TeamAcura

^^ you omitted the 2011 and 2012 stats though. LOL

BEAR-AvHistory

You sure you want to see them?

2008/9/10/11/12/13 through March*

Acura TL

46,766
33,620
34,049
31,237
33,572
6,793*


BMW

112,464
90,960
100,910
94,371
99,602
20,662*


Infinity G37

64,181
47,174
58,143
58,246
59,445
12,919*


MB C class

72,471
52,427
58,785
69,314
81,797
22,912*

winstrolvtec

Except that for some, those "historical norms" are not actually normal. For one thing, the 3G sales were not historically normal for the TL in the first place. So a large part of it is a matter of perspective. Nontheless, it's no secret the 4G sells at about half the rate the 3G did but as another example, some top selling cars at similar peak years are still down roughly 30% today, such as the 3 series and that's with two new model generations (where the TL has had one), so while this TL has not necessarily been good for Acura, especially compared to the 3G, it might not be as bad as people think on a much larger scale.

KeithL

The 3G sales were not the norm because they hit the ball out of the park and had a great car. Had they evolved that well into the 4G they could have kept the momentum up.

BEAR-AvHistory

As usual I have to disagree. The data set I use goes back to 2002 which is a 2G TL. Its still selling at near 2X the 4G at the end of its production cycle. There is no reason to think prior years of 2G sold in the 30K range so 2X+ of the 4G sales is the historical norm for the TL.

2002 to 2007

60,764
56,770
77,895
78,218
71,348
58,545

Agree the 3G was special really liked mine but the 4G is a stand alone aberration in TL sales.

SSFTSX

you do realize Germans have introduced cheaper 4 cylinder version of there cars with 4 year maintainance. ($2k value).
TL went bigger and more upmarket.
Aslo Accord has become more refined and powerfull (6 speed Auo). (It is more refined than all its entry level German/Infiniti G37).
So there is alot of factors that went against TL beside styling.

BEAR-AvHistory

Its called understanding the Market Place AKA marketing 101. The TL product planers made more then one mistake regarding their brand & it snowballed on them.

Some of it was just plain bad luck, the Tsunami, but the die had already been cast on the acceptance of the 4G product when it was hit big time by the press on the styling. Most of the buying public will never ever get past how it looks. I am in that bucket if I don't care for the looks its done.

The brand was not where the planners thought it to be & the attempted step up was just two big. A two phased plan with a 4G being 1/2 way there & the 5G closing the deal might have been a better way to go.

Would have really, really loved to have been part of the original planning sessions, the mid cycle save the cycle planning & subsequent post mortem.

SeismicGuy

Only one thing I would disagree with this statement and that is limiting the stupidity to just the TL product planners. Other than its initial introduction into the marketplace in the late 1980s virtually every marketing decision has ended up being a disaster.

g37guy01

If by refined you mean Lexus like, it's not anything I want in a BMW or Infiniti. BMW is more refined in a different way, IMO. My g is thankfully not Lexus like, and I like the growl and slingshot effect, when I mash the gas.

winstrolvtec

On average, it's more like 1.75X is the historical normal as opposed to 2X+. Slight distinction but worth noting especially when others are down to that type of affect (although not as bad) and we don't consider anything to be wrong with them. Not that I disagree, as something is clearly still off the mark nontheless, as I readily admitted to, but you may have overlooked the overall point. There are examples of other top selling cars within range that have not returned to these "historical norms" and we don't go around suggesting they screwed the pooch or messed up the styling but we could easily make that case just the same.

Again the 3 series is a top, if not the top, selling car in range and is a prime example of this, being down over 30% from peak years through two model gens, maybe they have the same styling issue to a lesser extent if that's all it takes to conclude that. By that same token, I'm not suggesting there is nothing to be said for the 4G styling controversy, just that it is overblown IMO and the numbers that support these theories can easily go against them, so once again, it is largely a matter of perspective as well.

As others have mentioned, there are other outside factors to consider to coincide with the styling direction. Increased competition within the brand is one thing, upmarket push and increase instead of lower optioned price points and simultaneously at a bad economic time, increased competition for an entry priced luxury mid size sedan with FWD, AWD option, etc, etc. Not suggesting that there was not poor planning and or marketing but it's not all styling because some don't like it personally, that's a little too convenient.

What someone likes or doesn't like personally, doesnt necessarily speak for how things fair in general or more objective terms. If you take more than styling into consideration, I think it's only fair to suggest that the 4G direction hurt but it's not responsible for all the demise.

It just goes to show as a matter of perspective, that as much as you think your 3G was special and how much you liked it, I find my 4G to be that much better than either of my 3G's and I don't think it looks better but certainly not any worse.

g37guy01

"Again the 3 series is a top, if not the top, selling car in range and is a prime example of this, being down over 30% from peak years through two model gens, "

You don't think the economy since 2008 has anything to do with this? I know I don't have the credentials to understand why there is a variation of the numbers since 2003.

winstrolvtec

And that is exactly my point. When it's a car we like, it's the economy, when it's a car we don't particularly care for, it's the styling or it's ugly, not good, etc, etc. Why the double standard? Why do we not also go around saying the two recent 3 series' (as examples) are an aberration, etc?

Of course the economy has had a hand in that for many brands and cars but so does it then for the TL and I'm not sure every car and every brand would be affected by this equally because, on the other end, there are those that outpace the good economic times numbers despite facing a bad one, so as you said, who really knows? Again, that's why I say it's largely a matter of perspective.

And if no one really knows why so much assumption? Why does that automatically mean something is wrong with the product or it is a failure? My guess, because it suites ones own personal opinion and take on it, that helps crutch, solidify, and/or validate their position.

Sometimes it's just circumstantial, it doesn't automatically have to mean that a reduction of sales to any extent necessarily makes the product worse or a bad one, or anything along those lines. It may be bad for business but it may also not be as bad as people think, possibility it could be good in a few ways, we don't necessarily know that either. I don't know if anyone could actually pin point with enough accuracy to determine what is truly what.

That doesn't mean the opposite can't be true, it's just interesting to see how it's interpreted depending on where one is coming from with regards to the vehicle and generally speaking, it seems many might need the reassurance of vocal opinion and sales figures to determine what is good for them instead of determining that themselves.

draph

I presume this latest tangent in this thread is comparing sales trends, not raw numbers. Bear, are your numbers strictly US sales, or worldwide sales? I know Acura is marketed in much fewer countries than the others. Also TL is sedan only where BMW 3 and Infiniti G37 offer coupes and convertibles. TL price point moved upward with 4G (especially AWD model) which naturally decreases demand in favor of higher margins. With that in mind, it would be interesting to see TL historical earnings numbers for each of its years. I suspect they are still off from prior years, but not as much as unit sales volume suggests.

wutaguy

You have to also factor in how the price went up for the 4G. I bought my 3G for 31K and now my 4G for 39K. That's a big jump in price for many.

BEAR-AvHistory

Its US only with Canada & China the TL export countries excluded. Why you can't weight the bad economy to much with Acura over the full cycle is because the other brands all trended back & Hyundai/Kia grew closed the gap & will most likely pass Honda in the next year or two.

Acura TL has been table flat since its launch with no trend upward for the whole cycle. Has to be more than the Economy that is their problem.

Earnings are something else altogether because you are dealing with foreign exchange rates, futures buying & the weak yen vs. the dollar has been a windfall for Honda profits.

AFAIK they do only a consolidate financials & do not break out the numbers by car line. I expect the TL which is about 80% North American sourced & manufactured here would be harder hit than a JDM vehicle in a profit per vehicle calculation. They can lose money on the car production & make it up with good guess in the foreign exchange market.

BEAR-AvHistory

The price jump was what I was talking about when I though a two stage approach with a 4G as an intermediate & the 5G as the where they want to be car. Car was not viewed by the buying public as a good deal so they stayed away. That’s one of the marketing 101 thing’s. They did not understand that the value buyer was driving sales not image buyers. There is a break point in MSRP where you move from value to luxury & I thing Acura found it someplace in the TL’s pricing schedule & the car had not yet developed a luxury image.

Devil Dog 21

Very good point!

Also, since I was the one who asked about sales numbers and suggested the economy for the decline thus causing this tangent, let me also help solve it....the 4G TL has had lower sales numbers than expected due to the lack of a folding back seat.

JT4

^^ This is very true and IMO the same problem Acura is going to have trying to sell a $70K RLX. It’s a shame Acura has not learned from their past mistakes..

It worries and really makes me wonder what Acura has in store for the 5G.

TeamAcura

Wait a second... the 4G is not considered a luxury sports sedan??? I've been mislead. LOL

BEAR-AvHistory

IMHO by most owners yes....by most luxury sports sedan buyer no. They have not been able to sell them in any volume into the luxury MSRP market.

They have always sold on price not image.

The luxury debate has been beaten to death here. We hear well I crossed shopped TL 335 S4 C class etc. & picked the TL because I felt it had the most for the money. The other side of the coin is most buyers of the other three brands did not cross shop the TL. Acura management clearly stated that their strategy to crack tier one did not work & the were going back to smart value? or something like that with the 5G.

TeamAcura

With all due respect I have to differ with you. And yet magazines and reviews stack the 4G up against the 3 series, the 5 series, A4, A6, S60, ATS, C Class, E Class, Lexus IS, GS, Infiniti G, and M. If you look at the sales figures for mid size luxury sedans, the 4G did pretty well. The problem is the TL or 4G is a tweener. The price is 10K cheaper than a 5 series and still offers more standard features than 3 series for the same price. Whether you want to believe it or not, Acura is a luxury brand. Just on an entry level end of luxury. I think their philosophy has always been to give buyers the taste and feel of luxury without breaking the bank. Then they move on to bigger and better things as the old adage goes.

BEAR-AvHistory

Its not the specific car it’s the brand itself. Entry level to what? There is nothing to move up to. You buy a C class you can follow the progression of models up to $200K+ top line cars. You buy a 1 series & you can progress up to $150K cars with Audi you can go from a A4 to a $210K RS8

As for how it did sales wise it gets killed by the bottom end MB's & BMW's. If you move up to where some here think it competes against both the 5 series the E class which cost more & outsell it. The E class outsells it by almost 2 to & the 5 series by 5 to 3.

UKwrath33

That's true. Hell even a Hyundai you can go up to an Equus which are starting MSRP at roughly 60k. Though the RLX is now putting itself up there.

123456SPEED

The 3G had value appeal and the bonus of great looks. The 4G lost it's value and it's edgy flashiness is not what value sedan buyers want. I think the design has held up okay, it was just too new in 2009 for Honda buyers.
Cadillacs looked the same and Audi's debut with the horse collar grill looked ugly to me but maybe their prestige helped pull it off, but Acura doesn't have that prestige.
Acura prices are killing it's appeal IMO. The RLX price is cringeworthy. Screw wanting Tier 1, V8, RWD, and even NSX. The Acuras I loved are gone. I assume most Acuras are leased now, just like BMWs.

After owning Acura coupes since 1990 I'm now considering a used ZDX. For $32k the Z makes some sense for Me, for now. This is what a neglected Acura coupe lover is left with. I've never owned a sedan or an SUV.

KRIZ PR

I totally agree with you. .

TeamAcura

Bear, you are missing my point. LOL. You unknowingly admitted that Acura is a luxury brand with your last post. Which was what I was getting at. You could move up to a different make that is more popular if you will and one can move up within Acura technically from say, a TSX to TL. The fact is Acura is a small luxury brand with a small selection of models trying to make a name for itself. There aren't many options to choose from. Unlike MB or BMW that has been around for a very long time with many options to choose from. Shot they even make wagons! Although the TSX does have a wagon in their line up.

BEAR-AvHistory

Sorry I did not admit anything of the sort. You can’t have a luxury car that’s not part of a luxury brand.

Again, its just my personal opinion but when I had a TL I did not think of it as a luxury car. Its real hard to do when the window glass was etched with Honda part numbers & the side step kit I bought for my daughters Pilot had half the parts bags labeled Acura because the same kit went on the MDX. It was a very nice car but people including one of my kids still said in too many cases "nice car, what's an Acura?"

I don't consider either of my BMW's as luxury cars rather as a premium sport coupe & sport convert. They are to me entry level cars into a luxury brand, not luxury cars in & of themselves.

I had a Jaguar 4.0 V8 Sovereign & an MB 400SL V8 when I lived in England. Those were luxury cars & I don't think anything at the level we are talking about here measures up to them.

g37guy01

As you can tell people's perceptions are different with regard to luxury. I don't consider the 3 series, TL, g, cts, to pick on a few, to be luxury sedans either. They are premium or upscale sedans.

If you are coming from nothing a tsx may well be your version of a luxury sedan. If you're coming from a gold Audi a8, not so much.

Devil Dog 21

Agree.

Luxury is defined by the individual buyer not the wishes of the manufacturer or the general public's perception.

JT4

I agree, people's perceptions vary..

But IMO I consider them Entry Level luxury vehicles. I would add the C-Class, ES, IS and A4 to this mix also

TeamAcura

My whole debate about luxury is that there's different levels of luxury but all should theoretically have the same kind of quality and standard you would typically find in a luxury vehicle. For instance, leather seating is standard on a luxury car or HID headlights. The more you spend, the more luxurious ammenities you get and the better quality. I consider the TL, 3 series, A4, G, and C-Class as entry level luxury cars because they all have a luxury look and feel to it than an ordinary car such as a Camry, Accord, Impala, Passat and Maxima.

I don't solely use Wikipedia as my only reference because some of their stuff I think are biased but they broke it down nicely.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luxury_vehicle
So...any updates on the next gen TLX?

JT4

^^ I tend to agree with this.

Booya4139

Meh, I had a 500SL, and I think alot of this is just snobbery.

All of these vague terms like refinement and luxury... Sizzle sells the steak..

Although concerning the TL I don't understand why the shifter area is so cheap looking, and the door handles being all plastic... Could have wrapped them in something and classed up the shifter area for cheap...


If acura didn't miss so badly on the styling this car would have been a sales leader through the economic downturn... If was positioned perfectly, but execution was bad.

Booya4139

Play this out a bit, what differences in the 3 series vs 5 series do you believe makes it 'luxury'???? They use the same engines, drivetrains, interiors are very similar, similar materials...

I'd venture to guess that you simply see so many of these vehicles on the road that the appeal wears off a bit. C-Classes are like honda civics in my neck of the woods... Heck the rear end of the C Class looks like a civic rear end...

g37guy01

Honestly, I'm not sure. Size, materials and tech. The same indicators I would say if it were the accord vs the TL. Or the TL vs the rlx. Or the g vs the m.

In my neck of the woods s550s are like civics. Are they snobbery also?

The definition of luxury that I like: nonessential item expensive and/or hard to get. Certainly any car discussed here does not meet this criteria. After all once mans non-essential item is another mans Essential item.

SeismicGuy

One problem with all this luxury talk is that the overall Asian brands are really split into sub-brands due to the way the Asian cars had to enter the market, going back to the 1970s or so.

It is sort of the reverse pattern of the major German brands. With BMW or even more so Mercedes, the brand was already established at the high end and over the years they expanded the brands downward to attract less affluent first time buyers. So there was no embarrassment about buying an entry level BMW or Mercedes since it was still a BMW or Mercedes.

On the other hand pretty much all of the Asians had to enter the market (back in the days) as very affordable practical econo-boxes. This is why they couldn't do the reverse of what the Germans did and try to expand the brand upwards. Toyota, Datsun (Nissan), and Honda had certain identities and there was no way they could suddenly offer an upscale luxury expensive model within the brand. Hence the Lexus, Infiniti, and Acura brands come along.

Of course the real brands that need to be compared when looking at the German brands is combined Toyota/Lexus, Nissan/Infiniti, Honda/Acura.

Edward'TLS

Luxury brands and luxury products are something that cost a whole lot more than the non-luxury equivalents, even though they provide the same fundamental functions as the non-luxury equivalents. The more premium the luxury items, the fewer the ordinary people who can afford to buy them.

But these luxury brands and luxury products are also something people are willing and struggling to pay big money to own, in order to win themselves a place in the perceived club of prestige and exclusivity.

Luxury items always give less for more cost, while non-luxury items always give more for less cost.

Using what premium sedans one can buy for ~$40K as an example. This includes the TL, A4, 3-series, IS, C-class sedans. In fact, these sedans are almost always lumped together under the same vehicle price class for comparisons and tests.

Although these 5 sedans are similar in price, the TL is considerably larger in size than the other 4. What this means is that the TL is giving buyers more for less cost, whereas the A4, 3-series, IS, and C-class are giving buyers less for more cost.

As a result, the A4, 3-series, IS, and C-class sedans are deemed more luxury or more premium.

Acura can too start pricing the smaller-sized TSX at $40K to compete in this $40K premium sedan arena, in order to break it's "giving more for less cost" dilemma. But it is highly doubtful that many will buy the resulting $40K Acura TSX.

Life is this simple. It is what it is. The Acura brand has never been a recognized true luxury auto brand, and thus it's products are also be perceived as such.

SeismicGuy

Everything makes sense except for the last paragraph. I seem to recall that Acura actually tried marketing into the "luxury" market a couple of years before Lexus and I also seem to recall that the Legend was very pricey for the time. So they had a jump on Toyota/Lexus but couldn't cash in on it. Lexus on the other hand was also somewhat expensive when the LS400 was introduced but I recall that the $35K price was viewed as a bargain.

Over the years Lexus has done a better job of hammering the perception that it is in the luxury segment but I still don't believe the luxury crowd views Lexus in the same way they view BMW or Mercedes. Even less folks consider Acura as luxury.

George Knighton

I thought that my next Acura was going to be the RLX.

But having looked at them now, and seeing that the conventional automatic FWD car is stickered as much as $61,000, I am not sure I'm going to want to pay what the hybrid SH-AWD version with the automated manual is going to go for.

It's gotta be 80,000...maybe even 100,000 if it has different options.

:shudder:

I'll wait and see. Maybe the RLX hits a home run. A Honda AWD with automated manual and 360 HP or more...maybe. We'll see.

If it doesn't work for me, then I'll be waiting for the TLX.

But they could make so many mistakes with it. No 6-6 SH-AWD version, for example. What if they won't give it the automated manual and just give it a 6 speed conventional automatic?

Based on the new McPherson Accord as it must be...what if it doesn't have enough knee room for me? Or head room? My track partner who's 6'4" can't get situated right in the new Accord, and that's something I'm worried about.

We'll see, I guess. We'll see.

Devil Dog 21

Does anyone think that the re-emergence of the NSX will help contribute to Acura becoming a full blown luxury brand?

Most of the ones we are comparing to such as Audi, BMW, Mercedes, and Lexus all have a $100k+ premium sports car. Most of your non-luxury brands do not.