dom

I agree. Better products = Sales, but Nissan had Renault give them a huge influx of cash and R&D to make those models possible. Honda won't have that kind ability unless their bought out.

Nissan/Renault is on the warpath. They've done two things Honda won't do.
- Make a RWD Platform (or two)
- Make a V8 (or two)

majormojo

That's a key point there - Acura seems to be nearly invisible, and even those that know the brand can't clearly state what it stands for. "Luxury/Performance" is kinda vague, and they aren't likely to out-lux Lexus any time soon. So IMO they ought to focus on the "technology showcase" and performance angles a bit more. They still need to make "luxury" vehicles but they need to put the high-tech spin on them.

Some brief thoughts, some already mentioned:

Honda/Acura should have refreshed the NSX by now.

They should have sold the S2000 as an Acura.

They desperately need a RWD V8 flagship.

Two years is too long to wait for the smaller SUV.

The TSX will probably have to have V6 & AWD to survive past this current version.

acura_driver

Personally, I wish the TL were RWD with a V8. But I'm not sure that it would sell better than FWD/V6.

-r

wawa

it makes sense. I would never thought of buying the Acura before the Acura TSX came out. I think the BMW 325i, Lexus IS300 or Infinity G35 were on top of my list. Well.. I think Acura is back on the right track now. And they have created 2 great lineups - 2004 Acura TSX and 2004 Acura TL. I think they will be able to fight back with these 2 awesome models.

TMQ

Consumers are smart enough to know a newly designed TL is coming out and stay clear of the old TLs. But they should do fine with the new TL out. Also, more competition in the luxury/performance segment with Infiniti's recent vehicles. This particular segment that Acura wants to get more stuff out is quite crowded with the likes of Audi and BMW.

On the SUV side, Lexus RX300/330 is doing really well, despite the sort of ugly new exterior design. I know Acura MDX is selling very well too, but I have no idea why Lexus' vehicles are so popular. I can see why Acura needs another SUV to compete in the segment, with infiniti's FX etc. Any comments?

ILOVELEGEND

This news article is not good for Acura. However, I'm very hopeful that the new TSX and TL they sell quite well. The re-designed RL is on it's way and they better not drop the ball on that.
Acura has made quite a few mistakes and they kind of lost their direction for a while. The biggest mistake they did was dropping the name Legend. After that they came out with RL and TL models - which were big and uninspiring cars. The 2nd Gen TL was a big hit. RL should have undergone a re-design a while back but Acura just let it suffer.
I own 2 Legends, a 91 and 94GS. The 94GS is such a pleasure to drive even today and it looks great even after 10 years!!

Well, I hope Acura wakes up and catches up - I really want to see Acura do well!!

Dan Martin

I agree about the better products = better sales but I disagree that Honda doesn't have the R&D money that Nissan does. Honda is a $73B USD company whereas Nissan is a $56B company. I think Honda can afford a little R&D here and there.

I am curious though, does anyone know what the relationship is between Nissan and Renault. I always thought that Renault was the parent company of Nissan but according to their website they are only a $21B company. I must have things mixed up...

neuronbob

I think the TL and the TSX, with aggressive marketing, can help to hold the brand together while Acura comes up with another SUV. As much as I hate SUVs, I realize how popular they've become and am a bit surprised that Acura hasn't been more aggressive in that sphere.

The two cars, though, are awesome enough in their own right to be hot sellers for Acura for some time. They have enough features to satisfy most drivers looking for a mix of sporty and lux, and this is where Acura ought to market itself. Lexus markets itself as "the pursuit of perfection" of luxury, BMW markets itself as "the ultimate driving machine", Acura can be "the ultimate blend of sport, luxury, and technology" or something like that.

Also, similar styling (e.g. "brand engineering") is something all the other luxury carmakers have done for some time. For example, the 3 series BMW looks like the (prior) 5 series and the (prior) 7 series. I think the RL will have similar styling cues to the TL and TSX for that reason.

SporTrac

Well, I have to admit that I "was" hell bent on the new TL. I LOVE tech gadgets, and it seems to be loaded with that, al beit that it DOESN'T have a "automatic" telescoping/tilt steering wheel, which I miss since selling my '98 Lincoln Mark VIII. But after such articles as this, I may not be so inclined to buy an Acura. Don't get me wrong, I think the new TL is hot, but I've always wanted a Bimmer.
I guess it's time to rethink the whole process, again.
I mean, when it gets down to it, it's just a car, to get you from point A to point B. Sure it's a nice ride from point A to point B, but is it worth the $35K, with such bad press as this, or at least I take it as bad press.
I've never really thought about buying an Acura until I read about the new '04 TL. I've always considered them subpar. Every Acura I see around here is "tricked out" by a bunch of teens/early 20's bunch of kids, which puts me off. But the new TL, which is out of most of their price range, is one more nice car. Too bad Honda has to lag behind.
We'll see I guess.

dom

Look Above.....





SEE....I told you it would happen

dom

Interesting, I had no idea Honda was that much bigger than Nissan. Now we all though Nissan was doing great in North America, which they are, but late last year Nissan also surpassed Honda as Japan's 2nd largest Manufactuer, not in profits or worth but in the number of cars they built and sell.

Honda may be worth $73BUS, but how many Billions of that is tied up in Motor Cycles/Scooters, Small Engines, Lawn Mowers, Generators, Snow Blowers, Robots etc. Honda is a much more diverse company.

I'm not sure how much percent Renault owns of Nissan Motor Co. but they definently have controlling intrest. Theres a French guy who calls all the shots....whats his name?

tuan209

I had a deposit for a TSX blk on blk 6spd, but I am now rethinking it too. I was actually torn b/w the TSX and 04TL. The TSX in my opinion is a great car but 4 banger kinda made me not want it. The TL is great also but for 35k I I wanted a RWD car. I really wished Honda would step it up. I think I will wait until the summer to make the decision. Im waiting to see how the new Lexus IS330 will turn out.

The TSX should be v6 rwd 250hp for around 30-32k
The TL should be a v6 or v8 rwd ~300HP for around 40k

ccheung

As an Acura consultant, I have only seen sales reports going upwards and never really downwards. Acura buyers are more educated and they will never just chase behind the name plate. Most people buy Lexus, BMW and MB because of their luxury brands. Should we jack up the price and just go ahead and throw every single piece of luxury items and call it a day? No, that's not what Honda and Acura is all about. It's all about value to the customers even you are buying a luxury vehicle!

helloha

Same here.
I was thinking to get TL too, but 35k is kind of high to me for and "near" lux car.
TSX is great, built in Japan. but 2.4L V4 200hp really put me off that (My 97 3.0CL has 200hp too, need more). the new 2.0L/220hp Euro-R Engine should be nicer.
But all of TSX/TL are FWR which means it will swing a lots when corning for the poeple are the back.
Then, here comes the G35 factor. Great exterior looks. Nice Cornering and performance, and NEW AWD really want me to get this car, but I don't like the cheesy interior look.
For Ride Quality and Lux for 35k, I should really thinking to get the ES330 then. Quite ride, not so fake wood trim inside, nicer Mark Levison stereo, (Not sure how the new ELS DVD-Audio will sounds like in New TL, but I know my 02 MDX's Bose sounds pretty bad.... for the price I paid, and No Navi update for 2 years). But again the cheesy engine 230hp? ES330 is the main reason of not getting this car.)

Cons:
TL: FWR, bad service.
G35: chessy Interior, and built quality is quetionalbe.
ES330: smaller enigne. FWD

larchmont

WHOA! Wait a minute, everybody -- hold your horses. IMHO, this is bullshit.

I don't mean it isn't true, just that it's very misleading. Acura's stats for the year to date are obviously affected by the discontinuation of the old TL. Even with heavy discounting, it's hard to move a car like that.

With sales of the new TL starting this month, Acura's stats will pick up, and maybe catch up. But don't expect to be able to interpret Acura's stats in any normal way or draw any usual types of conclusions from them till 2004.

acura tl guy

From my experiences and observations of Honda, they are extremely conservative. However, I tend to disagree with the projection of a drop in sales for the upcoming year. There is a growing buzz in the market for the TL and the TSX. The problem for Acura is that the consumers are finding out about these models very slowly. I found out recently (a month or two ago) about these models. I predict they will have a better sales year than they expect. I was closely looking at a GS 430 after test driving a Maxima. Once I found out about the redesigned TL, I knew it was the car. I'm not really a Lexus type of guy but I liked the ride, build quality and horses. After driving the TL the other day, I'm certain it can run with the GS430 and at a savings of about $20k.

Got a deposit on a Pearl White w/Navi. I understand this color is going like hot cakes.

Kids....PICK ANOTHER COLOR...so we all won't be driving the same car!!!!! LOL

tuan209

Dont get me wrong, I still think the TSX and TL are great cars and I may even end up with one of them. The fact is the TSX is 27k and the TL is 33k, both are not cheap. I just wanted to see how the new Lex IS330 looked. I heard it might be AWD but at the very least it is a RWD all for around 30-33k. IF the is330 is around that price and looked decent I think it is more of a car. I really love the ext/int of the TSX but spending 27k for a v4 and FWD makes me think =D

Also I like the fact that Lexus is always willing to deal. A month or 2 after the Rx330 was released my parents got it for 3k off msrp. Same when my friend got the is300 when it was release.

larchmont

I really don't understand that most people seem to put so much emphasis on this. If they're "dealing" on the car, it means that they're having trouble moving it at MSRP, and the car is overpriced to begin with. It means the MSRP in such cases is an artifically HIGH number -- and so they have to lower it to sell the car. It doesn't mean you're getting a bargain -- That's an illusion.

Lexus won't always be willing to deal -- it just depends on whether they're having trouble moving the car at MSRP.

acura_driver

I think that Acura should price their cars reasonably in the first place, and sell them all at MSRP. (Which I think Acura does in general.) And only drop the price during end of year close-out. Making prices artificially high, and then giving big discounts cheapens the brand name.

As for the price of the 04TL, I think it is priced right on the money. For those that think it is too high, buy the TSX or Accord, they are very good cars too.

-r

legendguy

My '92 Legend has not given me a lick of trouble in 11 years and that is why I am an Acura fan. Plus, the scheduled service has been cheap over that time. Dropping the Legend, Integra names (losing Vigor name was good IMHO) was probably a mistake but is more in line with the traditional luxury car lines. This year they dropped the number (eg. 3.5) from the front of the letters (eg. RL) and this should help (although not as much as BMW or Audi do- almost everyone knows what a 3-series is and the difference between A4, A6, A8). Acura has made some marketing blunders but what they consistently do is make a quality car with excellent manners that doesn't cost as much as the competition. I would designate them as the "Sensible persons Luxury-sport car". I get more personal satisfaction in knowing that my car is just as good or better and cost less and that I will not pay through the nose for the few repairs it will need. I would rather have that than to know that I'm driving a machine that everyone knows is expensive (eg. BMW, Mercedes). This has been a down year for acura: MDX now has some competition, '03 TL was old news, RL seemed even older, Honda got the S2000, and there just haven't been that many TSXs made. But with the TL should come new interest, especially when Consumer Reports does a review. The RSX is good. Hopefully the new RL will be a class leader and the smaller SUV will come along soon. Then Acura will have a nearly complete stable of top-notch automobiles to carry it forward. I'm sticking with them.

phile

Isn't it amazing how huge the gap is in the Acura lineup? You have the RL at roughly 46K, and then nothing...until 90K and you run into the NSX. Acura needs some more cars to fill in that gap, like a 60K car or SUV or even another sports car.

first99TL

A very misleading article indeed! Acura's numbers look pretty good compared to some of the "true" luxury brands. It's the economy, stupid!

The following is an article posted on auto spies.

Larger SUV than M-class in development by Mercedes-Benz and CLS to make it into production

Article confirms Auto Spies predictions

Highlights from the article:

Mercedes has its hands full fending off rivals - not just aggressive BMW and cash-rich Lexus, but also Audi and Japanese relative newcomers Infiniti and Acura. Executives are working flat-out on a product offensive that will include two new Mercedes SUVs, one of them larger than the current M-Class, and an SUV under the Smart brand.

At the Frankfurt auto show, Mercedes also unveiled a four-door coupe, the CLS, with a crafted interior that's far more stylish than anything currently available in the lineup. It's expected to debut in late 2004.

But the high-volume heavy hitters will not be rolling out until late next year. Meanwhile, Mercedes sales are slipping this year, dragged down by slumping demand for older models. The recent launches of the E-Class sedan and Maybach super-limo have not offset a 26 percent drop in M-Class SUV sales, a 15 percent drop in sales of C-Class cars and a 31 percent drop in sales of the C-Class sport coupe.

Jason

How can one misleading article change your entire perception of a brand? Because of one article you have lost your ability to appreciate a terrific automobile? Come on man. If you are interested in paying for a brand's name, buy a 330i and spend your $35k and get a nice (relatively stripped) car. Or you can get a TL loaded for $33k.

WTF does this USA Today know about Acura anyway? Their guy Healey praises everything Acura comes out with, so I have no idea where they're coming from in this one.

wawa

Totally agree with you! I think Acura/Honda offers the best value automobiles in the industry. Well.. I do know most of the people just like to go after those luxury like BMW, MB , Lexus without knowing what they are actually buying. I am not mutli-millionaire and I think I will only go after the best value. I think Acura has done a great job of creating Acura TSX and TL. Both are great cars with great performance and packages.

Jason

I bet you are the guy that buys jewelry at the mall. You see 40% off and think you're stealing it from them. Memo to tuan: these types of stores mark the goods up 400% and then take 40% off the price. The net effect is you get robbed.

The same idea can be applied to cars, though I do have much more respect for Lexus than Zales. The RX330 is a very expensive station wagon. You take a wagon like the MDX and it is substantially lower in price. The RX330 has to deal just to stay in the ballpark.

Jason

BTW, what is everyone's preoccupation with RWD?

phile

I gotta disagree here (not about the overcharging part). The MDX isn't exactly a bargain either. What you get with the RX330 is a much nicer interior (real wood, finer leather, finer materials overall), Xenon headlights (I can't believe Acura still has not put Xenons on the MDX), swiveling headlights, and nicer paint that doesn't chip easily. I can see the RX330 being worth the extra 1-2K over an MDX. But the real world price difference, with similar features, is much greater between the two, so I do agree that the RX330 is overpriced.

majormojo

It's just another manifestation of the retro-chic trend. Everything old is new again.

gilboman

wrong..honda/acura cant because nobody would buy it if they tried to charge the price of real luxury autos...its naive to think acura dont want charge lexus/BMW level prices to make a nice margin on their vehicles because they choose not to..they cant.. the brand acura is not worth much right now...has to rely on the low price/feature ratio to sell... people will pay more for a MB,Lexus,BMW because the brand is worth big money...acura isnt...ACura has been trying for sure..but never succeeded. so they do the only thing they can to stay alive..sell low cost cars at low prices...by going through the honda parts bin and a little bid of rebadging, add in features and sell at low price....which is not a bad thing to a consumer at all, Honda makes great cars...just not luxury or sporty ones....

1SICKLEX

You get what u pay for. People got value all focked up. For example:
Say the German car "Standard" is 40k.
A value is a competitor offering the SAME FEATURES for say 36k.
Cheap is a competitor offering LESS FEATURES but having marketing SAY is is a VALUE and charge 32k.

When u go to Wal-Mart, a value is buying the same product there you may buy at another store for say $1.00 cheaper.
If you go to Wal-Mart and buy the generic brand that is $2.00 cheaper, that is not truly value, just buying a cheaper product.

jwaters943

Not to mention the RX has less HP, is quite a bit smaller w/ only 2 rows of seats and when equipped like you stated above has an MSRP of around $45-46k

Each vehicle has their pros/cons. The MDX is priced just about right IMO.

dom

Its a stigma created by people like Gilbo (No offense Gilbo) and the writers at mags like Car & Driver. While I agree that a RWD car may outhandle a FWD car, the difference is only noticeable at the limits of handling.

But I still believe the TSX should have been a RWD car purely for marketing reason's. Purely to appease the Gilbo's and Car & Driver writers of the world. I would have never have bought a RWD car, so I'm happy the TSX is FWD but I wonder how FWD TSX sales would have compared to RWD TSX sales? My guess is that Honda marketing research has proven that higher profits and sales are in the FWD drive market, or they would have created a RWD platform a long time ago.

neoprufrok

There is a reason why inifiniti is all of a sudden doing well. They decided that awd/rwd was the way to go and that aggressive engine/transmission development was what was necessary to compete.

I hope Acura goes that way, but they need to not make the one mistake that Infiniti made - putting in cheap ass looking interiors. I was all for the g35 until I sat in one and was aghast at how ugly the guages and everything looked. I love my Audi.

Moog-Type-S

Acura lacks head turning style, and real performance. FWD is not real performance. Acura needs RWD/AWD to compete with Audi & BMW. Cutting edge style will help too. The new TL is a start, but there is a long way to go in terms of style to the other cars in the line-up. Let's see what 2005 has in store.

AcuraFan

There is a reason, but I think the RWD conversion it not it. They are using powerful engines, cutting edge styling, and aggressive marketing. They're creating a buzz in the industry. That's how they turned around. I mean, Nissan itself was in the crapper until this recent turnaround and none or their sedans are RWD or AWD. I bet a majority of BMW, Lexus or Inifniti owners don't even know that their car is RWD...it's just not that important to most luxury car buyers.

If Acura beefs up their image (styling, marketing, etc), they'll do just fine in turning the company around.

Sarlacc

I too agree with this statement. And it will not be an overnight project to turn Acura around. It will take some time and hopefully no failures. I think they have a good start with the TSX and TL. So lets hope they keep it up.

And as mentioned Nissan/Ifiniti had one foot in the grave for years before they suddenly turned it all around. Hell, Infiniti was in such bad shape it was set to no longer exist.

Acura will pull through.

tsx-mdxman

The timing of this article couldn't have been more off. MDX sales set a September record and TSX is taking off. Both made the WSJ hot movers list in August and September (among the ten cars moving off dealers' lots the fastest). What hurt Acura this year is slow TL, RSX, CL and RSX sales. I think the RSX could have benefited from a "refresh" this year (it's 3rd), with a little more HP, TSX type dash/interior (I hate the RSX's current dials). Instead, there were no changes. That's a mistake and sales are off. The RL is a dinosaur. Nuff' said. The TL problem has been solved with a far more exciting product currently on the shelf. As for the CL, 2 door coupes need a lot of panache to be successful and that segment isn't very large to begin with. I'll bet they stay out of that market for now. Overall, though, there is absolutely nothing wrong with Honda's basic approach with the Acura marque - luxury, performance AND value. I would never consider an Infinity or especially a Lexus a good value, though they are fine products (though I'd probably never buy an Infinit, I have considered Lexus in the past).
RWD brings better balance to the equation and perhaps better performance at or near the limit...but how many owners will really push their cars that far? And FWD in crappy conditions (i.e., snow and ice) is a definite plus. I also don't get the preoccupation with RWD.
IMHO, the German side of the disastrous Daimler-Chrysler union is pushing that company toward RWD simply because that's what they're comfortable with, not because it's going to dramatically improve the performance of the line. What a mistake! Pretty soon, you can kiss Chrysler goodbye. Stick to your guns, Honda!
_______________________________
04 TSX CG AT/NAV
03 MDX SSM TOURING/NAV/RES

1SICKLEX

Nissan has done a few great things for the turnaround.
1. SHARE, SHARE, SHARE EVERYTHING possible to cut costs
2. 3.5 VQ stuffed in everything they make
3. Eye catching styling no matter you like it or not
4. Better marketing. It is much improved than before.

RWD is neccessary and to a lesser extent AWD. Do you HONESTLY THINK a 04 Infiniti version of the NIssan Maxima would have jumped Infiniti sales like the G35? HELL NO. THe I30/35 is a sub-par sports sedan, Nissan woke up and made a real sports sedan based off the stretched 350Z chassis.

On the other hand, Infiniti had NO WHERE TO GO BUT UP. SHit their cars sucked, they had 2 cars and 1 SUV some model years
I30
Q45
QX 4
Hell, their track record is still horrible. G20 sucked and is discontinued, the J30 sucked and got discontinued, the M30 sucked and got discontinued, the QX4 is now discontinued.


And honestly, it's not like Acura sales plummeted 30 or 50%. Once Acura sells 25k-40k cars, they will find 150k buyers a year.

justinjsw

Took the words right out of my mouth. The great down fall of Acura...is in my mind just a bit overblown. They took the first three quarters of the yr into account when the product such as the 03TL, CL and RL are all either getting replaced or dropped. The TSX didn't hit till April and sales didn't pick up till the summer. I wonder if the same time next yr, if that article will still ring true...with a full production run of the TSX, 04TL, 04MDX and 05RL. With that said Im not saying Honda shouldn't come out with a better mix of cars...coupes, AWD, Hybrids etc...maybe even a V8 that we all seem to want but only 10% will buy.

heyitsme

honestly, yea i think a new fwd i35 would have sold as well or even better than the g35. i'm pretty sure the old i35 used to sell the same numbers the g35 does now.

have no idea what acura is doing, they haven't really done anything thus far to get me interested enough to buy one. for once i would like to see them do something totally unexpected.