At a recent, dealership meeting, executives told dealers that they will introduces a new product every year, however, there is a delay in the pipeline.

Sly Raskal

iTrader: (1)

Took them long enough to figure that out.

Moog-Type-S

...other than the fanboys, everyone here has been screaming about this for quite some time now. Acura =

NSX: NOPE
V8: NOPE
RWD: NOPE
Tier one: NOPE
Acura as a merger of BMW and Audi–something between high technology and high performance: DON"T HOLD YOUR BREATH.

It's clear Acura is in spin control....nobody has a vision, and is able to lead this company down a clear path. It's pretty sad.

biker

They should have just come out and said it: we want to be the realible Audi.

Everyone understands that!

mrdeeno

Fixed.

biker

^ they already have that covered.

SpicyMikey

Actually I'm glad Ito came out and said this. I think I like this guy. All that talk about Tier 1 and being like Maybach, etc. Did anyone really think they would do that? This may finally be the beginning of someone grabbing the steering wheel and setting steady direction. But then again, I feel like I've seen this movie already. Probably have to wait about 2 more years when they introduce the new RL, and another couple products, to see if someone really has a vision for the brand, and, what that vision is.

CarbonGray Earl

Being "a merger of BMW and Audi–something between high technology and high performance" isn't solving the problem of "having a certain level of confusion".

They should just pick performance....but they won't.

dom

(Cj)

+1

dom

Stole this from an RL thread.

http://www.autoweek.com/article/2009...NEWS/911029995

Much of the same news.

fsttyms1

More typical honda crap, say something then some time down the road not follow thru with it. Acura will never be seriously looked at as a competitor if they them selves continue to flip flop around and cant get things straight. I for one have lost most all faith in them.

CarbonGray Earl

I think this new CEO doesn't take Acura all that seriously as a seperate luxury brand either. The recession just about killed it changing from 'Honda Premium' to 'Tier 1'.

Can't say I disagree though. I kinda like where he's taking honda as a whole.

But what the hell is sensible luxury anyways?

neuronbob

Ito is stating the obvious. Despite my using that particular smiley, I think this is a good thing. It sounds great that Honda is finally admitting that Acura doesn't know where it belongs in the automotive marketplace. Admitting a problem is the first step toward a solution.

Here's the problem as I see it. The very presence of Acura goes against what Honda stands for at this time--dependable, environmentally friendly, reasonably priced mass transportation. As a result, there IS confusion about where Acura belongs....at Honda HQ itself. That confusion manifests itself in the product line. They have honestly half-done the whole luxury car thing. No matter what people here say, right now "luxury" means excess....V8 options, RWD, flashy styling.

Those are things that Honda has never really fully embraced, even though they were the first Japanese "luxury" carmaker. I think the first decision that Honda has to make, as a result, is whether they want to keep Acura going at all. If so, they need to create and MARKET their vision of an "alternate luxury". V6s as powerful as V8s, SH-AWD as good as RWD, hybrid as an expression of future powertrains, organic external style as an expression of the above....and keeping those world-class luxury interiors. I WISH I had an Acura interior in my Caddy.

OK, those are just my random ramblings, nowhere near as composed as Colin's generally excellent thoughts....now back to reality...

I'd be very interested in what Colin has to say about the slow/delayed pipeline of products discussed in the article from the dealer standpoint as he's provided us excellent insight recently in other threads.

(Cj)

I would guess something like Volvo... and we see how great their doing...

LuvMyTSX

They keep flip-flopping, confusing both customers and themselves. Basically, they have no idea what they are doing, what they want to be, or where they are going. That inspires a lot of confidence....

sr4dt

I agree with the above. It is definitely a step in right direction. HMC might seem like flip floping its planning within a short interval of time, however the recession has impacted the automotive landscape worldwide and this seems like they are re-planning for a more cost [business] effective approach. Hopefully this planning is being backed up by information from bean counters and is not based on a whimsical from the new CEO.

With not achieving Tier1, they may lose some customer who buy vehicles based on value, but as long as Acura continues its theme of Luxury for less it will thrieve on. Now for some of us who moved on from a Civic to Accord to TL to RL this could mean that we may not have just run out of Honda vehicles which excite us.

Yumcha

@ news...

(Cj)

Acura hasn't been thriving with it's "luxury for less" theme. It's sales are down further than higher tiered (and higher priced) luxury brands such as Lexus, BMW, Mercedes and Audi.

charliemike

I think that when people pay $40k (328i) for a car with features they could likely get for $30k (TSX) then they are buying intangibles. Be it styling, perception, etc ...

Acura does not really have cars people lust after or aspire to own right now.

I lusted after a CL Type-S in 2001.

Just don't really have that right now.

Costco

The ONLY thing I'm surprised about is the timing of this. Nobody was holding their breath.... at least I sure as hell wasn't. I'm sure Maybach was pissing their pants right up until this announcement though

fsttyms1

Thats just it. Shit or get off the pot. At the rate they are going honda should just offer the acura line as different versions of honda. Thats all they are is honda with options. They NEED to distinguish them selves in the industry. They arent doing that. Its time they step OUTSIDE the box (the one they are used to) and make the leap to Tier 1. Start making distinctive cars that people want, things magazines report about, options for the consumer. Leave the stuff they are doing at honda to honda and make acura a division of their own with stuff that differentiates themselves.

dtc5

My god! What is Acura going to do now!? Now they really lost all of the enthusiast market...all of 345 cars extra cars they could of sold!

On a serious note though, I don’t understand why you need V8, RWD to be a luxury brand. Why couldn’t a company that excels in known reliability, comfort, safety and offers just enough spirited performance be a luxury brand. Perhaps you need halo car, V8, V10 or a $80,000 flagship sedan to be tier 1 but now Honda admits this is not something they are pursuing anymore and I hope it stays that way.

If you look at the other side, I think this is a good change of direction for Honda. We already have bunch of car companies striving to be numero uno in the luxury market by competing in the HP wars. Why not a luxury brand that follows what the Honda image? As neuronbob said it, provide a “dependable, environmentally friendly, reasonably priced” luxury brand. Kind of like Toyota did with Lexus by introducing the HS into the lineup. Focus on efficiency, lightweight and forget about V10 or V8 engines. Now that is forward thinking IMO.

Moog-Type-S

...because when wealthy people buy a luxury car, they are looking for reliability, fantastic MPG, and moderate power & driving experience.

Nobody wants enormous amounts of power and handling, and cutting edge technology and over-the-top features, brand prestige, exclusivity....not to mention nobody cares about their image either.

This is why all people strive to make it to the "big time" and own a Kia, not a Mercedes Benz, BMW, etc.

Yumcha

So much for my that there'd be an MDX Type R or something...



Oh well...too late. I gave my $$$ to another manufacturer already.

knavinusa

It seems they've been guided into thinking that big and luxurious means it has to be environmentally unfriendly. Why can't they have both? Audi's new 3.0T is both quick, luxurious and offers good gas mileage. Same deal with BMW's twin-turbo 3.0. It looks like Acura is just shoehorning engines from their other models, tuning it slightly for each car, and selling it in different market segments. The Germans share engines throughout their product line too (and it makes perfect business sense), but they're able to make each car feel completely different. On the other hand, the SH-AWD TL pretty much makes it pointless for anyone to get the RL since they're almost the same car with the exception of interior styling, and the V6 TSX is barely different from the FWD TL.

I bought an Acura because it offered everything in one package that none of the other competitors could. The styling was attractive, the performance was impressive, and the interior was packed full of features for a bargain price. Nowadays, the styling is bland and borders on ugly, and the cars no longer perform significantly better than the competition. The pricing is somewhat questionable as well; I'm not sure if I would want to spend over $50k ($40k USD) for the fully-equipped TL when for that price I could get an Audi S4 or a BMW 335i which is arguably much more fun to drive.

What happened to the days when Honda and Acura could build cars that beat the competition using their own, unconventional engineering?

dom

Clearly they've lost a lot more than just the enthusiast sale. Sure some of that was due to the economy but not all of it.