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Will the Plane Take-Off - Merged with MythBusters Show Thread

 
 
Old 02-06-2007, 04:30 AM
  #361  
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Originally Posted by Mizouse
lets do it!
Still won't get you laid....
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Old 02-06-2007, 05:07 AM
  #362  
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Lightbulb

ok how about this i work in the airforce. so i have seen a plane or two in my life. doing things that most people wont try. and would get fired or killed doing.

but when a plane has the wheel brakes on a goes WOT the plane will lock up the tires and still slide forward. if you were to hold it like that down the runway it would eventually take off. (i know i would run out of runway and the tires would explode and i would loose control bla bla bla bla. thats not the argument) the conveyer would not keep the plane from moving forward. if a plane can accelerate with 50,000 lbs loaded on it with the wheels locked im sure that it will take off on a conveyer that produces such small amounts of resistance.
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Old 02-06-2007, 06:21 AM
  #363  
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Originally Posted by Whiskers
Still won't get you laid....
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Old 02-06-2007, 06:40 AM
  #364  
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Originally Posted by SwervinCL
Probably belongs in the members pics thread
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Old 02-06-2007, 06:54 AM
  #365  
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Originally Posted by Mizouse
Hey, won't get me laid either....
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Old 02-06-2007, 08:50 AM
  #366  
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Originally Posted by Whiskers
Probably belongs in the members pics thread
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Old 02-06-2007, 04:19 PM
  #367  
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Originally Posted by JT Money
Now I see the light. The conveyor and wheels are irrelevant. The airplane propels itself via air through the engine, therefore the wheels and conveyor would spin like mad, however the plane would still move forward as the propulsion is via air movement, not wheels to ground like a car.
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Old 02-06-2007, 07:21 PM
  #368  
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Nice job pulling through.
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Old 02-06-2007, 07:29 PM
  #369  
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Originally Posted by Whiskers
Hey, won't get me laid either....
Neither will your avatar.... Im assuming its a result of the Jonesi thread?

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Old 02-07-2007, 03:00 AM
  #370  
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Originally Posted by SwervinCL
Neither will your avatar.... Im assuming its a result of the Jonesi thread?

Nope
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Old 02-07-2007, 07:19 AM
  #371  
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If the plane is not moving, there is no air flowing over the wings. No air over the wings means the wings cannot produce lift. No lift means no flying. Period.

Turbines do not force air over the wings, which means no lift, which means no flying.

Prop planes do force air over the wings but not enough to produce enough lift to get the plane off the ground which means no flying.

I fly RC, and in 3D planes (meant to hover and do aerobatics) the wing surface area is so huge that once in the air, the propwash provides an adequate amount of air flow to control the plane when it is stationary, such as in a hover or during minimal controllable airspeed. (Like in airshows when the plane is flying level, but at a high angle of attack). But they will not just shoot up into the air from a stop, not even at full throttle.

Wings need lift to take the plane off the ground. Hypothetically, if a Cessna takes off at 130mph, that is SAFE flyable airspeed, so they probably could fly around minimum 110-115. That means the wings need 110-115 mph of wind over them to produce enough lift to get the plane off the ground.

So to sum up, very easily, in the case of a Cessna (more for larger planes) unless there is 110mph of wind over the wings, it will not fly.
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Old 02-07-2007, 07:30 AM
  #372  
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Originally Posted by Pete1burn
If the plane is not moving, there is no air flowing over the wings. No air over the wings means the wings cannot produce lift. No lift means no flying. Period.

Turbines do not force air over the wings, which means no lift, which means no flying.

Prop planes do force air over the wings but not enough to produce enough lift to get the plane off the ground which means no flying.

I fly RC, and in 3D planes (meant to hover and do aerobatics) the wing surface area is so huge that once in the air, the propwash provides an adequate amount of air flow to control the plane when it is stationary, such as in a hover or during minimal controllable airspeed. (Like in airshows when the plane is flying level, but at a high angle of attack). But they will not just shoot up into the air from a stop, not even at full throttle.

Wings need lift to take the plane off the ground. Hypothetically, if a Cessna takes off at 130mph, that is SAFE flyable airspeed, so they probably could fly around minimum 110-115. That means the wings need 110-115 mph of wind over them to produce enough lift to get the plane off the ground.

So to sum up, very easily, in the case of a Cessna (more for larger planes) unless there is 110mph of wind over the wings, it will not fly.
But the argument is, the plane will move as thrust moves the plane, not the wheels. The wheels have no bearing on whether or not the plane moves.

I like the water plane example.
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Old 02-07-2007, 07:35 AM
  #373  
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Originally Posted by Pete1burn
If the plane is not moving, there is no air flowing over the wings. No air over the wings means the wings cannot produce lift. No lift means no flying. Period.

Turbines do not force air over the wings, which means no lift, which means no flying.

Prop planes do force air over the wings but not enough to produce enough lift to get the plane off the ground which means no flying.

I fly RC, and in 3D planes (meant to hover and do aerobatics) the wing surface area is so huge that once in the air, the propwash provides an adequate amount of air flow to control the plane when it is stationary, such as in a hover or during minimal controllable airspeed. (Like in airshows when the plane is flying level, but at a high angle of attack). But they will not just shoot up into the air from a stop, not even at full throttle.

Wings need lift to take the plane off the ground. Hypothetically, if a Cessna takes off at 130mph, that is SAFE flyable airspeed, so they probably could fly around minimum 110-115. That means the wings need 110-115 mph of wind over them to produce enough lift to get the plane off the ground.

So to sum up, very easily, in the case of a Cessna (more for larger planes) unless there is 110mph of wind over the wings, it will not fly.
Turbines and props produce thrust, it doesn't matter what the wheels are doing. So long as the engine can overcome the rolling resistance of the wheels, it will eventually gather enough speed to take off. If it took 5% engine power to overcome the rolling resistance of the plane, you'd still have 95% engine power to accelerate up to take off speed. The 5% power would get you to 0mph ground speed, the 95% would get you to the 130mph needed to take off.
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Old 02-07-2007, 07:43 AM
  #374  
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Man this issue just wont die... I am surprised that with all the similar threads on other forums out there on the interweb that Mythbusters hasnt taken this one on...

I am going to talk to some of my guys and see if we cant put this to rest. If I can move an RC plane forward the length of a common treadmill will it put all you naysayers to rest? Obviously there will be some physical limitations to this experiment - even a RC plane requires a long runway, long enough that it doesnt exist.

- Variable speed conveyor (probably a modifed treadmill)
- tethered RC prop plane (unless someone is going to donate a jet.
- tachometer measurement on planes wheel (measures rotational speed)

I will attempt to link the tachometer and the treadmill. Any increase in the rotational speed of the landing gear from forward motion will result in a increase of treadmill speed, matching "forward" speed with a equal and opposite speed.

I cant make any guarantees I can pull this together, but it is worth a try...
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Old 02-19-2007, 04:50 AM
  #375  
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it will take off case close.
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Old 02-19-2007, 05:19 AM
  #376  
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Originally Posted by Rpappi
it will take off case close.
You sounds smart....
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Old 10-22-2007, 11:13 AM
  #377  
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Hopefully they won't screw it up... (since the plane will take off!)

http://community.discovery.com/eve/f...5321919039/p/1

Airplane Hour
(Weds., December 12 at 9 PM ET/PT)
Adam and Jamie find out if either of them can safely land a Boeing 747-400 on a runway in varying weather conditions. Meanwhile, Kari, Tory and Grant risk life and limb to investigate skydiving myths regularly featured in Hollywood action films. Is it possible to catch up with someone in freefall if that person jumps out a plane before you do? Can you really hold a conversation during freefall? And would you survive if you opened your parachute only a few feet off the ground? Finally, Adam and Jamie carefully navigate their way through a myth that has baffled everyone from web bloggers to pilots. If a plane is traveling at takeoff speed on a conveyor belt, and the belt is matching that speed in the opposite direction, can the plane take off? Extensive small-scale testing with a super treadmill and a nearly uncontrollable model airplane don't completely resolve the myth, so our flight cadets supersize the myth with help from a willing pilot and his Ultralight flying machine.
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Old 10-22-2007, 11:23 AM
  #378  
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I still don't think it's gonna happen
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Old 10-22-2007, 11:36 AM
  #379  
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you mean the plane taking off? cause it definitely will take off.
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Old 10-22-2007, 11:37 AM
  #380  
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I think the plane will implode...
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Old 10-22-2007, 11:39 AM
  #381  
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umm...if the wings are getting enough air passing around them, then it will. if not, it won't. I didn't know there were people being serious about this question - it's just the relative speed of the plane to the air.
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Old 10-22-2007, 11:40 AM
  #382  
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Glad to see the thread is still alive and the question will finaly have a scientific study done.
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Old 10-22-2007, 11:43 AM
  #383  
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Originally Posted by bigman
Glad to see the thread is still alive and the question will finaly have a scientific study done.
I'll finally be able to sleep at night.
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Old 10-22-2007, 11:45 AM
  #384  
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Didn't the plane on water example already solve this problem? I thought the wheels have no bearing on whether or not the plane moves.
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Old 10-22-2007, 11:49 AM
  #385  
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Originally Posted by dom
Didn't the plane on water example already solve this problem? I thought the wheels have no bearing on whether or not the plane moves.


Plane on ice, water, suspend it from something, treadmill... unless the wheels provide power (which on a plane they don't) they can spin as fast as they want and the plane will still go forward due to thrust.
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Old 10-22-2007, 11:50 AM
  #386  
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Originally Posted by dom
Didn't the plane on water example already solve this problem? I thought the wheels have no bearing on whether or not the plane moves.



neither the wheels nor the air movement across the wings.

I can't believe this is bumped again. :ibthirtyfivenewpages: Good to finally know the answer.


it will take off.
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Old 10-22-2007, 11:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Smalls


neither the wheels nor the air movement across the wings.

I can't believe this is bumped again. Good to finally know the answer.


it will take off.


explain yourself.
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Old 10-22-2007, 11:52 AM
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Originally Posted by dom
Didn't the plane on water example already solve this problem? I thought the wheels have no bearing on whether or not the plane moves.



wheels aren't the source of propulsion on a plane as they are on a car (which many people use to explain their reasoning behind why they claim this doesn't work...


can't wait to see it... but I don't know if the ultralight plane will be equipped with an engine that has enough thrust to test this properly...

I also agree it will take off.
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Old 10-22-2007, 11:53 AM
  #389  
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Originally Posted by revitupwriteitoff


explain yourself.

a plane is not like a car. it does not depend on movement "across". It uses thrust, and the turbines pull the aircraft through the air.
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Old 10-22-2007, 11:55 AM
  #390  
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It won't take off....Air under the wings cause the plane to take off. Air under the wings is caused by travelling quickly under air. No movement, no travelling, no air under wings...
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Old 10-22-2007, 11:56 AM
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Originally Posted by Smalls
a plane is not like a car. it does not depend on movement "across". It uses thrust, and the turbines pull the aircraft through the air.
The jets will thrust, by if the plane isnt moving, it won't go up...
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Old 10-22-2007, 11:57 AM
  #392  
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Originally Posted by revitupwriteitoff


explain yourself.



The lift comes from air passing through the wings, so how is that not relevant? Therefore, like Rev said, it will take-off provided that there is enough lift.
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Old 10-22-2007, 11:58 AM
  #393  
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Originally Posted by Whiskers
It won't take off....Air under the wings cause the plane to take off. Air under the wings is caused by travelling quickly under air. No movement, no travelling, no air under wings...



Its as if you never read the posts above yours. The wheels have no bearing on movement.
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Old 10-22-2007, 11:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Whiskers
The jets will thrust, by if the plane isnt moving, it won't go up...
But the plane will move... as soon as the thrust from the engines is more than the friction of the wheel bearings the plane is going to move because the engines are pushing against the air not against the conveyor belt like a car would for example...
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Old 10-22-2007, 12:00 PM
  #395  
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I'm done with this thread.
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Old 10-22-2007, 12:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Smalls
a plane is not like a car. it does not depend on movement "across". It uses thrust, and the turbines pull the aircraft through the air.
the "taking off" part is accomplished via high pressure under the wings & lower pressure over the wings creating the lift. the turbines only push the wings though the air in order to create the necessary conditions for the takeoff. Their job is not to lift.



edit...I seem to be entirely too slow.
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Old 10-22-2007, 12:01 PM
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Interesting quote from a different perspective seeing as I think alot of people are getting all caught up in the fact that this is a plane...

Picture this - you're standing on a skateboard that is riding on a treadmill. One person is standing in front of the skateboard on firm ground, and the two of you are holding a rope. This person pulls on the rope that you're holding so that the rope moves exactly an inch per second, advancing you forward. No matter what speed the treadmill is going, as long as that person maintains the same rate of pull, you'll advance forward an inch per second. Your skateboard wheels might go faster or slower in relation to the speed of the belt, but you'll pretty easily advance forward. Change the rope to a stick, and the conveyor belt can travel in either direction at either speed and be just as irrelevant.
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Old 10-22-2007, 12:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Whiskers
It won't take off....Air under the wings cause the plane to take off. Air under the wings is caused by travelling quickly under air. No movement, no travelling, no air under wings...


No way it will take off unless there is sufficient air traveling across the wing in order to cause the lift required.



Now if a lemming was on the aileron with a turny clicky thing working feverishly there would be no question...


EDIT: whisky you're an idiot, i just read everyones post above yours and now agree the plane will take off

Last edited by nicholbr; 10-22-2007 at 12:06 PM.
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Old 10-22-2007, 12:04 PM
  #399  
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Originally Posted by nicholbr




Now if a lemming was on the aileron with a turny clicky thing working feverishly there would be no question...
exactly....the lemming would launch.
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Old 10-22-2007, 12:09 PM
  #400  
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Blah, Blah, Blah...I stand by my statement. If the thrust causes the plane to travel faster the the treadmill keeps it back, then thats different...
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