elusiv

Hi guys, here's a heartwarming tale for you...

I needed to replace a driver side balljoint and didn't want to buy the complete knuckle and found out that MOOG makes a replacement balljoint so I ordered one from RockAuto.

It came in a few days and it looked pretty good, although I wondered about the lock nut it came with instead of a castle nut and pin like the OEM one is, but figured its MOOG damnit, they know what they're doing.

So I install it friday night. PITA to get the old one out lemme tell ya! Take it for a ride around the block on saturday, everything feels good so I park it until Sunday. Driving on Sunday, making a right turn down a street and hit a bump... *BOOM* *THUNK* *SCREECH*

Get out to see my fender all messed up and my tire twisted into the fender. Mind you I was going like 5 miles around the turn, could have been alot worse at faster speeds.

So after lots of calls to RockAuto and MOOG and my own investigation, basically its a defective design. The locknut provided with the balljoint is large enough to only cover the sleeve that is pressed into the lower control arm. The sleeve along with the balljoint simply popped out of the lower control arm. The OEM castle nut is a few millimeters large than the sleeve and thus this would never happen if the nut was bigger. I sent the balljoint to MOOG for analysis and maybe they will correct it before it happens to someone else.

So either don't buy the balljoint or use a washer under the locknut to prevent something like this happening to you or someone could get seriously hurt/killed.

Its my fault for not checking it better, yes. But it is a MAJOR design defect for such a high priority item on a car. Be safe out there guys.

stvtec

iTrader: (2)

Holy crap, that is scary. Very cool that you posted this here for your fellow owners. I hope they somehow make things right for you.

elusiv

Well I sent it in, hopefully they will cover the cost of repairing the damage after they figure out its a defective design. I'd just rather others know about this and not have 3K worth of damage to their sexy TL's like I did

lankanboy1

Or get your self a Honda Perlude 2001 Ball Joint. Have it Over 20 000 Km so far no probs.

elusiv

Where or how did you find out that a balljoint from an 01 Prelude will fit our TL's? Not something easily found out I imagine.

TRIOD3SIGNS

HRM HONDA PRELUDE.... please tell me more

friesm2000

iTrader: (4)

maybe photos to help explain it

lankanboy1

well its my friend who found out " he use to be a Honda tech". i go to him to change my ball joint one day, and i had the wrong part, ( From a 2g Tl ) , he took every thing a part and saw the balljoing and said it looks like the perlude balljoint, so we orderd one from honda and it Fits perfectly :P.

CLtotheTL32

iTrader: (3)

Sorry to hear man. Thanks for informing us though.

elusiv

Here is a picture to explain it:

As you can see, the nut is still on there, along with the sleeve that is pressed into the lower control arm. It just simply popped out during a bump, without a washer it will pop out on everyone eventually on a big enough bump if installed using the locknut provided by MOOG.

friesm2000

iTrader: (4)

but now seeing it, that is a very major defect, and personally should be recalled at the same time too

stvtec

iTrader: (2)

That is crazy, and scary that they could make such a mistake. The knuckle is bolted straight to the sleeve and nothing else.

elusiv

Yup. it needs to be wider than the sleeve to be effective, with the current size its useless.

Let me ask a question... what if they deny my claim, should I get a lawyer? I feel as if this would be a pretty cut and dry case in court, right?

Jesstzn

As long as you can prove that was the nut that came with it and no parts were missing. Somehow ..

stvtec

iTrader: (2)

Thats a good point, I wonder if you can get another of these faulty "kits" before they recall them. That way if they jerk you around, you'll have the evidence. If they come clean, you can just return it to the store (keep receipt).

elusiv

Well RockAuto sent me another one directly from MOOG, so I do have a second one.

friesm2000

iTrader: (4)

keep everything in the parts bag also, DO NOT open it up (you still can, but kinda hard for you to "repackage" the parts and such)

elusiv

Eh, a little too late, I opened it up when I got it to check it out see if it was the right one... oh well, hopefully it wont come to that!

tamadrumr88

iTrader: (2)

Good to know, I'll stick with OEM if/when the time comes

friesm2000

iTrader: (4)

only issue normal, especially with honda/acura, is that it is the WHOLE knuckle and not just the ball joint by itself

stvtec

iTrader: (2)

^ Translation:

The issue with going OEM for this, is that Acura only sells the whole knuckle. You can't buy the ball joint by itself.

friesm2000

iTrader: (4)

a little bit better explanation (but with some brand of cars though, you can buy the ball joint separate)

elusiv

Yeah and they want something like $350 for the whole knuckle. I could never understand Honda's thinking on this. They know its a part that will eventually wear out, why make it so difficult/expensive to replace?

I hate cars

Thanks for posting this. I had the exact same issue when a mechanic used the wrong nut. Luckily it was when I was making a 10mph corner and not the 2 lane 70mph highway I was just on.

Not that it matters but I would suspect a warehouse worker stealing the proper nut and substituting the wrong one. That's a pretty obvious screwup. I don't see how it would get overlooked by Moog.

stvtec

iTrader: (2)

He got another from RockAuto. Does the other kit have the same small nut? (keke)

elusiv

Exact same nut. Its not a worker screwup, this is a complete design defect. Both have the same nut, same size. I couldnt believe it myself that MOOG would screw something like this up, this is not some rinky dink chinese knockoff, this is MOOG. I was shocked, on an item like this. Some heads gonna roll for this one. All I want is the money to pay for repairs, not trying to sue (too sue happy as a country we are anyways) but if they dont want to give me that I guess that will have to be my next step.

I hate cars

I just saw the picture for the first time. It's completely Moog's fault but why would you install that type of nut on there? That's just a common nut, not meant for any sort of load and it's obvious the diameter is way too small without a washer and even then it's just not the correct type of nut. Why not reuse the stock nut if in doubt?

Were there any instructions? What I'm wondering is if that nut was for shipping purposes and you're supposed to reuse the stock nut. Most ball joints I've done had a new nut but that thing should have been caught at the engineering level, the common warehouse worker, and by the installer. It's not even close. Obviously it's not a ball joint issue, it's a hardware issue.

Don't take this the wrong way, it's Moog's fault but this is a pretty obvious screwup.

friesm2000

iTrader: (4)

and , for not wanting to try and milk the situation

elusiv

IHC:

1) Its a locknut, with a rubber washer in there.

2) Stock castle nut is a different thread, so it wouldnt work anyway.

3) There is no hole for the pin to go inside so even if I COULD get the castle nut on there, I would risk it falling off.

4) Second one they shipped me with the same nut, so obviously they intended on using it with the same nut.

5) Its not the same size but I figured okay its MOOG they know what they are doing, I didn't realize its smaller than the lower balljoint sleeve until it popped out, otherwise I wouldnt have installed it at all.

I hate cars

That's just crazy. So it IS an engineering problem. I don't know what to say. Hope they take care of it for you.

Even if the nut was the correct size I would put no faith in it over the long haul. Looks like they were trying to save a few pennies and it screwed everyone involved.

elusiv

Thats basically what it boils down to. Its not like a brand new car and they rushed to finish a part, its been out since 04, and they JUST came out with it in October or November...

Just want my car to be fixed and move on, lets hope they do at least that for me.

friesm2000

iTrader: (4)

1: more then likely a nyloc nut (is the "rubber" white), does not really matter as long as it stays tight (minus the popping out of course lol)

3. you can always drill a hole if needed, but WHY should you have to do that though (basically put the nut on, and drill in one of the slots)
lock-tite will accomplish the same task of securing the nut too

DMZ

And you'll pay almost $300 just for the part which is the WHOLE knuckle, the only way Acura sells it.
.
.

paperboy42190

iTrader: (7)

Any updates to this story?

Adding a bigger washer sounds like the most sensible option with the moog ball joint

HondaFan81

Thank you so much for sharing this information.

I realize this thread is from Jan. 2011, but I ordered one MOOG ball-joint K500117 to verify if it is a legitimate option for me in the future.

I hope they fixed this engineering design flaw. Logical deduction tells me they simply replicated a ball-joint design (or offered one they already had) that fit the application from a component level, but did not care to look at if from an assembly level. There, they would have the opportunity to realize the problem. That is the unfortunate case with aftermarket product versus OEM. When in doubt with Honda product, go OEM due to the engineering involved.

Now (July 2013), there is a OEM ball-joint only option.

elusiv

Update: Moog took care of the damage to my car and a few months later I sold it.

Good to hear Honda took their head outta their ass and provided a ball-joint only option.

HondaFan81

Had this 3G TL, MOOG K500117 ball-joint delivered to local parts store. Personally checked it out today, it now comes with an all metal, crimped lock nut with large flange. So they updated the nut based on story above. Still no provision for cotter pin/castle nut design. Also, part is made in Korea.

I'm familiar with MOOG products, used them several time and this does not look like a traditional MOOG part, makes me wonder if it is outsourced.

Personally, I'm paying the extra $20/per part for an OEM ball-joint. Hope this clarifies some things.

knucklebuster

Moog ball joint k500117 failure again !!!
Over $5,000.00 in damage

flyromeo3

care to elaborate?

paperboy42190

iTrader: (7)

anyone have the part # to the OEM ball joint?