phee

iTrader: (5)

hybrid v6 that makes v8 power and has AWD with Tq vectoring.....

ttribe

Did I miss something? I don't see where there's an indication of a hybrid V6 that makes V8 power. If they do such a thing, that would be great, but I didn't see any hp discussion and there's an emphasis on "Earth Dreams," which doesn't exactly evoke thoughts of high performance.

jnc2000

What if I want to actually have tq transfer in conditions other then cornering?

Honda's previous SH-AWD system used to allow variable tq split forward and aft as much as 70% rear during WOT... something tells me this will just be artificial... and used just for marketing to benefit CAFE

TSX69

Acura's Super Handling All-Wheel Drive Evolves into a Hybrid PowerTrain

The next generation of Acura’s Super Handling All-Wheel Drive trades torque-vectoring differentials for electric motors, creating a gas/electric hybrid powertrain that is capable of pure electric driving and distributing torque between the right and left rear wheels. The electric SH-AWD system’s hardware includes 3 electric motors, a V-6 gas engine, a lithium-ion battery, and a 7-speed dual-clutch transmission. Honda will announce the 1st car that will receive electric SH-AWD sometime in 2012.

2 27-hp electric motors on the rear axle take the place of the current system’s electronically controlled differential to meter torque between the left and right wheels. By sending more torque to the outside rear wheel in a turn, the vehicle creates a yaw moment that encourages the car to rotate. While the SH-AWD system used today can only apportion torque when the driver is applying throttle, electric SH-AWD also vectors torque while the vehicle is slowing down. Under deceleration, the electric motor connected to the inside rear wheel uses regenerative braking to produce a negative torque and simultaneously generate electricity to charge the battery. The system can power a car up to 25 mph using electricity, but hard acceleration will cause the engine to fire up earlier.

The heart of the powertain is still a gas engine, specifically a 3.5-liter V-6 making more than 300 hp. The engine is mated to a 7-speed dual clutch automatic transmission that has been developed in-house by Honda engineers. A 40-hp electric motor connected to the transmission’s output shaft can send power to the front wheels or generate electricity to charge the battery.

Tokyo 2011: Acura’s Super Handling All Wheel Drive Evolves into a Hybrid Powertrain imageAt a technical briefing prior to the Tokyo auto show, we scored a 1-lap test drive of a Honda Accord mule packing electric SH-AWD hardware under its sheet-metal skin. The effectiveness of the torque vectoring rear motors is immediately apparent at turn in, rotating the car much more aggressively than the clutch-based system currently used in the TL, RL, MDX, and ZDX. It creates the sensation of being pushed rather than pulled through the turn. The handling is convincingly sporty but possibly too foreign for drivers heading to their local Whole Foods market. Aggressive driving would also benefit from steering that’s more accurate than the light, imprecise feel found in our mule.

Honda says the system delivers V-8 performance and four-cylinder fuel economy. While we had no way of verifying the efficiency, our internal accelerometer warns that claims of 8-cylinder acceleration are a stretch. Downshifts ordered from the wheel-mounted paddle shifters also weren’t quite ready for prime time, feeling slow and abrupt with no sign of rev matching. We have to note, though, that the car we drove was merely a mule, far from finalized in its calibration. We won’t know just how sporty Acura wants the electric SH-AWD system to be until we hear what car it will land in. Until then, electric SH-AWD is an interesting approach to all-wheel drive that offers much more than all-weather security, namely tangible fuel economy and handling benefits.

jnc2000

http://blog.caranddriver.com/acuras-...ectric-motors/

So essentially, instead of over-driving the rear wheels at either a fixed ratio (1.7) or variable (5.7% IIRC for the RL) which is what the modified BorgWarner unit did... this unit will essentially use braking power to achieve "similar results".

I think the driving experience will be vastly different then the previous SH-AWD system..

spg900ny

Android controls over 50% of the smartphone market and they debut with iPhone first? Come on, Acura. You can do better. At least release them both at the same time!

neuronbob

OK, what will you bet that the first car on the new SH-AWD platform will be the RL?

This sounds really cool. Do want.

Honda!

Colin

What seems most interesting is that the inside wheel can regenerate power for the outside wheel in real time. This should (in theory) bypass the inefficiencies of chemically storing energy!

TylerT

iTrader: (1)

Very interesting ..

6MT+ 300hp + New SH-AWD sounds like fun!

knavinusa

At last, Honda has a dual-clutch transmission. Better late than never.

Colin

It's going to do both right? Underdrive the inside wheel and overdrive the outside wheel?

Ken1997TL

If anything it'll be a better system. Less parasitic drive-train losses.

Colin

Yup, but as always there may be unintended consequences. This system as described (as I interpret it) means that it's not compatible with a manual transmission since the 40Kw front motor is in the DSG vs. flywheel of the older (less powerful) IMA.

ttribe

Okay...I did miss something. Honda is saying V8 power from a V6. I'm skeptical, but hopeful, that this will end up being true.

Colin

I'm sure it will depend on what V8 you're benchmarking, but it looks like the overall system power will be in the 360-390 range depending on how they end up rating the power curves of the electric and gas motors combined.

CarbonGray Earl

Colin's right....its going to be distinct from those systems that induce yaw through braking. Optimistically, looking at how its supposed to behave in a corner, its going to be nice post-apex.

Regarding its performance next to a V8, to be honest, that sounds like Honda marketing speak to create buzz. I'm not going to hold them to that, personally. To me, this is more comprehensive a change than just an engine.

I do see the advantages though:

-Electric motors have access to their full torque, instantly.
-Being all-electric, there is no hardware for an AWD system. Less weight, less complexity.

The unknown for me is the battery and everything associated with running the motors...while they've can say they've got rid of the trappings of traditional AWD, what will the new system involve in terms of complexity and weight?

Colin

I haven't seen how large the battery pack is going to be, but combined the electric motors put out 70 kW. The two motor plug in hybrid uses a 6 kWh battery pack of unknown weight for it's 120 kW electric motor. I can only imagine that this would require less battery than the 120 kW motor but who knows for sure? I'd bet that the spare tire gets chucked to save weight and make room and combined with the driveshaft it could net out pretty close to a current TL AWD.

Legend2TL

Interesting drivetrain, IIRC Ferrari has proposed a AWD similar system with the opposite configuration being electric motors for the front wheels and the gasoline motor for the rear wheels.

Ken1997TL

I imagine this system will have comparable performance, especially in regards to torque, to a 4.x liter V8.

biker

This "V6 with the power of a V8" is total marketing speak. V8s a few years ago were putting out around 300HP and only recently are making 400+ HP. So they could claim anything between 300 and 400 to be the power of a V8.

Colin

Exactly, we know the gas engine could make at least 300 so 300-400 is reasonable. The good part is if you're getting 25% of your overall system power from electric, it makes sense that you could see a ~25% improvement in fuel economy with no performance downside.

IMO, the biggest question is cost? Would they continue to make the most advanced models in Japan only, which makes them especially sensitive to currency fluctuations?

CarbonGray Earl

Let's not forget that Honda also used to say that their 4 cylinder made the power of v6s...which, in truth, they were able to do back when 6 cylinders were only putting out around 180-210 hp in late 90s-early 00s.

I don't think its impossible to match maybe the midpack v8 power or torque.

CarbonGray Earl

Great point. That darn yen....

pttl

300 -400 is a pretty big range. Since there are already 6 cyl. cars out there that make 330 HP Infiniti G37 for example...To claim V8 comparability, I would think that 370 would be a minimum - Challenger RT etc....

Colin

That type of drivetrain was suggested in the DualNote/DN-X concepts and IMO, could be the basis for the next NSX or sports model. I think I've been suggesting it for some time now, make a modern MR-2 by taking the entire transverse FWD engine/tranny and move it to the back. Adding electric motors to the front axle would be sooooo easy with this new system. (do you want to bet that this is what we're seeing with the Avengers prototype?)

SSFTSX

Audi A8 is 372bhp but it is exceptionally fast car for its class. look at its handling (0.93g) and speed. Almost matching BMW 7 4.4 turbo.

Acura will have no problem in matching Hyundai/Lexus V8 in speed. but not larger turbo model from Germany

http://media.caranddriver.com/files/...percharged.pdf

fsttyms1

The question is is for how long? A normal V8 can red light launch until the gas needle goes empty. If its battery powered, how long can one be spirited in driving till the electric needle shows 0


And still sohc wtf.

fsttyms1

They have the system in the FF that uses the front half of the motor to power the trans. IMHO all this talk of using electric motors right now to power wheels is stupid. In less than 10 min with me the batteries driving the system would be dead. Give me a REAL motor to power all 4 please.

KillerG

this new sh-awd system sounds fucking awesome. the first drive blip didnt sound too promising but considering the current sh-awd system is awesome im sure this will end up being pretty good too, hopefully the RL doesnt get it... hopefully it ends up on something with more sporting intentions

Edward'TLS

V8 power and torque ?

Whatever. Just make it happen !

Edward'TLS

Agree. Honda needs to put in extra heavy-duty power generating motors to keep the hybrid battery pack(s) top up all the time. But then, that would defeat the purpose of putting in electric motors for 4-cylinder-like fuel economy in the 1st place.

CarbonGray Earl

you know, before I go jumping to conclusions, I wonder what the experience for owners of the CRZ or even the HCH is in terms of draining the battery during aggressive driving.

In my brief experience test driving a Civic Hybrid, after a full throttle run, the battery would charge up rather quickly. I don't think charging and discharging will be a problem, to be honest.

I think the innovative part of the torque vectoring is that regeneration will occur in the inside wheel in the pre-apex portion of the turn. The battery will be charged during turns.

Of course, I'm gonna wait and see like everyone else.

Costco

I think having electric motors in the rear makes a bit more sense for a regular passenger car. Gas engine + transaxle in the rear with electric motors in the front would be cool but then there's the whole issue of cooling. Have pipes running from the front all the way to the back a la MR2 as well?

Legend2TL

For the diesel a turbo is mentioned but I saw nothing in the release for a gasoline motor.

Legend2TL

Happy to read everything in the press release except for the CVT (not a fan). Great to see Honda finally getting into a North American with a diesel, DI, DCT, ...

Colin

With our CR-Z, it's a constant ebb and flow of energy into, and out of, the system. The most common occurrence of running the battery down is during long hill climbs. In normal driving, this is the only time that I can consistently use up all the stored energy. However, there are ways to get around this once you understand what's happening. I've learned that if I tried to climb the hill in sixth gear I will run out of stored energy halfway up. However, if I put the car in fourth or fifth gear, I can get partial assist all the way up the hill versus using a lot of assist in the first half, and then downshifting two gears for the second half.

Also, from some of what I've read, it seems that the inside wheel will power the outside wheel directly when a corner. In this situation, you would be bypassing the batteries entirely. I think the big motor on the transmission is tasked with the majority of regeneration under braking.

To answer fsttyms1 concern, it depends on what the circumstances are for your "10 minutes of hard driving". If you have 10 minutes of hard driving and no braking, you will run out of electrical energy much sooner than 10 minutes! But since they haven't said how large the battery pack is for this car we don't know how much energy it's going to be able to store yet.

Colin

Isn't that the same for most if not all mid-engined cars? It's not really that big a deal unless you route the coolant lines next the the gas pedal (first year of the original MR-2) cause it gets HOT.

Edward'TLS

Even happier if Honda will stick to it's plans.

Hope there's no more this-and-that shelved/postponed due to the EU debt crisis, or the US double-dip recession fear, or the Middle-East war looming, etc.

Colin

I didn't note that they were coming to NA with the new diesel? Other than mentioning that they could do a small car (Civic sized) without urea injection I didn't interpret that as intent but maybe I missed something?

Moog-Type-S

Sadly, with Honda, it is: "Believe it when you see it."

Their plans and words are worthless at this point.

My excitement about this is tepid...because of past announcements.