lovepo9e

Hey Joker, if you wanna check out a sweet ride check out "FELLOW TLr" gallery. NBP TL on 19" with 1" drop!!!!!!!
Forth post above this one.

Fellow TLr

lovepo9e,
Thanks for the complement. I'm glad poeple are checking out my gallery!

J0KER

Thanks for the heads up!! Checking it out now

VTEC=happiness

I agree...if there is any damage at all to the shocks in the form of increased stress it will be so little that it will take years and years for the problems to develop. I have hit some big dips/bumps with the springs on and the socks are not bottoming out or anything.

harddrivin1le

That's not an accurate statement.

Additionally, the car fitted with stiffer springs won't be adequately damped by the stock shocks. The stock shocks are marginal with even the stock springs.:wow:

This topic has been covered time and time again in various suspension tuning books, etc. Springs and shocks work together; each must be tuned to match the characteristic of the other if they are to work properly.

The Comptech springs are significantly stiffer than the OEM springs; the stock shocks will be overworked, will run hotter and wear out much quicker with those springs. They also won't be able to properly dampen the stiffer springs; the stiffer springs will want to "over-run" the stock shocks. The harder you drive, the worse it will get.

You'd be better off with a set of Konis (once they come out with TL shocks) and the stock springs than you'd be be aftermarket springs and the stock shocks.

Some sources:

http://www.grmotorsports.com/shockstech.html

http://www.godspeedinc.com/suspension.html

"Keep in mind, however, that if your car is newer, the stock shocks will wear out quite a bit faster since they are trying to handle more load than they were designed to do...For most enthusiasts, springs are great for looks but simply put, will not increase your handling all that much and may cause some loss of performance in quick transitional cornering loads as the stock shocks can not handle those increased loads that the springs put on them. "

http://www.turnfast.com/tech_handli..._springs2.lasso

"Using Springs to Lower the Car

...Speaking of shocks, it is generally necessary to buy stiffer shocks at the same time you change the springs. Springs alone will lower the CG, and will reduce body roll, but neither is the primary function of the spring. For road imperfections, shocks work in conjunction with the spring, and are designed with each other's ratings in mind. Going over bumps, a stiff spring may resist the first compression well, but without sufficient shock capacity, the car will bounce more than it should afterwards which ultimately reduces the car's handling performance. Also, stiffer springs will prematurely fatigue stock shocks. They'll last a while, but will eventually get weaker and decrease the handling performance.

If you can only afford shocks or springs, either keep saving to get both, or start with the shocks. Performance shocks alone which provide firmer bump and rebound control, and greater control over weight transfer rate, will improve handing performance more than stiffer springs alone will."

theslik1

The man knows of what he speaks. :o

Any performance handling specialist will tell you...upgrade shocks and springs together or shocks first. I hate to tell you guys that you're pulling the trigger too early on the springs unless you plan on upgrading the shocks SOON.

Expect alot of "why are my shocks failing?" posts over the next few months.

There also seems to be alot of early jumping at other mods (mainly CAI's) without careful consideration of the pros/cons or proof of actual gains. One dyno chart does not prove anything...EVER. Personally, I'm willing to wait until the gains are proven consistently and the bugs worked out before I modify anything.

lovepo9e

What are the first signs your shock are going out?

harddrivin1le

Just replace the shocks when you replace the springs (or as soon as shocks become readily available).

That's essentially a "rule."

Shocks "going out" will result in additional body oscillations after going over a bump prior to the body settling back down to the norm. That because the springs will want to continue to "bounce" because the shocks are incapable of absorbing excess spring energy.

VTEC=happiness

I don't understand your obsession here...even your own sources do not difinitively say you must get new shocks or that the current shocks will not be able to handle the stress....the sources generalize, and most springs lower a car at least 1 &1/2 inches... in this specific case, I have talked to a lot of people who have experience in this field and have analyzed this specific case and advised that shocks would improve performance but are otherwise unnecessary. I am sure the sources quoted are legitimate, but they are not here looking at my particular application

harddrivin1le

I answered somone who asked me a question. Why do you take issue with that?

And you're neglecting the fact that the replacement springs aren't only shorter, but they are also STIFFER (usually by about 35% for aftermarket street applications).

And many of those who lower their car add larger wheels and tires. Those are heavier and thereby increase unsprung weight. That results in even MORE shock absorber loading.

Lowering a car also screws up the basic suspension geometry; that's a whole other issue altogether...

I've read more and have had more experience with shocks and springs than you care to hear about.

Do what you want and forget about the science. That's always the easiest way to go.

Some sources:

http://www.grmotorsports.com/shockstech.html

http://www.godspeedinc.com/suspension.html

"Keep in mind, however, that if your car is newer, the stock shocks will wear out quite a bit faster since they are trying to handle more load than they were designed to do...For most enthusiasts, springs are great for looks but simply put, will not increase your handling all that much and may cause some loss of performance in quick transitional cornering loads as the stock shocks can not handle those increased loads that the springs put on them. "

http://www.turnfast.com/tech_handli..._springs2.lasso

"Using Springs to Lower the Car

...Speaking of shocks, it is generally necessary to buy stiffer shocks at the same time you change the springs. Springs alone will lower the CG, and will reduce body roll, but neither is the primary function of the spring. For road imperfections, shocks work in conjunction with the spring, and are designed with each other's ratings in mind. Going over bumps, a stiff spring may resist the first compression well, but without sufficient shock capacity, the car will bounce more than it should afterwards which ultimately reduces the car's handling performance. Also, stiffer springs will prematurely fatigue stock shocks. They'll last a while, but will eventually get weaker and decrease the handling performance.

If you can only afford shocks or springs, either keep saving to get both, or start with the shocks. Performance shocks alone which provide firmer bump and rebound control, and greater control over weight transfer rate, will improve handing performance more than stiffer springs alone will."

VTEC=happiness

The day I start a thread complaining about the integrity of my shocks, you can say you told me so, until then, I can have my opinion (back by many I have consulted) and you can have yours (based on your experience/research). No need to act as though you are preaching from the shock absorber Bible. No one needs to see your quotes reposted again, they take up too much damn room

harddrivin1le

You don't know what you're talking about and you place more value on aesthetics than on vehicle dynamics.

Read a couple of books about suspensions and get back to me.

Stiffer springs require stiffer shocks. The OEM shocks are inadequate for the STOCK springs! They'll be a joke (to those who KNOW) with aftermarket springs.

Here's an idea for a speciality plate after you install the springs:

POGOSTK

VTEC=happiness

Well, in the last post I tried to put this to rest, but no such luck. My springs are intalled and the ride is fantastic. It could be the fact that I am half the age of most of the people who buy TL's, so my impressions of a "good ride" may be a bit different.

harddrivin1le

Only because you don't understand vehicle dynamics and the significant improvement in ride (and especially handling,when driven hard) that a good pair of aftermarket shocks would make.

Do what you want and stay in the dark. That requires a lot less thinking is is therefore a lot easier.

VTEC=happiness

I'm not driving a freakin race car here....it is a car to commute to and from work in...

harddrivin1le

Then why did you lower the car and install stiffer springs?

VTEC=happiness

For looks....if I wanted a performance car I would have installed a Tien full set up or some JIC coil overs

gstais

To Harddrivin1le:

Your incessant ranting in practically every thread in this forum is getting really old. I am tired of reading the same nauseating dribble over and over and...........over again! Who died and made you the "self-proclaimed auto guru" you think you are? Reality check - these are your opinions and are not necessarily factual or objective, nor are they shared by everyone.

Bottom line - you need to learn to listen, understand and respect other people's opinions. Everyone is not always going to agree with you, so get off your soap box and grow up.

P.S. - I don't expect you to get it, so I will anxiously await your next moronic reply.

Greg S

VTEC=happiness

YEA!!!!! I thought I was insane and everyone thought this guy was normal, thank God you came around Greg! This site is about opinions and helping people out when you can, but to make it your life's work to show everyone that your way is the only way is a bit tiring. I am sorry that I took so much time and space on this thread to go back and forth with this guy.

gstais

VTEC=Happiness:

Thanks for your feedback. I made the same mistake with this guy in another thread (C&D Disses TL Again), and I found myself going back and forth with several posts. Harddrivin1LE never let's up - he always is the authority and has to have the last word.

Let's keep this forum about open discussion and opinions, as it was intended.

Regards,

Greg S

harddrivin1le

Bottom line:

Some "opinions" are based in fact and are supported by a host of valid sources.

Others aren't.

And anyone who installes shorter, stiffer springs while retaining the OEM dampers doesn't know what he/she is doing with regard to suspension dynamics.

If only "looks" matters then fine. Lower it, install 20" wheels and run the stock shocks.

Nevertheless, the car wil be wrong from a chassic dynamics point of view.

XjoEnX

iTrader: (2)

i had comptech springs on my integra with stock shocks and its been over three years since i had this combo. it still feels the same as the day i installed it. maybe its different for different cars.

harddrivin1le

Maybe you don't drive the car hard enough to notice....

Or maybe you do, have never experienced what could be and therefore assume that's as good as it can get.

Try throwing a good set of aftermarket shocks in your car and find out what you've been missing. I guarantee that you will see a SUBSTANTIAL difference.

Shocks ALONE make a huge difference (with the STOCK springs)!

XjoEnX

iTrader: (2)

i'll take that into consideration, i do drive my car hard and ive been satisified with its handling. but i was planning on new shocks by this summer. so i hope that info becomes of good use to me. if it does then thanks in advance. =)

harddrivin1le

The difference will be big.

Here, check out this HS Tuners (specializing in Honda/Acura) article:

http://www.hstuners.com/news/wmview.php?ArtID=50

Here's a manufacturer that sells springs for performance purposes (vs. cosmetics):

http://www.whiteline.com.au/default....faqsprings.htm

"Yes, our springs will physically fit in the space as determined by the shock and suspension geometry but they are not designed to work with standard dampers, NO aftermarket lowered or heavier rate spring is... The most important thing therefore is to ensure that the shock supplied with the kit matches the springs, both in rate and performance characteristics. This is difficult enough to do for a suspension specialist armed with a shock dyno let alone the average customer so it pays to ask some specific questions and stick to known brands."

BMINDES

Picking up a 04 TL 5at next week...I was going to having the comptech springs intstalled but now its becoming a bit more than i thought...Dealer is stating that the camber kits are required and even though they're only $97 each, being told that they require like 3 hrs labor which is really where the figure jumps...I've talked with people who stated that if the vehicle is only being lowered an inch front and rear that they are not required???

any input is very much appreciated...

fyi...comptech basically agreed w/ dealer when i asked...

bm

harddrivin1le

Buy the A-spec package directly from the Acura dealer and have that installed. You will save yourself a lot of headaches and have a PROPERLY ENGINEERED package when you're done.

You should upgrade shocks when you add lower/stiffer springs anyway.

The A-spec includes shocks, (lower and stiffer) springs, wheels/tires, choice of "wing" or spoiler, a different steering wheel and some badges.

They should be willing to give you a break on the A-Spec package, since you're already buying a new car from them.

harddrivin1le

Buy the A-spec package directly from the Acura dealer and have that installed. You will save yourself a lot of headaches and have a PROPERLY ENGINEERED package when you're done.

You should upgrade shocks when you add lower/stiffer springs anyway.

The A-spec includes shocks, (lower and stiffer) springs, wheels/tires, choice of "wing" or spoiler, a different steering wheel and some badges.

They should be willing to give you a break on the A-Spec package, since you're already buying a new car from them.

Acura will even roll the cost of the A-spec package/install into the loan for you.

VTEC=happiness

Unlike harddrivin1le, I am going to attempt to actually answer your question. As is noted throughout this thread, camber kits are completely unnecessary with this modification. Not sure who you talked to at Comptech, but I called them before getting my springs and they said no kit needed...I called my local dealer who told me the same. I know that there is at least one person who has had these dealer installed....the dealer had ordered the camber kit but sent it back noting that they found that it was not needed.

harddrivin1le

A thoroughly engineered (A-Spec, by Acura) spring/shock/wheel/tire kit is the proper way to go for this car....

Anything less is a butcher job.

mdao

I'm not trying to be hash, but I think you make your point numerious time with the A-Spec package. Are you working for acura BTW????

Lower the car it not that bad, it's just your EOM shock wear out faster. so Instead to be good for 200000km, then it's only for 150000km, but no big deal. You can intall the EOM spring back, or better install koni spring when it's available.


I get mine do by the acura dealers, and they were cool about it.

harddrivin1le

There's a lot more to it than premature shock wear.

Those of us who drive hard know that OEM shocks are incapable of properly damping the greater energy that is imparted by stiffer springs. And the harder you drive the worse it will get as the OEM shocks continue to OVERHEAT and the fluid inside turns to froth.

SEE BELOW:

harddrivin1le

http://www.hstuners.com/news/wmview.php?ArtID=50

Here's a manufacturer that sells springs for performance purposes (vs. cosmetics):

http://www.whiteline.com.au/default.../faqsprings.htm

"Yes, our springs will physically fit in the space as determined by the shock and suspension geometry but they are not designed to work with standard dampers, NO aftermarket lowered or heavier rate spring is... The most important thing therefore is to ensure that the shock supplied with the kit matches the springs, both in rate and performance characteristics. This is difficult enough to do for a suspension specialist armed with a shock dyno let alone the average customer so it pays to ask some specific questions and stick to known brands."

http://www.grmotorsports.com/shockstech.html

http://www.godspeedinc.com/suspension.html

"Keep in mind, however, that if your car is newer, the stock shocks will wear out quite a bit faster since they are trying to handle more load than they were designed to do...For most enthusiasts, springs are great for looks but simply put, will not increase your handling all that much and may cause some loss of performance in quick transitional cornering loads as the stock shocks can not handle those increased loads that the springs put on them. "

http://www.turnfast.com/tech_handli..._springs2.lasso

"Using Springs to Lower the Car

...Speaking of shocks, it is generally necessary to buy stiffer shocks at the same time you change the springs. Springs alone will lower the CG, and will reduce body roll, but neither is the primary function of the spring. For road imperfections, shocks work in conjunction with the spring, and are designed with each other's ratings in mind. Going over bumps, a stiff spring may resist the first compression well, but without sufficient shock capacity, the car will bounce more than it should afterwards which ultimately reduces the car's handling performance. Also, stiffer springs will prematurely fatigue stock shocks. They'll last a while, but will eventually get weaker and decrease the handling performance.

If you can only afford shocks or springs, either keep saving to get both, or start with the shocks. Performance shocks alone which provide firmer bump and rebound control, and greater control over weight transfer rate, will improve handing performance more than stiffer springs alone will."

Tecworld

That's perfect. Since the OEM shocks will wear out sooner, it gives us all an excuse to buy aftermarket shocks when they do.

harddrivin1le

But the vehicle will be underdamped until you install aftermarket shocks...

The TL is underdamped with the STOCK springs!:wow:

Tecworld

I know. But it's all good.

juniorbean

iTrader: (5)

Why all of a sudden the worry about lowering your car with stock shocks. People have been doing this for years with no problems... yes the shocks may wear out quicker.. but that's it.

I've had the H&R Sports on my car since August of 2002 (approximately 33k miles) with my stock shocks and I'm fine. I have just over 50k and still fine. And that's with the H&R Sports which lower my car ~1.75" f/r. The Comptech springs for the new TL only lower it about 1"......

harddrivin1le

No, that isn't "it" and if you think it is then you don't understand the function of the shock absorber and the meaning of the term "underdamped."

Aftermarket springs are stiffer; the OEM shocks are designed to handle those springs. The vehicle will therefore be under-damped, especially when driven hard.

There are MOUNDS of data/articles/books on this topic, including these:

http://www.hstuners.com/news/wmview.php?ArtID=50

Here's a manufacturer that sells springs for performance purposes (vs. cosmetics):

http://www.whiteline.com.au/default.../faqsprings.htm

"Yes, our springs will physically fit in the space as determined by the shock and suspension geometry but they are not designed to work with standard dampers, NO aftermarket lowered or heavier rate spring is... The most important thing therefore is to ensure that the shock supplied with the kit matches the springs, both in rate and performance characteristics. This is difficult enough to do for a suspension specialist armed with a shock dyno let alone the average customer so it pays to ask some specific questions and stick to known brands."

http://www.grmotorsports.com/shockstech.html

http://www.godspeedinc.com/suspension.html

"Keep in mind, however, that if your car is newer, the stock shocks will wear out quite a bit faster since they are trying to handle more load than they were designed to do...For most enthusiasts, springs are great for looks but simply put, will not increase your handling all that much and may cause some loss of performance in quick transitional cornering loads as the stock shocks can not handle those increased loads that the springs put on them. "

http://www.turnfast.com/tech_handli..._springs2.lasso

"Using Springs to Lower the Car

...Speaking of shocks, it is generally necessary to buy stiffer shocks at the same time you change the springs. Springs alone will lower the CG, and will reduce body roll, but neither is the primary function of the spring. For road imperfections, shocks work in conjunction with the spring, and are designed with each other's ratings in mind. Going over bumps, a stiff spring may resist the first compression well, but without sufficient shock capacity, the car will bounce more than it should afterwards which ultimately reduces the car's handling performance. Also, stiffer springs will prematurely fatigue stock shocks. They'll last a while, but will eventually get weaker and decrease the handling performance.

If you can only afford shocks or springs, either keep saving to get both, or start with the shocks. Performance shocks alone which provide firmer bump and rebound control, and greater control over weight transfer rate, will improve handing performance more than stiffer springs alone will."

juniorbean

iTrader: (5)

Thanks for the reply. BTW, you posted that same exact thing one page back....

The literature is nice and it's a good read and all, however, when you're talking about the real world and real world applications, the experience I've had is generally the experience most people have had when lowering their car (assuming the drop is not more then 1.5"). If you have read the boards over the last 3-4 years or so you'll notice that 98% of the people who lowered their cars with Comptech or the H&R OE or H&R Sport springs have not had problems with their struts and were able to keep them for their full expected life (more or less) with no affects from lowering. You're talking thousands of cars here. Mine for example.... I have about 20k miles with springs (H&R Sports, which is one of the lower drops) and over 50k miles total on my stock struts... and that's pretty much the norm.

Plus, when you're dealing with Comptech springs their rates are so very similar to stock that it's almost negligable, especially with the new TL springs. That's why Comptech is so popular and also why they are accepted and even installed by most Acura Dealers. If you're talking about a Neuspeed, Eibach or H&R Race drop... well, different story entirely.

So, like I said, the links are a nice read... and I'm not arguing that what they're saying isn't true.. because most of it probably is, however, take it with a grain of salt b/c in the real world thousands of people over the past few years have lowered their cars on stock struts and been fine.

harddrivin1le

Comptech springs are, on average, ~ 35% stiffer than stock.

They HAVE to be stiffer in order to offset the reduction in available suspension travel that occurs as a result of lowering. The car would be bottom out regularly if the lowering springs had the same spring constant as the OEM springs.

The TL is UNDERDAMPED with the stock springs! It will be far worse with shorter (and hence, STIFFER) aftermarket ones.

The stock shocks will "work," but they're far from optimum, particularly for vehicles that are DRIVEN. It's a little like playing a $1,000 amp through a set of $100 speakers...

Many people further exacerbate this problem by installing larger (and HEAVIER) wheels and tires. That additional weight is all UNSPRUNG and works the shock that much harder.

The fact of the matter is that most people are more concerned about appearances then they are about HANDLING.:wow: