Yumcha

That being said...I wholeheartedly believe that if Honda actually had a strong vision of what it TRULY wants to do in the upper-tier market, they can do it.

The NSX and S2000 (although not upper-tier lux cars) are two very good examples of them attacking the sports car segment and doing very, very well IMO.

SG81

iTrader: (1)

has acura completely lost it?

mrdeeno

and these are the models they have killed or are planning on killing.

mrdeeno

uh, there is no NSX in the current lineup...only mass appeal SUVs and sedans.

Yumcha

Which makes absolutely no fawking sense.

If I were the master of the universe, I'd get the V8 Mugen Legend Max into production and sell it as an RL Type S or whatever for starters...then, stop being so jack@$$ed about the RWD platform and actually make it available in a TL or TSX.

But...I'm not the master of the universe or He-Man...so, I'll just go back and drool at an Aston Martin.

Black Tire

They need to make a "Halo" car. Not another NSX...but a VW Phaeton...opps wait a min that didn't work either....

Yumcha

You mean the Warthog...?

https://acurazine.com/forums/showthr...hlight=warthog

Moog-Type-S

You tell 'em She Ra!!!!
Aston Martin or nothing!

Yumcha

No you did NOT just call me She-Ra, Waldorf...NO YOU DID NOT.




For starters, I don't even have bahoogas as big as hers.

Sly Raskal

iTrader: (1)

Acura - "We don't know what we're doing, but we're doing something."

observer

I think people are taking Marek's quote out of context. He said he wants Acura to rival Maybach and Bentley in performance and design. He never said he intends Acura to rival Maybach and Bentley in class, which is what most of you are laughing about.

Rivaling Maybach and Bentley in performance and design, in my opinion, a ambitious but realistic goal for the upcoming NSX. Acura won't get rid of its entire current car lineup and start selling $200,000+ cars, and even if they do, people in Maybach and Bentley's class probably won't even take them seriously; that's why Acura won't be close to matching Maybach and Bentley in class. They simply need to create an NSX which can rival these cars for performance (which is doable) and design (which is subjective). Nothing wrong with what that guy said after thinking about it.

Sly Raskal

iTrader: (1)

Trying to rival Maybach or Bentley for the NSX is, plainly put the stupidest idea ever. Why model an uber luxury manufacturer for your top tier sports car when you have Ferrari, Lotus, Lambo, and Porsche just to name a few to rival when it comes to the high end exotic sports car.

The problem with Acura is they don't know what segment they want to go into. Their brand screams affordable luxury with the included accessories and the lackluster set of optional equipment. They are in no way a great sport brand because of their FWD offerings. Their last gen Integra was as sporty as they ever got IMO. The RSX although a replacement for the Integra was a step down in performance if you ask me. I'd take an Integra over an RSX anyday of the week.

Only recently have they shown some inkling of hope with the Turbo K series motor. Drop that into the TSX and make it a TSX-S and you havea great litttle sporty sedan. They did a good job with the TL-S. Except, HELLO, it's FWD? They should have waited a year and dropped in the SH-AWD and it would have been a better car to go up against the A4 and 3-series. As for the MDX, i think the front styling sucks, that grille is fugly and it looks like that is the route they are going with the new TL too. The RL is basically a great bang for your buck luxury car and that's about it. It doesn't scream, "oh wow look at my luxury car" like bimmer and mercs do. Fuck, even Hyundai and Saturn are catching up to Acura in quality and luxury

GreenMonster

I think that the flagship NSX could rival Bentley and Maybach, but it's going to take a lot more work to get the whole brand up to even BMW, Infiniti or Lexus standards...

And even then, they manage to screw those up... The NSX was 15 years old before they discontinued it ?? Acura had 15 years to plan a replacement, but waited till it canceled the current NSX before they even started designing the next gen NSX ? I don't care if they have a design center in California, that isn't going to change the product planning (or lack thereof), and the much to conservative company philosophy. Oh, and the S2k will be 8 y/o this year :shakehead

That pretty much sums it up... Acura is a second-tier luxury brand that people like us buy, until we can afford to more up to the other "real" luxury brands. We see it all the time here.. Members who had an acura move up to a BMW, Lexus or Infiniti...

While I've truely enjoyed my Acura, it's 5 years old, and it's time to start thinking about something else. I'll probably be in a BMW before acura comes out with another coupe... Maybe 5 years from now they'll have something that might interest me But there's nothing in the lineup for me right now...

phile

I'll probably move into an Infiniti once all my bills are settled, and of course, I pay off the CR-V. That EX little ute is looking good...

Mansa24

It depends on what cars you compare from Infiniti, Lexus and BMW. IMO, up until their latest generation entry-level luxury models the 3G TL was the car to beat. The G35 had performance, but lacked luxury. The IS and 3 series were overpriced for what they were. I’m still trying to figure out why someone would buy a previous gen. 3 series. IMO, up until the 335 the 5 series was the only BMW worth buying.

I know the fast and furious fanboys will say, but what about RWD. The bottom line is that most TL drivers don’t really car about RWD. Most just want a sporty luxury car with a nice interior, cool tech, and smooth ride. RWD is the last thing on the list. The only camp that really cares about RWD is car enthusiast. But then I ask, why buy a FWD Acura if RWD is SOOOO important?

As far as mid-level luxury, the RL lacked the style to compete. Anyway, when the next generation Acura sedans come out, just like the 3G TL and Acura SUVs, they will be the benchmark.

Edward'TLS

The main issue is that FWD Acura has hit the horsepower limit for FWD handling, driverability, and comfort capabilities. Sure Honda can drop in a highly-tuned >280hp 3.2L or a >300hp 3.5L into the car without a sweat, but still maintaining excellent handling and driverability is not an easy task. That's why the 3.5L FWD TL-S is not tuned to 300hp, and the ~300hp AWD RL is not FWD. Honda doesn't want its cars to become a flapping NorthStar V8 FWD Cadillac, nor a >300hp FWD track racer that will guarantee to shake every bone loose while sitting in the car.

On the other hand, RWD is the cheapest and a no-brainer solution to a >300hp and high engine torque high-performance vehicle. It is a much cheaper, lighter, and efficient (no AWD gearing loss) way to move up the horsepower ladder. Just remember that the latest RWD G35 is already hitting the 300hp mark, but the FWD TL can't.

Costco

I for one would love to see Acura try and stay with FWD when they come out with a 400+ HP V8 to try and rival Lexus's IS-F. That would be hilarious.

F23A4

TL drivers are one thing but the driving populace to which Mr. Marek has conveyed his pipe dream is something different.

There are plenty of makes that possess the attributes mentioned (nice interior, cool tech and smooth ride). The ES350 (Lexus' direct competitor to the TL) is a terrific example and has sold fairly well. However, that did not preclude Lexus from producing the IS350, GS350/430 and LS.

With a solid entry level brand (Scion), a mainline brand that owns the market (Toyota) and a top flight luxury brand (Lexus), it would make sense for Toyota to jump to the ultraluxury level....seeing as they seem to have dominated most other segments.

So, the idea that Honda would leapfrog the BMW/Lexus/MB/Infiniti-segment to enter the world of ultraluxury when they have yet to market products that can even compete with the higher trim mid-models (550i, GS430, E550, M45 respectively) of those same upscale brands (let alone the halo sedans of those brands) just seems preposterous if not disingenous. (....not saying impossible but, just that it MUST be a long term goal at best.)

Now this begs the question, is there any market for an ultraluxury sedan with FWD (or SH-AWD) and a J-series bored/stroked to 4.0L+ and 400hp+? (rhetorical question)

fsttyms1

KavexTrax

Try this first, https://acurazine.com/forums/showpos...&postcount=137

then we'll talk...

AlterZgo

So many haters - on an ACURA board no less.

I don't think it's preposterous at all that Acura is shooting for the stars. Organizations that want to succeed need to dream and think big, and aiming for Bentley and Maybach is dreaming big. Orgs that think small... stay small.

The key thing people forget is the fact that Honda EASILY has the engineering talent to build cars that can compete with anyone in the world. Honda supplied engines to 6 Formula 1 constructors champions. How many F1 races has a Toyota powered car won? Zero.

When McLaren was looking for an engine for their McLaren F1 supercar, they went to Honda first. After Honda turned them down, McLaren then went to BMW. How about Honda's state of the art outrageous 8-valve per cylinder oval piston NR750 motorcycle?

Consider this - If a crappy mfg like Ford can successfully engineer and sell cars like Aston Martins and Ford GTs, don't you think Honda easily has the capability to build cars on par with Maybach and Bentley?

With all that said, as many of you are, I am extremely disappointed in Honda/Acura. Despite all their engineering know-how and talent, they continue to churn out well built appliances instead of the fantastic driving machines they are easily capable of building.

So, I for one am glad that someone in Acura is shooting for the stars. Because after seeing the 2008 Accords on the street, I'm happy someone in the company realizes they need a new, bolder direction.

SupaRookie

That's just ludicrous! Maybe it will happen one of these days. Hopefully I'll still be alive.

Ken1997TL

Acura could EASILY do this. Its always been a matter of willpower on the part of top management.

Will it be easy? No. It will be a dramatic jump upwards. And a jump that the current Acura infrastructure (dealerships especially) is not ready to do.

I propose that Honda make Acura their premium brand. $30,000 to $50,000 range. And a third brand that is truly dedicated to luxury be created, one that can give owners the exclusivity and personal attention that goes along with cars that sell at the price of a Maybach and Bentley.

Designing the cars is the easiest step, creating everything else from scratch is going to require a significant shift in policy.

GreenMonster

We're not haters, we're just being realistic. Honda/Acura have shown in the past that they are unwilling to make the leap of faith that other car companies have. Rumors of Hyundai coming out w/ a rwd V8 coupe show how that company is serious about upgrading their brand to compete with the offerings of other luxury companies. With Acura, they add some more technogadgets, raise the MSRP, and claim they have "upscaled" the brand

I think it's a matter of being able to talk the talk and walk the walk...

Acura has said it wants to be a "sporty" brand, but without a coupe or rwd or v8 in the lineup, they've proven that they can't walk the walk...

ACURA put up or shut up !! If you want to rival Bentley and Maybach, you had better start offering products that reflect that additude

mrdeeno

This reminds me of an argument I had with this redneck dude about American cars...

He kept on saying, "American car companies can build a car the same or BETTER than any foreign company!".

My response, "Sure, I believe you...but just because they CAN doesn't mean the DO."

Black Tire

now if Honda could put they're F1 engines from the 1980's Williams cars into they're production cars:

Belzebutt

^^^ Agree. If Acura made that comment while announcing a RWD platform, no one would be laughing. But as it is, it's all just hot air since they're the only "luxury" brand (and I use that term loosely) with all FWD-based sedans (it's kind of hard to count Audi because they have so many high-end AWD models).

Let's be honest, most of us here love Acuras but we hate having to compromise on FWD and relatively weak engine choices (except the TL). We're frustrated that Acura doesn't give us the choice, and instead of showing anything concrete they just talk about lofty goals.

Less talk, more substance.

supraken

iTrader: (1)

At least there's the Toyota Century with a V12 (and now also the LS600h) and Nissan President with a V8 for Toyota and Nissan, which could be considered as ultra-luxury vehicles at $100k+ price tags...

Honda has nothing remotely close to even those, and it will take them a while just to rival the Japanese luxury models..

SPUDMTN

Exactly...it amazes me that everyone is squawking about this. The quote must be taken into context. There is a thread about this on the RL board and the same thing happened.

Not sure this comment is strictly applicable to simply the NSX, but I understand what you are saying.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with benchmarking these brands as far as styling and performance goes; that's a perfectly realistic goal. I completely agree that benchmarking these brands in terms of prestige, comparable product offering, service, and price is a joke--BUT that's not what Acura is saying.

Sly Raskal

iTrader: (1)

Acura hasn't known what it wants to say for the last 5 years.

Moog-Type-S

I'd venture to say longer than that.
It all started when they dropped the Legend name, and started with the Letter and Number designations for models.

F23A4

Indeed that is some coincidence....made worse by the fact that the Legend (and Integra) had great name recognition.

Sly Raskal

iTrader: (1)

The dropping of the Integra from the U.S. Market and the unholy design of the RSX compared to the Integra made it worse.

Sly Raskal

iTrader: (1)

Moog-Type-S

As far as lux brands go, Acura was the first out of Japan...and now still behind Euro lux makes...and to add insult to injury, Acura now trails the other lux makes out of Japan who started later to the game than Honda/Acura.

Honda has an identity crisis. They have claimed since the beginning that Acura is a lux-make...and yet at the same time claim to not be directly competing with some of the other lux-models/makes.....and then again, like in this article, now claim to be going after Maybach?!?!?!

Nobody is going to take Honda seriously in the lux-market until Honda gets a real game-plan in place to compete with the other lux-makes.

What is really going to be sad is 5-8 years from now when Hyundai passes Acura as a lux-brand.

Belzebutt

I don't agree about the Legend name. The whole idea of marketing names alongside your brand name dillutes your brand. Acura should be putting their whole energy into marketing ONE name: Acura.

Sly Raskal

iTrader: (1)

Tell that to the folks who own M3's.

Sly Raskal

iTrader: (1)

Don't forget Saturn...

See Post #44

CGTSX2004

iTrader: (1)

Not to mention a substantial shift in leadership.

Probably the one that Honda and Acura lack at this point is the leaders who are willing to take risks. If they can appoint someone to lead the Acura brand who has true leadership skills and a clear vision for the brand, then there is a chance for it to be successful and then we can talk about going further upmarket.

Sly Raskal

iTrader: (1)

Did you just use the word "risk" and "Acura" in the same sentence?