alxhastngs

Wanted to share my results in correcting a loud valve tick that started appearing on my 2012 SH-AWD 6MT. In searching for information on this I didn't have much luck and really only got some info from an Acura tech on the 4G Facebook group so I wanted to share here for future use.

Around 96,000 miles I started noticing a loud ticking noise coming from the valve train. Dismissed it as just a noisy valve and was planning on doing a valve adjustment at the 105K service when I replace the timing belt to see if it quieted down. It gradually got louder and louder until I took it into the dealership around 98,800 miles as it did not sound healthy and was getting comments from passengers on how loud/bad it sounded.

Noise sounded similar to this video (not my video). It increased with engine revs, not vehicle speed, and was a very distinct tick.

Took it into the dealer and they were aware of the problem and have fixed this on several J series motors within the past month, mostly on MDXs and RDXs.

The verdict was a worn cam lobe on the rear bank camshaft, cylinder 2. This was easily inspected by removing the valve covers as if beginning a valve adjustment. Lobe was worn as shown in pictures below, and rocker arm had slight galling on the bearing surface. Both camshaft and rocker arm were replaced along with the valve cover gaskets and other relevant gaskets. Front bank cam shaft was inspected to fine no issues, and valve lash adjustment was checked as well to find everything in spec.


This was covered under my extended power train warranty as I purchased the car as Certified Pre-Owned. Luckily i was just inside of the warranty period, it did not sound like they have had luck with extending the warranty/good will repair from Acura, however that would probably vary on a case by case basis.


Pictures:
https://i.imgur.com/Wnimh9K.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/7OnGhai.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/pGfXVht.png

losiglow

iTrader: (1)

That's bizarre. I've seen that before but I'm dumbfounded as to what causes it. It doesn't seem like a general wear issue since the other lobes are usually fine. I wonder if it's just a manufacturing defect where the surface of the lobe wears out resulting in exponential wear on the interior metal.

Either way, glad you got it diagnosed and fixed. Especially under warranty. I'm about due for a valve adjustment so I'll have to check out my cams for good measure.

lji

Chalk it up to bad engine design - J37 series are now phased out

Blaze9

I've got the 3.5 and mine makes a similar but MUCH softer version of this. was planning on doing a valve adjustment now (100k). What type of shop do you guys recommend, and an average cost for something like this? It runs fine, just makes that soft ticking noise.

thorpedo

Just for reference I had this same issue with my 2013 6MT, except both cams were bad. Dealer said it was a known manufacturing defect. Acura declined my request for good will assistance and the dealer(s) wouldn't go to bat for me. Very disappointing.

See videos in the linked thread for the sounds mine made:
https://acurazine.com/forums/4g-tl-p...-sound-968771/

losiglow

iTrader: (1)

It's not unusual to have a mild ticking, which comes from either the valves or injectors, or a combination of both. I recently did a valve adjustment on my 3.5L and there was no cam lobe wear whatsoever. The adjustment quieted down the valves a bit, though they were pretty quiet to begin with.

The job is somewhat labor intensive and can run anywhere from $250-$500 depending on where you get it done. I'd look up an independent shop that knows their way around Honda engines. It's not terribly complicated but does require a certain degree of experience since there's a certain aspect of subjectivity on how the feeler gauges should fit when you adjust the valves.

Bonz

Did a valve check/adjustment on my 2010 TL SH AWD in May of 2018. Changed plugs at the same time. Had some ticking develop around 120,000 miles, bought the car the previous year with 105,000 miles on it. I was stunned at how many valves were not just out of spec, but way out of spec on the loose side. Better than tight for sure. Not a single intake or exhaust was tight. Cam lobes looked good. Buttoned things up and the only tick (more like a loud click) remaining was the #1 injector which hadn’t been obvious before the adjustment. Been just “living with” the noisy injector, any need to replace it?

losiglow

iTrader: (1)

Can't speak to the injector. I suppose if it's working fine and you're not seeing any misfires that you could chalk it up to a minor annoyance. Still, if it's overly loud, it could signal some internal problem with the injector which might warrant a replacement. If you do, I'd look into getting a used one on eBay or something. They're readily available from scrapped vehicles and since they rarely go bad, there's tons of them out there.

I've experienced the same thing on valve adjustments - either still in spec or loose. Never tight. It's weird because my '06 TL was often tighter on the exhaust and looser on the intake - which was often the case with most guys who did adjustments on those J32's. But the 4G engines, both the J35 and 37 apparently, seem to loosen on both the intake and exhaust. But like you said, better than tight.

Did you notice any performance benefits after adjusting the valves? If they were especially loose, it might have restricted the airflow a bit from the valves not opening as far as they normally would, which would increase pumping losses. Then again, a few thousandths of an inch might not have really mattered.

RadioActive

My lobe was worn/pitted/flat.

Paid a lot of money to replace cam shaft.

Was irritated, as they didn't offer any reprieve.

SMH.

Bonz

Definitely the first time I've had intake and exhaust all loose, no other car or motorcycle has done that when I have adjusted them.

Yeah the injector is odd, but I put a screwdriver tip on the injector body and put my ear to the handle and it makes me deaf... All the other injectors are clicking away nicely.

Like was said, agreed eBay is a great place to pick that kind of stuff up.

Bonz

Follow-up to my post yesterday. Could a bad cam lobe and or worn rocker translate to a very loud ticking coming directly from the injector body? I know sounds can transfer through engines, however holding on the valve cover and top of the head I could not hear anything but normal valvetrain noise. I already know what I think is the answer to that question, which is no it wouldn’t. However thought I would ask the collective as you guys have more experience with this engine as a whole and idiosyncrasies than I do

csmeance

swap the injector from one bank to the other and see if it follows...

What is very interesting is that the 3.7L owners having issues with the cams! I wonder if it's due to the bad oil rings allowing for carbon buildup and oil consumption. Oil starvation or carbon chunks being knocked loose and clogging the fine passages for cam lubrication could certainly induce the pitting and failure of the cams...

RadioActive

I asked about this. Service manager said, in a nutshell, "you can't prove that lack of oil caused it. And it's not such a widespread problem that Acura would reimburse anyone for the cam shaft replacement. Plus, it's your responsibility to make sure your engine has oil."

So. I guess that's that!

I can't remember if I kept my camshaft. I'll look for it. I'm sure I took a picture of it, maybe... I'll post it if I can dig it up.

Bonz

That’s a good idea on swapping the injector. May as well get something off of eBay because it’s the same work to put a used one in there. The likelihood of both having the same problem is nil.

With that said, I’ve changed out overhead cams on motorcycles many times, is there anything with the 3.7 that would make swapping out a cam any more difficult due to the VTEC? Would be a good time to replace the cam belt and tensioner parts as well.

mrclemson

My 3.5L sounds like that, probably a little quieter. Just had the 105K service done at the dealership, including spark plugs and valve adjustment. They didn't say anything about the noise.

Teddybear

As stated in the oil consumption thread. My TL has damage on the rear camshaft. Hoping head office will be willing to do something about it since they changed my front one out under the oil consumption TSA... but failed to do see the pitting in the rear one....

daGeek

My 2012 TL SH-AWD developed a ticking noise about 6 months ago which I ignored thinking of it as noisy valves. Brought the car in for a valve adjustment last week at 143k miles and my mechanic verified the issue was a couple of worn cam lobes and 3 worn rocker arms which was a bummer. The car burns about 1 quart per 2500 miles which I try to stay on top of (drive 700 miles per week) but I'm guessing being constantly a little low on oil over the lifetime of the engine probably caused this. Cam and rocker arms were replaced and valves were adjusted on top of a few other things. There is no more engine ticking so I hope I get another year or 2 from this car since I still do enjoy the drive.

Bonz

You mind sharing the cost? I did a valve adjustment and a tick developed shortly thereafter. I'm suspecting I missed a worn lobe and or rockers and once I set things they started to make noise that I could hear because everything else was now adjusted. I know that sounds counterintuitive however that's all I can say or explain at this point.

daGeek

$1550 for the cam, 3 rocker arms, valve adjustment and both valve cover gaskets. This was completed by a local mechanic specializing in Honda's/Acura's.

Bonz

Hey thank you for sharing! I was going to have a local independent guy do the next valve adjustment, if it needs a cam and rockers I'd rather have it opened at a shop instead of in my driveway. However with that cost from Acura that puts it in a ballpark I'm willing to pay knowing the top end is going to be good and have the dealership standing behind it if it needs more than just an adjustment.

Joblack

When it comes to cam lobe wear, yes, once the hardened surface wears, the metal below is much softer. That would be case hardened rather than through hardened. Hardened steel becomes brittle and is then tempered to restore some flexibility. The cam wear can be a manufacturing defect, caused by a lack of lubrication, or a combination there of.

HiFiTLS

I am up against this same issue myself. This seems really cheap. I was quoted $2660 for the camshaft and LM rocker for a single Cylinder (Cyl 2). This is also by a Honda only type mechanic. I have my general go to mechanic trying to talk me into a Japan crate engine with 50k miles installed for ~4500. This is because I also have a leaking rear main seal and oil pump which adds $1500 or so to the bill. An engine swap would include brand new spark plugs, power steering fluid, and coolant as well.

Ill try to get another quote. What a PITA.

Based on what a couple of mechanics have said about this issue. It is due to low oil levels over time and is almost always on cyl 2 to start. My Honda mechanic said that he recommends religiously changing oil at 5k miles and NOT to follow the maintenance minder. The dirty oil contributes to leaky components and lack of lubrication at the top of the engine.....not to mention oil consumptions issues being notorious on this engine. I have also convinced myself through research never to use high mileage oil (which I used for years) due to additives swelling seals making leaks appear as they break down. Unfortunately, if you are reading this, you might already have this issue. Once I get this all fixed, I plan to religiously check oil levels and change at 5k miles

csmeance

J37 not sold in japan as far as I'm aware so getting a JDM engine is a moot point....

Engine swap would mean you'd need to do timing belt, etc and have no idea how the oil control rings are either....

vertigo2

I would love to know what engine he's talking about, since, as stated above, the J37 was never sold in anything in Japan.

dzionny_dzionassi

Yes, it was sold.

HiFiTLS

I believe my mechanic is just generalizing these low mileage engine resellers for foreign cars. I think that this is what is being referred(several others on the web): https://www.jdmwestside.com/jdm-2009...37-engine.html

It is supposed to be a ~50k mileage engine. If I did that option, the engine would have fresh everything for just a few bucks more. I am going to shop around to see if the cam and rocker can be done for a bit less. One point made is that there is or were bits of metal floating around in the engine. So who knows what might happen even after replacing the parts.

HiFiTLS

After some research, this is correct. It was sold in Japan in the 2008-2012 Honda Legend(J37A4). Fun Fact: This is the car model that introduced SHAWD and Japan car of the year in 2005 (the same 3.5 version in the base TL)

Bonz

Hello y'all! The rear camshaft is wiped, worn down, whatever the operative term is. 2010 J37, 180,xxx miles.

Took it to a local Indy Honda shop after noticing some shavings on the magnetic drain plug when I changed the oil recently. Will need a camshaft and I suspect rockers for the affected cylinder(s). He got in there to check things out and verified it's the cam, but didn't dig any further until he talked with me. Going to have that conversation with him today about which cylinders are affected.

On the rockers: Are these different than the base 3.5 engine, I am assuming so because of the VTEC on the exhaust.

Any advice on the least expensive sourcing of parts that I could share with him would be helpful. I know he will take care of me but the more information the better.

Thanks!

Bonz

See above post.

Found a used rear J37 head that my local auto shop is going to use for the cam and rockers. Between that, a timing belt/tensioner since it's all apart and associated labor just under $2000. Got to see the cam today, it is messed up all the way across on the exhaust lobes and exhaust rockers all the way across the back are scored, nicked, and one has a flat.

I change the oil every 5000 miles or less, with a synthetic oil. He said the valve covers have all kinds of sludge in them. I don't get it, I pulled those covers a couple years ago for a valve adjustment and while they had some varnish it was not as bad as what he described. Is there something with the emission systems that's not letting the heads "breathe" under the valve cover that could be leading to that?

Thoughts?

ultrapogi

My 12 TL 3.7 is in the shop right now getting the cams replaced and 3 exhaust, 1 intake rocker arms. I only have 108K on the car. I looked at the marks personally and to me they looked very small so not the major damage I have seen on other videos/pics. Still I am planning on keeping the car for a long time. They originally told me about it at my 100K service in May of 2020.

ultrapogi

^100K service in May of 2021 (I am a year off ha ha)

Joblack

If the engine has lots of sludge, I wonder if the oiling path has been partially obstructed thus reducing the oil flow to the cam and rocker. Maybe these engines need some flushing…

Bonz

When I adjusted my valves at 121,000 miles, the heads were clean and no sludge. The shop indicated there was quite a bit of sludge now when they pulled the valve cover to discover the issue with the cam and rockers, 174,000 miles now. The front cylinder bank has no issues with the cam and rockers, however they say there was even more sludge under that valve cover. It gets regular oil changes, syn oil, etc.

Is there anything other than the PCV valve and associated system that would need attention so this is minimized moving forward?

As well, I have seen there could be metallurgy issues with the cams. Has that been "proven" per se, and an oiling issue is not the concern?

Joblack

I don’t know if a metallurgy problem has been confirmed. I suspect that as the oil rings begin to stick the oil would get dirty quicker and form more sludge. I think you are on the right track more frequent oil changes than the MDI says. Aside from trying to flush the oil periodically I don’t know what else one can do.

JM2010 SH-AWD

When I began noticing some oil consumption and discoloration after miles began accumulating on an oil change, my dealer recommended going to 5K intervals, regardless of what the MDI indicated. This seemed to keep the oil cleaner and reduced the consumption issue. I had the warranty rings/piston repair done last year and continue to use the 5K intervals, just in case. So far, so good.

Bonz

Thanks for the posts. I have been doing 5k OCI's. With respect to a flush, what engine flush have folks used?

dzionny_dzionassi

Nothing beats BG EPR for maintenance purposes. Also 5k is too many miles for these engines, unless it is highway miles.

Bonz

Thanks for the input on 5k being too long, as it does get mostly shorter runs and open road running not near as much. Will shorten it up to 1500 or so for the first few OCI's after the cam/rockers get replaced, then aim for 3000-3500 mile OCI's.

Bonz

2010 J37 is back on the road. New rear cam and all six exhaust rockers replaced. Three of the six exhaust lobes were worn beyond far, others were pitted. So, all six exhaust rockers were replaced. But she's back and running great.

Really disappointed. It's obvious there's a metallurgy issue with the cam. I did keep the cam (local shop did the work). Intake lobes/rockers and cam saddles/caps were fine. Pulled the pan and replaced the mesh filter/cleaned, whichever needed done. Fine metallic shavings in there as well as on the magnetic drain plug, which tipped me off to the issue at the last oil change, along with the valve tick that appeared well before I would have expected based on the last valve adjustment.

WDPanda

Poor PCV valves were the cause of sludge in old camry V6s.
i'm curious to know how many actually have changed their PCV valves. I do it as soon as I buy the car and maybe once again in a few years. I'm wondering about the people that probably leave the original one in there.