Do I need a camber kit?
11-03-2006, 03:05 PM
#1
Do I need a camber kit?
A definitive answer in a Heeltoe Tech Article!
http://heeltoeauto.com/httech/YaBB.p...1162587420/0#0
This topic is one of the most frequently asked on one of our major customer sites. So, rather than continue to post wordy replies over and over again, we are making it a tech article!
Do I need a camber kit? The short answer is: If you are worried about your tires, then no. If you are more anal about your car and want all the numbers correct, then yes. For the long answer, keep reading.
For Hondas, a camber kit is a debatable issue. When you lower the car, the camber will go out and you need a camber kit to fix it. However, I find it is not necessary to correct the camber in most cases. Most people think they need a camber kit because of a tire-wear concern. The reality is, TOE ANGLE kills tires WAY faster than camber ever will.
Sound like a bold statement? Conventional wisdom is that when you lower the car you need a camber kit if you don't wanna wear out the tires fast. Well, there is another adjustment/spec here than nobody has mentioned. Caster is another key.
When you lower a double wishbone car like the 88-00 Civics, 90-01 Integras, Accords, TSX, etc, the camber angle always increases in a negative direction: The wheels tilt inwards. It is what makes the car handle better in turns than strut cars. It is a natural effect of cycling a double-wishbone suspension.
Lowering many cars also increases the toe angle, which is to say it points the tires outward. They kinda fight for direction where the car wants to go.
But also, realize that all cars have some positive caster. The means that when you turn the wheel, the axis of rotation is not 90 degrees. You may notice it more exaggerated on BMWs and Benzes. The best way to view the angle is to turn the wheel all the way to one side, and get out and look at your car. Notice the wheel is turned, but also kind flopped over? Have a friend with a S500 (if you have one) do donuts while you watch outside. The wheels really flop over on those cars!
Think of it like pushing a wheel barrow. The angle from the axle to the handle is like caster. Pick up a wheel barrow and stand it veritcal on the tire with the handles straight in the air. Now imagine pushing it and trying to turn it. Haha...it just fell on you! Now imagine pushing and turning it normally. Much easier. Much more stable. And when you trun it, the tire is not actually turning. It flops over on it's side and leans! That is how your car turns too! That is how motorcylcles turn and well.
Caster is great for high speed stability. That is why all cars have some dialed in. Without it, the car would be super twitchy and hard to control at speed. It's why autobahn burners have more caster than your typical Japanese car.
The problem is, when you lower the car and toe angle is thrown out, the wheels are actually riding on the inside edges of the tire as they grind away pulling the car in different directions! This is in addition to the increased camber effect! With an improper alignment the car will WASTE tires in a matter of months (or weeks if you drive like me).
The trick to lowering the car and having the tires last is to get a good 4-wheel alignment to fix the toe angle. I AM COMPLETELY SERIOUS when I say that, as an authorized Tein distributor, 9 times out of ten we do not sell a camber kit. I have had over a dozen hondas, all lowered, and most lowered past 2". I have never had a camber kit on ANY of my cars. The ONLY car that I had a problem with tires with was my 94 accord which I had never aligned. Go figure.
Camber will tend to wear tires out somewhat quicker than stock, but generally speaking, with a good toe alignment, the increased wear will not be cumbersome or even really significant. The added camber actually makes the car handle a little better. Also, a little camber in conjuntion with the caster will wear the tires out almost evenly! So why get rid of it?
Here are some images to illustrate what I mean.
In this image, you can see where the inside and outside of the tire are. The red dots are there to help you identify the wear-indicators inside the tire grooves. When the tires wear down to these wear-bars, you know it is time to replace the tires. These tires are almost there:
Now, you can see how the tire is worn more toward the inside...that's camber wear. This customer was driving on this tire, with the car lowered moderately with a good alignment. He has not maximized tire wear, but clearly he has not greatly suffered either. No camber kit was installed.
In the next image, we have a tire which was lowered aggressively, and the car was NOT aligned.
Look how aggressively the tire has worn on the inside edge. The cords are even showing. This wear is caused by TOE angle. The direction of wear here is dramatically different than a camber-worn tire. This type of wear will kill a brand new set of tires in a matter of months. Mistakenly, people will lower their cars, not align them, get this wear, and blame it on camber. The timeline continues when the customer buys a camber kit, installs it, and the wear goes away. Must have been the camber kit, right? It was the toe, people. Also note, this is a front tire.
With a drop under 1.75", you should not need to even worry about it, because a drop of that much will not even throw the car out of factory camber specs! But that toe will be in the red every time!
Other things of note!
Camber and Caster are not adjustable on our Honda cars! I think we already know that , but I was just noting it. Toe is fully adjustable front and rear.
Front tires always wear faster than rear ones. The wheels back there are just free wheeling. There is little weight on them and the is no load/torque on them. Traction is not an issue and wear is nearly non-existant. If you are going to get a camber kit for your Honda, you only really need it in the front.
Some people wonder why Hondas do not have camber-adjustable pillow mounts available. The reason is simple. It's that Double-Wishbone suspension thing again. Cars which have camber adjustable pillow mounts awailable are all MacPherson strut suspension cars. In a MacPherson car, where struts are used, the damper locates the steering knuckle; it itself is a suspension member. In a Double-Wishbone car, upper and lower arms locate the knuckle, and the shock and spring are attached to one of the arms to provide dampening. So you see, with arms locating the knuckle, moving the shock around really does not change any alignment angles. So having camber adjustable upper pillow mounts on these applications is utterly pointless.
Alignment shops are like body shops. Most of them suck, but they are a necessary evil in our world. The trick is to find a good one you like. I hear a lot of good thigs about west-end. There are a couple in South Orange County here I recommend. I know a lot about alignments because I did them at work for a while. I wish I had an alignment machine JUST so I could do my own now!
Negative camber is visually apparent from outside the car. This is a big deal to some people. Likewise, I am not trying to tell people that lowering the car will not result in negative camber which is out of spec. All I am saying is that is does not have a big impact. Really, to fix the looks and alginment numbers, you'd need a camber kit. Some people just have different prioritys.
That's it for this posting. Thanks for reading! Feel free to reply!
Marcus
http://heeltoeauto.com/httech/YaBB.p...1162587420/0#0
Originally Posted by MrHeeltoe
This topic is one of the most frequently asked on one of our major customer sites. So, rather than continue to post wordy replies over and over again, we are making it a tech article!
Do I need a camber kit? The short answer is: If you are worried about your tires, then no. If you are more anal about your car and want all the numbers correct, then yes. For the long answer, keep reading.
For Hondas, a camber kit is a debatable issue. When you lower the car, the camber will go out and you need a camber kit to fix it. However, I find it is not necessary to correct the camber in most cases. Most people think they need a camber kit because of a tire-wear concern. The reality is, TOE ANGLE kills tires WAY faster than camber ever will.
Sound like a bold statement? Conventional wisdom is that when you lower the car you need a camber kit if you don't wanna wear out the tires fast. Well, there is another adjustment/spec here than nobody has mentioned. Caster is another key.
When you lower a double wishbone car like the 88-00 Civics, 90-01 Integras, Accords, TSX, etc, the camber angle always increases in a negative direction: The wheels tilt inwards. It is what makes the car handle better in turns than strut cars. It is a natural effect of cycling a double-wishbone suspension.
Lowering many cars also increases the toe angle, which is to say it points the tires outward. They kinda fight for direction where the car wants to go.
But also, realize that all cars have some positive caster. The means that when you turn the wheel, the axis of rotation is not 90 degrees. You may notice it more exaggerated on BMWs and Benzes. The best way to view the angle is to turn the wheel all the way to one side, and get out and look at your car. Notice the wheel is turned, but also kind flopped over? Have a friend with a S500 (if you have one) do donuts while you watch outside. The wheels really flop over on those cars!
Think of it like pushing a wheel barrow. The angle from the axle to the handle is like caster. Pick up a wheel barrow and stand it veritcal on the tire with the handles straight in the air. Now imagine pushing it and trying to turn it. Haha...it just fell on you! Now imagine pushing and turning it normally. Much easier. Much more stable. And when you trun it, the tire is not actually turning. It flops over on it's side and leans! That is how your car turns too! That is how motorcylcles turn and well.
Caster is great for high speed stability. That is why all cars have some dialed in. Without it, the car would be super twitchy and hard to control at speed. It's why autobahn burners have more caster than your typical Japanese car.
The problem is, when you lower the car and toe angle is thrown out, the wheels are actually riding on the inside edges of the tire as they grind away pulling the car in different directions! This is in addition to the increased camber effect! With an improper alignment the car will WASTE tires in a matter of months (or weeks if you drive like me).
The trick to lowering the car and having the tires last is to get a good 4-wheel alignment to fix the toe angle. I AM COMPLETELY SERIOUS when I say that, as an authorized Tein distributor, 9 times out of ten we do not sell a camber kit. I have had over a dozen hondas, all lowered, and most lowered past 2". I have never had a camber kit on ANY of my cars. The ONLY car that I had a problem with tires with was my 94 accord which I had never aligned. Go figure.
Camber will tend to wear tires out somewhat quicker than stock, but generally speaking, with a good toe alignment, the increased wear will not be cumbersome or even really significant. The added camber actually makes the car handle a little better. Also, a little camber in conjuntion with the caster will wear the tires out almost evenly! So why get rid of it?
Here are some images to illustrate what I mean.
In this image, you can see where the inside and outside of the tire are. The red dots are there to help you identify the wear-indicators inside the tire grooves. When the tires wear down to these wear-bars, you know it is time to replace the tires. These tires are almost there:
Now, you can see how the tire is worn more toward the inside...that's camber wear. This customer was driving on this tire, with the car lowered moderately with a good alignment. He has not maximized tire wear, but clearly he has not greatly suffered either. No camber kit was installed.
In the next image, we have a tire which was lowered aggressively, and the car was NOT aligned.
Look how aggressively the tire has worn on the inside edge. The cords are even showing. This wear is caused by TOE angle. The direction of wear here is dramatically different than a camber-worn tire. This type of wear will kill a brand new set of tires in a matter of months. Mistakenly, people will lower their cars, not align them, get this wear, and blame it on camber. The timeline continues when the customer buys a camber kit, installs it, and the wear goes away. Must have been the camber kit, right? It was the toe, people. Also note, this is a front tire.
With a drop under 1.75", you should not need to even worry about it, because a drop of that much will not even throw the car out of factory camber specs! But that toe will be in the red every time!
Other things of note!
Camber and Caster are not adjustable on our Honda cars! I think we already know that , but I was just noting it. Toe is fully adjustable front and rear.
Front tires always wear faster than rear ones. The wheels back there are just free wheeling. There is little weight on them and the is no load/torque on them. Traction is not an issue and wear is nearly non-existant. If you are going to get a camber kit for your Honda, you only really need it in the front.
Some people wonder why Hondas do not have camber-adjustable pillow mounts available. The reason is simple. It's that Double-Wishbone suspension thing again. Cars which have camber adjustable pillow mounts awailable are all MacPherson strut suspension cars. In a MacPherson car, where struts are used, the damper locates the steering knuckle; it itself is a suspension member. In a Double-Wishbone car, upper and lower arms locate the knuckle, and the shock and spring are attached to one of the arms to provide dampening. So you see, with arms locating the knuckle, moving the shock around really does not change any alignment angles. So having camber adjustable upper pillow mounts on these applications is utterly pointless.
Alignment shops are like body shops. Most of them suck, but they are a necessary evil in our world. The trick is to find a good one you like. I hear a lot of good thigs about west-end. There are a couple in South Orange County here I recommend. I know a lot about alignments because I did them at work for a while. I wish I had an alignment machine JUST so I could do my own now!
Negative camber is visually apparent from outside the car. This is a big deal to some people. Likewise, I am not trying to tell people that lowering the car will not result in negative camber which is out of spec. All I am saying is that is does not have a big impact. Really, to fix the looks and alginment numbers, you'd need a camber kit. Some people just have different prioritys.
That's it for this posting. Thanks for reading! Feel free to reply!
Marcus
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11-03-2006, 04:37 PM
#3
Have you ever seen someone need a camber kit, when using the Aspec suspension? Thanks
11-03-2006, 06:09 PM
#5
Previous Owner
I don't mean to hijack the thread or nothing but I totally agree with Heeltoe.
This was due to a bad alignment, and REALLY BAD TOE as Mr. Heeltoe pointed out in the thread in which I had posted on. I have the camber kits installed and didn't realize how bad of a job the alignment was until it was too late.
This was due to a bad alignment, and REALLY BAD TOE as Mr. Heeltoe pointed out in the thread in which I had posted on. I have the camber kits installed and didn't realize how bad of a job the alignment was until it was too late.
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11-03-2006, 10:09 PM
#6
Originally Posted by jupitersolo
Have you ever seen someone need a camber kit, when using the Aspec suspension? Thanks
Well, the point of that article is to provide enough information on your own to make that decision yourself.
That being said, I have not seen the Aspec lower the car to a very significant degree, therefore the camber does not get very far out at all. And therefore, I doubt camber would scarely be out of spec.
The point is, it will still not be perfect, and if that bothers you you'll need an alignment.
Marcus
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TLFTW (01-30-2012)
01-22-2007, 01:44 PM
#13
Originally Posted by mr.almeida
I used to have Tein SS-P's on my RSX, do you think if I bought the Tein SS-P's for the TL I would only need a rear camber kit?
The point of this article is to avoid having to answer questions like this. Reread the article and decide for yourself. If you have a question that might effect your decision then ask, but I don't like telling people that they do or do not need a camber kit.
01-30-2007, 08:09 PM
#14
Burning Brakes
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So, I went and got my coilovers, EDFC, Comptech RSB, Greddy Bar installed on Friday and the shop guys told me to get a alignment done. (Thanks for all the parts Marcus) So, I got the alignment done yesturday and as they were doing the alignment, I was watching them from inside the waiting room. I saw them running around and they couldnt figure something out. They later came in and told me that they could not adjust the camber and that I had to get a camber kit. They qouted me a $1200 for parts and install; I began to be sad because I didnt want there to be a problem with my car and I knew that it would be a while till I got some money for the camber kit and get it installed. But as I came home and read this thread, It made me feel so much better.
So, I just wanted to say THANKS MARCUS
I dont have to get camber kits and you hooked me up on the parts
So, I just wanted to say THANKS MARCUS
I dont have to get camber kits and you hooked me up on the parts
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Doh21061 (10-31-2013)
02-22-2007, 11:35 AM
#18
Racer
Good information.
Hey Marcus, what about cars that are lowered say 2.5 - 3 inches. A good alignment place would be able to adjust the numbers to as close to stock and it should be fine? With tire rotations, etc.?
Hey Marcus, what about cars that are lowered say 2.5 - 3 inches. A good alignment place would be able to adjust the numbers to as close to stock and it should be fine? With tire rotations, etc.?
02-22-2007, 10:01 PM
#19
Originally Posted by Flyboy4yang
Good information.
Hey Marcus, what about cars that are lowered say 2.5 - 3 inches. A good alignment place would be able to adjust the numbers to as close to stock and it should be fine? With tire rotations, etc.?
Hey Marcus, what about cars that are lowered say 2.5 - 3 inches. A good alignment place would be able to adjust the numbers to as close to stock and it should be fine? With tire rotations, etc.?
Reread the article
Camber is NOT adjustable AT ALL. With any lowering the camber will be altered. Pretty much anything more than 1.25" or so is going to knock out the camber out of spec. The Spec is a range....a +/- amount. The camber can change a little and still be in spec. It is when it changes a lot that it is out of spec.
2.5-3" is going to make the camber go waaay out. Even with a camber kit I don't think you can get completely stock because your tires will probably hit the fenders. Really, if you are going that low the camber is probably the least of your concerns.
03-19-2007, 08:45 PM
#22
All the world's a stage
If toe is completely adjustable on our Acura's, what is the ideal toe setting for a lowered vehicle? Should I tell the alignment shop to adjust it as close to stock as possible? Or is there a "magic number" that is the ideal setting for toe?
Thanks!
Thanks!
05-04-2007, 11:43 AM
#24
Originally Posted by -sNaFu*
If toe is completely adjustable on our Acura's, what is the ideal toe setting for a lowered vehicle? Should I tell the alignment shop to adjust it as close to stock as possible? Or is there a "magic number" that is the ideal setting for toe?
Thanks!
Thanks!
Deviation from stock will possibly result in tire wear. That being said, you might want the front toed in just a c-hair. This will ensure the car will track straight on the freeway. Also note, the ture ideal setting will depend on the car, the driver, and the roads you travel. the ideal setting on a track weekend will not be the same as one for daily commutes.
Marcus
06-02-2007, 07:49 PM
#25
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Where should I get a good alignment? If I go for an alignment and its too far out with my Eibach pro springs, I want to be able to go home, install the 4 rear Ingall rods, then go back to get aligned again without another charge.
MrHeeltoe, can I install the 4 rear ingall rods myself? I put them together and it doesn't look hard at all. I have HD jack stands and jack. If I take the stock 4 rods of the car, measure them, and adjust the Ingall rods to the same length, then install them, will this be ok? Then I can get another alignmnet. They want $80 just to install the 4 rods!!!
MrHeeltoe, can I install the 4 rear ingall rods myself? I put them together and it doesn't look hard at all. I have HD jack stands and jack. If I take the stock 4 rods of the car, measure them, and adjust the Ingall rods to the same length, then install them, will this be ok? Then I can get another alignmnet. They want $80 just to install the 4 rods!!!
08-21-2007, 12:02 AM
#26
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ProKit and good Alignment is that all I need?
First time I ever lowered a car and some of this stuff makes sense and some does not. I just installed the Eibach Pro-kit w/ koni yellows and 18 inch aspec wheels. Besides a good 4 wheel alignment is there anything else that I am missing?
Thanks for the info!!
Nick
Thanks for the info!!
Nick
12-14-2007, 04:34 PM
#28
Suzuka Master
After all of this good reading .. what about headlight adjustment? Would it be realistic to think if the drop was the same front and back the alignment of the lights shouldn't be effected.
12-14-2007, 04:46 PM
#29
Originally Posted by Jesstzn
After all of this good reading .. what about headlight adjustment? Would it be realistic to think if the drop was the same front and back the alignment of the lights shouldn't be effected.
04-28-2008, 11:41 AM
#30
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Originally Posted by JD TL-S
Where should I get a good alignment? If I go for an alignment and its too far out with my Eibach pro springs, I want to be able to go home, install the 4 rear Ingall rods, then go back to get aligned again without another charge.
MrHeeltoe, can I install the 4 rear ingall rods myself? I put them together and it doesn't look hard at all. I have HD jack stands and jack. If I take the stock 4 rods of the car, measure them, and adjust the Ingall rods to the same length, then install them, will this be ok? Then I can get another alignmnet. They want $80 just to install the 4 rods!!!
MrHeeltoe, can I install the 4 rear ingall rods myself? I put them together and it doesn't look hard at all. I have HD jack stands and jack. If I take the stock 4 rods of the car, measure them, and adjust the Ingall rods to the same length, then install them, will this be ok? Then I can get another alignmnet. They want $80 just to install the 4 rods!!!
04-28-2008, 12:02 PM
#32
the rear camber kit is about 1/2 hour each side to install- easy DIY
you got it right- set them as close as you can on length- then straight to the alignment shop
If you already own the kits- install them BEFORE you go to the shop
It takes time for the tech to hook the equipment to each wheel, then run the series of motions of the tires to get all the readings- then take it all off if you dont want to do the work.... the actual adjustment take minutes in comparison.
On my 01TL, I have negative 1.1degree and neg 1.4 camber- thats just past the ~spec limit~ of neg 1 and the general exclaim uhp tires are running nice- no funny wear
Thats on tein ss standard drop
More than that- towards neg 2 degrees and you will have tire issues - making the kits totally worth it IMO
you got it right- set them as close as you can on length- then straight to the alignment shop
If you already own the kits- install them BEFORE you go to the shop
It takes time for the tech to hook the equipment to each wheel, then run the series of motions of the tires to get all the readings- then take it all off if you dont want to do the work.... the actual adjustment take minutes in comparison.
On my 01TL, I have negative 1.1degree and neg 1.4 camber- thats just past the ~spec limit~ of neg 1 and the general exclaim uhp tires are running nice- no funny wear
Thats on tein ss standard drop
More than that- towards neg 2 degrees and you will have tire issues - making the kits totally worth it IMO
04-30-2008, 10:28 PM
#33
Thanks for great read.
I don't know much about alignments.
here is my situation.
I just got new falken 452s 235/45/17 on the oem rims.
Car is stock, no drop.
I went to a shop to get my alignment done.
I was told the camber on the right rear wheel was off and that it cannot be adjusted without the camber kit.
On my print out only the rear right is in the red.
Everything else is in the green.
Camber
Rear
Left - 1.3
Right - 2.0
Spec - Min = -1.5 Max = -0.5
Based on your sticky, camber is nothing to worry about.
However, in my case only the right rear is in the red.
Wouldn't it be unbalanced then?
Your advice is much appreciated.
Thank you.
I don't know much about alignments.
here is my situation.
I just got new falken 452s 235/45/17 on the oem rims.
Car is stock, no drop.
I went to a shop to get my alignment done.
I was told the camber on the right rear wheel was off and that it cannot be adjusted without the camber kit.
On my print out only the rear right is in the red.
Everything else is in the green.
Camber
Rear
Left - 1.3
Right - 2.0
Spec - Min = -1.5 Max = -0.5
Based on your sticky, camber is nothing to worry about.
However, in my case only the right rear is in the red.
Wouldn't it be unbalanced then?
Your advice is much appreciated.
Thank you.
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04-30-2008, 10:41 PM
#34
Odd for a stock height car. There is a bulletin on this so you might want to check with the dealer to see if your car needs an update.
The car goes in the red if you drop it too. That doesn't mean much in relation to the article, which is written for the person experiencing out of spec camber.
Marcus
The car goes in the red if you drop it too. That doesn't mean much in relation to the article, which is written for the person experiencing out of spec camber.
Marcus
07-14-2008, 08:37 PM
#36
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these pics are before alignment:
so after i brought it to the alignment guy, i asked about camber issues. He said well the tire is going to show some wear. but he adjusted it to the max that he could so that it will wear evenly. But if i go straight roads a lot (i am assuming freeway) you will see a slight inside wear. He suggested that camber kit is not worth it. what do you think? (according to mrheeltoe and this alignment guy, i dont really need it)
so after i brought it to the alignment guy, i asked about camber issues. He said well the tire is going to show some wear. but he adjusted it to the max that he could so that it will wear evenly. But if i go straight roads a lot (i am assuming freeway) you will see a slight inside wear. He suggested that camber kit is not worth it. what do you think? (according to mrheeltoe and this alignment guy, i dont really need it)
07-15-2008, 12:28 PM
#37
You will be fine. Sounds like the guy more or less knows what he is talking about. The only thing is, when you are going straight the tires have almost no rolling resistance and therefore almost no tire-wearing friction. As long as the toe is correct you will be fine. The toe is what makes the tire roll straight. It does not matter too much if the tire is crooked as long as the tire is straight.
I would only take exception to the statement of "adjusting to the max." He would not have done that. it doesn't make sense.
I would only take exception to the statement of "adjusting to the max." He would not have done that. it doesn't make sense.
07-15-2008, 12:52 PM
#38
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Originally Posted by MrHeeltoe
You will be fine. Sounds like the guy more or less knows what he is talking about. The only thing is, when you are going straight the tires have almost no rolling resistance and therefore almost no tire-wearing friction. As long as the toe is correct you will be fine. The toe is what makes the tire roll straight. It does not matter too much if the tire is crooked as long as the tire is straight.
I would only take exception to the statement of "adjusting to the max." He would not have done that. it doesn't make sense.
I would only take exception to the statement of "adjusting to the max." He would not have done that. it doesn't make sense.
i see. Well when he said to the max. he ment, he adjusted it to the best so that it wouldn't result in wearing. Should i post the specs he did?
07-15-2008, 05:06 PM
#39
Originally Posted by ImPoRtHoNdA
i see. Well when he said to the max. he ment, he adjusted it to the best so that it wouldn't result in wearing. Should i post the specs he did?
Pretty much, yes.
I don't think it is going to give us any more insight. We'd expect the toe to be set pretty close on both sides and the camber to be negative on both sides, maybe one more than the other.
Marcus
