BuddySol

I dunno, but those mirrors really do stand out.

vicpai_RENAMED

......the TSX is MADE IN JAPAN and the new TL is NOT, besides the "infamous" Honda tranny (or is it even built by Honda? ) doesn't have to be subject to so much power/torque........and yes, even different manufacturing plants in the same country/area make a difference in reliability/quality. I owned a 2000TL/Navi and now own an MDX/Navi/DVD......WHAT A DIFFERENCE. The Marysville, OH-built TL was "bulletproof" with no problems of any kind over the approx. 15,000 miles/9 mos. that I had it for (before it got stolen ) - not even any rattles/squeaks of any kind!! - and fit and finish was phenomenal. I definitely cannot say the same thing about the Alliston, Ontario-built '03 MDX that I now own - numerous rattles, squeaks, clunks, sloshing sounds as well as MANY reliability issues, not to mention several fit-and-finish issues! :thumbsdn: Even from a "gut feeling" perspective, the vehicle OVERALL just doesn't seem to be that well "put together"

FYI, I've not just come to a random conclusion on this. The reason for the above mentioned hypothesis is because my brother owned 2 Accords (both built in Marysville, OH) and both were "bulletproof". A friend of mine owns an Odyssey built in the same Alliston, Ontario plant as my MDX, and he has numerous problems with it too. Coincidence?? ....I think not!

larchmont

Is this true??

I admit that I got tired of the "facts and rumors" a while ago and haven't paid that much attention lately, but I didn't think I missed something like this.

THE NEW TL ISN'T BUILT IN JAPAN????

Jason

The TL is being built alongside the Accord in Ohio.

Airdog

I am surprised we have not heard anything from "JustinJSW" regarding this breach on information.

VtecMW

Well, I hope Marysville comes through again with another bulletproof TL, especially the one I have a deposit on!!

Iceman

My 99 Accord was built in Ohio, and it was bulletproof.

dabuda

nice review

gi'me

I won't be in the car buying market for another 2 or 3 years. The TL will be on my short list mainly because it's available with a manual transmission. However, the write-up states that 15% of production will be MT, which tells me that I'll have to order, wait and lose bargaining power. But, we'll see.

Carlos8542222

Vicpai:

Thank you for your explanation. I was getting ready to write a long post to defend my previous statement concerning reliability comparisons between TSX and TL but you beat me to it. (I love this board).

As a little sidenote, I drive a 1990 Honda Accord (besides a 1987 Acura Integra as my sig denotes). The doors on that thing STILL, to this day, close like a VAULT. It is a NICE AND HEAVY thump which conveys a feeling of QUALITY. This Accord was made in Japan.

I have a friend who has the exact same car (a 1990 Accord). His Accord was made in the United States. When you close those doors, it is a totally different feeling. Like it is made out of tin. It feels flimsy. Not airtight fit like the Japan made Accord. Coincidence? I think not.

Does anybody have any Japanese friends or aquaitances? Those are the best workers in the world I think. They have to be some of the most disciplined.

I don't think you can compare the work ethic of a Japanese worker with that of an American. I love this country, but the Japanese KICK ASS!!!!!!

Carlos

VtecMW

I don't disagree with your statement. On the opposite end of the spectrum, however, there are a couple of things to consider.

1. The Accord is one of the best selling cars in the U.S.

2. It has reputation for quality and reliability. Obviously, a lot of this might be hype depending on who you ask.

My point is that a car like this carries a lot with it from a manufacturing standpoint. Although "some" Japanese built products might be better overall, I think there are a lot of workers in Ohio and other plants who take great pride in making sure a car like the Accord lives up to its reputation, which I'm sure could rival any Japanese assembly line. It's too bad that this doesn't hold true for all American assembly plants.

:P

vitocorleone

I wish this article had said how LONG this thing is. Considering that it may weigh a few more pounds than the current TL, but be noticeably shorter, I bet that even if it isn't much faster, the driving dynamics will be greatly improved through structural rigidity and such. Not only will it be sporty in speed, but it will actually handle like a car through the turns instead of navigate like a boat (apologies to current captains of a TL for the exaggeration :-) . If the TL is ~90% of a BMW 530 for so much less money, I think Acura will have yet another winner on their hands.

Santacruz

I agree. I wish there were a few more "stats". BTW is the new TL riding on 17" or 18" wheels? They look big in the photo.

If Acura follows-up the TSX launch with a solid outing with the TL, Acura will solidify a great niche in the entry level luxury sedan segment. And from the sounds of the review the suspension sounds much improved. But as many have said before, reliability will be key for Acura's success. What good is a cheaper version of the BMW530 if the reliabilty is bad.

Skull One_RENAMED

Well, I think we are looking at a 6.7 to 6.8 0 to 60 on the new TL. Was really hoping for a 255 ish foot pounds of torque number (since my S80 does around 280). Guess I will have to make some adjustments to my driving habits in regards to getting on the highway from a dead stop.

I am shocked they would even mention the BMW 530i as their target. Simply put, after test driving one for 45 minutes, I don't see how they can even remotely come close to that goal. Under-steer is a major issue alone. And I doubt the body roll will be as good. Build quality is another issue that will have to be waited on to see how it stacks up. But I doubt Acrua can beat the already well established 530i.

Also they are targeting the '02-'03 530i. The '04 has some major enhancements that are coming down from the 7 series which almost makes it impossible to compare '03 530i to '04 530i. If BMW had the same NAV system as Acura, I would be placing an order for the '04 530i today.

RJC RSX

It's very easy to see how the 530i is the competitor. It's the same how the TSX is a competitor to the 325i...it's called value.

And if the current TL Type-S goes 0-60 in 6.2 seconds, I would expect the 6sp to be under 6 seconds.

planman

Before this gets out of hand, can we please all agree that more power does not necessarily mean better sound? The kids working at Best Buy may tell you that some 300-watt receiver is better than a 200-watt model, but that don't make it so.

I'll take lower wattage from a higher quality amp any day. For example, my Hardon-Karman AV receiver only has 70 watts per channel but it will kick the crap out of my 125 watts per channel Sony by any measure (eg, sound quality, volume, etc). A lower but constantly delivered power rating is better than a higher, peaky number.

It's like torque...do you want a car with some massive number out near redline where you never drive or would you rather have a big fat, flat torque curve from top of bottom of your tach?

Gebbeth

I know everyone seems happy with the review, but the article does seem to suggest that this is not the "performance" car that Acura sought the produce. The article mentions the 530i as it's benchmark (not the 540i) and even then, the understeer problems prevented the writers from saying it matched the 530i for handling. No mention of acceleration, so that is still up in the air. They did say most people wouldn't push their cars to such extremes, but by saying that, I sensed Autoweek was admitting that this is not a car for sports enthusiasts but more for the general public that wanted some extra omph for the money.

With the weight of the car, FWD and the V6, do you think understeer will be a bigger problem for the TL than it is for the TSX? I do believe, however, the new TL will outhandle the old TL (if the handling of the TSX is any indication of how the new TL will feel). Also, the listed weight increase from the '03 TL, the only 10 HP increase in power and the torque numbers being thrown around seem to suggest to me very little if any increase in acceleration and 1/4 mile numbers from the old TL. I guess we'll see.

On another note, I read somewhere on another thread that the new NSX will NOT have the hybrid IMA. This suggests the new RL will not also (if they are not going to put IMA in the top of the line sports car model, why would they put it on their production RL car?)

planman

Can someone please explain to me why there seems to be a common conception of inferior quality from Honda's US/North American plants vs. their Japanese ones? Isn't it fair to assume that the same quality control measures and generally the same corporate culture are in place in Honda facilities worldwide?

need4spd_RENAMED

As predicted by others on this board, Autoweek pulled the 2004 TL article from thier web site

Hope you saved your own copy!

iVTEC_Inside

That's because the new Accord platform is much more sturdy than what previous TL had. Not to mention there are more features and better build quality that result in this porkchop weight.

TinkySD

story appears to be taken down. Probablyh some honda rep watching this board If anyone has it please PM me.

lsbuffs

Can somebody post the review for those of us who weren't able to view before it was pulled?

Skyhawk

RJC RSX posted it on ClubRSX.com/ News and Rumors.

need4spd_RENAMED

Here is the text / photos from the deleted Autoweek article:

(11:19 Aug. 21, 2003) - Autoweek.com

2004 Acura TL

Sharper Image: Acura’s BMW chaser gets sportier and plusher

By BILL McGUIRE

“WE WANTED TO PUT A sharper point on the pencil,” says Honda executive vp Tom Elliott. For the 2004 iteration of the Acura TL—introduced in 1995, revamped in 1999 and now in its third design cycle—the goal was to steer the plush front-drive sedan closer to the sport side of the sport-luxury equation. Buyers in the $30,000 near-luxury market are growing younger, says Elliott, from early 50s to late 40s in age, and looking for more performance to go with the pampering.


How serious are the new TL’s sporting intentions, or are these merely sporting pretensions? Well, for one thing, this is the first TL to be offered with a manual transaxle.

It is a close-ratio six-speed, with a limited-slip differential as standard equipment. Of course, the five-speed Sport Shift automatic is also available. (Acura says about 15 percent of buyers will opt for the stick.) Next, in calibrating the TL’s driving characteristics, project engineers chose as their competitive benchmark the BMW 530i. Tough benchmark.

The previous TL was offered in two versions: a 225-hp base model and a sport-ish Type-S with 260 hp. When the new TL hits showrooms Oct. 6, there will be but one model; the Type-S will be no more. But that’s okay, because the TL has 270 hp (via a 24-valve, 3.2-liter V6). While Honda no longer dominates F1 every time it bothers to show up, the company still builds some of the sweetest street engines around, and the most advanced. This one uses a two-stage intake tract and Honda’s premium three-rocker VTEC variable valve timing system to provide sound and seamless power throughout the range with either the automatic or manual transmission.

The previous TL’s clean if nondescript lines have been sharpened, edging toward the Cubist trend in exterior surface development. We’ll see if it stands out from the herd any more or less than the previous look.


The TL’s cabin is slathered with entertainment and convenience features, nearly all standard. Most notable is the eight-speaker, 225-watt DVD-Audio system, incorporating a six-disc changer, cassette player and 5.1 surround-sound technology. The TL is the first car in North America to offer DVD-Audio. While a standard CD carries two channels of audio, a DVD-A disc carries six—and 500 times the signal resolution, says Panasonic, the outfit pushing the new audio format. (While conventional CDs are also supported, DVD-A media will only work on a DVD player and will only achieve the truly impressive surround-sound effect in a 5.1 system.) The DVD-A catalog is rather limited right now but is growing, accord-- ing to Panasonic. The wounded recording industry watches hopefully: DVD-A discs are virtually impossible to pirate.


XM satellite radio is also integrated into the audio system, with a three-month complimentary subscription and service at $9.95 per month thereafter. Also standard is a voice-activated hands-free phone system that electronically pairs to any Bluetooth-enabled cellphone and can support up to six different phones placed anywhere within 30 feet of the car. Acura’s eminently usable navigation system is optional.
Driving the new TL in both the manual and automatic versions, we were impressed with the palpable stoutness of construction, the refined appointments, logical interior layout, and the relative transparency of all that gadgetry to be figured out. For comfort and value, the new TL slots in neatly near the top of the near-luxury bracket.

The TL’s new, tauter chassis calibrations offer security in virtually any road situation, without unduly intruding on the luxury ride. But for pure sport driving, does it challenge the BMW? Sorry, not quite. Here the TL runs up against the inherent limitation of its front-drive platform, namely, grinding, fun-robbing understeer at the absolute limits. Manufac-turers pursuing the extreme sporting end of the market continue to gravitate to rear-drive layouts. But most consumers seldom if ever drive that way, and many appreciate the all-weather benefits and packaging advantages of front-wheel drive. Those drawn to the new TL on those grounds will not be disappointed.

· ON SALE: October
· BASE PRICE: n/a
· POWERTRAIN: 3.2-liter, 270-hp, 238-lb-ft V6; fwd, six-speed manual
· CURB WEIGHT: 3575 pounds
· 0-60 MPH: n/a

princed

Okay, I have done something nerdy and entirely without any sound scientific backing in an attempt to estimate the TL 6MT’s 0-60 time. Before the flames ensue, I’d like to point out that I’m quite aware of the fact that this method is overly simplistic and has never, to my knowledge, been proven to effectively predict anything. In these calculations, I assume that any given Honda will have a 0-60 sec. acceleration time inversely proportional to its Torque/Weight Ratio. Of course, torque varies based on rpm, gear, etc. so using the peak torque is not ideal, but it provides an easy number to use. I’m using the Accord Coupe 6MT and the TSX 6MT as points of reference in extrapolating the TL’s info as both of these cars are Honda-made and use a close ratio 6-speed manual.

Accord Coupe
Torque – 212 lb-ft.
Weight – 3265 lbs
Torque/Weight Ratio: 0.06493109
0-60 time (measured by C&D): 5.9s

Acura TSX
Torque – 166 lb-ft
Weight – 3241
Torque/Weight Ratio: 0.05121876
0-60 time (measured by C&D): 7.2s

Acura TL
Torque – 238 lb-ft.
Weight – 3575 lbs.
Torque/Weight Ratio: 0.0665734
0-60 time: ?

If we assume the following, we can make a calculation of the TL’s 0-60 time:

Equation 1: (Torque/Weight Ratio) x (0-60 time) = Constant

If we then assume that the constant is the same for all of the above models, we can use the transitive property to say:

Equation 2: (T/Wcar1) x (0-60car1) = (T/Wcar2) x (0-60car2)

Unfortunately, if you perform equation 1 on both the Accord and the TSX, you see that the constant generated is not the same. Equation 1 for the Accord yields a result of 0.3831 while the TSX gets 0.3688, meaning that the TSX is perhaps getting more acceleration “bang for the buck” when compared to the Accord. Again, torque is but one of many variables that influences acceleration, so the TSX may have other factors contributing to its greater efficiency, or it may just be that the quantity (T/W x 0-60) is not constant (i.e. as T/W increases, the magnitude of improvement may decrease). By using Equation 2 and setting car 1 to the Accord, the TL’s calculated 0-60 time is 5.75s. Using Equation 2 with car 1 being the TSX, however, you get a 0-60 time of 5.54s. I must also mention that because I used C&D numbers, these results are predictions for what C&D will measure -- their numbers are almost universally better than what others get...

Of course, the error inherent in this little exercise completely invalidates any of the results. I felt that this method would only work if the 0-60 times were all from the same magazine (even then, the variability is quite large), so I didn’t include the CL. I couldn’t find C&D 0-60 numbers for the CL Type-S w/ 6MT + LSD, which would probably produce a more accurate prediction, given its similarity to the TL. However, given the fact that the weight and torque of the two vehicles are within a few percentage points of each other, the calculation would predict the new TL’s 0-60 to be very close to that of the CL-S.

I have a few questions as well... I don’t know much about the science underlying the performance of vehicles, so I’d appreciate any elucidation of the factors important in determining a given car’s 0-60 time. I know torque and grip are important (so the TL’s new, wider tires should help), but do weight distribution, stiffness, coefficient of drag, etc. play major roles as well? If so, I believe we're expecing the new TL to improve upon the weaknesses of its predecessor, so Honda should be able to do more with the same amount of power. Hopefully the redesigned Accord Coupe and TSX are indications that the new TL will exceed the 2nd gen. despite its modest increase in work/power.

vp12

thanks to whoever found it. I wonder what honda will do/say to those wonderful people at Autoweek.

Skyhawk

....particularly as this is the second time in six months?

princed

The review was so bland and without substance that I doubt Honda is happy that this article is the "first look" the internet community is getting at the new TL. As someone else mentioned on vtec.net, it almost appears as if they wrote the article without actually driving the car...

I don't know if Autoweek will be getting an invitation to preview the 05 RL.

vp12

regardless, i think that they would not be happy to see things like HP/Torgue/weight etc. figures confirmed.
but i got that impression too about the not driving it part of your post.

EmuMessenger

I think a lot of people will be disappointed if the new TL comes in at 6.7/8 in either the automatic or manual.

fdl

Auto would be acceptable, but if the manual is this slow it will bomb. I mean..its got to be at least faster than an accord.

RJC RSX

Come on, if the current TL-S 0-60 time is 6.2 seconds, then we're going to see 5.x numbers with the 6sp for sure.

EmuMessenger

Sure, but some magazines got 7.6 0-60 on the TLS and others low 6's.

What is reality?

My old 96 MAxima SE-5MT was rated at 6.6 and it feels much faster than my TLS-Navi.

ViperLuke

Yeah. Probably high 5's 0-60mph. Using various 1/4 mile calculators. Which factor weight and HP. The 04 TL should do the quarter in around 14.5 seconds. Thats at 270 flywheel HP. If the actual HP is around 285. Which I hope is true. The quarter would go by in approx. 14.2 sec@96 mph. In order to break into the 13's, which would be my goal. The car would need a little over 300 flywheel HP. Any 4 door sedan that can cover the 1/4 in under 14 sec. is a fast car.
So if the TL's handling is improved along with the close ratio 6-speed and performance rubber. Even performance junkies like me, may be satisfied.

acura_driver

Nope. My stock 01CL-S (auto) is 6.1. If the 04TL auto is 6.7/8 I'd probably pass.

-r

EmuMessenger

I hope you're right, but I will not hold my breath.

vp12

i know that no honda V6's have been iVTEC but there has been so much talk of it being a iVTEC. i guess we were wrong

"This one uses a two-stage intake tract and Honda’s premium three-rocker VTEC variable valve timing system to provide sound and seamless power throughout the range with either the automatic or manual transmission. "

Gebbeth

There's a lot of variables unknown at this time, so who knows about 0-60 times. The added weight is not good, but is insignificant from a straight numbers perspective. About 300 pounds heavier than the Accord and nearly that much over the TSX (itself, not a light car for its size). It has 30 more HP over the Accord and 70 more HP over the TSX. So...

Accord: 3265lbs/240hp = 13.6 weight to hp ratio
3265lbs/212lbs/ft = 15.4 weight to torque ratio

'04TL: 3575lbs/270hp = 13.2 weight to hp ratio
3575lbs/238lbs/ft = 15.0 weight to torque ratio

TSX: 3241lbs/200hp = 16.2 weight to hp ratio
3241lbs/166ft/lbs = 19.5 weight to torque ratio

'03TL: 3538lbs/260hp = 13.6 weight to hp ratio
3538lbs/232ft/lbs = 15.2 weight to hp ratio

My guess is that you are going to see almost exactly the same numbers as the old '03TL and not that much better than the '04 Accord. It's more difficult to get a heavier object moving given the same amount of force, so the added weight puts the 'O4 TL at a disadvantage, but the marginal improvement in weight to hp and torque ratios may compensate for that.

However, the weight distribution is going to be more important. If there is more weight on the nose, you're going to get more understeer, and that's going to be a problem. Also it's much more difficult to get a heavier object to change direction (i.e., it takes more force to do so) and stop if all other variables are the same. So the new TL better have better suspension, brakes and tires than the old TL or the Accord to allow the steering and the added power to work in getting the car to change direction, and thus, handle better than the old model and to stop the car. This is where a lot of the improvements may show up.

I don't think you're going to see a quicker car, but I hope you will have a better handling car. I have my doubts about both.

BTW, you can see why the acceleration numbers are so bad for the TSX compared to the Accord and the old TL. But you also can see why the suspension is so good. The have such a heavy, and yes, underpowered car handle so well is a testament to the suspension system of the car. Better tires will only improve that. The TSX needs a significant mid-cycle upgrade address three issues: (1) internal rattles and shakes, fitment problems, (2) being underpowered for its weight and (3) better brakes. After that, it's gravy (power passenger seat, better tires, bigger sway bars, compass etc.)

Raheel

Hey the person who saved the webpage and posted, I hope you save the images, as they are linking to the site, and they will be gone soon too

1SICKLEX

The interior looks pretty sweet, the last TL had a great interior too. But this car is starting to look ugly. And the Acura in the fron is cheap. It looks like a fat overfed TSX. So the RL I guess will be a fat overfed TL?