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They said that the 2.0 turbo will come optional with SH-AWD not just FWD.
Yea I know. I just thought I saw a post above where someone said the 2.0T TLX would be slower than the Accord because of the SH-AWD. I was just saying that there is a FWD version and would be real close speed wise.
A pipe dream, but imagine if this ushered in a next gen ILX Type-S based on the 10th gen Civic, with the CTR drivetrain and suspension
For the 2ILX, they should switch it back to double wishbone suspension (well, we'll see how it is with the 2TLX first) and adjust accordingly, although lots of reviewers praise the CTR already having very with little torque steer and I think it has a lower control arm (as per Alex on Autos) so MacPherson strut + single wishbone suspension.
Alex, at around the 21 minute mark, wonders how the CTR will handle with AWD.
Do these 2.0 k20c4’s suffer from oil dilution problems?
No, that's the 1.5 liter in the Accords. The 2.0 is solid so far.
Originally Posted by StealthTL-S
It appears you can get the base 2021 TLX with the 2.0 turbo K20C4 , and tune it to get almost 350 hp and over 300 torque. What a nice upgrade to the K20C4 ! I may be able to get the TLX 4 cylinder and not even wait around for the Type S!
There is aftermarket support for the 2.0 turbo. K-Tuner and Hondata are available for this engine and Accord owners are getting pretty good results on tuning. PRL and others make downpipes. Folks are even swapping out the stock turbo for the Type R turbo. I expect that there will be a few pioneers here. Some may not need to wait for the Type S...
That's incorrect, HD configurable digital displays are much more expensive than a simple analog gauge setup. It's a why a Nissan Sentra still has them while a S-class or 7 Series used a full digital instrument display. Also why a Civic LX uses a analog tach and simple passive LCD display vs. a Civic Type-R uses a full digital instrument display with a HD TFT LCD display.
Analog gauges are much cheaper than digital instrumentation. Today analog gauges for automotive applications are nothing more than some plastic components (needles, backplate, light pipes), digital stepper motors (yes, analog gauges are actually digital in operation but human eyes can not tell), simple PCB, and cheap micro-controller (Pic, AVR) that supports simple CAN bus. All cheap to manufacture and assemble. Perhaps $20 for a tach/speedo/gas/temp setup for mass production.
A low end HD digital TFT LCD displays are ~$50 just for the display (which need billion dollar fabs to fabricate) and go up from there, add in a higher performance microprocessor (ARM), more expensive PCB, higher end CAN bus controller. Figure ~$100 for a average display like a Honda CRV.
Full digital dash goes down to the 2 series & not a 7 series exclusive,
BMW 2 series interiorit’s cheaper to crank out a single LCD that can be cheaply programmed vs a mechanical assembly that has to take a digital signal and convert it to a swinging pointer.
Things to note on the analogue display that you don’t have on the full digital that drives costs up vs a single TFT digital display:
pointers
chrome bezels around gauges
Complex plastic bezel to hold gauges
Structure behind to hold gauges and LCDs
Text in English that needs to be translated when car is sold into another country
Primary units in mph, a kph version is required.
The odometer and temperature functions are consolidated onto the central LCD, a money saving measure.
And stuff that doesn’t make sense on full digital - probably due to the odd shape they have to work with. You can make an LCD panel any shape but rectangular is cheaper
Row of warning lights across top
Separate fuel and temp gauges.
Eventually the full digital will show up on the cheaper trim level and lower models but it will be decontented by turning stuff off in the software.
So why do the cheap cars get analogue? It’s because the buying public perceives a digital display is worth more. Maybe they only need an Audi A3 but maybe they’ll desperately want an A4 in a higher trim level because they like the glass panel. Better yet they’ll choose the A4 over a 3 series or C class for this tech.
It’s all about product differentiation and figuring out what feature will make the customer spend more. Even if it means losing money by putting more expensive parts into the cheaper car.
Remember when cheap to make CD's were way more expensive than expensive to make tape cassettes to the retail public?
Last edited by BEAR-AvHistory; 06-01-2020 at 08:15 AM.
Full digital dash goes down to the 2 series & not a 7 series exclusive,
BMW 2 series interiorit’s cheaper to crank out a single LCD that can be cheaply programmed vs a mechanical assembly that has to take a digital signal and convert it to a swinging pointer.
Things to note on the analogue display that you don’t have on the full digital that drives costs up vs a single TFT digital display:
pointers
chrome bezels around gauges
Complex plastic bezel to hold gauges
Structure behind to hold gauges and LCDs
Text in English that needs to be translated when car is sold into another country
Primary units in mph, a kph version is required.
The odometer and temperature functions are consolidated onto the central LCD, a money saving measure.
And stuff that doesn’t make sense on full digital - probably due to the odd shape they have to work with. You can make an LCD panel any shape but rectangular is cheaper
Row of warning lights across top
Separate fuel and temp gauges.
Eventually the full digital will show up on the cheaper trim level and lower models but it will be decontented by turning stuff off in the software.
So why do the cheap cars get analogue? It’s because the buying public perceives a digital display is worth more. Maybe they only need an Audi A3 but maybe they’ll desperately want an A4 in a higher trim level because they like the glass panel. Better yet they’ll choose the A4 over a 3 series or C class for this tech.
It’s all about product differentiation and figuring out what feature will make the customer spend more. Even if it means losing money by putting more expensive parts into the cheaper car.
Remember when cheap to make CD's were way more expensive than expensive to make tape cassettes to the retail public?
Cheaper cars get analog gauges because it's cheaper than a digital display and works well, it's a simple business reason (it's absolutely absurd to suggest "Even if it means losing money by putting more expensive parts into the cheaper car." especially on a high volume vehicle). It has nothing to do with the public perception that digital is superior. As for plastics? Pennies to dimes for injection molded plastic components like the needles and bezels, there is assembly cost for integrating it together but it's also low.
As for "BMW 2 series interiorit’s cheaper to crank out a single LCD that can be cheaply programmed vs a mechanical assembly that has to take a digital signal and convert it to a swinging pointer." you apparently do not understand how modern production car instruments work. Virtually all modern car analog instruments are digital stepper motors that move the needle that cost ~$1-2 each in high volume for auto quality instrumentation mechanical analog gauges. The conversion for the digital signal (MPH, or RPM) to the mechanical position is done by a cheap micro-controller (AVR, PiC) with a H-bridge interface and S/W. Yes modern analog gauges are already controlled by S/W, and have been since the 90's when true analog gauges faded away.
The best high resolution displays are active HD TFT LCD displays, today are still expensive than stepper motors and passive small LCD and LED indicators but will come down over time.
Their environment makes them much more expensive than TFT LCD's displays used in tablets and other electronics, especially due to the auto environment.
Eventually the vast majority of consumer cars will have active TFT LCD displays but it will take more time to drive down the cost to combined LED's, passive LCD and stepper motors today.
This was introduced 4 years ago, maybe the TLX team did not get the memo & thought it was way to expensive to put in an Acura so they stayed with cheap analogs.
Last edited by BEAR-AvHistory; 06-01-2020 at 01:41 PM.
Cheaper cars get analog gauges because it's cheaper than a digital display and works well, it's a simple business reason (it's absolutely absurd to suggest "Even if it means losing money by putting more expensive parts into the cheaper car." especially on a high volume vehicle). It has nothing to do with the public perception that digital is superior. As for plastics? Pennies to dimes for injection molded plastic components like the needles and bezels, there is assembly cost for integrating it together but it's also low.
As for "BMW 2 series interiorit’s cheaper to crank out a single LCD that can be cheaply programmed vs a mechanical assembly that has to take a digital signal and convert it to a swinging pointer." you apparently do not understand how modern production car instruments work. Virtually all modern car analog instruments are digital stepper motors that move the needle that cost ~$1-2 each in high volume for auto quality instrumentation mechanical analog gauges. The conversion for the digital signal (MPH, or RPM) to the mechanical position is done by a cheap micro-controller (AVR, PiC) with a H-bridge interface and S/W. Yes modern analog gauges are already controlled by S/W, and have been since the 90's when true analog gauges faded away.
The best high resolution displays are active HD TFT LCD displays, today are still expensive than stepper motors and passive small LCD and LED indicators but will come down over time.
Their environment makes them much more expensive than TFT LCD's displays used in tablets and other electronics, especially due to the auto environment.
Eventually the vast majority of consumer cars will have active TFT LCD displays but it will take more time to drive down the cost to combined LED's, passive LCD and stepper motors today.
I just bought a new $12,000 motorcycle that has a TFT display that has incredible clarity and features. Whether it's HD or not I can't say, but it sure looks like it is.
How about cheap cars like Honda's low priced line the Civic starting around $20,000.
This was introduced 4 years ago, maybe the TLX team did not get the memo & thought it was way to expensive to put in an Acura so they stayed with cheap analogs.
Have you been in a new Civic? While it is definitely digital, it sure does look cheap considering it's resolution...
How about cheap cars like Honda's low priced line the Civic starting around $20,000. 2016 Honda Civic Start Up
This was introduced 4 years ago, maybe the TLX team did not get the memo & thought it was way to expensive to put in an Acura so they stayed with cheap analogs.
The TLX is disappointing with the analog gauges, something Alex on Auto's and I share a opinion on
The 2017 Civic LX for ~$20k gets a analog tach, and passive custom LCD display (not a dotmatrix)
The 2017 Civic Touring model which you showed is ~$27k gets a active TFT HD LCD display and no mechanical gauges. Again for for more money a nicer display. Contentization.
Both share the same passive LCD bar graph for temp and gas gauges
Originally Posted by jjsC5
I just bought a new $12,000 motorcycle that has a TFT display that has incredible clarity and features. Whether it's HD or not I can't say, but it sure looks like it is.
+1, a 2015 CBR1000RR I looked at didn't have a full dotmatrix display but a passive LCD display that still looked great.
The next generation had a full TFT LCD display.
I hope the Type S has everything included. I don't want to see an Advance package on the 2.0T with more options
While things can change, the interior shot of the Type S has a button blank where the Advanced trim has the HUD brightness button. So I don't believe it will have that option, unfortunately.
While things can change, the interior shot of the Type S has a button blank where the Advanced trim has the HUD brightness button. So I don't believe it will have that option, unfortunately.
That will be so sad if the S doesn't have all of the advance features, it should have all of it and more lol
That will be so sad if the S doesn't have all of the advance features, it should have all of it and more lol
I wouldn't be surprised if the Type-S is built off of the A-Spec trim. Similar to how Volvo's Polestar Engineered cars are based off their R-Design (their version of A-Spec) trim level.
That will be so sad if the S doesn't have all of the advance features, it should have all of it and more lol
Agreed. Based on the videos it looks like the 17 speaker setup and most adjustable seats are making their way from the Advance to the Type-S but not sure on other items. I'd hope the 360 camera would make it's way up as well but I'm not too confident in that either.
I have until December to make a decision to extend my lease and wait for the S or get a M340i which will be fully loaded. I would of expected the Type S would be the new flagship since they retired the rlx
While things can change, the interior shot of the Type S has a button blank where the Advanced trim has the HUD brightness button. So I don't believe it will have that option, unfortunately.
Originally Posted by kuzdu
That will be so sad if the S doesn't have all of the advance features, it should have all of it and more lol
I said over on TOV that I do not think the Tupe S will get the HUD nor does it appear to get fog lights. I hope they do not skimp on the Type S because it should offer everything as the Advance plus the HUD will help with the fact the gauge is not full digital. They are using the term available a lot in the press release though which scares me.
Looks like Type S will be trimmed out like tier above the ASpec. It won't have Advanced trim features. Advanced will be separate still.
That seemed to be the direction this was going. So no HUD, heated steering wheel, or 360 camera. Right now I have a 2019 RDX Advance and my wife has an A-SPEC. I drive both quite a bit and based on that the 360 camera is what I would miss most, not that it is very good quality, but it does make parking easier. I can live without the heated steering wheel here in North Carolina, and the biggest thing I’d miss in the HUD is the digital speedometer but it looks like that is coming to the TLX’s MMI. If the TLX Advance/Type S doesn’t have an extending thigh cushion I’d miss that as well.
If this is the route they are going I am dumbfounded because my preference, by a mile, would be an A-Spec 4 cylinder and I would imagine that would be a popular trim level.
If this is the route they are going I am dumbfounded because my preference, by a mile, would be an A-Spec 4 cylinder and I would imagine that would be a popular trim level.
I'm pretty sure the A-Spec is not getting the 3.0T, and this is a poorly drawn graphic. I think it's just meant to illustrate that the A-Spec trim is built on the Tech trim and adjacent to the Advance trim, and that the Type-S is based on the A-Spec.
Looks like Type S will be trimmed out like tier above the ASpec. It won't have Advanced trim features. Advanced will be separate still.
I hope Acura is watching that would be plain dumb. The advance is only available on the 2.0T. Give people a reason to feel like they are getting more if you are going to have an upcharge for the 3.0T. Audi for example build on to their S from the lessor models. It would be mad that a 50k car will not have heated steering wheel or 360 camera so you dont curb rash your nice 20" wheels. One last time EVERTHING NEEDS TO BE OFFERED ON TYPE S ACURA
That seemed to be the direction this was going. So no HUD, heated steering wheel, or 360 camera. Right now I have a 2019 RDX Advance and my wife has an A-SPEC. I drive both quite a bit and based on that the 360 camera is what I would miss most, not that it is very good quality, but it does make parking easier. I can live without the heated steering wheel here in North Carolina, and the biggest thing I’d miss in the HUD is the digital speedometer but it looks like that is coming to the TLX’s MMI. If the TLX Advance/Type S doesn’t have an extending thigh cushion I’d miss that as well.
Wife has the RDX Advanced. I love the look of the A-Spec but there are a few things I'm a bit iffy on. Given that you have both, how do you feel about the suede/alcantara like inserts on the seats? Are they showing wear any quicker than the leather? Also, how are the ventilated seats in the A-Spec (Again non-leather) vs the Advanced (Full leather)? Also, Type-S seats same as the A-Spec, I can't see them not having the pneumatic side bolsters (That would be a real letdown).
Wife has the RDX Advanced. I love the look of the A-Spec but there are a few things I'm a bit iffy on. Given that you have both, how do you feel about the suede/alcantara like inserts on the seats? Are they showing wear any quicker than the leather? Also, how are the ventilated seats in the A-Spec (Again non-leather) vs the Advanced (Full leather)? Also, Type-S seats same as the A-Spec, I can't see them not having the pneumatic side bolsters (That would be a real letdown).
Thanks
Good point, would be really odd for the Type-S to not have inflatable side bolsters with all that power. Hopefully it means they get the Advance points of adjustability
They’re not showing any wear at all, just like my Advance seats (her car is about 8 months newer than mine). I really like the look of them.
I don’t notice any discernible differences in the ventilated seats between the A-Spec and Advance
That would be nice, but then it would end up costing more, and if their cars cost as much as the competition, their value prop would be shot to hell.
There is no reason why they would cost more & a reason why they would cost less.
Say you have a car that comes in 4 flavors that ratchet up the content & cost. So I choose flavor 3 as totally suitable except - flavor 4 has one item I really want. Do I step all the way up to buy the full flavor 4 package or just get flavor 3 with a single option à al carte?
Last edited by BEAR-AvHistory; 06-02-2020 at 11:08 PM.
I hope the Type S has everything included. I don't want to see an Advance package on the 2.0T with more options
Originally Posted by fiatlux
I wouldn't be surprised if the Type-S is built off of the A-Spec trim. Similar to how Volvo's Polestar Engineered cars are based off their R-Design (their version of A-Spec) trim level.
Originally Posted by MIKEYDRED
I said over on TOV that I do not think the Tupe S will get the HUD nor does it appear to get fog lights. I hope they do not skimp on the Type S because it should offer everything as the Advance plus the HUD will help with the fact the gauge is not full digital. They are using the term available a lot in the press release though which scares me.
Originally Posted by fiatlux
I'm pretty sure the A-Spec is not getting the 3.0T, and this is a poorly drawn graphic. I think it's just meant to illustrate that the A-Spec trim is built on the Tech trim and adjacent to the Advance trim, and that the Type-S is based on the A-Spec.
Originally Posted by MIKEYDRED
I hope Acura is watching that would be plain dumb. The advance is only available on the 2.0T. Give people a reason to feel like they are getting more if you are going to have an upcharge for the 3.0T. Audi for example build on to their S from the lessor models. It would be mad that a 50k car will not have heated steering wheel or 360 camera so you dont curb rash your nice 20" wheels. One last time EVERTHING NEEDS TO BE OFFERED ON TYPE S ACURA
I think the way Acura looks at this is the 2.0T Adv is for one kind of buyer, the 3.0T Type S is for a different kind of buyer. It seems reasonable to me that they would cut some Adv content to keep the cost down. Otherwise why not offer the Adv with the V6T? Likely that would push the car too far up the cost axis. In the dealership video they stated they hope the Type S would account for 20% of sales. That is more than I would have expected (my guess is 10% at most) but to hit that they can't price it too high. So some Adv content needs to go. Plus with the 2.0T trim levels all having SHAWD option, combined with the various colors, A-Spec, and Type S plus colors, that is a lot of SKUs. Every Acura shopper knows they keep costs down by limiting SKUs.
There is no reason why they would cost more & a reason why they would cost less.
Say you have a car that comes in 4 flavors that ratchet up the content & cost. So I choose flavor 3 as totally suitable except - flavor 4 has one item I really want. Do I step all the way up to buy the full flavor 4 package or just get flavor 3 with a single option à al carte?
Even adding a new trim level adds significant cost because that's an additional set of processes, tooling switchovers, and decision points that need to be implemented and adopted. A la carte becomes incredibly expensive unless it's port installed options because of all the different points where there's divergence in the assembly process. One of the reason why Toyota is able to have such low COGS is because they've streamlined the process to an incredible degree by reducing variation. The production line will spend a period of time making identical cars (same options, same color, same everything) before switching to a different variation (color, option set, etc.). With a la carte options, unless you have such high volumes of each combination that you can afford to batch things together, your assembly line will be constantly context switching, which greatly increases the amount of time and sophistication needed. This is all operations and manufacturing process management 101.
I think everyone is correct the S will not have the advance features which is a disappointment. 50k + for an Aspec with a turbo engine will not cut it, let’s not forget the weight of the car and those huge wheels. They may charge 3k extra for the light weight wheels.
Even adding a new trim level adds significant cost because that's an additional set of processes, tooling switchovers, and decision points that need to be implemented and adopted. A la carte becomes incredibly expensive unless it's port installed options because of all the different points where there's divergence in the assembly process. One of the reason why Toyota is able to have such low COGS is because they've streamlined the process to an incredible degree by reducing variation. The production line will spend a period of time making identical cars (same options, same color, same everything) before switching to a different variation (color, option set, etc.). With a la carte options, unless you have such high volumes of each combination that you can afford to batch things together, your assembly line will be constantly context switching, which greatly increases the amount of time and sophistication needed. This is all operations and manufacturing process management 101.
+1 exactly. Any configurations add some costs from supply chain management, component distribution which makes kanban (which Toyota basically invented with TPS) more challenging, and lastly long term maintenance part storage (as your warehouse will have to stock more components). Add in if the different components require other components (i.e. wiring harnesses, S/W, different roof for a sunroof,....). I realize alot of people prefer ordering and configuring their vehicles but also makes consumer shopping more difficult to compete different dealers against each other if buying cars of the lot since it's not identical configurations.
Honda has stuck mostly to their trim levels for most of their US vehicle line, Sometimes, there are some individual line options (for the 3G TL there was Nav and summer tires) but by and large HOnda/Acura's are trim levels (DX/LX/EX/Touring/Sport/EX-L/....)
Aluminum is used in the hood and front fenders as well as the battery being mounted in the trunk.
Beside the NSX, can't think of any other Honda/Acura that has done that.
Curious what the weight distribution will be.
The 3G TL 6MT was 60/40 which works pretty well
Aluminum is used in the hood and front fenders as well as the battery being mounted in the trunk.
Beside the NSX, can't think of any other Honda/Acura that has done that.
Curious what the weight distribution will be.
The 3G TL 6MT was 60/40 which works pretty well
57/43 for the FWD model according to C&D. Nothing official yet.
+1 exactly. Any configurations add some costs from supply chain management, component distribution which makes kanban (which Toyota basically invented with TPS) more challenging, and lastly long term maintenance part storage (as your warehouse will have to stock more components). Add in if the different components require other components (i.e. wiring harnesses, S/W, different roof for a sunroof,....). I realize alot of people prefer ordering and configuring their vehicles but also makes consumer shopping more difficult to compete different dealers against each other if buying cars of the lot since it's not identical configurations.
Honda has stuck mostly to their trim levels for most of their US vehicle line, Sometimes, there are some individual line options (for the 3G TL there was Nav and summer tires) but by and large HOnda/Acura's are trim levels (DX/LX/EX/Touring/Sport/EX-L/....)
True, but Canada gets many features added on our trims which are not available in US and sales wise they sell 1/10th compared to your market. Leaving it out makes no sense. Hoping t Type S gets all the goodies in one package
05-31-2020, 06:33 PM
