NHTSA Investigation Into Tranny Closed!
03-11-2003, 07:23 PM
#1
Suzuka Master
Thread Starter
NHTSA Investigation Into Tranny Closed!
The NHTSA investigation into the Acura transmission is now closed.
The previous contact for D. Scott Yon is no longer valid. He is no longer working on the case.
If you are having problems with your transmission, please fill out the form on the NHTSA website: Vehicle Owners Questionnaire
We received notice that Scott is not longer involved (please don't call him).
NHTSA contact number: 1-888-DASH-2-DOT (1-888-327-4236).
Further information follows in subsequent posts (in this thread).
The previous contact for D. Scott Yon is no longer valid. He is no longer working on the case.
If you are having problems with your transmission, please fill out the form on the NHTSA website: Vehicle Owners Questionnaire
We received notice that Scott is not longer involved (please don't call him).
NHTSA contact number: 1-888-DASH-2-DOT (1-888-327-4236).
Further information follows in subsequent posts (in this thread).
03-11-2003, 07:29 PM
#2
Suzuka Master
Thread Starter
Additional information from Ken347
THIS WAS POSTED BY KEN347:
new info
I have been considering the purchase of a new TL (I have a '90 Integra, my wife has an '02 MDX), and I was quite concerned when I happened upon this newsgroup and read about the transmission problems detailed in many posts. In the hopes of ferreting out some more information, I called Scott Yon (the NHTSA investigator on the case) and I learned some interesting things:
1) The NHTSA closed the case on 3/5/03.
2) There were no compelling safety issues that required further action at this time. The initial conclusion is that a quality issue underlies the complaints, but that there was not enough evidence to push the investigation to the next phase.
3) 165 transmission-based complaints out of a population of 295,026 cars (0.06%) were recorded. Of these complaints, 69 involved a sudden downshift. While Mr. Yon acknowledges that this downshift can lead to a serious accident, there were no reported incidents where this outcome, in fact, occurred.
4) Most incidents of transmission failure were preceded by warning signs, but some were sudden and precipitous. He faulted Acura for not publicizing the problem vigorously enough?that is, warning drivers that if they experience the following warning signs, they should seek repair immediately.
5) Mr. Yon did remark that he would have no qualms about driving, or having his family drive, an Acura sedan.
6) Acura has done a lot of work trying to identify and then rectify the problem. They have found some putative causes for the transmission failure, but Mr. Yon was not willing to conclude that they have found all of the possible flaws.
7) The transmissions manufactured after June 2002 (after the VIN listed in the extended warrantee notification) allegedly incorporated fixes for the problems that Acura could identify.
8) No incidents of transmission failure involving transmissions manufactured after June 2002 were reported to the NHTSA. Mr. Yon feels its still too early to tell if the problem(s) is fixed yet. The average mileage on a failed transmission is approximately 18K miles, although some failed at < 5K miles.
Hope that this helps
Ken
__________________
Ken
new info
I have been considering the purchase of a new TL (I have a '90 Integra, my wife has an '02 MDX), and I was quite concerned when I happened upon this newsgroup and read about the transmission problems detailed in many posts. In the hopes of ferreting out some more information, I called Scott Yon (the NHTSA investigator on the case) and I learned some interesting things:
1) The NHTSA closed the case on 3/5/03.
2) There were no compelling safety issues that required further action at this time. The initial conclusion is that a quality issue underlies the complaints, but that there was not enough evidence to push the investigation to the next phase.
3) 165 transmission-based complaints out of a population of 295,026 cars (0.06%) were recorded. Of these complaints, 69 involved a sudden downshift. While Mr. Yon acknowledges that this downshift can lead to a serious accident, there were no reported incidents where this outcome, in fact, occurred.
4) Most incidents of transmission failure were preceded by warning signs, but some were sudden and precipitous. He faulted Acura for not publicizing the problem vigorously enough?that is, warning drivers that if they experience the following warning signs, they should seek repair immediately.
5) Mr. Yon did remark that he would have no qualms about driving, or having his family drive, an Acura sedan.
6) Acura has done a lot of work trying to identify and then rectify the problem. They have found some putative causes for the transmission failure, but Mr. Yon was not willing to conclude that they have found all of the possible flaws.
7) The transmissions manufactured after June 2002 (after the VIN listed in the extended warrantee notification) allegedly incorporated fixes for the problems that Acura could identify.
8) No incidents of transmission failure involving transmissions manufactured after June 2002 were reported to the NHTSA. Mr. Yon feels its still too early to tell if the problem(s) is fixed yet. The average mileage on a failed transmission is approximately 18K miles, although some failed at < 5K miles.
Hope that this helps
Ken
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Ken
03-18-2003, 12:58 PM
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OMG, what a sad day. That's all I can say, sad, very very sad.
Some penny thoughts from me (just my thoughts).......
1) I hope it can be re-opened...
2) If this is a 'quality issue' than what is a 'safety issue', I'm confused ???
3) 'Yet' being the keyword. What about Shyne, I'm pretty darn sure he reported to them his devastating accident presumed to be rooted to the tranny failure.
4) Agree.
5) How can he say that after the answer to #3? That is why numerous board members have unloaded their cars....
6) Agree. Another reason I hope this case can be re-opened when warranted.
7) So what? They are still failing....
8) If it's too early, than why is this closed???
Man-oh-man I'm glad I'm not in the situation of fighting another dead tranny at the moment or this would send me over the top. I guess the biggest thing to take away from this for future tranny problem owners is to get a good lawyer and line your ducks up in a clean straight line.
-copland007
Some penny thoughts from me (just my thoughts).......
1) I hope it can be re-opened...
2) If this is a 'quality issue' than what is a 'safety issue', I'm confused ???
3) 'Yet' being the keyword. What about Shyne, I'm pretty darn sure he reported to them his devastating accident presumed to be rooted to the tranny failure.
4) Agree.
5) How can he say that after the answer to #3? That is why numerous board members have unloaded their cars....
6) Agree. Another reason I hope this case can be re-opened when warranted.
7) So what? They are still failing....
8) If it's too early, than why is this closed???
Man-oh-man I'm glad I'm not in the situation of fighting another dead tranny at the moment or this would send me over the top. I guess the biggest thing to take away from this for future tranny problem owners is to get a good lawyer and line your ducks up in a clean straight line.
-copland007
03-18-2003, 04:26 PM
#6
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The TL and CL continue to get the highest reliability rating by Consumer Reports while BMW 3 series and X5s get the lowest.
Crazy.
My tranny is whining, is that an early enough sign??
Crazy.
My tranny is whining, is that an early enough sign??
03-18-2003, 09:55 PM
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ALot of these problems, locking ingear, loosing the gearbox and then finding it with a collosal clunk, are typical of a valve body problem. The valve body controls gear shifting and the needles can be affected by dirt, temperature, especially if made out of different materials to the body itself.
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03-23-2003, 06:24 PM
#8
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My transmission WAS sudden and precipitous. No warning sign at all. Thankfully I was only going 45-50 when the transmission slammed into second. I get it back sometime this week. That said, I am done with Acura. My 97 CL did an imitation of the Exxon Valdez when the counter balance seal broke. A week after that I received the recall notice. Two major failures from Acura is not acceptable.
03-24-2003, 04:17 PM
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THree trannies in 10 days.....First replaced because "third gear bundle" worn. I was given a piece of crap rental for a week. Three days later, the tranny shuts down entirely on a busy road, 220 miles from home/dealer. Dealer eventually flat-beds truck back. They are now deciding whether or not to replace the whole transmission again, or fix the supposedly problematic "cellenoids".
The dealer said thay are generally replacing as many as 4 transmissions per week. THis is my fifth Honda/Acura. There will be no more. Thedealer also stated that the bad transmissions are simply being replaced with rebuilds. Inexscusable.
At what point is a car allowed for the "lemon law"? Anyone know?
The dealer said thay are generally replacing as many as 4 transmissions per week. THis is my fifth Honda/Acura. There will be no more. Thedealer also stated that the bad transmissions are simply being replaced with rebuilds. Inexscusable.
At what point is a car allowed for the "lemon law"? Anyone know?
04-05-2003, 11:50 PM
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The trans on my 01' CLS went about a week a ago. It started slipping on a Monday and 2 days later on Wednesday It was stuck in 2nd gear (car has 47K miles on it). Acura picked it up and although I was told it would take 2 weeks to fix because they had to order a new transmission, it was ready for me in 5 days. Thank god.....because you don't get a cool loaner like you do at Lexus (Lexus gives you a lexus) you get stuck in a Suzuki Grand Vitara from Enterprise. Anyway my baby is back and running like new.
05-26-2003, 03:45 PM
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Well I hate to say it but add 1 more to the TL/CL tranny failures. My '01 CL trans crapped out just short of 36k & 35 months old. After almost 30 year of cars, this is my first car to have transmission problems. Something I expected from a Ford NOT Honda/Acura. At least I know could/should happen.
Symptoms were just after backing out of the driveway & putting it into D, I got a loud thunk, kind of like missing a shift on a manual. A few miles later, after shifting from 2nd to 3rd the RPM redlined & whined, it did this 2-3 times on the way back to the dealer.
Here the kicker, I had just picked it up from the shop (same day 4-hours earlier) after an oil-change, balance & rotate. The rotors are becoming another real problem (3-4 times now), I jokingly said to the service rep that Acura needs to extend the warranty on the brakes/rotors like the transmission. I must have JINX it, needless to say it has greatly lessen my opinion of Acura Q&A. My shop has 1 other TL/CL waiting on a tranny in front of me. At least my dealer has free loaners, so I'm not without wheels.
Symptoms were just after backing out of the driveway & putting it into D, I got a loud thunk, kind of like missing a shift on a manual. A few miles later, after shifting from 2nd to 3rd the RPM redlined & whined, it did this 2-3 times on the way back to the dealer.
Here the kicker, I had just picked it up from the shop (same day 4-hours earlier) after an oil-change, balance & rotate. The rotors are becoming another real problem (3-4 times now), I jokingly said to the service rep that Acura needs to extend the warranty on the brakes/rotors like the transmission. I must have JINX it, needless to say it has greatly lessen my opinion of Acura Q&A. My shop has 1 other TL/CL waiting on a tranny in front of me. At least my dealer has free loaners, so I'm not without wheels.
05-28-2003, 04:10 PM
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Ha..Let me give you a list of the cars that my family has/had.
97 Integra - Tranny Replaced
96 Accord - Tranny Replaced
00 Accord - Tranny Replaced
01 CL-S - Tranny Replaced
00 Civic - No Tranny Problems so far.
Out of all these cars, all of them are active aside from the Integra. My family has had all Hondas, and we've been faithful to them. After all these trannies dying, do you guys honestly think I would ever buy a Honda/Acura again? I fuckn doubt it.
97 Integra - Tranny Replaced
96 Accord - Tranny Replaced
00 Accord - Tranny Replaced
01 CL-S - Tranny Replaced
00 Civic - No Tranny Problems so far.
Out of all these cars, all of them are active aside from the Integra. My family has had all Hondas, and we've been faithful to them. After all these trannies dying, do you guys honestly think I would ever buy a Honda/Acura again? I fuckn doubt it.
05-30-2003, 12:28 AM
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Maybe this is old news. You can find the NHTSA report on the Acura CL/TL at http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/cars/pr...ct/results.cfm
Search "Defect Investigations",vehicle, select year, make, model and component. There are three documents. Document 2 has the most information and is 15655kb in size as a .pdf file. (1046 pages.)
Here are some details from this pdf file:
Letter dated Jan 31, 2003 from Managing Counsel American Honda William R. Willien. for 2000-2003 TL and CL.
From Page 2: Consumer fleet reports 48. Field dealer reports 71. Crash injury fatality reports 9. Warranty Claims 239. Ext warranty claims 966.
Here are some more technical excerpts: (I am not an engineer.)
from page 975: cause listed was abnormal wear of 3rd clutch.
Rapid clutch wear -->> slipping, or flare, or no engagement-->>
strainer gets clogged with worn clutch powder-->>reduce pressure and clutch lube-->>worn powder increases further-->>
slipping, flare, no engagement. -->> Modulator clogged-->> modulator presure low-->> downshift to 2nd.
Disassembly result: most had 3rd clutch burnt, hydraulic circuits contaminated. Some had 3rd, 4th and 5th clutch burnt.
Page 988 says in an attempt to quantify or minimize the seriousness of the situation: Total sales:681.103. Total warranty claims 9234 = 1.4%. Total warranty claims 9234. 3rd clutch failure 5375.
5-2 sudden downshift 84. = 84/681103 = 0.01%
The report further claims that the vehicle in not unstable with the sudden downshift because the speed change is small.
2 countermeasures applied to production line 4/2002 and 5/2002:
Improvement surface roughness 3rd gear clutch plate. Improvement of ECU data hydraulic pressure characteristic.
Same applied after-service 4/2002 and scheduled Dec. 2002.
From page 996: Factors causing 3rd clutch burning narrowed to surface roughness of clutch plate and high Q/A (J/cm2) while shifting, (Page 1001
especially at low temperature. (this appears to mean too high hydraulic pressure when 2-3 upshifting).
(Cause is not overheating).
Clearest summary seems to be on page 1013. It is posted sideways and is hard to read. And seems to be the last major page of the report in English. Much follows in Japanese.
1)I am not an engineer.
2)Cause is not overheating of the trans as a whole. Local overheating seems a problem. Some features are worse at low temp. It is unclear whether trans coolers, flushing or changing fluid will help the problem.
3)Clutch dust clogs the hydraulics but there is no easily replacable filter in the Honda design. It is unclear whether flushing or changing fluid will help the problem.
4)One hopes that the parts in your transmission are made after April-May2002.
5)One hopes that if the trans is to go bad, it will do so within the warranty.
6)One hopes that these findings really fix the problem.
Thanks for your patience.
Search "Defect Investigations",vehicle, select year, make, model and component. There are three documents. Document 2 has the most information and is 15655kb in size as a .pdf file. (1046 pages.)
Here are some details from this pdf file:
Letter dated Jan 31, 2003 from Managing Counsel American Honda William R. Willien. for 2000-2003 TL and CL.
From Page 2: Consumer fleet reports 48. Field dealer reports 71. Crash injury fatality reports 9. Warranty Claims 239. Ext warranty claims 966.
Here are some more technical excerpts: (I am not an engineer.)
from page 975: cause listed was abnormal wear of 3rd clutch.
Rapid clutch wear -->> slipping, or flare, or no engagement-->>
strainer gets clogged with worn clutch powder-->>reduce pressure and clutch lube-->>worn powder increases further-->>
slipping, flare, no engagement. -->> Modulator clogged-->> modulator presure low-->> downshift to 2nd.
Disassembly result: most had 3rd clutch burnt, hydraulic circuits contaminated. Some had 3rd, 4th and 5th clutch burnt.
Page 988 says in an attempt to quantify or minimize the seriousness of the situation: Total sales:681.103. Total warranty claims 9234 = 1.4%. Total warranty claims 9234. 3rd clutch failure 5375.
5-2 sudden downshift 84. = 84/681103 = 0.01%
The report further claims that the vehicle in not unstable with the sudden downshift because the speed change is small.
2 countermeasures applied to production line 4/2002 and 5/2002:
Improvement surface roughness 3rd gear clutch plate. Improvement of ECU data hydraulic pressure characteristic.
Same applied after-service 4/2002 and scheduled Dec. 2002.
From page 996: Factors causing 3rd clutch burning narrowed to surface roughness of clutch plate and high Q/A (J/cm2) while shifting, (Page 1001
especially at low temperature. (this appears to mean too high hydraulic pressure when 2-3 upshifting).(Cause is not overheating).
Clearest summary seems to be on page 1013. It is posted sideways and is hard to read. And seems to be the last major page of the report in English. Much follows in Japanese.
1)I am not an engineer.
2)Cause is not overheating of the trans as a whole. Local overheating seems a problem. Some features are worse at low temp. It is unclear whether trans coolers, flushing or changing fluid will help the problem.
3)Clutch dust clogs the hydraulics but there is no easily replacable filter in the Honda design. It is unclear whether flushing or changing fluid will help the problem.
4)One hopes that the parts in your transmission are made after April-May2002.
5)One hopes that if the trans is to go bad, it will do so within the warranty.
6)One hopes that these findings really fix the problem.
Thanks for your patience.
06-16-2003, 01:50 PM
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Re: Additional information from Ken347
Originally posted by EricL
THIS WAS POSTED BY KEN347:
new info
I have been considering the purchase of a new TL (I have a '90 Integra, my wife has an '02 MDX), and I was quite concerned when I happened upon this newsgroup and read about the transmission problems detailed in many posts. In the hopes of ferreting out some more information, I called Scott Yon (the NHTSA investigator on the case) and I learned some interesting things:
1) The NHTSA closed the case on 3/5/03.
2) There were no compelling safety issues that required further action at this time. The initial conclusion is that a quality issue underlies the complaints, but that there was not enough evidence to push the investigation to the next phase.
3) 165 transmission-based complaints out of a population of 295,026 cars (0.06%) were recorded. Of these complaints, 69 involved a sudden downshift. While Mr. Yon acknowledges that this downshift can lead to a serious accident, there were no reported incidents where this outcome, in fact, occurred.
4) Most incidents of transmission failure were preceded by warning signs, but some were sudden and precipitous. He faulted Acura for not publicizing the problem vigorously enough?that is, warning drivers that if they experience the following warning signs, they should seek repair immediately.
5) Mr. Yon did remark that he would have no qualms about driving, or having his family drive, an Acura sedan.
6) Acura has done a lot of work trying to identify and then rectify the problem. They have found some putative causes for the transmission failure, but Mr. Yon was not willing to conclude that they have found all of the possible flaws.
7) The transmissions manufactured after June 2002 (after the VIN listed in the extended warrantee notification) allegedly incorporated fixes for the problems that Acura could identify.
8) No incidents of transmission failure involving transmissions manufactured after June 2002 were reported to the NHTSA. Mr. Yon feels its still too early to tell if the problem(s) is fixed yet. The average mileage on a failed transmission is approximately 18K miles, although some failed at < 5K miles.
Hope that this helps
Ken
__________________
Ken
THIS WAS POSTED BY KEN347:
new info
I have been considering the purchase of a new TL (I have a '90 Integra, my wife has an '02 MDX), and I was quite concerned when I happened upon this newsgroup and read about the transmission problems detailed in many posts. In the hopes of ferreting out some more information, I called Scott Yon (the NHTSA investigator on the case) and I learned some interesting things:
1) The NHTSA closed the case on 3/5/03.
2) There were no compelling safety issues that required further action at this time. The initial conclusion is that a quality issue underlies the complaints, but that there was not enough evidence to push the investigation to the next phase.
3) 165 transmission-based complaints out of a population of 295,026 cars (0.06%) were recorded. Of these complaints, 69 involved a sudden downshift. While Mr. Yon acknowledges that this downshift can lead to a serious accident, there were no reported incidents where this outcome, in fact, occurred.
4) Most incidents of transmission failure were preceded by warning signs, but some were sudden and precipitous. He faulted Acura for not publicizing the problem vigorously enough?that is, warning drivers that if they experience the following warning signs, they should seek repair immediately.
5) Mr. Yon did remark that he would have no qualms about driving, or having his family drive, an Acura sedan.
6) Acura has done a lot of work trying to identify and then rectify the problem. They have found some putative causes for the transmission failure, but Mr. Yon was not willing to conclude that they have found all of the possible flaws.
7) The transmissions manufactured after June 2002 (after the VIN listed in the extended warrantee notification) allegedly incorporated fixes for the problems that Acura could identify.
8) No incidents of transmission failure involving transmissions manufactured after June 2002 were reported to the NHTSA. Mr. Yon feels its still too early to tell if the problem(s) is fixed yet. The average mileage on a failed transmission is approximately 18K miles, although some failed at < 5K miles.
Hope that this helps
Ken
__________________
Ken
More people need to complain so that NHTSA will know! If they take it to the next phase, there could be a possible recall issued. Of course it'll be up to Honda to find out which build dates are most affected but hopefully they have enough broken trannies to document the trend.
So COMPLAIN LOUDLY AND ADD YOUR NUMBER TO THE 165 that already complained. Please!!!
10-15-2003, 04:20 PM
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My tranny went bad today
I have 01 CL-Type S, 26000 miles.
Today on the highway car downshifted to 2 or 1 at 70 mph.
Quite an experience. Then I decided to shift to manual, but sudden downshifts continued. Anyway by the time I get home
clutch was slipping and stayed on 2 gear.
Tomorrow dealer is going to pick it up.
Shame on Acura, I think this is my last Honda vehicle.
I am so pst off on Acura because this failure is so damn
dangerous. I was lucky no one was at my rear bumper!
Anyway I will keep you guys posted.
Car was a good daily driver, quiet, comfortable and quick. I wanted to keep it as a second to my 04 M3, but after this failure I probably will sell it and find something else.
It is in showroom condition.
Today on the highway car downshifted to 2 or 1 at 70 mph.
Quite an experience. Then I decided to shift to manual, but sudden downshifts continued. Anyway by the time I get home
clutch was slipping and stayed on 2 gear.
Tomorrow dealer is going to pick it up.
Shame on Acura, I think this is my last Honda vehicle.
I am so pst off on Acura because this failure is so damn
dangerous. I was lucky no one was at my rear bumper!
Anyway I will keep you guys posted.
Car was a good daily driver, quiet, comfortable and quick. I wanted to keep it as a second to my 04 M3, but after this failure I probably will sell it and find something else.
It is in showroom condition.
11-17-2003, 04:42 AM
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The End Is NEAR
My fourth T5 is being installed in the next day or two. Previous installed at 87K. Presently have 141K on the vehicle. I have been made to feel that the T5 failure could be my fault because my service records are not with this dealer ( who have replaced all of my t5's ). Shouldn't the warranty cover the T5 ? do I have any legal recourse as they are making me pay for labor and Acura ain't cheap. Anyone took this to court yet ?
01-01-2004, 05:57 PM
#17
Re: Re: Additional information from Ken347
Originally posted by showgunz
This is ridiculous. Only 165 owners complained to NHTSA? When you guys need your tranny replaced, please complain to NHTSA. When Honda stated that about 1.6~2.0% of vehicle owners are experiencing transmission problems, it shows that 1.2%~1.4% of the people are not complaining. But I think the figure is a lot higher than 2.0%. It's probably more like 4 to 5% with dealers replacing a tranny or two a day from what I gather.
More people need to complain so that NHTSA will know! If they take it to the next phase, there could be a possible recall issued. Of course it'll be up to Honda to find out which build dates are most affected but hopefully they have enough broken trannies to document the trend.
So COMPLAIN LOUDLY AND ADD YOUR NUMBER TO THE 165 that already complained. Please!!!
This is ridiculous. Only 165 owners complained to NHTSA? When you guys need your tranny replaced, please complain to NHTSA. When Honda stated that about 1.6~2.0% of vehicle owners are experiencing transmission problems, it shows that 1.2%~1.4% of the people are not complaining. But I think the figure is a lot higher than 2.0%. It's probably more like 4 to 5% with dealers replacing a tranny or two a day from what I gather.
More people need to complain so that NHTSA will know! If they take it to the next phase, there could be a possible recall issued. Of course it'll be up to Honda to find out which build dates are most affected but hopefully they have enough broken trannies to document the trend.
So COMPLAIN LOUDLY AND ADD YOUR NUMBER TO THE 165 that already complained. Please!!!
What are they going to replace our transmissions with? Rebuilds? We all know the rebuilds are failing, too. Recall won't do anything, except cost Acura money, which they will factor into the prices of their cars. NHTSA and Acura know this.
If it was a simple defect like a weak radiator hose, they can manufacture a stronger one right away and do a recall. But a new transmission for what, over 2 million cars? Acura would be filing bankruptcy. (Strangely enough, that really wouldn't make me feel bad.)
Mine slipped for the first time a few weeks ago. Hasn't done it again... YET. But I'm watching it very closely.
01-02-2004, 01:47 AM
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Re: Re: Re: Additional information from Ken347
Originally posted by Pure Adrenaline
A recall for what? To do what?
What are they going to replace our transmissions with? Rebuilds? We all know the rebuilds are failing, too. Recall won't do anything, except cost Acura money, which they will factor into the prices of their cars. NHTSA and Acura know this.
If it was a simple defect like a weak radiator hose, they can manufacture a stronger one right away and do a recall. But a new transmission for what, over 2 million cars? Acura would be filing bankruptcy. (Strangely enough, that really wouldn't make me feel bad.)
Mine slipped for the first time a few weeks ago. Hasn't done it again... YET. But I'm watching it very closely.
A recall for what? To do what?
What are they going to replace our transmissions with? Rebuilds? We all know the rebuilds are failing, too. Recall won't do anything, except cost Acura money, which they will factor into the prices of their cars. NHTSA and Acura know this.
If it was a simple defect like a weak radiator hose, they can manufacture a stronger one right away and do a recall. But a new transmission for what, over 2 million cars? Acura would be filing bankruptcy. (Strangely enough, that really wouldn't make me feel bad.)
Mine slipped for the first time a few weeks ago. Hasn't done it again... YET. But I'm watching it very closely.
02-15-2004, 12:14 AM
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I am brand new to this forum and suspect I am about to get majorly flogged for what I am about to say. I have been looking at cars for about a month. I really want to buy, but I am one of those freaky people who research obsesively about everything. Anyway, I have been looking at: Audi 1.8 and 2.8 2001-2003, Acura CL, Acura TSX, Suby WRX, and Honda Accord. The tranny problems you all have mentioned give me pause; at first it seems like something I should avoid. Then again, every forum out there is rife with customers having crazy problems with their vehicles. Most forums, it seems, are loaded with people who have had really bad experiences with their cars. It makes some kind of sense because people who are happy with their purchases generally don't end up posting on forums. But still, what is the buyer looking for a quality used car under 30,000 miles and three years to do?
I spent the day salivating over an A4 2.8 quattro with 18,000 miles on it, then I came home and read tons and tons of negative posts on those vehicles--the electrical system dies, the windshields crack, the car spends 50% of the time in the shop--and I think, I can't buy that car. So I start thinking about Acura...known to be one of the most reliable brands on the market (with hard data to back that up). I can't afford a new TSX, so I start looking at older models (finding that 3 year sweet spot where depreciation and value meet) , and I think about the CL...say 2001-2. I found a few sweet deals. And now I see people talking serious trash (with good reason, I might add) about the trannys on Acuras, and I think to myself: How can I ever find a car that I can feel good and comfortable about?
If it is any consolation to those who have had serious problems with their trannys....at least Acura is fixing them in a relatively timely manner. A lot of the Audi posters who are trashing their cars complain about dealers who will neither fix or acknowledge their problems. I know this doesn't offset the fear of downshifting to 2nd while doing 80 on the highway, but at least Acura is making good on their commitment to quality. Am I off base here?
Please...Help me find a good, reliable car with the features and amenities I want. Is it out there? Is the CL a good buy despite the tranny problems you all are experiencing?
I spent the day salivating over an A4 2.8 quattro with 18,000 miles on it, then I came home and read tons and tons of negative posts on those vehicles--the electrical system dies, the windshields crack, the car spends 50% of the time in the shop--and I think, I can't buy that car. So I start thinking about Acura...known to be one of the most reliable brands on the market (with hard data to back that up). I can't afford a new TSX, so I start looking at older models (finding that 3 year sweet spot where depreciation and value meet) , and I think about the CL...say 2001-2. I found a few sweet deals. And now I see people talking serious trash (with good reason, I might add) about the trannys on Acuras, and I think to myself: How can I ever find a car that I can feel good and comfortable about?
If it is any consolation to those who have had serious problems with their trannys....at least Acura is fixing them in a relatively timely manner. A lot of the Audi posters who are trashing their cars complain about dealers who will neither fix or acknowledge their problems. I know this doesn't offset the fear of downshifting to 2nd while doing 80 on the highway, but at least Acura is making good on their commitment to quality. Am I off base here?
Please...Help me find a good, reliable car with the features and amenities I want. Is it out there? Is the CL a good buy despite the tranny problems you all are experiencing?
02-15-2004, 12:24 AM
#20
I as a former owner of a 2002 CL-S with failed trannieS (yes the capital S is purposely done) .. can easily dismiss your statement that Acura is 'making good on their commitment to quality' . .this is total crap .. getting them to admit to their failed design was harder than pulling teeth out of an aligator .. they blamed everything and anything on me. Then the LA Times article hit .. (with a guy that went through similar crap as I accept his actually failed) .. and their tone change a little bit. But even today, the whole tranny issue is very touchy with them .. and some dealers are in total denial .. others are more willing to 'slide things through' .. But one thing that has come out of all of this .. Acura customer service is all lip-service .. it's all crap .. their 800 number isn't worth the brick/mortar holding the building together ...
Whether you choose to buy the vehicle is up to you .. but don't give them too much praise .. because none is deserved ...
I figure you should find tons of buy-backs at a pretty good deal .. because Acura has been busy fighting their customers ...
Whether you choose to buy the vehicle is up to you .. but don't give them too much praise .. because none is deserved ...
I figure you should find tons of buy-backs at a pretty good deal .. because Acura has been busy fighting their customers ...
02-16-2004, 11:41 AM
#21
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Is this problem specific to Type-S?
Does anyone know if the transmission problem is particular to year, style (e.g. Type S, or reg) or type (e.g. manual or auto). Is there any recent model year/style/type combination that doesn't have these problems?
Thanks
Thanks
02-20-2004, 12:32 AM
#22
For the 2nd Gen CL/TL .. only the 6 speed manual CL (which was only made in 2003) is not subject .. all of the autos are subject to the failure (even those Acura claims were 'fixed' at the time the car was built - which was the last half of 2003 model year).
The Type-S and Premium are both failing
The Type-S and Premium are both failing
03-21-2004, 01:14 AM
#23
Suzuka Master
Thread Starter
Originally posted by DivinDude
For the 2nd Gen CL/TL .. only the 6 speed manual CL (which was only made in 2003) is not subject .. all of the autos are subject to the failure (even those Acura claims were 'fixed' at the time the car was built - which was the last half of 2003 model year).
The Type-S and Premium are both failing
For the 2nd Gen CL/TL .. only the 6 speed manual CL (which was only made in 2003) is not subject .. all of the autos are subject to the failure (even those Acura claims were 'fixed' at the time the car was built - which was the last half of 2003 model year).
The Type-S and Premium are both failing
I'd like to see your evidence regarding failures for the trannies that were made in the last half of 2003. I know that a few failed, but to "lump" them all in the same basket might be a mistake.
There will always be an issue related to "abuse" vs. "lemon"/Monday build vs. Murphy's Law vs. more of the same bad stuff.
If you don't mind, could you please send me the facts -- this would be very helpful as people come along and ask this information, and without knowing where the information is coming from and how it has been derived, it makes it difficult to asses the level and nature of the problem. (Since Acura doesn't supply new trannies to suffering slushbox owners, it just makes it that much more difficult to know what is going on. And, a few members were lucky enough to get an '03 tranny -- in lieu of the crud rebuilds they had gotten that quickly failed -- and they have not reported back (at least to my knowledge).
06-22-2004, 11:22 PM
#24
ENGAGE MY VTEC BABY!!!!!!
see i want in on this too cause im pissed
Acura covers the 98 and 99 CL for the 3.0 fully up to 100k 0r 150k
and im a 97 but im not covered under the warrenty
would i be a good canidate for this cause i think they are just trying ot get around it and i think a lot of first gens have problems too and i have had them too and i dont have hardly any mods
hit me up on aol im cause i have some questions about this and i think i can represent the first gens for sure and i will do my homework to get this taken care of
also you can email me @ jgiguere17@yahoo.com
thanks
-joe
Acura covers the 98 and 99 CL for the 3.0 fully up to 100k 0r 150k
and im a 97 but im not covered under the warrenty
would i be a good canidate for this cause i think they are just trying ot get around it and i think a lot of first gens have problems too and i have had them too and i dont have hardly any mods
hit me up on aol im cause i have some questions about this and i think i can represent the first gens for sure and i will do my homework to get this taken care of
also you can email me @ jgiguere17@yahoo.com
thanks
-joe
06-23-2004, 09:35 PM
#25
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24 posts in this thread since 3/11/03? Is the auto tranny problem fixed? Are these failures occuring with any frequency? I have read so much about transmission failures that I cant help but wonder how many ( what percentage) of Acura owners with automatics have really experienced premature failures. I have a 03 cl-s six speed, so my concerns are limited to others that have bought these cars, and preferred automatics. I have had only two transmission failures in the past with the cars that I have owned, both with automatics. The first was a ford (no surprise - at 93000 miles) and the second ( a chevy - 1980 chevette-at 132000 miles-not too bad for a cheap car) I am just trying to figure out if these transmission problems are isolated to a few unlucky owners, or a widespread problem. Either way. I understand why anybody who bought an Acura would be pissed, if their transmission did not last at least 100,000 miles. I am impressed with the quality of my car, and I am just trying to understand.
06-24-2004, 04:39 AM
#26
Suzuka Master
Thread Starter
Well, this is long... If you're going to build a slushbox, build it to last!
Originally Posted by SMR Type S
24 posts in this thread since 3/11/03? Is the auto tranny problem fixed? Are these failures occuring with any frequency? I have read so much about transmission failures that I cant help but wonder how many ( what percentage) of Acura owners with automatics have really experienced premature failures. I have a 03 cl-s six speed, so my concerns are limited to others that have bought these cars, and preferred automatics. I have had only two transmission failures in the past with the cars that I have owned, both with automatics. The first was a ford (no surprise - at 93000 miles) and the second ( a chevy - 1980 chevette-at 132000 miles-not too bad for a cheap car) I am just trying to figure out if these transmission problems are isolated to a few unlucky owners, or a widespread problem. Either way. I understand why anybody who bought an Acura would be pissed, if their transmission did not last at least 100,000 miles. I am impressed with the quality of my car, and I am just trying to understand.
I don't think the tranny problem is fixed. There are still people getting two or more of the new boxes.
What's a few? And, what's unlucky? Sorry, I've given up on knowing for sure. Some people get the latest boxes are seem ok for a while, others don't.
Acura knows for sure, but they aren't saying.
IMO, the current slushbox designs are going to go away. Whenever technology allows manufacturer's to produce a design that produces benefits, with lower costs, less worry, better aggregate MPG figures, etc, they will eventually move to them. The Acura CLx boxes -- and a lot of other torque-converter equipped, manu-matic boxes controlled by electronics and hydraulics, are generally quite complicated. Complexity is generally not a good thing for reliability, and there are so many complicated parts in their slushbox, that Acura doesn't even trust let its dealers work on the boxes. Toss in some poor quality control and marginal design; add undersized clutch packs that “live” inside of all of the gears; consider the multitude of clutch packs residing inside of the gears; and, finally, understand that they can only be replaced by taking the whole transmission apart. If you really wanted to build a bulletproof transmission, you would want overbuilt clutch packs and the highest standards of quality control, so you didn’t have to take the entire transmission apart to get to parts that are not long lived.
If you wear out your clutch in your 6-speed, you only have to replace the one clutch. When you wear one of the clutch disks (and there are a lot of them inside every gear) you get to operate on the whole transmission. So, since this isn't the aviation industry, where you need to do tear-downs and/or inspections on a regular basis, you are going to have failures. If you know that something is going to be difficult or expensive to get to, you generally overbuild it so you don’t need to waste time getting to parts that will not stand up.
Acura has claimed that there have been quality control issues that allowed defective materials and assembly clearances to cause premature failures. The problem is: you can't know if you have a bad box or not -- at least not for sure -- by just looking up some number or by doing some simple procedure. An analogy: if you're going to build a space shuttle and you know the thing is rather complex and needs constant maintenance, then make the bloody thing maintainable and make sure it gets inspected and maintained properly. The Acura transmission fails miserably when they fail *and* Acura doesn't inspect or have any system to identify "faulty" boxes (I'm not saying they could; I'm just saying they don't). Making some poor owner take their car back for multiple replacements is something that can sure make an enemy of someone who isn't practicing for sainthood.
So:
1. IMO, electronic Tiptronic-type gearboxes with torque converters are complicated and WILL wear out. It is simply a matter of when. The weakest parts that wear under day-to-day use can only be replaced in current versions by replacing the whole transmission. If the transmission isn't completely overbuilt, it is going to fail sooner than later. Your boxes eventually failed. I content that current designs will fail at some point. I believe that Acura never intended for the transmission to last the 100K+ miles. I believe that a trade-off was made. They could have “overbuilt” the transmission. However, they didn’t. I wonder how many people would have been “sold” on the car if the car’s sales person had said, “Hey, Acura has a brochure on how they overbuild their transmissions.” My guess is most people would toss it out and ask how fast it does 0..60. The exceptions would be: previous or current Acura owners that had their car in the shop for months waiting for their Nth transmission..
2. It's hard to gauge the frequency of failure when Acura doesn't need to publish this data. They did produce stats for the NHTSA investigation, but that has ended -- at least for the CL/CLS/TL/TLS. The failures were basically a result of lousy quality control. The numbers were higher for certain build months.
3. I like the quality of my car too. But, I haven't had the transmission fail on me (knock on wood again). Some people are lucky and others are not.
4. I would NOT drive the car too hard and expect to get it to go 100K miles. There may be some people that have managed this, but I would think they are in the minority.
5. If you are lucky, and an automatic was built on a "good day," there's a good chance that it will work for a pretty long time if it isn't abused. There are people here that have gone 100K miles without a replacement.
I know I've drifted all over the place about the trannies, but I have to shake my head when I see how complicated the transmission pages are in the service manual. If anyone were to fully understand how complicated the system is, they wouldn't be too surprised to know that they were failing. IMO, quality control and engineering practices are not at the level of the other parts of the car. For example, the engine is an elegant design, and seems to be overbuilt. IMO, the CL/CLS transmissions would fall apart in no time under the strain of a V8 (even with a top-grade specimen). I'd hate to think of a V8 driving one of the units with bad clutch material, bad bearings, and faulty ATF clearances that prevent ATF from flowing into the critical clutch packs.
I'm going to consider getting a DSG or other type of automatic in the future. I'd like the clutch (or dual clutch) to be accessible and to be overbuilt. I'd like to see a unit with NO torque converter and no ATF pump. I'd really like to see the end of Rube Goldberg designs. It's time for a change; time to move on to better designs. If you are going to get a conventional slush box, get one that is OVERBUILT.
08-20-2004, 10:09 PM
#27
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My O1-S has 34,134 mi and has never experienced any tranny problems. Now, I know lots of people on this board have had tons of trouble with 1st and even their replacement transmissions, and there must really be a problem for Acura to have the recall. So I am nervous to take my car in for what might only be a oil line install, and then start having problems with it. 
Wish they could just put in the 5 speed for a little extra cash, then I'd be all over it. 
Wish they could just put in the 5 speed for a little extra cash, then I'd be all over it.
09-08-2006, 11:00 AM
#28
I have had my car a week and yesterday it thumped on a downshift. My car has 41K on it
08-27-2011, 10:27 PM
#29
HEY !
im a new 1997 acura 2.2 cl automatic owner and i am very very concerned about the tranney problems. i am cr
ssing my fingers and hoping mine isnt the faulty one ! really like this car and so far no tranny problems ! car has 170xxx miles .......since i have a f22b1 i hope the tranny is good cause i never heard serious tranny problems with the accord with same engine & automatic transmission GREATLY APPRECIATE - THANKS AND I SEND A HELLO FROM PRELUDEPOWER.COM AS A PREVIOUS PRELUDE OWNER !
im a new 1997 acura 2.2 cl automatic owner and i am very very concerned about the tranney problems. i am crssing my fingers and hoping mine isnt the faulty one ! really like this car and so far no tranny problems ! car has 170xxx miles .......since i have a f22b1 i hope the tranny is good cause i never heard serious tranny problems with the accord with same engine & automatic transmission GREATLY APPRECIATE - THANKS AND I SEND A HELLO FROM PRELUDEPOWER.COM AS A PREVIOUS PRELUDE OWNER !
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