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Old 10-06-2003, 12:48 PM
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You know, I was thinking about this today. Acura seems to have a car that is targeted at every segment, but falls to the segment below it. They want the TSX to go after the 3 series, the TL to go after the 5 series, and the RL to go after the 7 series. In reality, the TSX goes after run of the mill cars (maximas, camrys, etc.), the TL goes after the 3 series, and the RL goes after the 5 series. None do a very good job, even when dropped to the category below its target. Acura's problem lies in its brand recognition. Too many bits from Hondas keep it too closely linked. The new TL is a HUGE step in the right direction.....a great car. The TSX needs to go (sorry), and the TL needs to be aligned against the 3 series. The RL needs to be redesigned to fight the 5 series, and they need something reminiscient of the Legend to go against the big boys. If you put a 400 hp AWD 35mpg hybrid in that arena, IT WOULD DEF. BEAT A rwd/v8. What they should do is put VTM-4 on the TL and new RL, and then the hybrid on the big boy. The NSX wouldn't be damaged by a hybrid power train eiter. And I like their styling direction.....sharp, simple, crisp, elegant. They just need to rethink who they are going after.
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Old 10-06-2003, 01:37 PM
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Re: Re: Acura considering V8, 400HP Hybrids, AWD, Superchargers/Turbochargers, but not RWD

Originally posted by heyitsme
these critics sounds like a bunch of idiots. i bet they believe the es330 is rwd with that example made and hows a 400hp awd hybrid not good enough but a rwd v8 is, retarded. i dont see how limiting sales of the current rsx is good, should wait till the next model and just move it upscale as a tsx coupe.


The next generation RSX should be based on the TSX with the 2.4liter 200hp as the base engine (no more 2.0 160hp in a "luxury" coupe, that's just silly).
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Old 10-06-2003, 01:38 PM
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es300 is overrated IMO...i'd take a Tl over that anyday...I'm not talking out of my ass here, i just had a 2003 es300 loaner for the weekend b.c the family gs300 was in the shop ...the es300 is nice, but doesnt do a thing 4 me
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Old 10-06-2003, 01:49 PM
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Originally posted by TypeSAddict
You know, I was thinking about this today. Acura seems to have a car that is targeted at every segment, but falls to the segment below it. They want the TSX to go after the 3 series, the TL to go after the 5 series, and the RL to go after the 7 series. In reality, the TSX goes after run of the mill cars (maximas, camrys, etc.), the TL goes after the 3 series, and the RL goes after the 5 series. None do a very good job, even when dropped to the category below its target. Acura's problem lies in its brand recognition. Too many bits from Hondas keep it too closely linked. The new TL is a HUGE step in the right direction.....a great car. The TSX needs to go (sorry), and the TL needs to be aligned against the 3 series. The RL needs to be redesigned to fight the 5 series, and they need something reminiscient of the Legend to go against the big boys. If you put a 400 hp AWD 35mpg hybrid in that arena, IT WOULD DEF. BEAT A rwd/v8. What they should do is put VTM-4 on the TL and new RL, and then the hybrid on the big boy. The NSX wouldn't be damaged by a hybrid power train eiter. And I like their styling direction.....sharp, simple, crisp, elegant. They just need to rethink who they are going after.
I disagree with you nearly 100% here. The TL may not have competed with the 5 series in the past but the new one will be an awful lot closer. I don't think Acura really intended for the previous gen TL to compete with the 5 series, it was marketed against the 3 series but failed because it's too big. That's not to say it failed as a car. The TL was one of the best selling luxury sedans on the market (second only to the 3 series I think.)

The TSX competes with the 3 series nicely. This critically acclaimed car has made a lot of advances for Acura and is selling better than even they hoped. It doesn't have to go. Especially when it's being compared with the 9-3, A4, C240, 3 series, etc. There aren't too many reviews comparing it to a Maxima or Camry.

Acura did hamstring themselves with the RL. It's a fantastic car for the price but is horribly underpowered to compete with the 7 series and A8. The next gen should be much better.

I will agree with you on the hybrid NSX...that car would rock the block!
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Old 10-06-2003, 01:50 PM
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Re: Acura considering V8, 400HP Hybrids, AWD, Superchargers/Turbochargers, but not RWD

Originally posted by gavriil

Critics argue that it will compete against vehicles such as the Nissan Maxima and Toyota Camry, rather than, say, the Lexus ES 300.
Stupid fucks, the ES300-330 IS a V6 with FWD.
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Old 10-06-2003, 01:59 PM
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Originally posted by AcuraFan
I disagree with you nearly 100% here. The TL may not have competed with the 5 series in the past but the new one will be an awful lot closer. I don't think Acura really intended for the previous gen TL to compete with the 5 series, it was marketed against the 3 series but failed because it's too big. That's not to say it failed as a car. The TL was one of the best selling luxury sedans on the market (second only to the 3 series I think.)

The TSX competes with the 3 series nicely. This critically acclaimed car has made a lot of advances for Acura and is selling better than even they hoped. It doesn't have to go. Especially when it's being compared with the 9-3, A4, C240, 3 series, etc. There aren't too many reviews comparing it to a Maxima or Camry.

Acura did hamstring themselves with the RL. It's a fantastic car for the price but is horribly underpowered to compete with the 7 series and A8. The next gen should be much better.

I will agree with you on the hybrid NSX...that car would rock the block!
I would disagree with your statement...

Here is why:
Acura might say the TSX competes with the 3 and the TL competes with the 5, but be realistic here, it doesn't directly. To compete in that market, they need to focus on RWD, like every other competitor in the market has done. Yes, Audi uses quattro, but thats an exception. Cadillac and Infiniti, have seen the light and realized what needs to be done to compete. Acura, on the other hand is still producing FWD cars. IMO the TL is still a competitor the the Maxima, I35, ES330, etc. Once they do something with the drive configuration, it will be a TRUE contender.
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Old 10-06-2003, 02:09 PM
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Originally posted by Maximized
I would disagree with your statement...

Here is why:
Acura might say the TSX competes with the 3 and the TL competes with the 5, but be realistic here, it doesn't directly. To compete in that market, they need to focus on RWD, like every other competitor in the market has done. Yes, Audi uses quattro, but thats an exception. Cadillac and Infiniti, have seen the light and realized what needs to be done to compete. Acura, on the other hand is still producing FWD cars. IMO the TL is still a competitor the the Maxima, I35, ES330, etc. Once they do something with the drive configuration, it will be a TRUE contender.
I think the TSX takes sales away from the 3 series...that's how Acura is "competing". They aren't interested in the skidpad or how you can "kick the tale out", they're interested in sales.

However, Acura isn't the only one who says the TSX can compete. I haven't seen a single review that says it just can't because it's FWD. Some reviews say "it's no BMW" but they aren't saying it can't compete. But I have seen a fair amount of reviewers who would select a TSX over a 3 series for one reason or another. Heck, go ask the guys who DID by a TSX (such as acura-tsx.com/forums)...many of them cross shopped the TSX with the 3 series and selected the TSX, if that's not competing, I don't know what is.
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Old 10-06-2003, 02:26 PM
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Originally posted by TypeSAddict
You know, I was thinking about this today. Acura seems to have a car that is targeted at every segment, but falls to the segment below it. They want the TSX to go after the 3 series, the TL to go after the 5 series, and the RL to go after the 7 series. In reality, the TSX goes after run of the mill cars (maximas, camrys, etc.), the TL goes after the 3 series, and the RL goes after the 5 series. None do a very good job, even when dropped to the category below its target. Acura's problem lies in its brand recognition. Too many bits from Hondas keep it too closely linked. The new TL is a HUGE step in the right direction.....a great car. The TSX needs to go (sorry), and the TL needs to be aligned against the 3 series. The RL needs to be redesigned to fight the 5 series, and they need something reminiscient of the Legend to go against the big boys. If you put a 400 hp AWD 35mpg hybrid in that arena, IT WOULD DEF. BEAT A rwd/v8. What they should do is put VTM-4 on the TL and new RL, and then the hybrid on the big boy. The NSX wouldn't be damaged by a hybrid power train eiter. And I like their styling direction.....sharp, simple, crisp, elegant. They just need to rethink who they are going after.
I disagree about the TSX needing to go. The TSX is what goes against the 325 right now. And it's not a bad matchup. What needs to go is the RSX and leaving the TSX as the entry model in the lineup. Dont forget that the TSX will get AWD next year.
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Old 10-06-2003, 02:33 PM
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Originally posted by gavriil
I disagree about the TSX needing to go. The TSX is what goes against the 325 right now. And it's not a bad matchup. What needs to go is the RSX and leaving the TSX as the entry model in the lineup. Dont forget that the TSX will get AWD next year.
You have confirmation on the AWD?
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Old 10-06-2003, 02:38 PM
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the only prob i see with the tsx is there isn't a more powerful model. thats pretty much all that is holding me back. according to acura nothing is going against the 330i now.
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Old 10-06-2003, 02:40 PM
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I'm kinda split on this article. On one hand I think that the direction acura is taking right now is good as far as sales are concerned. Offering the most standard features at a competitive price is what I think will be Acura's key selling point. That IMO is why I think most TSX owners chose their car over the Audi, BMW, and Infiniti. I have no doubts that the new TL will yeild the same result.

However I hope that if they decide to release a Hybrid luxury car, that they market it right. I've read that Nissan & Toyota are working togther on hybrid technology. If Nissan releases a hybrid vehicle, I can see it now....."Most powerful Hybrid in its class" or "Fastest Hybrid in its class"... something like that. But Nissan could get away with that because nearly all of their advertisements are performance related.

Only time will tell though. Honestly I don't think that Acura needs a V8 to be competitive from a sales standpoint. If anything it would be to improve their image.
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Old 10-06-2003, 02:42 PM
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Originally posted by heyitsme
the only prob i see with the tsx is there isn't a more powerful model. thats pretty much all that is holding me back. according to acura nothing is going against the 330i now.
True that.

I think if there was one thing that's holding Acura back right now it's lack of engine options.
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Old 10-06-2003, 02:43 PM
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Originally posted by AcuraFan
I think the TSX takes sales away from the 3 series...that's how Acura is "competing". They aren't interested in the skidpad or how you can "kick the tale out", they're interested in sales.

However, Acura isn't the only one who says the TSX can compete. I haven't seen a single review that says it just can't because it's FWD. Some reviews say "it's no BMW" but they aren't saying it can't compete. But I have seen a fair amount of reviewers who would select a TSX over a 3 series for one reason or another. Heck, go ask the guys who DID by a TSX (such as acura-tsx.com/forums)...many of them cross shopped the TSX with the 3 series and selected the TSX, if that's not competing, I don't know what is.
Well if Acura was truely interested in sales, they should have followed the market. Take a look at 3 series sales and compare it to the TSX AND TL. The reason people are buying something like the TL/TSX is because its well equipped and undercuts the competition, in terms of price. It's certainly a great bargain. To compete against the Germans/Lexus, you need to have RWD/AWD. A great example of this is Cadillac with the CTS and Infiniti with the G35.
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Old 10-06-2003, 02:58 PM
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Acura Hybrid in the works?

Found this article on autoweek.com. Seems hike Honda is pondering a high performance hybrid in the near future (300 hp gas + 100 hp elect). Could it be the 2005 RL?

Acura works to move product mix upscale; V-8 power essential, critics say


By KATHY JACKSON | Automotive News

SEATTLE -- Tom Elliott is counting on the new Acura TL to help bring the division out of a sales slump.

Of the six largest luxury marques in this country, Acura was the only one to suffer a sales decline through the first nine months of the year. The TL, which goes on sale today, Oct. 6, can help.

Elliott, who is executive vice president of auto operations for American Honda Motor Co. Inc., predicts that the TL will help Acura set a sales record this year of 180,000 units. That would be an achievement. Acura's sales dropped 2.9 percent in 2002 and were down 2.2 percent through Sept. 30 of this year.

Some critics say Acura will never be a true luxury marque until it offers upscale rear-wheel-drive vehicles and V-8 engines. The TL runs counter to this theory - it's a front-wheel-drive car powered by a V-6 engine.

Critics argue that it will compete against vehicles such as the Nissan Maxima and Toyota Camry, rather than, say, the Lexus ES 300.

But Elliott says the market appeal of a V-8 is overblown. "I wouldn't say we won't do a V-8," he says. "It is one of the possibilities." But he admits that hybrids are the most likely route.

Elliott says Acura will decide how to increase power on each product in the next six months. "We're really close to making a decision on a hybrid," he says. Such a vehicle could be powered by a 300-hp engine in the front plus a 100-hp electric motor in back.

He also says the company is considering all-wheel drive, superchargers and turbochargers, but not rwd. But critics say a V-8 is essential.

Consider the slow-selling RL sedan, Acura's $50,000 flagship. RL sales were 7,557 through the end of September, down 27.8 percent from the same period in 2002.

The vehicle's 225-hp V-6 engine does not impress consumers, says Jim Wangers, president of Automotive Marketing Consultants Inc. in Vista, Calif.

"It's not so much the power but the image," Wangers says. "The price of entry in the luxury segment is a V-8, not a hybrid or a V-6. Hybrids are not accepted mainstream cars yet."

Says Daniel Gorrell, vice president for automotive of Strategic Vision in Tustin, Calif. "If they're going to be in competition with Mercedes and BMW, they need a flagship, and RL is not that. I don't see them being a serious luxury top-rung contender."

Undeterred by critics, Elliott is gradually moving Acura's product mix upscale. For example, the company is reducing production of its entry-level RSX, which debuted in 2001.

"The RSX is for young people, but we will limit the sales because we want to bring the brand up," Elliott says. "What we will do next is fix the RL. We want it to go upscale. It needs more power, more style. It will be totally redone, and part of that will be more power."

For the moment, Acura dealers are defending the company's product lineup. "There's no question that the TL is upscale and doesn't compete against Hondas," says Jerry Britain, general manager of Downey Acura in Downey, Calif.

Britain also doesn't think V-8s are necessary, saying that the Acura V-6s are reliable, reasonably priced and handle well.

"The other luxury brands are dramatically more expensive, and they don't really have more creature comforts," he says. "The only problem I have is that I don't have enough vehicles."

http://www.autoweek.com/cat_content...._code=08282586
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Old 10-06-2003, 03:11 PM
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Thanks for passing along the article. I however noticed several questionable comments made by the author. It states that V8 powered RWD cars are necessary to compete in the Luxury car market and then states the TL is the opposite of this and compares more to a Maxima than an ES300. WTF!? Does this person know anything about the ES, obviously not. I agree that for the RL, Acura should at least have a 3.5 liter V6 with around 300hp and AWD. Nothing less would get buyers to look at an Acura automobile in the 40-50k price range. Volvo seems to do okay without a V8 or RWD and I think Acura can find its niche as well. I kinda like that Acura is different, but feel that AWD would be a nice addition.
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Old 10-06-2003, 03:13 PM
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How hard would it be for Honda to build a V8? They have eviormental concerns do they? WHY, noone else does so WTF do they bother?
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Old 10-06-2003, 04:11 PM
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The new 270hp TL looks like a winner, but I think all of Acura's other models could use a power boost or at least a more powerful optional engine. For example I think the TSX looks great and is a great value when compared to the 3 series but a small, powerful V6 option will make it a real contender. Also the base 160hp RSX does not belong in the Acura lineup. The 200hp engine should be the base and a hotter 220hp version should be the type-S. The Japanese market type-R already pumps out 220hp so this is not pie in the sky dreaming. Finally, I think a small V8 is a must. When even Bonnevilles will soon be having V8's again I think Acura is going to have to spend the money to develop a V8 for the RL. Like someone said earlier, it will also boost their image.
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Old 10-06-2003, 04:53 PM
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Originally posted by domn
How hard would it be for Honda to build a V8? They have eviormental concerns do they? WHY, noone else does so WTF do they bother?
One of the reasons I love Acura is because they are more focused on environmental concerns than many other manufacturers. I couldn't be more pleased about Acura's intent on being the first (?) luxury manufacturer to make hybrid vehicles. I, for one, will be among the first to jump on the hybrid/alternative energy vehicles when the jump is made from the smallest platforms being offered in hybrid (ie: civic) to a regular-sized platform vehicle (ie: TL size).
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Old 10-06-2003, 05:02 PM
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Gabriel......are you sure on the AWD bit? I know the Euro Accord has AWD, but does honda have the balls to bring it stateside?
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Old 10-06-2003, 05:10 PM
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Originally posted by NSWAGAR
.....I couldn't be more pleased about Acura's intent on being the first (?) luxury manufacturer to make hybrid vehicles.....
I think Lexus will beat them to it (hybrid RX330).
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Old 10-06-2003, 05:14 PM
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Originally posted by ClutchPerformer
I think Lexus will beat them to it (hybrid RX330).
Ahh yes...I forgot about that one...is there any info on this yet? If so, links???
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Old 10-06-2003, 05:25 PM
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Old 10-06-2003, 05:26 PM
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Originally posted by Habiib

I've read that Nissan & Toyota are working togther on hybrid technology.
What I have read is that Nissan will be buying hybrid technology from Toyota for the short term future. Which is very interesting. Nissan admits they are behind, but they find other ways to deliver. Good for them. In the end the customer will get a good product.


Originally posted by Habiib


Honestly I don't think that Acura needs a V8 to be competitive from a sales standpoint. If anything it would be to improve their image.
I totally agree.

Proof of why the above is correct?

Audi.

No one on this planet doubts that Audis are luxury cars. Yet, there is an A4 with one could buy 2 years ago with FWD and a 1.8 liter 4 cylinder 150HP engine (currently at 170HP). NEVER have I heard, that that's hurting them as a brand. Let alone the fact that I never heard of the A4 being challenged as a luxury offering from anyone. No matter how stuck up, BMW-lover the person was.

So what is needed is a great car overall. Balance. Great interior, reliability, classy styling in and out that does not fade in time. But FOR THE LOVE OF GOD dont make Acuras resemble Hondas just like Audis dont resemble VWs.
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Old 10-06-2003, 05:37 PM
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Originally posted by ClutchPerformer
Certainly
Hrm...interesting stuff...maybe my next vehicle?! Strangely, the new RX330 was one of the competing vehicles in my lineup...the new TL appears to have won, but a testdrive on Friday will tell...
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Old 10-06-2003, 05:39 PM
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this is such a great forum, its really constructive

i think if they do a 400hp gas electric hybrid no one would complain about rwd or no v8, even marketing guru's would be happy
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Old 10-06-2003, 05:41 PM
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Originally posted by TypeSAddict
Gabriel......are you sure on the AWD bit? I know the Euro Accord has AWD, but does honda have the balls to bring it stateside?
Not sure but there were strong and realiable rumors about it a few weeks ago. I believe it. It makes sense, plus I am convinced that AWD is Acura's direction anyway. If they're gonna go hybrid, it's inevitable (and I am not saying that the TSX will be introduced as an AWD vehicle only when it's introduced as a hybrid vehicle).

It also makes sense from the competition's standpoint. Acura empasizes that, if you're gonna be looking at the 325i, look at our TSX as well. Well the 325 comes with an AWD option (325xi).

Makes sense overall.
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Old 10-07-2003, 09:58 AM
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Well, speaking from the point of view of someone who went from an Acura (which was faster) to an Audi A4 (which was slower) I have a few comments on this issue.

First, I agree with Maximized and TypeSAddict. After getting into an accident and totalling my Audi S4, I needed to get a cheaper car that was fast. Going from the Audi to the CLS was a little bit of a culture shock. I really felt like I was going from a true luxury sedan to a glorified accord. Now, the engine was spectacular as was the transmission, but pride of ownign a true luxury car was not that. The little things seemed to be missing.

Wanting to dump my CLS, I was looking for a sports sedan (as I needed teh extra doors). I glanced at the TSX but felt that it did not exude the luxury look that other brands seem to have mastered. It looked again like a re-badged accord. The interior is nice, but IMO not really that different than an Accord. What was worse, the TSX was FWD. Having driven a quattro before, I was spoiled by having the fun of rwd with fwd as needed.

It was nowhere near the Audi, the Lexus, the BMW in terms of competing for my business. This is coming from a hardcore Honda fan too (owned 3 hondas and one Acura).

Add to that the glorified honda sales treatment, and I went with the Audi. After one month, I love my Audi A4 much more than any of my previous Honda/Acuras. Pride of ownership is a hard thing to engender in cars.
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Old 10-08-2003, 07:52 PM
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what is SACD??? I've never heard of it, but I do have some DVD-As..........and they sound awesome
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Old 10-08-2003, 08:12 PM
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Originally posted by rb6teg
what is SACD??? I've never heard of it, but I do have some DVD-As..........and they sound awesome
It is now the defacto standard for high resolution audio. It's backed by Sony, Philips, Warner Music, etc. It looks like DVD-A is just about done. Best Buy is clearing out all of their DVD-A disks and making room for SACD titles. I was just there a few minutes ago...

If you want some more info check out Sony's site: http://www.sonymusic.com/sacd/

The best thing about SACD is that they make hybrid disks that are backwards compatible with regular CD players. However you need an SACD player to read the high resolution layer.
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Old 10-08-2003, 09:01 PM
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Dan Martin you are hilarious. You are already declaring the winner and the "defacto standard" when less than 1/10th of 1% of the American public has even HEARD of either format?

Come on man. The public doesn't read audiophile magazines, and the public doesn't like "new formats" to begin with. My Best Buy has more DVD-A discs than SACD, but does that mean DVD-A is now the "defacto standard" when I can't find a single person within 10 miles that owns a SACD or DVD-A player? I bet you TL sales ALONE will DOUBLE the amount of "high-end" players in the US! LOL

DVD-A is the only UNIVERSALLY supported high-end audio format remember. SACD is proprietary, and companies must be royalties to Sony/Philips, not to mention DVD-A discs can be played in 5.1 on DVD players, which number in the tens of millions in this country, and Honda of America has chosen DVD-A. To choose a winner at this stage is absolutely ludicrous, no offense intended. I mean, the INITIAL specifications of either format was just released in 1999, and "Format War" articles just started to arise last year! Not to mention, of course, how many average Joe's even KNOW about either format. It's the average Joe that makes a format a success, so naturally you can't declare a winner until it penetrates the average Joe's thinking. Neither format even registers with the public yet.

The format winner will clearly be the most universal one, the one that has the largest installed base of players, and the one that penetrates the largest percentage of the automobile market. Right not, DVD-A is clearly the one to watch with a head start both in installed base and the automobile market. Now they just need to sign-up more record companies to release titles--that's the EASY part.
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Old 10-08-2003, 09:32 PM
  #111  
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Originally posted by ctwickman
Dan Martin you are hilarious. You are already declaring the winner and the "defacto standard" when less than 1/10th of 1% of the American public has even HEARD of either format?

Come on man. Just because some magazine article likes one format over the other, or has some opinion, or your local Best Buy is clearing DVD-A discs, means shite. My Best Buy has more DVD-A discs than SACD, but does that mean DVD-A is now the "defacto standard?"

DVD-A is the only UNIVERSALLY supported high-end audio format. SACD is proprietary, and companies must be royalties to Sony/Philips, not to mention DVD-A discs can be played in 5.1 on DVD players, which number in the tens of millions in this country, and Honda of America has chosen DVD-A. To choose a winner at this stage is absolutely ludicrous, no offense intended.
It's not like I'm basing this off of one magazine review or what one store is doing, it is an industry trend to back SACD vs DVD-A.
So far Sony, Philips, RIAA(!), Warner, Universal Music Group, BMG, and many others are pushing the SACD format. This move is not going to be made overnight or even in the next year but more and more titles will be brought out on SACD and less will be released on DVD-A.

DVD-A is not playable in all DVD players. In fact if you bought your DVD player pre 2001 chances are it is not compatible. The biggest problem with DVD-A is that you can't take a DVD-A disk and play it in anything but a DVD-A compatible drive. Sure DVD players are very common place but how many CD players do you think are out there? In US in 2002 there were $12 Billion in CD sales (not including singles) vs $236 Million in DVD Video sales (including units sold to rental outlets). This might not be apples to apples but you can see that the CD market is a much bigger market.

You would also be suprised to know that many people that own a DVD player don't have it hooked up to their stereo. Most just go straight into the TV. I doubt that people are going to want to listen to a high resolution format through some $10 speakers that came with their tv.

It just makes way more sense for a record company to make the transistion into a high resolution format that is compatible with what most people already own. I'm not going to equip my car with an SACD player just yet but it's nice to know that an SACD disk that plays in high resolution on my home system is still playable in my car. What about people who use diskman's? I can't see them buying a portable dvd player anytime soon.
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Old 10-08-2003, 11:09 PM
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Originally posted by Dan Martin
It's not like I'm basing this off of one magazine review or what one store is doing, it is an industry trend to back SACD vs DVD-A.
<snip>
And where is the "proof" of this industry trend? If you aren't "basing this off one magazine review or what one store is doing", then what *are* you basing it off? Back it up, bud.

I'm surprised you are touting SACD as superior due to its backwards compatability with CDs?! Get your facts straight (not just you either - most people on this board seem to be misinformed here) - Hybrid DVD-A discs have always been part of the plan since it is a fact that CD is the most successful format ever. Hybrid discs would be available at present, were it not for the 2% of cd players that cannot play them due to their increased thickness (kind of an oversimplification). Hybrid discs will be released shortly as the company behind making them has developed a new material to make the discs with which decreases the disc's thickness, giving DVD-A 100% compatability with existing CD players for playback of 2-channel CD format audio.

And speaking of backward compatability, the new SACD II format (soon to be released new standard for SACD) does exactly the opposite of the compatability issues you are bragging about - they are *not* compatible with current SACD players! This is because they have extended video playback features (among other things like better copyright protection)...to make them more competitive with DVD-A...imagine that. Truth be known, the video integration may not be much of an advantage since part of the problem with limited DVD-A titles is the large amount of red-tape due to copyright hassles for the desired video portions of the disc.

Ctwickman's comment that the sale of new TLs with the standard DVD-A system will double the amount of "high-end" (DVD-A/SACD)players in the USA is probably not far from accurate! Point being, hardly a soul in the general public has even heard of DVD-A/SACD formats, much less listened to one or both formats. SACD and DVD-A are both so much in their initial state of development (and especially marketing) that it is impossible to make an intelligent statement about either ones longevity or market domination.
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Old 10-08-2003, 11:30 PM
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Well said NSWAGAR.
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Old 10-08-2003, 11:39 PM
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BTW I predict DVD-A will be the winner overall, in the long run, for two reasons:

1) No need to pay Sony royalties to release music on it. Sony ALWAYS screws themselves because their format costs MONEY to support, AND their format always requires new players. IOW, it's proprietary.

2) It has the words "DVD" in it, which registers with consumers. You must dumb yourself down to average Joe--to Joe, "DVD" means "higher quality" as proven by the video phenom. To Joe, "DVD Audio" must be the best audio out there.

But in all, whatever format penetrates most of the auto market will be the winner, bar none. I predict Lexus will come out with a DVD-A system next year followed by other manufacturers to compete with Acura, and you'll see SACD's proprietary format be more and more ignored as time goes buy since it is not universally adopted by over 220 electronics manufacturers. Heck, my brother-in-law just bought a Toyota Sequioa SUV and it has, guess what, DVD Audio in it!
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Old 10-08-2003, 11:46 PM
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How many vehicle manufacturers have announced or are currently producing DVD-A systems in their vehicles?

A side note - I haven't heard of any manufacturers planning on SACD systems in vehicles...correct me if I'm wrong...
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Old 10-09-2003, 08:36 AM
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Originally posted by NSWAGAR
And where is the "proof" of this industry trend? If you aren't "basing this off one magazine review or what one store is doing", then what *are* you basing it off? Back it up, bud.

I'm surprised you are touting SACD as superior due to its backwards compatability with CDs?! Get your facts straight (not just you either - most people on this board seem to be misinformed here) - Hybrid DVD-A discs have always been part of the plan since it is a fact that CD is the most successful format ever. Hybrid discs would be available at present, were it not for the 2% of cd players that cannot play them due to their increased thickness (kind of an oversimplification). Hybrid discs will be released shortly as the company behind making them has developed a new material to make the discs with which decreases the disc's thickness, giving DVD-A 100% compatability with existing CD players for playback of 2-channel CD format audio.

And speaking of backward compatability, the new SACD II format (soon to be released new standard for SACD) does exactly the opposite of the compatability issues you are bragging about - they are *not* compatible with current SACD players! This is because they have extended video playback features (among other things like better copyright protection)...to make them more competitive with DVD-A...imagine that. Truth be known, the video integration may not be much of an advantage since part of the problem with limited DVD-A titles is the large amount of red-tape due to copyright hassles for the desired video portions of the disc.

Ctwickman's comment that the sale of new TLs with the standard DVD-A system will double the amount of "high-end" (DVD-A/SACD)players in the USA is probably not far from accurate! Point being, hardly a soul in the general public has even heard of DVD-A/SACD formats, much less listened to one or both formats. SACD and DVD-A are both so much in their initial state of development (and especially marketing) that it is impossible to make an intelligent statement about either ones longevity or market domination.
First of all I will back this up when I get home. I can't spend hours at work debating this.

Second you're right that they are working on DVD-A hybrid disks as well but show me how many DVD-A hybrids are available vs. SACD hybrids. I'll save you the research it's 750 SACD to 100 DVD-A (mostly audiophile record label titles).

Thirdly this surely still is in it's infancy. They aren't expecting to have 80% market penetration until 2015! The problem is that they are trying to convince the population that they need a new standard when 99% of the people think there's nothing wrong with CD's.
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Old 10-09-2003, 10:14 AM
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i'll throw in my own 2cents into this one...regardless if SACD or DVD-A (although SACD i've seen a lot more of in Asia), eventually becomes the standard...there wont be any meaningful amount of discs to make it worth buying a player for it for a long time....any application of it in autos is a pure marketing gimmick...kind of like posting up hp figures that you can only get on 100octane gas... in the end when it comes to car sound systems...CD quality is the only thing that matters...by the time any of those two standards start to become the norm or if ever...the car would be obsolete anyways.
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Old 10-09-2003, 04:42 PM
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Originally posted by gilboman
i'll throw in my own 2cents into this one...regardless if SACD or DVD-A (although SACD i've seen a lot more of in Asia), eventually becomes the standard...there wont be any meaningful amount of discs to make it worth buying a player for it for a long time....any application of it in autos is a pure marketing gimmick...kind of like posting up hp figures that you can only get on 100octane gas... in the end when it comes to car sound systems...CD quality is the only thing that matters...by the time any of those two standards start to become the norm or if ever...the car would be obsolete anyways.
Exactly. As I mentioned before, they aren't expecting to have market penetration until 2015! Anyone that thinks because a couple cars have shipped with DVD-A players the record companies are going to start pumping out DVD-A disks is just crazy. This is going to be a very slow transition away from CD's. This is mostly because the average consumer thinks that CD's are just fine and wouldn't pay any more for increased audio quality.

Going back to what ctwickman said, most people will naturally assume that DVD-A is going to sound better than SACD because it has "DVD" in the title which is synonymous with quality in their minds. Surely Acura is exploiting this to associate quality with their sound system. What is interesting is that there are a number of people who don't seem to be overly impressed by the system in the TSX anyways.

It is very premature to offer DVD-A or SACD in cars because there just isn't the infrastructure to support it. This is more of a marketing gimick than a feature. People will want DVD-A or SACD when they can readily buy the latest releases on either of the formats at a price comparable to CD. My point is that the safest bet in high-end audio formats is hybrid SACD because it is most compatible with current players and is most widely supported by the recording industry. The worst case scenario is that your SACD disk won't play in 24bit/192khz mode but you'll still be able to listen to a well mastered CD. This doesn't sound bad to me (pardon the pun)....

Also regarding the comment that SACD has royalties attached to it; Do you think that DVD-A doesn't? It's a $25,000 entry fee plus $0.0375 per disk for DVD. And guess who collects those royalties...Sony and Philips! SACD is actually slightly cheaper than DVD at $0.030 per disk with the same $25,000 entry fee.

Now allow me to dust off my crystal ball and make a prediction.... The RIAA is not going to stop online file trading so instead of wasting money on lawyers they will begin to back the latest breed of high resolution formats which is much harder/costly to pirate. Kazaa/Napster/IRC/whatever will esentially become a radio station and anyone who wants a better recording will have to buy it in the stores. The performance contrast between SACD (or DVD-A) and MP3 is probably enough to get people's attention.
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Old 10-09-2003, 05:17 PM
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high end audio

I think both of the sides (see above) have good and valid points. I got a JVC DVD player that can play DVD-A, and got a sample DVD-A disk to test, along with a Harman kardon 320 AV receiver and a set of home theater Onkyo speakers (SKS-HT500), both of which are sort of entry/slightly mid level equipment.

Maybe it's the music itself, but i couldn't tell any difference in sound quality. again, I don't have a disk in the regular CD format to compare, but i'm suspicious that high quality music may be too difficult for average joe like me to tell. also, some people are also suspicious of stuff like Dolby Prologic for CD music in a home theater speaker setup.

When it comes to cars, with all kinds of noise (and you making a cell phone call) etc., i bet most people can't tell the music quality that much (especially really loud rock or rap). You might be proud to have a DVD-A or ML system, but you'd probably be bitching about the traffic and work stress most of the time.
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Old 10-10-2003, 02:21 AM
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Re: high end audio

Originally posted by TMQ
I think both of the sides (see above) have good and valid points. I got a JVC DVD player that can play DVD-A, and got a sample DVD-A disk to test, along with a Harman kardon 320 AV receiver and a set of home theater Onkyo speakers (SKS-HT500), both of which are sort of entry/slightly mid level equipment.

Maybe it's the music itself, but i couldn't tell any difference in sound quality. again, I don't have a disk in the regular CD format to compare, but i'm suspicious that high quality music may be too difficult for average joe like me to tell. also, some people are also suspicious of stuff like Dolby Prologic for CD music in a home theater speaker setup.

When it comes to cars, with all kinds of noise (and you making a cell phone call) etc., i bet most people can't tell the music quality that much (especially really loud rock or rap). You might be proud to have a DVD-A or ML system, but you'd probably be bitching about the traffic and work stress most of the time.
actually i can..i absolutely love the ML system in Lexus...makes my Harmon Kardon preimum sound like fisher price radio... CD quality is the most important in a car system right now..and the lack of any CD comparisons for the EL makes it really hard to tell if its a decent system or just like the rest of the garbage BOSE systems that are used
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