sergeremi

New TSX (2005 6MT w/ Nav) audio install impressions

Finally a review… warning, it’s a bit long.

After much consternation, researching and a lot of excellent help from elduderino I settled on the following setup.

CDT HD-62 Component system up front (3/4” MDF spacers were used, no clearance issues)
MB Quart RCE269 (woofers only) 6x9s in the rear deck. (Rear doors disconnected)

All powered by a JL 450/4 Amp. The stock HU is feeding the amp directly (no LOCs or step-down converters used).

Everything was installed at a local pro shop. After some initial install issues which was amicably resolved by the installer and some fine tuning myself I think things have settled in enough to provide a decent review and impressions.

First off the sound staging has improved dramatically. With the stock system the sound stage was located just behind my head (with no fading). With the new components the sound stage has been placed in front right on top of the dash. Still not ideal but a vast improvement especially considering the components are all in the factory locations. However the vocals and some midrange stuff has become a bit more localized. Sitting in the driver's seat the soundstage moves to the left a bit, putting things kinda in front of me but definitely more heavily oriented to the left especially if you glance over to the driver side tweeter you can tell the sound is coming from there. The same on the passenger's side and you look to the right. Now if I sit in the back seat on either side the soundstage is just about perfect. I’ve been looking at some of the imaging systems CDT offers to maybe get a better placement of the soundstage. And that’s kind of a bummer. In your normal car audio system with full range all over the place imaging isn’t a real concern. It’s all about loudness and some people are fine with that. But when you start imaging and setting up a soundstage then it becomes very annoying if everything isn’t just right.
Anyway…

Clarity at volume is pristine. Using the Gladiator and Red Violin soundtrack, Diana Krall – Look Scenes, Michael Jackson - HIStory Disc 1, BEP – Elephunk and the Eagles – Hell Freezes Over as testing material everything was crystal all the way up to volume level 40. Though, I’ve found that the 6x9s are fine substitutes for the low end at low to mid volume (10 to 25) they don’t work very well above that for getting that low end “punch”. And the rear deck vibrates like crazy but the doors sound solid except for a vibration on the driver’s door near the door lock.

Midbass, midrange and highs are sublime! Taking elduderino’s advice opting for silk tweeters in the dash location they are just at the brightness level I can enjoy (guess I'm a more laid back person). I'm pretty sure had I gone with a metal it would have been too harsh for my liking.

The not so great. I prefer a bit more low boom that I don't think I'll be able to attain without a sub. Playing classical and acoustical stuff is outstanding, but for the jazz, R&B, and your overcooked pop and hip hop, the lack of lows is apparent. With the volume at 28 or below everything sounds great, but I can start to tell the lack of low oomph above 28. It might have to do with the lack of deadening material or you know an actual subwoofer. But I can live without it if it means sacrificing trunk space.

Some other technical stuff. I am getting a slight alternator whine even with a GLI at the amp. Though it's only really audible, barely, at a volume of 1 to 5. And oddly, it occurs with the radio off though more noticeably than with the radio on with the volume set at 0. For me it's really not an issue because I can't hear it when the music is playing even when trying to listen for it.

And the bad (yes there’s actually a bad to the setup) I’ve been experiencing some discomfort with the volume up past 12 for extended periods of driving. There’s some sort pressure on the ears like I’m sitting a little too close to the speakers. The feeling is like when you’re flying on the plane and you can’t pop your ears. Very annoying to say the least. I’ve been doing some research and it seems the issue is too much sound energy or output in the midrange. Apparently this is a common problem in tighter spaces with highly amplified sound and compounded by the fact the surface in the car (leather seating) only exacerbates the situation (nothing to absorb the “sound energy” or resonances much). I’m not sure what to do about this as it will put a serious damper on enjoying the new system if I can’t find a solution. Has anybody experienced this? I may have to also checkout the CDT zone crossovers. But it may also be how I have things setup and too much power is going to produce the lower frequencies.

But not to end on such a sour note, overall I’m pleased with the new set up. But, considering the outlay of cash, honestly I was expecting sonic perfection and I didn’t quite get it. A significant improvement to be sure in quality, clarity and imaging just not the expected perfection. But there are possible solutions out there that could correct the issues for not too much extra, but still.

Anyway, I hope this will help some other owners out there thinking about upgrading the audio system.

btw - I’ve a brand new JL 300/4 amp I’m trying to offload if anyone is interested.

elduderino

Translation: After he went back and convinced them to take the unneeded LOCs out, the constant loud background hiss went away : )

Excellent review, thanks very much for writing it and sharing your impressions, and glad I was able to be of help. Thanks also for listing the music used - have to go get one or two of those.

Couple of observations/suggestions:

1) Re: midrange. First off, if your spacers don't mate up to the back of the door, then your 6"s are in a leaky baffle, and as such may be rolling off higher than they should/have to, thus making the midrange peaky and louder than usual. How low is the amp xover set for the F speakers? I am wondering if getting more midbass into the fronts would help. Another old-school thing to try is reversing polarity to the mids or the tweets (not both) and seeing if that helps any.

2) Re: engine noise with system off. Either that amp is NOT connected to the HU RTO wire and is on as long as the key is on (not too unlikely from a guy that used an LOC) or your speaker xovers are picking up the noise. I forget where they are, but double-check your amp LED with the system off. If it's still on, I recommend another visit.

3) Re: low end of the 6x9's. Yes, the 6x9's do not perform as well as a larger sub in a sealed box... that said, I have a couple of suggestions (which you already may have tried in your tuning).

Re-reading the 450/4 manual, you can set the xover for the 6x9's at "BP". This uses the high-pass frequency for your front channels (3 + 4) as the low-pass frequency for the rears. If you set the switch to BP, the slope switch to 12dB, and the freq dial to "50", you would be installing a "subsonic" filter for the 6x9s, but remember, this filter would only be 6dB down at 38 Hz. (12dB/octave=12dB quieter at 25 Hz, and 6dB at 38). You could then restore some of your bass as needed with the bass boost knob.

It may seem counterintuitive to try to get more low "slam" by removing the lowest notes, but we know the infinite-baffle mounted woofers won't handle the lowest notes, so if we can keep the drivers from traveling too far and sounding bad and distorted, perhaps the rest of the bass at higher volumes will sound better. Hey, it might not work, but it's easy enough to try, and free to boot.

For rattles, I removed the 6x9 grilles this weekend and stuffed egg-crate foam into the space between the R deck trim and the metal underneath, as much as I could, all around the 6x9s. Worked pretty well, far fewer noises at high volumes from the R deck.

As far as the discomfort is concerned, that might be midrange related, as I note, but it is also not too unusual with very low distortion systems. We play them louder than we think we do, the lack of distortion fools us, so we turn it up loud enough to hurt. Maybe that's not it, but I know that listener fatigue has set in with many people who just didn't know how loud they were listening.

Tsx536

Where did you get the egg-crate foam?
I can hear a rattle on certain bass notes coming from the rear deck. I'm thinking about doing the same thing as you. Hopefully that will help out.

Do you think this will still help out eventhough I have a sub in a sealed box? Right now I have the 6x9s in but unplugged.

elduderino

Can't hurt. I got mine as packaging for something I bought on eBay, but google says:

http://www.cameronpackaging.com/egg_crate_foam.html

sergeremi

That may be the case. The reason I took it to a “professional” installer was to have things professionally done; something I didn’t have the time nor tools to accomplish myself. I guess warning flags should have gone up when discussing sound staging, imaging and whatnot caused glazed looks. Cosmetically the install was excellent. Acoustically and it seems electronically, not quite the level I expected. I think the positives of the system are a function of the components, the negatives, which are severely diluting my enjoyment, stems from the install.

I’m thinking this weekend I’m going to have to take the door panels off and double check the installation. While I’m at it maybe I’ll check the wiring to the HU to see how they connected to the amp. Something I shouldn’t have to do…

The amp xover is currently set at a high pass of 60Hz with a 24dB slope. I adjusted that from a previous setting of 75Hz/24dB slope. The speaker frequency is rated to 55Hz. I wonder if I should just defeat the xover at the amp completely and send the full range and let the passive crossovers do the work.

I checked this morning on the amp and it is ON (LED glows green) with the radio off but the key in the ignition and the car on (engine running or just the electrical systems). And I’m getting a loud pop sound when switching the radio on from being off when car is on. There’s a slight pop when the radio is on and I turn the car on.

Yeah, I’ve tried “tuning” as much as I could with the head unit. Depending on this midbass issue I think maybe a sub would be a better route. I wonder what the best space minimizing option would be while still maintaining sound quality.

I saw the part about the band pass and forgot about it when I had Ch 1&2 going to the fronts. Maybe I’ll have review that and see if it helps.

Possibly. I think in all my “testing” I might have been playing the music louder than was safe for the time period I was listening. Right now listener fatigue sets in almost immediately. My ears feel “cooked” so I’ve decided to just turn of the radio off while driving for a couple of days to see if I can get things feeling normal again. I don’t know if it’s because of possible (god I hope temporary) increased sensitivity to midrange frequencies or just some psychosomatic issues and being overly critical of the system (trying too hard to hear).

pandimus

Where did you install the amp? do you have pics of the amp install?

sergeremi

The amp was installed in the trunk. I can post pictures tonight when I get off work.

elduderino

I wouldn't run the fronts full-range, just because the passives (AFAIK) don't address the low end of the mid-woofer at all - only the top end of the mid-woofer, and the low end of the tweeter. I think the bandpass trick may not be that effective if the xover is already down to 60 for the fronts...I would want to get at least 1/2 octave out of those 6x9's... but again, I would use 12dB on the fronts and 24db on the rears, giving the fronts more low-end weight and keeping the stage farther forward, and allowing the xover point for the front to be raised a hair (70 maybe?)

Unfortunately, with install shops (and individual installers), there are three kinds: hacks, engine builders, and mechanics. The hacks need no explanation. The engine builders do beautiful fab work and cosmetic integration, but are not audio enthusiasts and don't quite get into "tweaky" audiophile approaches to things (many fear electricity, honestly, and avoid any theory about it). The mechanics are enthusiasts who like theory and can be great problem solvers, but may not be great fabricators like the engine builders (and who, often being self-taught, can have their heads totally up their asses, too).

A good/lucky shop has at least one engine builder and one mechanic. If the owner of a shop falls into one of those categories, he usually asssumes that his is the "right" way, and all the work ends up getting done that way...

You might be interested in "Blink" by Malcolm Gladwell and what it says about listening evaluation (indirectly) and how our brains work as far as immediate responses vs. evaluated responses. Also, this column was good: http://www.jazztimes.com/reviews/aud...fm?ReviewID=16

sergeremi

Here are the pics of the amp install...



I'll inline the rest as I haven't had the chance to resize them (1600 x 1200)

Overall Trunk Space

Battery and Ground Wire used

Battery Ground Wire coming in

Speaker and Line In

elduderino

It REALLY looks like Ch 3 and 4 are plugged into a Ground Loop Isolator.

sergeremi

They are... it was put in-line to the amp. Was that incorrect to try to deal with the alternator whine?

elduderino

No, fairly common, just thought that I could recognize those molded RCA ends that don't match the nicer ones...

But since the GLI didn't work... the other two things I would look into:

1) Extending the OEM amp ground to the amp and inserting it with the amp ground wire. I am sure that the OEM amp ground is directly tied into the HU ground.

2) Lowering the gain on the F channels. If the gain is all the way down and you STILL have noise, hmmm... but if it's not all the way down yet, drop it to the floor and retest. If dropping it to the floor works but you lose too much volume, you need a clean line driver.

3) I really hope they didn't stuff unused RCA cable on top of the Airbag ECU...

4) If all else fails, maybe this is a job for one of those Jensen Iso-max $118 GLIs... but I hope not.

DerrickM

I'm extremely interested in whatever we all discover about listening fatigue here. I've been battling this myself for several months, and the latest upgrades and settings have pretty much eliminitated it for me. (But I've never really come to understand it).

First, I haven't put my system on an RTA yet to see how the actual response looks. My friend says he's been outbid on four or five rackmount analyzers, so I wait.

So, is your system full range up front, and only bass from the rear deck? Did you have tweeter settings on the F crossovers, and how did you set them? (Don't CDT's have a ton of settings?)

They say that our hearing is most sensitive from something like 2k to 6k, and I wonder if toning that range down might help. (Do you have an eq?)

My buddy (the one with the recording studio) says that listening fatigue is something that people talk about when buying speakers and studio monitors, but there's really no way to measure it.

A couple of thoughts--first, are you tweeters broken in yet? After you've been playing them for a while (20-30 hours?), let us all know if the effect is the same or less. Also, if you're still getting that same feeling after that timeframe, experiment by covering the tweets with some cloth for a couple of days. (Just tape it to the door--nothing fancy).

Please keep us posted!

elduderino

Uh, I just had a question: When they mounted the amp there, they put a board underneath, right? Cause those drywall screws are pointing right at the gas tank... it looks like there's a board underneath, but thought it was worth double-checking.

All good points by Derrick, especially with the dash-mounted tweets...

DerrickM

Hey, getting perfect sound in a car is a very difficult thing! With non-sealed enclosures for the mids, metal that resonates, lots of glass and plastic for noise to bounce off of, and a constantly changing background noise floor... Perfection is very hard to come by. I have about $5k worth of equipment in mine, and I couldn't call it perfect.

It sounds like if you can solve the harshness issue, you're pretty much there. The bass issue is to be expected at high volume levels without a dedicated subwoofer.

My only suggestion would be to sound-deaden the reardeck and anything else back there that could vibrate.

If you decide to get a sub at some point, you can make it so it can be removed when you need the rest of the trunk. (Mine is .85cf and removeable).

sergeremi

Derrick what have you done to deal with the listening fatigue? Yeah, it’s full range (well down to 55Hz) up front and I’m still trying to figure out the back but yeah something like 100 – 75 Hz and below to the rear. The Xover (Sat 560) settings I saw only dealt with matching to the right speaker size 5.25 or 6.5. I believe they were set for the 6.5. There are tons of settings on their zone xovers and imaging systems.

I think the tweets might have been broken in. I figure the system has been running for at least 30hrs. I’ve found that if I plug one ear the feeling disappears. I’ll have to look into the cloth thing. I assumed that it would the lower frequencies causing the “pressurized” feeling. Maybe the highs resonating too much since the tweets are firing directly into the windshield?

This is my first attempt at a true sound quality set up in a car. Perhaps it’s probably better just to have full ranges all over to compensate for the many SQ destroying variables. Wind noise, road noise, engine noise, traffic noise, interior surfaces, speaker placement, etc. It’s certainly more economical at least if you just want a louder cleaner sound and can live without staging and imaging in your car.

And I've discovered driving around with the radio off that the stock tire are horrible in terms of road noise. I don't know if it's the type of roads out here or not, but I'm a bit surprised at the volume of it. Or does the TSX have less sound deadning material to save on costs?

What does .85cf mean? Is the effort to remove it cumbersome?

elduderino

He means .85 of a cubic foot - i.e., small.

What you are describing is not terribly common, so I wouldn't make too many general statements ...

I'd suggest trying an experiment. Get some transparent film, cut it into squares, and put it on the glass above the tweeters, and see how much the sound changes.

DerrickM

What did I do to deal with listening fatique... Well, the first thing I did is replace ALL of the speakers! (I know you already have CDT HD62's, which are excellent speakers I'm told, so you needn't worry about that step). After getting excellent quality speakers up front, I still felt they were too bright. After the speakers were in the rear I felt that the problem was gone. It's been over a week, and I haven't felt that over-brightness since.

First, let's see if we're really talking about the same thing. You said it feels like a pressure? So, it doesn't feel like over brightness or harshness? And I assume it doesn't matter if the windows are up or down? Your tweets are in the dash, right? Cover 'em with rags to see if it changes the feeling. If not, I'm wondering if maybe one of the mids are out of phase? Can you relate this discomfort to a certain frequency range?

DerrickM

No, removing my sub isn't hard--it's a box with an amp screwed into the side of it. The power attachments are a single dryer plug (you know, 220 volts for a clothes dryer), and the two rca jacks. I can dig up a picture if you want to see it. (It's hideously ugly, but gets the job done. Then again the whole inside of my trunk is pretty raw--as Elduderino jokingly pointed out...) : )

DerrickM

Here's a picture of my trunk. Among other things it shows how big a small box is.

I can feel the wisecracks coming already...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v6...unkLabeled.jpg

elduderino

Oh, that was your trunk.

sergeremi

I think it's definitely pressure, but I'm not sure if it was caused by or exacerbated by the audio install. And it didn’t really matter if the windows were up or down, but it was more acute with the windows up. I’d say the discomfort comes from somewhere in the midrange.

I’d assume overly bright sounds or harshessness would leave a ringing sensation, not necessarily the pressurized feeling. I’m pretty sure it midrange or midbass related so maybe within 100Hz to 3900Hz . Things seem to be calming down a bit since I’ve been driving without the radio on. Now I’ve got the volume at 8 and can’t really discern any of the pressurized effect. But I’m gonna wait until things feel completely back to normal before I try to isolate the issue.

In fact I think I might want to go get my hearing tested to make sure I didn’t do any damage, because riding around at the low volume level I realized that at the level of 15, it was really louder than I thought and if there were some irregularities at the higher volume it may have done some damage of which the pressurized feeling would by a symptom.

Maybe I’m being overly paranoid but this is the first time this has ever happened to me and it’s freakin me out a little.

Tsx536

esk

I was thinking of trying to install an amplifier in the trunk. I'm wondering what's the best way to run the power cable from the battery through the firewall and into the trunk. Should I keep the power separate from the speaker wires (power with left floor wire harness and speakers on the right). The wiring diagram for the car shows the rear speaker wires on the right floor wire harness. Elduderino mentioned using the fuse/relay box near the battery to run the power cable and I'd be interested to hear a little more detail on how that would work. The directions for the AMP indicate 4 AWG wire for power and the fuse should be connected within 18 inches of the positive battery post. I downloaded the directions for a jl e6450 but I haven't bought any components. I'd like to install the wiring harness first before buying anything. Thanks for any advice.

DerrickM

Have you had anybody else ride around with you and listen to it? Does this feeling persist after you're out of your car?

DerrickM

And what's that supposed to mean, Mister?!

elduderino

Maybe some temporary tinnitus from not realizing how loud it was? (Where is your F gain, anyway?)

(I tell ya, it's funny how we learn to equate distortion with volume...)

pandimus

Sorry for not replying quicker, but thanks for the pics..

I of course have the other amp mentioned the alpine mrv-f340, I am planning on mounting it under the rear decklid in the trunk, i am also considering making some 6x9 adapters, so i could use 6.5 speakers in the rear. I will let you know how it goes..

elduderino

I just forgot it was your trunk... when you referred to me making cracks, I was like, "me?" : )

Must have been repressed memory... : )

elduderino

Yes! Death to by-nines! : )

pandimus

I am glad you approve

I do think my wallet approves too...

davestar

I have this same component set - silk tweeters, 560 crossover, etc (actually, didn't you PM me about these a few weeks back?). anyway, i'm not experiencing the "pressure" problems that you've noted. my bet is that you're slightly paranoid. :wink:

anyway, in an attempt to be helpful, i had some engine noise problems. it was completely and totally picked up by the crossovers, which i mounted on either side of the stock amp (behind and below the radio if you haven't seen it open before). you probably want to find out where the crossovers were installed if the noise continues to bother you.

also, my tweeters sit upon the stock tweeter grills, pointing more or less at my ears. i'm fairly impressed by the imaging in my system. maybe the fact that sound from your tweeters doesn't have a coherent path to your ears (bouncing off the window and whatnot) is causing a degredation to your imaging. your tweeters should've come with hardware for different mounting configurations... look into trying something different. it's not hard at all to change on your own.

sergeremi

I did pm you about the speaker depth.

After driving around with the radio off, at low volume and at a normal volume for the past week, I'm definitely not paranoid. I'm certain now that whenever I get in the car, radio off or on, volume up or down the pressure feeling is present. But it's more pronounced as the volume goes up and more acute when the CD player is inuse. But now I'm not so sure what's causing the feeling.

Right now I don't know what to do. After a few minutes out of the car things seem to return to normal. But when I get back in the car the feeling returns.

Could this be some electrical problem caused by wiring or maybe it is the crossovers and their location picking up some stuff? I remember the installer saying something about the kickpanels, but I don't know if that was the door or in the front right under the dash.

But I guess I can't really be sure unless I take everything out. This sucks.

elduderino

I started in car audio in 1987, and this is totally outside my experience...and my tweeters point straight up (so that's not it...)

Based on what you're describing, I would seriously suggest getting your ears checked. Make sure you didn't hurt something?

Just for kicks, find a store with an RTA and check for some strange response peak.

DerrickM

Yeah, this is pretty strange. If you feel this with the radio off, I have a hard time attributing it to the new system; yet I assume you didn't feel this before the install.

Do you know anybody in your area that can ride in the car with you and give you an opinion?

This is a total mystery.

Did somebody post a reply earlier asking where your crossovers were mounted? I can see the coils picking up some noise, even with the stereo off, if they are in a poor location.

I assume this is driving you crazy, and you're ready to try anything? Try disconnecting the speakers for one day (esp. disconnect from crossovers) to prove that whatever it is can be fixed/reproduced.