Keanu's mrs. T

currently I have a fosgate p3 10" sub that will be going into a sealed enclosure w/ .67 airspace. I was wondering if the alpine type-r or the kicker solo classic would be any better of a choice. They all have similar airspace requirements. I am looking for the most bump from my sealed set up, and yes I know I should port it but that is not an option due to limited space. Any help will be much appreciated, thanks!

on1wheel01

Oh god let it begin............

97BlackAckCL

iTrader: (6)

Either answer his question, or don't bother posting.

Is there an issue with your current setup or do you want something more?

fourthmeal

Well, .67 cubes translates to .871 cubes when stuffed with polyfil at the rate of 1.25 lbs per cubic foot...which can gain you around 30% apparent airspace. That is optimistic, you can safely say you will average ~.8 cubes if you stuff moderately, so I think your options are still good. Now, I am relatively good at finding things people haven't thought of, but before I go spelunking I need you to tell me what your subwoofer amp's power outputs are and at what ohm spec.

Keanu's mrs. T

Well, currently I have a an 8" L7 in a custom fiber enclosure and it performs well. But as I have noticed the bottom end is pretty good but I sure miss the really lows like that of a ported box. With that said I realize the sealed box can't really match the "boom" of a ported box, I would love to get as close as possible. So therefore I have a 10" P3 but I can easily go with a solo classic or type-r.

currently my amp is rated @ 200 rms 4 ohms & yes I am currently looking to upgrade to an amp of at least 400 watts @ 2ohms.

fourthmeal

I want to point out that an "L" series sub is a massively bad idea in a tiny box, unless you are after a very peaky, very resonant design. Hoffman's Iron Law is in full effect, and you can't get a sub like the L7 to fit small boxes without, say, an aperiodic membrane to change the airspace behavior. So, ditch that sub.

Here are some subs I want you to look into:

CSS SDX10
Fi Car Audio SSD and Q
Soundsplinter RLi

And let me know what you think.

Edited to add: You are going to want an amp that gets around 1000W RMS. You see, you can simply push the sub harder (and double the wattage is only 3dB louder, remember), and use EQ to get back the very low frequency extension.

You also might want to consider the location of the box if that is adjustable. Sometimes it is a cancellation issue.

mattastick

Fourthmeal, if you're going to mention Fi, you should also add in AA, seeing as they're the same subs, made by the same company...

But I agree. OP, if you want louder, but can't afford the space for a bigger box, then you need more power. And going from 200w to your planned 400w probably won't be that noticeable. I agree with fourthmeal and suggest up near the 1000w range. But, make sure it's legitimate power and not Boss Audio/Power Acoustic/etc 1kws...

fourthmeal

Good to see AA is around still! Yep they are both in Las Vegas, same address. Local for me.

New Power Acoustik isn't too bad a choice now. Grizz at Soundstream/PA/PPI explained that the BAMF series is decent. Powerbass isn't too bad for an entry level brand either. IMO my favorite entry-level amp for high power is going to be MB Quart Discus line. They do what they say they will, they don't cost much, and they should hold up fine. since Maxxsonics owns them and Hifonics too, one could say the same of the new Hifonics as well.

OP, time to get more power!

thewhitepearl

i have a JL w3v3-2 pushed by a rfostgate p500-1 that performs really well in uncald4's custom sealed box. perfect for country/rock.. but can also hang w/the best of em when it comes to hiphop/rap. its really loud in the cabin.. and no boom on the outside which is something i personally like.

its really all about your audio choice. oo.. and if u want SQ or SPL

fourthmeal

The thing about JL is that they are non-optimal in those small boxes. It works, but the very limited xmax and high qts mean you will run short on low bass. What probably makes your box sound so good is that Uncald4 is a master builder, with excellent box design and further...its in the corner of the vehicle so it loads extremely well without cancellation. If you put in a more, shall we say, potent sub and power it accordingly... WOAH.

JL Audio has an Xmax of 14mm. Most of the subs mentioned above will do double that, ergo as long as you have the power to push it that far, it will play lower, louder. Of course the JL is cheaper though.

Keanu's mrs. T

wow what knowledge you guys possess, my enclosure is very similar to the uncald4 design and I like to keep it but just alter it a bit to accommodate the mentioned list of 10s. I don't have a big budget so that limits my range of product. But so I should ditch the L7 and go with a 10? I have ran that L7 in a ported enclosure I have and it rocks but swallows crucial trunk space. I was hoping it would get kind of close in performance to the sealed enclosure but not quite. Plus, does a sub with higher xmax necessarily play louder & better in a sealed box? The solo classic & type-r have higher xmax values than lets say the P3 I have now & the JL 10w3, so I'm speculating the kicker & alpine might perform better?

fourthmeal

Try this:

Model the L7 in the ported box you've got in WinISD (free program, enjoy.) Then, model up the L7 in the sealed enclosure you have, and finally model up a few 10" subs in the sealed enclosure. What you will have will be an idea of what you've heard (and liked) vs. what you will hear on average.

And here's the deal about Xmax... in a sealed enclosure all you have is excursion (xmax) to make sound. In a ported box, you can get ridiculous bass with very little subwoofer movement at the port tuning frequency and near it, because you are using a helmholtz resonance process to get your SPL. A sealed box has no such trick up its sleeve, so xmax becomes a key factor. Xmax without enough power to drive it is useless however! You, friend, are going to need a LOT more power to achieve your goals. I bet your L7 would sound tons better with a 1000W amp driving it, with heavy EQ additions on the bottom octaves. Sure, it becomes a power hog but that's how you make a small, tidy box something to contend with. Again, there are laws in place (laws of physics I mean) that you simply cannot break. Small box = inefficient.

fourthmeal

And if the concept of WinISD makes you not so sure of what to do, when I get home after work (and remember I'm on PST zone), I'll model up the subs and show some screen shots of my work. In order to do that, I need you to do me a favor and measure the airspace of the ported box you have tested, and the port's dimensions lxwxh. I can then measure the tune it has and compare that against your options. I also need to know the ohm spec of the L7 you have.

eggyhustles

if u want to stay sealed, go with 2 subs instead of 1

more cone area and motor force will help.

fourthmeal

I don't think he can do that, due to the design of the box already made. Blood outta turnips this time around.

mattastick

Yeah, AA's still around. "They" just came out with the SMD sub, which is also OEM'ed for Crossfire as their top of the line sub. I've seen a couple 18s (yeah, that's right, 18s, they only made a handful of them) and they were massive subs. Maybe a good theory (probably more show for Meade) but they weren't too terribly loud.

Even Sounstream is meh, imo. They do power (teammates have/had the xxx-4k, 6500 and 10k) but they're inefficient as no other and they're 18v amps. The lower lines aren't too bad (another teammate ran the 1k's) but I'd still look elsewhere for the money.

You're absolutely right about the MBQ's. The new Discuss stuff is SICK for the money. They run kinda toasty, but definitely do rated power and Mike and John are great guys to work with. I'm running the 4125 and it's a great little amp.

Win ISD can be pretty confusing for a newbie. Hell, I've used it a handful of times, and it still confuses me every now and again.

But you're definitely right about the Xmax part. And OP, it takes more power to reach xmax in a sealed box, due to the enclosure aiding the suspension with it's "job" (for lack of a better phrase) whereas a ported chamber will allow the sub to move more per watt. This is what (in lamen's terms) creates the efficiency of a ported enclosure compared to the sealed enclosure.

Oh, and fixed the comment about small enclosures. Certain SPL enclosure do well and even better with smaller boxes and large ports.

timeizmoney22

Any of you use dynomat on your cl's trunk and if so how much rattle were you left with after the fact?

mattastick

Start a new thread with this question.

fourthmeal

I use RAAMmat BXTII and there is no rattle in my trunk.

P.s. working on graphing some options.

timeizmoney22

Will do!

Keanu's mrs. T

Okay my former set up with the S8L7 dual 2ohm was in a 1.0 cubic feet enclosure with a side firing port that measure 21.25" x 9.5" x 2" (manufacturer spec'd enclosure). I couldn't believe it's ability to produce such lows with such a small amp 200w rms bridged! But knowing a very small amount about bass reflex v. sealed it kind of makes sense. So using the Xmax values the Alpine type-r and Kicker Solo Classic both have about 18+ mm of Xmax, way higher than most typical 10" subs. The P3 I have now hovers around 14mm. Does that necessarily correspond to greater ability for the alpine or kicker to out perform the Fosgate P3?

fourthmeal

A few mm's won't do much that you will audibly hear. I graphed out your P3 and found at 400-500W it is pushing its little heart out and reaching its Xmax range right at 20hz. If you haven't yet, I recommend you poly-stuff that small box of yours and then see if you like the change. There are other subs that will fit the small box you have, but you will need about 1200W of clean power to get there. With that much power, there are plenty of really well made 10" subs that will reach deeper and louder than what you have in that small box. Suggestion: Get a bigger, better amp but keep the P3 sub you have. Next, either change subs or change boxes, or both. And FYI, Alpine and Kicker ain't got nuthin' on the stuff from AE, Fi Audio, AA, SSA, Sound Splinter, and CSS. We're in a completely different category than mainstream.

mattastick

My 10's are 21mm one way x-max... I'd say that's a bit higher than your "typical" 10s. But see comments below...

This right here. My 10s are AA's and they're sick (fs too, see sig). Also, there are companies like RE Audio (older stuff), DC Sound Labs, Sundown Audio, etc that make subs that could potentially fit in your application, depending on the amount of mounting depth you have in your current box.

Keanu's mrs. T

Okay, It looks like I have a better direction to go thanks to your wealth of knowledge about audio. I checked out some of the products you mentioned and wow, it's amazing to see so many other legitimate brands out there besides the usual mainstream product. So poly fill is another method to "trick" the sub into performing like it was in a bigger enclosure? Doesn't one lose a bit of efficiency, but I guess that would be of little consequence when one obtains the output they desire.

fourthmeal

Yes polyfil is a win-win product, capable of lowering F3 and improving transient response while not affecting power handling adversely. It is a simple solution with a very complex reason behind why it works.

Ah yes... I found it for you:

http://www.audiojunkies.com/blog/134...osure-resource

That pretty much sums up perfectly what polyfill is all about.

Keanu's mrs. T

So I would use approximately around 1lb. of polyfill for my enclosure that is .67 cubes in airspace, according to the ratio? And as far as putting that in the enclosure, it just needs to be loosely filled right? Not packed in there and bunched up to favor one side of the enclosure? BTW, awesome article highlighting the complex yet easy underpinnings of polyfill.

Keanu's mrs. T

RE Audio appears to be the least expensive of the group mentioned, is that right? I've never had much exposure to the others listed. I've been dealing with the usual mainstream products for quite some time. I certainly wish I had knowledge of these products long ago. Now I know what to aim for. Of course it doesn't help when I'm just a former basshead from the 90s that was looking for the best bang for the buck!

mattastick

RE is usually the cheapest, yes. But here's the problem. Their new stuff ain't so great. Their older stuff is solid, but at that point, you're buying used gear, which will be cheaper, but also you don't know how it's been treated...

fourthmeal

I completely agree. RE is now something else, you can do better.

Oh and polyfil...you'll find a lb is damn near impossible to get in the box, so don't worry too much about packing it too tight. Just get what you can in there..

Keanu's mrs. T

okay, will stuff that lil' thing with some polyfill. I couldn't help but notice your comment about the uncald4 design. That design was my inspiration but I do have a question concerning the orientation of the sub. Obvious his design seems to be right on however for me the sub's angled placement isn't highly appealing visually speaking. Would re-orienting the sub to fire directly across to the other side impair the audibility of the sub? I would

fourthmeal

Sub facing can be an interesting topic. Some people use the thought process that bass is a pressure wave, thus it is omnidirectional. But cancellation and interference patterns become a serious issue so it actually does matter what direction the sub faces after all. Putting it in a corner of a vehicle has excellent potential, because the chance of getting a cancellation is low as there is no delayed reflection. My final answer is that in order to find out, you should build a simple test box and measure your frequency response to find the perfect spot for that sub, and the direction it faces.