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One of my colleagues dad is a director at Acura dealership (Canada). I asked her to confirm with her dad how is the new TLX and how people perceive it. Her dad told her that people are very interested in the new TLX -A-Spec and lots of test drives and etc. But the issue is price. It's very high.
It's only high if you pay MSRP, which I didn't. I don't think any A-Spec owners have paid MSRP for the car. It's also high if you want a 2017, on which there are screaming deals right now.
Not sure about price being too high. If you compare to Lexus or Infinity, I think Acura prices are better.
Comparing Acura to Lexus is like comparing Chevy to Cadillac. Cheaper, but not necessarily a better value. Right now, Acura sedans are dirt cheap, and they still can't sell them.
Not sure about price being too high. If you compare to Lexus or Infinity, I think Acura prices are better. 2017 Lexus IS 350 FSport had a MSRP of 50k, 2018 Acura TLX ASpec AWD MSRP is 45,700. I chose the 2018 Acura TLX ASpec awd.
I seen a Nissan maxima for 42,460 MSRP.
Don't get me wrong, 45,700 MSRP is high for a car, but the MSRP is negotiable.
I think the issue is the are expensive for a car that isn't that good looking. If they were selling for $30,000 I'm sure people would say what a great value they are but it wouldn't make people think they look good. They aren't as hideous as they once were but that really isn't saying much. Basically the TLX is in the blind date world known as great personality.
Unfortunately for Acura, I had a feeling. No discounts and low supply on bestseller can never be a good thing. Especially with the current aggressive market. If Acura thinks they can survive with the TLX as is until 2020 ... well management must be fired by the shareholders.
I suspect the discounts will be there later in the year. The have to be disappointed in those numbers but then again we don't know how sedans fared across the industry.
This is the first month this year that Acura surpassed Infiniti's total sale by 200+ units. In general, Acura is way ahead of Infiniti for their global NA sales. Acura is making some good decisions but need more incentives and updates in their vehicles.
Acura is making some good decisions but need more incentives and updates in their vehicles.
I agree. If Acura can add one feature per year until FMC, the TLX will continue to sale decently and be somewhat relevant.
For example, by model year:
2019 - 10sp transmission, more self driving aids, better brakes on Aspec
2020 - HUD, partial digital gauge cluster
2021 - FMC with new engine and infotainment system
If they can tweak things without having to do major work, it'll sale. Releasing the same car with just new colors quickly dies the market excitement. That's why they had to heavily discount 16-17 TLXs, pretty much no changes.
With the positive reviews on Youtube and print along with generally enthusiastic comments on Acurazine from those who have purchased/leased the car, this level of sales is a big disappointment to Acura .The market is not favorable to this car segment right now, however to trail August 2016 sales by this margin with the updated model is not good.
Those TLX numbers make sense. I have cash on hand to buy....and yet my local dealer still doesn't have any SHAWD.
Im still hoping for incentives and deals to come soon. My current TL still drives excellent so I'm not rushing.
These sale numbers will help any buyer in the negotiation process.
I blame the Pilot for that, almost a copy paste but cheaper.
You know, someone asked me the other day if they should buy a pilot or MDX, and I couldn't help but suggest the Pilot. The biggest difference in the MDX is the SH-AWD that the Pilot doesn't have, but really, who cares? I've driven through 16 winters with front wheel drive cars, through some of the shittiest winters and never had issues, as long as I had good winter tires. While there is no denying the SH-AWD system is fantastic, the amount of times you would actually need it are incredibly slim. I view AWD these days as more and more just a marketing gimmick. Very few people actually need them and most people really don't know how they work, or the difference between the systems on different cars. They really think they're all the same.
I wont deny that SH-AWD is a great product, because I truly think it is. But, most of us normal folk like to conserve our hard earned dollars and paying the premium to jump to an MDX from the Pilot isn't always justified for a lot of people.
Maybe it's just coincidence, but I do find it interesting how ILX sales increased vs year ago numbers once the MMC TLX was released. Just looking at the numbers, I cannot help but conclude that perhaps the new huge pentagon grille on the TLX is turning people off since the ILX hasn't received the same grille treatment yet.
For almost a year, ILX sales had been consistently down 40%-50% vs prior year months until the MMC TLX went on sale on June 1, 2017, then all of a sudden ILX sales for the month of June turned positive (+6.9%). It's almost as if people who were interested in the MMC TLX 2.4 went in to the dealership, saw it, were turned off by the new huge grille, and bought the ILX instead.
The same sales trend for the ILX happened in July (+10.1%) and August (+17.7%) as well. Meanwhile, during those same months, TLX sales fell more and more vs the same period in the prior year.
I wonder if the unusual big TLX sales jump in April 2017 (+39.1%) wasn't from people who were waiting to see what the MMC TLX would look like (MMC was revealed on April 11, 2017), saw it, and went to buy the pre-MMC TLX en mass before they were all gone.
I don't think it may be a turn off from the 2018's as much as the current incentives for ILX. They're upwards of $5000 right now, which is a big percentage off the lower cost ILX. Started with $3500 off in June to $5000 off now for leases.
I don't think it may be a turn off from the 2018's as much as the current incentives for ILX. They're upwards of $5000 right now, which is a big percentage off the lower cost ILX. Started with $3500 off in June to $5000 off now for leases.
I would tend to agree that it has more to do with the price and lack of incentives on the TLX. I'm waiting to buy one once my dealer is willing to work with me and negotiate. IMO the TLX is overpriced by a couple thousand. Once they get to that point sales will take off.
We are just blaming TLX, guys Q50/Q60 offer more options, HP, features and etc but still struggling big time. If i am not mistaken the numbers are +/- the same as TLX. The sedan market is dying and everyone is running toward SUV and Crossovers....
Acura needs to release the new RDX asap and bring the CDX. I am sure the numbers will be good. The RDX will be bigger than its current model based on spied pics that I have seen!
Or they could make with the design styling of the A4 which is a SEDAN that is increasing sales from last year to this year - probably taking some Acura sedan buyers Audi A4 / S4 US car sales figures or the Accord which has seen no significant loss and is about to release a new generation. We could blame it on sedan sales or Incan Monkey Gods but I think the decreased sales might have something to do with the fact that the car is not exciting. Its a pretty well built blah car that isn't terribly over priced. It isn't a bad car, just an uninspired car IMHO. I can show you some pretty crappy cars from the 60s that have lines that still can excite.
Acura needs to release the new RDX asap and bring the CDX. I am sure the numbers will be good. The RDX will be bigger than its current model based on spied pics that I have seen!
Still won't fix the problem with it's sedans which are becoming less competitive as the months go by. Can't complain about sedan sales decreasing now, means more discounts for me.
I think at one point crossover sales will stabilize. Reminds me of the tablet vs PC phase.
Or they could make with the design styling of the A4 which is a SEDAN that is increasing sales from last year to this year - probably taking some Acura sedan buyers Audi A4 / S4 US car sales figures or the Accord which has seen no significant loss and is about to release a new generation. We could blame it on sedan sales or Incan Monkey Gods but I think the decreased sales might have something to do with the fact that the car is not exciting. Its a pretty well built blah car that isn't terribly over priced. It isn't a bad car, just an uninspired car IMHO. I can show you some pretty crappy cars from the 60s that have lines that still can excite.
A4 dropped last month and is up against big numbers this Fall. Their utilities are doing well and the A5 is all new. Basically their entire line has had a refresh over the past year or so. The technology in their cars is just so much better. https://media.audiusa.com/en-us/releases/180
I agree, I think the A5 is a nice car too. There is something about the Audi that gives you a sense of pride and excitement. The Acuras have had some good quality for the most part other than some transmission issues (which I admit is a significant concern) but they just don't have anything that would make someone say to you - that is a nice car. Again, I think Acura can make good cars, I just wish they fired the person designing them, keep the engineers and come out with something new and soon. They probably should fire the people at the top who DIDN'T fire the person designing them. It took them a decade to lose the beak which got gag reflexes from most people before it even made it to production. How long will it take to lose the Flavor Flav bling emblem? I mean why half ass it - why not put in a pimp cup holder on the dash?
Don't think the sedan market is dead with a stake through its heart. They still move a lot of cars. The 3 series is down about 500 units from last year but up 1300 units from July at 5375. Throw in the 4 series, who's biggest seller in the "GC" 5 door, its up 1200 over last year & 600 over July at 3412. That's just short of 8800 units in the entry level Lux class.
Lexus entry level ES is up 600 over last year to 6404.
Couple comments on this class & the ability to move cars. Mercedes Benz, BMW & Audi have the luxury of being seen as luxury cars on a global scale. They will sell on that alone.
Of the Japanese cars only Lexus has come near that global acceptance of defining luxury. They have not been able to truly crack the Sport Sedan/Coupe market That's why I listed the ES as the place holder in the segment instead of the GS or IS.
Infiniti lost the Luxury war with Lexus in the first few years of production when Lexus was selling MB's knockoffs at bargain prices. On the performance side the G35/37 & Q50/60 have never been able to come out of the 3/4 series shadow. They were just a little short of muscle each time & did not have the nameplate recognition to pull them even in the marketplace.
Acura is where Infiniti is but without a performance car. They do have nameplate recognition but not the kind that will let them get traction in the market they want. They get reliability points (may have been squandered with the TLX not ready for prime time launch) & a constant stream of Honda loyalists that want to move up from their Accords & Civic's.
Initially priced under the European cars with a competitive product they were able to get conquest sales through the 3G series. That all fell apart when they decided to go head to head with them with the 4G & got killed with a bad design @ too high a price.
The next generation will need to be a start over for the brand but they need to come to grips as to where they are in the market, build a product & pricing strategy based on reality not hope.
Hope is not a Strategy.
Last edited by BEAR-AvHistory; 09-04-2017 at 12:50 PM.
Don't think the sedan market is dead with a stake through its heart. They still move a lot of cars. The 3 series is down about 500 units from last year but up 1300 units from July at 5375. Throw in the 4 series, who's biggest seller in the "GC" 5 door, its up 1200 over last year & 600 over July at 3412. That's just short of 8800 units in the entry level Lux class.
Lexus entry level ES is up 600 over last year to 6404.
Couple comments on this class & the ability to move cars. Mercedes Benz, BMW & Audi have the luxury of being seen as luxury cars on a global scale. They will sell on that alone.
Of the Japanese cars only Lexus has come near that global acceptance of defining luxury. They have not been able to truly crack the Sport Sedan/Coupe market That's why I listed the ES as the place holder in the segment instead of the GS or IS.
Infiniti lost the Luxury war with Lexus in the first few years of production when Lexus was selling MB's knockoffs at bargain prices. On the performance side the G35/37 & Q50/60 have never been able to come out of the 3/4 series shadow. They were just a little short of muscle each time & did not have the nameplate recognition to pull them even in the marketplace.
Acura is where Infiniti is but without a performance car. They do have nameplate recognition but not the kind that will let them get traction in the market they want. They get reliability points (may have been squandered with the TLX not ready for prime time launch) & a constant stream of Honda loyalists that want to move up from their Accords & Civic's.
Initially priced under the European cars with a competitive product they were able to get conquest sales through the 3G series. That all fell apart when they decided to go head to head with them with the 4G & got killed with a bad design @ too high a price.
The next generation will need to be a start over for the brand but they need to come to grips as to where they are in the market, build a product & pricing strategy based on reality not hope.
Hope is not a Strategy.
I overall agree with few differences
Infiniti was very close to crack the sport sedan market with the G and was starting to build "street creed" with the second generation G but all fell apart with the Q50...asinine model name change to begin with...the car is a nice, a competent comfortable sporty cruiser now with seriously powerful engines, advanced tech and well finished but is not as edgy as the old G was. Other then the Q50 and the Q60 the rest of the model range needs to be literally discarded, simply too old.
You may have not liked the 4G and it is all good but pricing was not a problem.....if you compare MSRP between 3G (in its last year, 2008) and 4G there was not that much difference. A base 2008 TL stickered for $33.725, a base 2009 TL $34,955...did you expected a bigger, more powerful and better finished car at the same price?? A 2008 TL Type S started at 38.225, a 2009 TL SH-AWD $38.505....you got a bigger and more powerful engine and a Torque Vectoring AWD for less than $300 difference. Sounds like a very good deal to me.
I think at the time the 4G TL with the big engine SHAWD & some higher level trim crossed the $40K price line @ $42,385. Eight years ago that was the same as a TLX crossing the $50K line now. A price which makes people look a some other brands more closely. Based on a lot of the posts Audi looks to be doing well with 3/4G owners. I went BMW.
Back prior to the Type S the 2006 when the TL was competitive performance/features with BMW, Audi, Infiniti & MB @ $32/33K. My 2006 TL 6MT was about $14000 less than my 2004 BMW 330Ci 6MT ZHP Convertible. They had roughly the same acceleration curve but the ZHP was way better at handling even carrying the convertible weight penalty. In a traffic light Grand Prix it was a drivers race.
Additionally even the Type-S was a low seller on price. I remember some of the few people who actually bought the S (even though you were now forced to if you wanted a 6MT) claimed those of us with a TL just could not afford the Type-S price increase.
I really believe that Acura has a built in market driven price ceiling that they need to be very careful not to exceed. Its real hard to come up with a logical reason outside of look & price for a model go from a model introduction of 70,000 cars a year to for the 3G to 34,000 cars a year for 4G.
Even today with the TLX its best year was 47,000 in 2015 which then fell to 37,000 in 2016. If they can maintain 3,000 units a month they will make 36,000 units this year. This is with a very nice looking well equipped competent car.
Yes the sedan market is shrinking but why isn't the TLX with a nice car out performing the market in general? The look is good, the power fits the general use category, the MPG is good, Its has all the nice safety tech, the tires are a bit sucky but the average buyer will not notice that so what is left to look at?
Image vs Price?
Last edited by BEAR-AvHistory; 09-05-2017 at 12:34 PM.
To be fair, the 3 series E Class and ES are like the Accord and Camry in the mid-size sedan market. The very good Fusion, Malibu, altima, and Mazda 6 aren't even close. The default sedans for the mid-size market are the Accord and Camry, much like the default compact luxury sports sedans are the 3 series and C Class.
To be fair, the 3 series E Class and ES are like the Accord and Camry in the mid-size sedan market. The very good Fusion, Malibu, altima, and Mazda 6 aren't even close. The default sedans for the mid-size market are the Accord and Camry, much like the default compact luxury sports sedans are the 3 series and C Class.
The Altima has significantly closed the gap in sales vs the Accord during the past few years. And while sales of the Fusion, Malibu, Sonata, Optima, etc. aren't as close to the Accord or Camry, their sales numbers have at least been in an upward trajectory. This is especially evident with the Sonata and Optima. I'd say it's because they all stepped up their game (advanced?) and started offering a better and more attractive/competitive product.
On the other hand, Acura TL(X) sales have continued to fall year after year when compared to the 3G TL. Sales of the 3-series are about flat to up a tiny bit; C-class sales are up; and ES sales are about flat to slightly down.
Why is that? I'd say it's because Acura stopped advancing. They had a much more compelling product in the 3G TL vs their competition at the time. That's why sales were so strong.
I think at the time the 4G TL with the big engine SHAWD & some higher level trim crossed the $40K price line @ $42,385. Eight years ago that was the same as a TLX crossing the $50K line now. A price which makes people look a some other brands more closely. Based on a lot of the posts Audi looks to be doing well with 3/4G owners. I went BMW.
Back prior to the Type S the 2006 when the TL was competitive performance/features with BMW, Audi, Infiniti & MB @ $32/33K. My 2006 TL 6MT was about $14000 less than my 2004 BMW 330Ci 6MT ZHP Convertible. They had roughly the same acceleration curve but the ZHP was way better at handling even carrying the convertible weight penalty. In a traffic light Grand Prix it was a drivers race.
A 2010 fully loaded 4G TL SH-AWD was 11 grand less expensive than a base 535i xDrive....the size jump made the TL more of a budget 5 Series than a 3 Series fighter (that was probably also a mistake) and was actively marketed as such in Acura dealerships and the Acura magazine of that time. So the price advantage remained...
Its real hard to come up with a logical reason outside of look & price for a model go from a model introduction of 70,000 cars a year to for the 3G to 34,000 cars a year for 4G.
Polarizing look had something to do with it but the disastrous economy and the trend towards SUVs and Crossovers already under way were big factors too
Even today with the TLX its best year was 47,000 in 2015 which then fell to 37,000 in 2016. If they can maintain 3,000 units a month they will make 36,000 units this year. This is with a very nice looking well equipped competent car.
Yes the sedan market is shrinking but why isn't the TLX with a nice car out performing the market in general? The look is good, the power fits the general use category, the MPG is good, Its has all the nice safety tech, the tires are a bit sucky but the average buyer will not notice that so what is left to look at?
Image vs Price?
Why?? Because the mainstream sedan market nowadays pretty much offer a similar experience at a lower price of entry. As someone said already, Acura stagnated. I suspect this year sales will be the worst (also because of a general slowdown in car sales), despite the refresh.
Some thoughts her. First the sales of the 3G will not likely be seen again. If you look at the market place in 2004 it was different. The 3G was an amazing offering at the time without too many real,competitors near that price point. Over the last 10+ years you have had the main stream sedan market get super competitive that pushed that market to,offer more at a great value. That put pressure on the TL class since you had main stream vehicles eating at the low end and Acura could not maintain its value near luxury if they moved the price into German territory. Then you had The Koreans change the dynamic and the Germans realizing they had started tomprice themselves out of range for where most car buyers were. If you look at the choices you have at any given price and segment compared to 10-15 years ago you would see the delemia the car makers face every day.
Who would have have thought the Accord Touring being released would offer all it is if it were not for the excessive competition.
A 2010 fully loaded 4G TL SH-AWD was 11 grand less expensive than a base 535i xDrive....the size jump made the TL more of a budget 5 Series than a 3 Series fighter (that was probably also a mistake) and was actively marketed as such in Acura dealerships and the Acura magazine of that time. So the price advantage remained.
The TL 4G competing with the 5 series was an Acura marketing department wet dream right alongside of the 4G taking Acura into the Tier ! class. In the TL's case size did not matter. There were any number of Ford, Chevy, Dodge, Camry etc cars that were as big or bigger than TL that could compete with the 5 series based on size.
There was nothing other than its bigger going for the TL & the public did not buy it, no pun intended. To add insult to injury IIRC the 5 series actually outsold the 4G in that time frame.
Acura marketing could have picked any European car of the time & said the same thing but that did not make it a true competitor. Just pick a name like Impala SS, TL or Camry say we are bigger or the same size so we are a legitimate competitor to the 5 series is wishful thinking. Thing is the people with the money to choose a car among the 5 series true competitors bought E class, upper level Audi's & Lexus.
Acura marketing has always been based on we are just as good but a lot less expensive. That makes a lot of people buying TL's feel good & it comes up a lot in debates here.
However in the industry most transactions are generally in the range the people can afford. Sure their are billionaires that drive old Honda's but that is not a market driving force. Go to any type of business parking lot & look at the cars. Its not hard to pick out the owners, managers cars from the regular employees cars.
As for the economy tanking all the automakers lived in the same world & had to adapt. Same with the Crossover & SUV upswing. Wonder if it was harder to sell a $45K car or a $60K car.
Last edited by BEAR-AvHistory; 09-05-2017 at 07:26 PM.
Some thoughts her. First the sales of the 3G will not likely be seen again. If you look at the market place in 2004 it was different. The 3G was an amazing offering at the time without too many real,competitors near that price point. Over the last 10+ years you have had the main stream sedan market get super competitive that pushed that market to,offer more at a great value. That put pressure on the TL class since you had main stream vehicles eating at the low end and Acura could not maintain its value near luxury if they moved the price into German territory. Then you had The Koreans change the dynamic and the Germans realizing they had started tomprice themselves out of range for where most car buyers were. If you look at the choices you have at any given price and segment compared to 10-15 years ago you would see the delemia the car makers face every day.
Who would have have thought the Accord Touring being released would offer all it is if it were not for the excessive competition.
There is a lot out there in the A-Spec range. Base model price is cheap enough. I came close to going with an S5 certified used. Same price as a discounted A-Spec for a car that was 20 k more new. However after reviewing the Audi forums the maintenance and depreciation only lent to leasing a new one which was more than I wanted to go. The AWD on the acura is the next best to Audi. For me though I buy rather than lease and really want my initial outlay to be the car and not high ownership costs going forward. I am sure the discounts will come but if you want lower ownership costs then you really are limited to Acura and Lexus and that Lexus grill is a tough one to like. Honda makes a good product but other than a civic which acura has no comparable I would not consider it. Same for a Camry, more Hp but still a camry.
Some thoughts her. First the sales of the 3G will not likely be seen again. If you look at the market place in 2004 it was different. The 3G was an amazing offering at the time without too many real,competitors near that price point. Over the last 10+ years you have had the main stream sedan market get super competitive that pushed that market to,offer more at a great value. That put pressure on the TL class since you had main stream vehicles eating at the low end and Acura could not maintain its value near luxury if they moved the price into German territory. Then you had The Koreans change the dynamic and the Germans realizing they had started tomprice themselves out of range for where most car buyers were. If you look at the choices you have at any given price and segment compared to 10-15 years ago you would see the delemia the car makers face every day.
Who would have have thought the Accord Touring being released would offer all it is if it were not for the excessive competition.
Just a quick thought. A quick look at the posted sales chart by make & year shows a number of current sales years volume equal to or better than the good old days of the early 2000's. This in the face of SUV, Crossover & less than great economic trends.
The auto industry has always been cyclical but it sold more than 17 million cars last year an all time record. Its not a zero sum game where 1 crossover sale kills 1 sedan sale.
Last edited by BEAR-AvHistory; 09-05-2017 at 07:41 PM.
The Altima has significantly closed the gap in sales vs the Accord during the past few years. And while sales of the Fusion, Malibu, Sonata, Optima, etc. aren't as close to the Accord or Camry, their sales numbers have at least been in an upward trajectory. This is especially evident with the Sonata and Optima. I'd say it's because they all stepped up their game (advanced?) and started offering a better and more attractive/competitive product.
On the other hand, Acura TL(X) sales have continued to fall year after year when compared to the 3G TL. Sales of the 3-series are about flat to up a tiny bit; C-class sales are up; and ES sales are about flat to slightly down.
Why is that? I'd say it's because Acura stopped advancing. They had a much more compelling product in the 3G TL vs their competition at the time. That's why sales were so strong.
This is what happens when you stagnate.
For sure, those other mid-size sedans are gaining, but there's still a sizable gap in general compared to the Camry. the gap is smaller to the Accord, but that's most likely because Honda doesn't do fleet sales, unlike the likes of Malibu, Fusion, Optima, Sonata, Altima, Camry, etc.
There's no doubt many cars in the mid-size segment are very competitive. But there's remain a sizeable gap between these excellent sedans vs the likes of the Accord, Camry, and Altima.
As for the TL and TLX, Acura did really well with the 3G TL. As KeithL pointed out, it came out at a time when the entry level luxury sedan segment was still not as competitive. Nowadays, almost every car in this segment is really well executed without significant flaws. The TL did well because it was such a well-rounded vehicle without any major flaw at a good price with a good design. But others eventually caught up.
For sure, those other mid-size sedans are gaining, but there's still a sizable gap in general compared to the Camry. the gap is smaller to the Accord, but that's most likely because Honda doesn't do fleet sales, unlike the likes of Malibu, Fusion, Optima, Sonata, Altima, Camry, etc..
Another way to look at the competitors vs Honda is all but one were in the game at the beginning of the chart. But the trends for some at interesting through 2016.
Honda went from 398K to 345K.
Altima went from 201K to 307K
Fusion went from 143K to 266K
Malibu went from 123K to 228K
Sonata went from 82K to 199K
Optima went from 34K to 124K
So going back to its not a zero sum game with sedans VS SUV/Crossovers the market has grown. Honda is shrinking & the Competitors are growing with the rise in the overall market.
The fact that Honda does not do fleet sales is a "what is". Some of the others do & they sell more cars than if they didn't. At the end of the day its all about how many cars you sell.
Its the same type of complaint/justification that was used with the TL. Well the other guts have coupes & convertibles so we should cut those numbers out. The fact that Acura had a product shortfall should not have been used as an excuse to poor sales.
Honda not doing fleet sales & Acura have a short product portfolio is the result of management decisions & you can' penalize the other guys for having more product when you count sales.
Last edited by BEAR-AvHistory; 09-06-2017 at 05:08 PM.
08-07-2017, 10:50 PM
