pohljm

Ok, So i seem to have come down with a small case of audio upgrade fever!

I am completely healthy! I swear! But i feel a really slight fever. All of you with the full blown disease (and you know who you are) feel free to offer suggestions for treatment. So far I have been able to just get by with almost no symptoms even though you all been infecting me for years!

I am all about home treatment and I thought I had this thing licked! I have seen the full blown disease run rampant with some even succumbing to dynaudio and zapco and active 3-ways (wait that sounds kinda fun!) and infinite baffles and processors up the A$$.

But I thought I was well protected.......... I thought I had it all figured out.

Treatment plan:

Good 5 channel amplifier tapped pre OEM amp. possibly JL XD700/5
good foundation. Keep center channel on OEM for voice prompts.
Use OEM speaker wires for ease.

Good 6.5" component separates for front stage. ID? Hertz? open to ideas?
Keep OEM rear deck speakers for fill. Most economical I I dont sit back there! Plus easy upgrade if needed later?

Infinite baffle for efficiency and space savings, plus my kids would think it looks cool inside and outside cabin. Or corner loaded box ala Uncald4 for space savings primarily. Once again ID, perhaps ID Max seems a great value.

Dont think I need line drivers or processor it seems like that amplifier plays well with low level signal from HU?

Unfortunately I have seen others obtain their treatments from DIYMA and I have now seen that treatment option, but I really want to keep it simple.

All of a sudden I am seeing Massive NX5, ID5800, Elemental Design 9.5 etc. And I am starting to twitch. Does my treatment plan seem sound? I do not want this to become a disease! I want 92% of the benefits but only want to pay for 65% I thought I was on the right track, but I am feeling weak.

Please help me get well with a minimum of exposure.

stevemk07

I feel your pain. Hang in there, someone will help you.

jda123

You only need 3 channels if you are just amping some components and a sub. Unless you really want some super-ill sickness (near death for most), just use the crossovers that come with the components.

A really bad-ass 4 channel would run some beefy components and a sub. I still usually let my subs have their own amps.

I think that you can do better for your money than Massives.

...do you have a budget for treatment?

pohljm

^^ I will be looking at picking up quality pieces when they become available on DIYMA, etc. Champagne taste on a beer budget. As well as two kids in college! I think i would like the option to run some rear fill so the extra channels would be nice. Leaning towards Image Dynamics equipment. want a small footprint amp so I can get it under the seat, looking at JL.

Trunk Monkey

iTrader: (1)

Figure out a budget first

pohljm

Like to be less than 1k

eggyhustles

So IB is the flavor of the month thing, now?

pohljm

^^^ IB is purely based upon efficiency and space savings. I also mentioned corner loaded box, but I think running the smaller output amp I may prefer an IB setup. Speaker brands are just based upon what I was seeing available for good prices. JL amp primarily for footprint. Not really locked into anything.

jda123

I am a bargain shopper too. I got my one of my current Utopia No 7 sets on the local craigs list for $750. I got my other set in a used civic at a police auction with some focal amps, JL W7 subs and a 1000/1 for about $2300 after fees - I had to replace one of the midrange in this set. I got some older esotar 2 ways for $300, Hybrid Legatia for roundabout $200 (I forgot because I hated them). My audison and zapco amps were used for steals too. I guess my point is to be patient and look around. There are not really any super awesome deals on DIYMA since most people out there know what they are dealing with, but you can do better than retail and usually be assured that the previous owner was responsible. Cash talks when dealing locally - just test out stuff before you buy it. I doubt that you will really find any great deals on JL amps - most people know what they paid for those... the guy that I bought my Zapco DC1000.4 from told me that his 300/4 and 500/1 were the best amp on the planet and had no idea what the Zapco was - his ex-girlfriend bought it for him and he thought that it was junk.

I was not impressed with the output of a single 15" IB sub in my TL. A pair was OK - a fine setup, sounded good and was plenty loud. I had a SBP 15 and a FI IB3 - if you took the Pepsi challenge, you could never tell which one I had in. If you build a baffle, scoot a single 15" all the way over so that if you buy a second sub you can use the baffle again (I learned the hard way). I ended up going back to the sealed corner box that I had before that.

ID CXS are very solid components at a reasonable price. They make a 2 ohm version if you need to stretch your amps out a bit.

I hate cars

If the single 15 in IB was not enough, it would not be enough in a box either. SPL is determined by displacement only, when talking sealed and IB. If output is an issue, you either need more displacement, more power, or the trunk is not sealed from the cabin good enough. I wish this myth that IB is not as loud as sealed would go away, I see it all over DIYMA. If you're not running a subsonic filter and you have music with 15hz content, sure, you'll bottom the sub with very little power and the output in the rest of the range will suffer. With a smartly setup SS filter, output capability is the same only IB requires less power.

The Fi and AE are complete opposites. The AE has ultra low inductance, extremely light cone and soft suspension which gives it a ton of efficiency and that pro audio like quickness. It has a low Qts which enables you to run them in a smaller trunk or multiples without getting that "boomy" sound. It gets loooow with very little power and will play into the midrange if desired. Inductance variation with excursion is very low.

The IB3 uses a heavy cone, stiff suspension giving it low efficiency and a high Qts which will end up being too high in the trunk of a car especially with multiples or once you put stuff in the trunk. It will excel in pure output with 30mm of xmax and who knows how much xmech. It should be capable of shaking the car apart but it's going to require double the power just to come close to the output of the IB15 and a ton of power to surpass it.

I'm not saying for a second that specs can tell you exactly how they will sound, I hate it when people believe that kind of thing but I've seen too many people complain that the Fi didn't have real good SQ and pretty much everyone loves the AE. I would love to try the Fi for myself if I had the time or money.

Maybe if the crossover point was below 50hz it would be harder to hear a difference. I like to cross the subs over higher, 80-90hz and above 50hz is where it's easiest to hear the differences for me.

I think the part bolded is very important. Not having to run a lot of power solves several issues from power compression and distortion from the high power to not having to upgrade the car's electrical system. A single 92db efficient IB15 is going to produce 92db from only 1 watt of power and that's before cabin gain! There are many instances where a pair of them won't require more than 2-5w to get decently loud.

I'm not in any way trying to make anyone mad or start a pissing match, just stating what I've seen.

pohljm

ok?
I am confident that one sub will be adequate for me!
but what about my plan?

jda123

What is your plan?

I also forgot to mention that there are probably better boxes than the uncald4 if you choose a 12. It might be OK for a 10. You can also build one if you are on a budget - it is easy, just messy and smelly.

The trunk and corner gain in my TL with my corner box with 5.something db. If the something matters, I can look in my garage notebook when I get home. It is significant in this car.

niebur3

Plan? We don't need no stinkin plan !

Call me and we will get it all worked out....I promise!

I hate cars

My point was to pick out an efficient large sub if going IB. Efficiency is way more important that power handling and especially important in your case with a relatively small amp. With IB and an efficient sub you can potentially require 1/4 the power for the same output as the usual 84db efficient sub in a small sealed box.

Trunk Monkey

iTrader: (1)

That JL xd700/5 would be good because you wouldn't need to use a processor. At some place called Techtronics.com, they have it for $400. Not sure if that's a reputable place or not, but everywhere else online seems to be around $500-$550. Not sure if ID has a 5-channel that accepts balanced, but I'm sure if you contact Niebur3 he'll get ya set up.

The ID cxs62 components are great for the price and you can run active on that amp....meaning you can save even more money and just buy the cx62 mid and xs28 tweeter as separates. If you decide you just want to run them on their passive x-over, I've got mine that I'm not using. You have A LOT of options here so it might be good to listen to what brands are near you if you can. There's SO many 6.5" or 7" mids that I want to try that seem to get a lot of praise over at DIYMA. There's also a lot of great budget tweeters that can dig down to the 2kHz area for a 2-way. There's a set of ID xs65's and Morel MT-12 tweeters over at DIYMA for $250. Haven't heard either, but I think I remember the xs65's being the more midrange focused driver and the ID cx62 being more midbass focused.

As far as a sub, you have tons of options again lol. If you're positive on IB then your choices are little more limited. To bad I didn't see this earlier...there was pair of AE IB15's on DIYMA a few days ago, but they sold in like 20 minutes lol. The JBL w15GTI (and 12") is pretty cheap online nowadays if you wanted to go that route. They're about 10.5" deep, but are supposedly great subs.

I know Jerry (Niebur3) is getting ready (not sure when he's going to do it) but he's testing a bunch of 6.5"/7" mids. I think most, if not all of them are the top notch drivers though so it might be out of your range. Can't wait to see all that Jerry! Your midrange test was a great read and maybe I'll get to use some of those drivers soon.

Trunk Monkey

iTrader: (1)

Oh yeah...don't forget deadening

eggyhustles

Or..

Port it

eggyhustles

DOn't even know why they made a 2 ohm set.

Should be the same spl wise as the 4 ohm set.

You'll use more power, but the 2 ohm set is less efficient..it evens itself out.

Trunk Monkey

iTrader: (1)

That's one thing I still don't understand. You all had that long thread over at DIYMA about IB being the same SPL levels as a boxed setup, but there are still quite a few people that say they changed from IB to sealed or ported and it was a huge difference. I don't understand most of the stuff talked about in that thread, but just wondering. Maybe those people had a super leaky baffle or something

eggyhustles

What people forget is bandwidth..

IF IB was truly just as loud as sealed, more people would have IB setups. What it looks like on paper doesn't matter, imo. In car response is what matters.

People rave about IB being just as loud, but need 2+ 15's for adequate output..

Trunk Monkey

iTrader: (1)

What do you mean by bandwidth?

I hate cars

You're right, in car response is what matters, that's why I like IB so much. How many IB setups have you owned and how many subs have you used in both sealed and IB in the same car, same amp, etc? I have and there's a reason I've stuck with it.

People have a hard time figuring out how to stuff a box in a trunk, to most IB seems too complicated and to others they believe myths like IB isn't as loud as sealed.

Here's a pair of IB15 and a trio of ID Maxes IB, both with incredible frequency response with no EQ in an Accord. It does not get any better than this, guys. So there's your ultra flat FR, high bandwidth.

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/629045-post1.html
You're looking at it the wrong way. Many people go with multiple large drivers because they can, not because they need to. You can easily fit a pair of 15s and take up next to zero trunk space so it becomes a matter of why not. I also like it because excursion is reduced to practically nothing and efficiency goes up. My subs are always well within their linear range and usually have no visible excursion. It's a win-win for SQ, for SPL, and for efficiency.

Frequency range. IB actually has a wider bandwidth than the others because it does not have a mechanical high pass filter (the box) to limit low end. High end is limited by the sub itself (mostly inductance), not the enclosure in sealed, IB, and ported. A bandpass enclosure limits the upper frequency.

I don't know of anyone who "needs" 2 15s for "adequate" output. My 12W6 had just as much output IB as it did sealed as long as I used the subsonic filter. Again, with IB it's ridiculously easy to get insane levels of 20hz output which requires a ton of displacement (cone area and excursion) which also makes it insanely easy to push the mechanical limits of the subs.

You can throw any speaker in IB, set the subsonic somewhere around 40hz/12db to mimic a sealed box and feed it all the power you could in a sealed box and have the same SPL and the best thing is the sub would be receiving less power overall since you would have the 40hz filter cutting power down low so you avoid all of the problems associated with high power.

IB has the same output potential as sealed across the frequency range but there are different ways of going about it. If you run it with no subsonic filter or a very low frequency with a shallow slope, the low end will get just as loud as the same pair of 15s sealed but require much less power. Using no subsonic however limits how much power you can feed them without bottoming them out. Limiting this power limits it across the entire bandwidth. Setting it up this way can mean less SPL in the 50-100hz range than a sealed box. There are two easy ways around this.

For example, if 200w will push the subs to their mechanical limits at 20hz, that's all the power you can run to them even though thermally they might take 500w and above 30hz they can take the full 500w without bottoming. You have 2 choices to "fix" this:

1)Run a subsonic filter at 30hz so that you can push the full 500w to them. This works fine but some people like the REALLY low stuff. This is still a good way of doing it because you're electronically lowering the power via the crossover instead of making the sub ultra inefficient via the sealed box. Would you rather limit excursion by turning the power down or by making the sub fight an air spring?

2)Run a ton of cone area and a lower subsonic filter (or no filter) with enough power to push them to their mechanical limits at 20hz and still have plenty of output in the upper sub bass due to sheer cone area.

This is so simple yet people still argue. A box is a high pass filter, limiting the low end by stopping excursion. With IB you're taking that filter away. The easiest way I know to explain it is your midbass speakers. If you cross the little 6.5" at 40hz you can't run as much power to them without damaging them so SPL suffers. If you cross them at 80hz you can crank the volume up much higher without damage. Everyone seems to understand how the high pass filter on the IB midbasses in the door interrelate to SPL but not when it comes to IB subs when it's the same thing. If you understand how and why we limit the midbass high pass, you understand subwoofer infinite baffle.

Going with a pair of 15s IB would be like installing a pair of 10" midbasses in the doors in place of the 6.5" to play 40hz and up instead of keeping the volume down or raising the highpass. You get the best of all worlds, much better low end, SPL, and power handling.

So again, you can run the SS filter on the IB setup to mimic a sealed box and run a ton of power and pick up SPL in the upper frequencies or you can enjoy one of IB's best features, ultra low, clean, efficient, effortless bass and a ton of cone area so you can crank it up at those low frequencies and still have good output in the upper frequencies.

Ported and bandpass are different animals but IB is the same as sealed, just much more power efficient on the low end which requires a little more thought into the design and setup.

Bandpass would be my choice for SPL and it can sound very good as well. All else being equal, ported won't get as loud as a bandpass but it can have a wider bandwidth and it will get louder than sealed and IB. You will need EQ to make a ported setup blend well since it will be bottom heavy and group delay can be pretty bad. Obviously ported and bandpass will take up a lot more trunk room than sealed.

In the end, when talking sealed and IB, displacement makes SPL, nothing more. Cone excursion at any given frequency will determine output. Up higher in the frequencies, the air spring has less resistance on the cone so efficiencies are close to the same. Down low with large excursions where the air spring limits cone motion in a box, IB is free to displace a ton of air with little resistance.

niebur3

^^^VERY well said...or written, I guess ....lol

I hate cars

Thanks!

An old discussion When does a $50 sub sound like a $600 sub?:
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/diyma-sq-forum-technical-advanced/67835-when-does-%2450-sub-sound-like-%24600-sub.html

eggyhustles

I need to make it to Cali and here one of these setups, lol.

I havent heard an IB setup(yet i guess) that has gobs of output from 80 down to it's natural roll off..

Sealed? Yes.
Ported? Yes.


http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/629045-post1.html

^^ i like these setups

eggyhustles

Pat is the man

He helped me pick out my front stage

I hate cars

I wish you could hear mine. There's a guy flying down from NY to LA this weekend and stopping by to hear mine. I'm a little nervous and sometimes I don't know how to tune it for different people. I can make it bang really hard or make it smoother, different people like different sounds. Right now I don't have to choose between banging hard or reaching down to 15hz because I don't have enough power from the HD900/5 to hit the mechanical limits.

Obviously IB isn't the best solution for every scenario. A GOOD 12 in a ported box will get as loud as mine at the tuning frequency but the IB will have more output above and below the tuning frequency.

I modeled an IDMax12 ported tuned to 27hz and with 1,000w on the ID and 500w each on the IB15s, the IB15s are only 2db louder at 30hz. The difference is much greater above and below those frequencies but for pure low end output, they're not that much different for that narrow range.

Tuned to 45hz, the Max is capable of 2.5db more output than the pair of IB15s but it hits full excursion before 30hz.

I just modeled the IB15s with no subsonic and they can take 300w at the mechanical limits at 20hz. SPL at 50hz was 120db.

Adding just a 20hz/12db filter allowed the full 500w to be delivered without hitting the mechanical limits and SPL at 50hz went up to 122.5db. This is why people say IB is not as loud because chances are it won't be without a subsonic filter to limit excursion down low.

What surprised the crap out of me was when I did the 12W6 IB and fired it up for the first time. Excursion seemed no different for a given SPL and it was so smooth and went so low with little effort. Top end was about the same as sealed. I expected to see a lot of movement and no output.

jda123

I have had both.

The IB was not nearly as loud as the sealed box from 20 up to 100, in steps of 10hz, as well as driving around for a month. I did not test the same sub in either situation since this seemed stupid to me - I tested what some call "best of breed" in both situations. 2 IB subs were about the same as the sealed sub. I don't give a shit why, don't have any issues with power, don't care about what the web says, don't pay too much attention to the academics and have never trusted modeling software to get within 50% with all of the various in-car variables. I am, after all, a dogmatic dinosaur... who went through the trouble of buying IB subs & installing them, borrowing a O'scope, borrowing a good db meter, bought resistors to test wattages and spent almost 2 days testing it out.

I also think that most of the differences in IB subs are academic... the IB (or should I say large volume somewhat sealed) method in general is the difference. The AE and the FI are supposed to be polar opposites, but sounded identical when installed the same way in my car, but the FI would get louder and with more power. The Focals sounded the best, but were not as loud being only 13s.

I have said this a million times... it does not matter. You can get either loud enough, so focus on other things that might matter to you. There are so many other awesome points about either setup to discuss.

If I ever do IB long term in a car, it will be no less than 2 15s.

Anyway, I don't care to argue, or convince anybody of anything. This is what I found in my own car to be taken or left.

pohljm

Does anyone know if the muting of the sound is done by the Headunit, or by the OEM amp? I would like my setup to still mute for the voice prompts.?

jda123

The amp does nothing but amp. All of the sound is handled in the HU.

I hate cars

Everything in your post from not being able to hear the difference between two polar opposite subs to not being loud point to the cabin and trunk not being sealed properly from one another. Like I've said, I've used the exact same sub in both IB and sealed and there was no difference in SPL. From what I can tell, you never measured the same sub in IB and in a sealed box, you're comparing a sealed sub with a different sub in IB so you really can't make a comparison.

You haven't stated subsonic settings, whether or not you tried each sub both sealed and IB, how you determined the limits of each sub, how well everything was sealed, etc.

I ran a Tempest X right before the AEs and there could not be more of a difference in sound. To say most of the differences are academic is very misleading. IB is the great equalizer though, it can make a cheap sub sound much better and it can make a good sub sound great.

stevemk07

Isn't there a processor in the amp? I thought it optimized the amp for the speakers.

jda123

The amp cuts the signal and boosts/cuts frequencies, but the muting, blending or HFL, navi, etc. is all done in the HU.

I did play (not so much test/measure) some 12" RF T1, 13" Focals and 12" W6 in both IB and sealed. None of them were as good sealed as the Q and none of them were as good IB as the IB3 or AE. Stupid test for me to test those subs in these setups. I wanted best of breed to see if I wanted to switch setups.

I sub'd both at 18 (amp) and 30 (processor). I drove around for a while at 26.

Again, take it or leave it, but I believe that energy dispersement is very, very real, and corner and trunk gain is significant for loudness. Again, why the hell are we talking about loudness? There are so many other interesting things to talk about that matter more.

I hate cars

Just trying to get rid of an old myth that was not brought up by myself. You still haven't answered how well your trunk was sealed off.

pohljm

Ok! well my primary reasons for planning on going IB are because....
I dont want to give up much trunk space.
I will not have tons of power available to the sub as I want to just use a 5 channel amp.
I do not want to spend tons of money on a sub.
I can fabricate the baffle alot easier than a box.
I dont want a box sliding around in the trunk.

The Uncald4 type corner loaded box would be about the only type of box/size/location that I would tolerate.

I really do not need crazy bass or volume. Most of my music does not lean towards tons of low end. I would like to bump some hip hop now and then and would like it to sound good doing so. Not interested in rattling windows or neighbors.

In my mind it seems like it would be more successful to have a driver playing directly into the cabin thru the ski pass than any kind of box playing within the trunk that is somewhat sealed from the cabin. I know thats a simplistic idea and obviously there are tons of systems that sound great and are boxes tucked away in the trunk.

jda123

You will have a nice setup. You can avoid a lot of rattles and stuff by having the driver up against the rear seats. Be sure and seal the cabin from the trunk the best that you can - I use a double 3/4 MDF baffle and 2 layers of hushmat on the rear deck and surrounding the baffle. I did not use any expanding foam, but many do.

I would not deaden the rest of your trunk unless you think that you need to - mine was already deadened and I fear that I just have a bunch of extra weight. If you have huge spaces in the basket of your sub, then you might consider something to keep stuff out (I use my trunk a LOT and was worried about hardware or golf balls). The magnet will pull in material from the surrounding area, but no different than a ported sub - I put some cheesecloth over the vent.

Definitely do a 15 (or more) if you are only getting one.

niebur3

Wow, I have just one 12" and it gets up and goes...hmmmm.

rich20730

I also have just one 12 and I'm pretty sure I've caused myself some temporary deafness tuning my system the last two days.

pohljm

Ok! I am trying to narrow down the amps that I am considering for this build. I am partial to the JL XD700/5, but I would prefer to keep the cost down if possible. I am looking at the ARC XDi805, Kenwood XR5S,and perhaps Massive NX5. Any opinions? pros/cons? Additional amps that I should consider? Need a small form factor for under the seat.

Trunk Monkey

iTrader: (1)

Massive shouldn't even be in the same sentence as those. It's been proven to be very overrated. The Kenwood XR series sound very nice. I had a XR-4s and used it for a day or 2. Bought it off a friend for VERY cheap and sold it for profit (should have kept it).

Looks like the XR and 700/5 are very close in power levels. Sub channel is slightly better on the XR, but that difference won't be audible. Same with the 1-4 channels on the 700/5 being more powerful, but again..not likely audible. The ARC looks like it can only have a sub at 4ohm so that could hurt if you change setups anytime. The 700/5 was pretty cheap recently at SonicElectronix, but they're out of stock now lol. Go figure. The Kenwood can be had new for $350 @ onlinecarstereo and they usually pop up even cheaper on Ebay. Yup....there is a refurb on there now for $289 shipped. Is the 1yr warranty and ease of talking to a company over a possible Ebay seller worth spending $60...up to you, but I would.

Don't forget about the Image Dynamics i5800, though I think the JL and Kenwood are a little nicer than the i-series.