Audi Quattro Ultra
02-18-2016, 07:10 PM
#1
Suzuka Master
Thread Starter
Audi Quattro Ultra
New Audi quattro ultra four-wheel drive system detailed | Autocar
So looks like Audi is making Quattro more like SH-AWD less the torque vectoring. Although torque vectoring will be available on the Sports Differential. Seems dissapointing. I came back to Acura from a Quattro A6 and while there was no torque vectoring I loved Quattro. Loved the even feel of all wheels pulling the car evenly. I like SH-AWD, but you clearly feel the front drive pull. I hope that Audi allows the old 40/60 full time split in a sport mode otherwise not sure I would ever go back.
So looks like Audi is making Quattro more like SH-AWD less the torque vectoring. Although torque vectoring will be available on the Sports Differential. Seems dissapointing. I came back to Acura from a Quattro A6 and while there was no torque vectoring I loved Quattro. Loved the even feel of all wheels pulling the car evenly. I like SH-AWD, but you clearly feel the front drive pull. I hope that Audi allows the old 40/60 full time split in a sport mode otherwise not sure I would ever go back.
02-19-2016, 02:58 PM
#2
6G TLX-S
Unfortunately, Acura is also not adding SH-AWD to more of its vehicles, but instead, moving in the opposite direction by removing SH-AWD from more and more of its Acura vehicles.
The SH-AWD RL has become predominately FWD RLX, the removal of SH-AWD from entry-level MDX, as well as the downgrade of AWD RDX from SH-AWD to a low-tech conventional AWD system.
The SH-AWD RL has become predominately FWD RLX, the removal of SH-AWD from entry-level MDX, as well as the downgrade of AWD RDX from SH-AWD to a low-tech conventional AWD system.
02-19-2016, 05:07 PM
#3
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It really depends on how you see it...for me...the only time the SH-AWD is removed is the RDX, which is a shame. The MDX, Acura is simply listening to the demand of its customers.
And RLX? There's an upgraded SH-AWD system for customers.....again....listening to the demand that not everyone needs/wants AWD.
And RLX? There's an upgraded SH-AWD system for customers.....again....listening to the demand that not everyone needs/wants AWD.
02-21-2016, 07:39 AM
#4
Banned
I like SH-AWD, but you clearly feel the front drive pull.
02-21-2016, 05:10 PM
#5
6G TLX-S
It really depends on how you see it...for me...the only time the SH-AWD is removed is the RDX, which is a shame. The MDX, Acura is simply listening to the demand of its customers.
And RLX? There's an upgraded SH-AWD system for customers.....again....listening to the demand that not everyone needs/wants AWD.
And RLX? There's an upgraded SH-AWD system for customers.....again....listening to the demand that not everyone needs/wants AWD.
Now the Honda Pilot's are selling like hotcakes, while the MDX sale continues to decline.
As for the RLX, so Acura listened, and Acura removed the standard SH-AWD. But the FWD RLX still tanks.
Not only that no one wants AWD, now no one wants a FWD RLX either.
Looks like Acura should fire the entire marketing research team.
What good is Acura without the "ADVANCED" SH-AWD ?
The SH-AWD is what sets apart the premium Acura brand and the lowly economy Honda brand.
Otherwise, FWD Acura vehicles are just another glorified economy-branded Honda.
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silverTL6 (02-21-2016)
02-21-2016, 08:00 PM
#6
Banned
Thank you for entertaining useless clichés.
I wanted a TLX, after two BMWs. I didn't want *another Accord*, and I bought two of them. Not related to 2WD or AWD.. I would have taken my 2016 Acura V6 FWD, given a choice (Canada).
Last edited by Saintor; 02-21-2016 at 08:02 PM.
02-22-2016, 10:23 AM
#7
Registered Abuser of VTEC
New Audi quattro ultra four-wheel drive system detailed | Autocar
So looks like Audi is making Quattro more like SH-AWD less the torque vectoring. Although torque vectoring will be available on the Sports Differential. Seems dissapointing. I came back to Acura from a Quattro A6 and while there was no torque vectoring I loved Quattro. Loved the even feel of all wheels pulling the car evenly. I like SH-AWD, but you clearly feel the front drive pull. I hope that Audi allows the old 40/60 full time split in a sport mode otherwise not sure I would ever go back.
So looks like Audi is making Quattro more like SH-AWD less the torque vectoring. Although torque vectoring will be available on the Sports Differential. Seems dissapointing. I came back to Acura from a Quattro A6 and while there was no torque vectoring I loved Quattro. Loved the even feel of all wheels pulling the car evenly. I like SH-AWD, but you clearly feel the front drive pull. I hope that Audi allows the old 40/60 full time split in a sport mode otherwise not sure I would ever go back.
I think manufacturers such as Audi are realizing that having a 25% split to each wheel isn't necessary and hurts fuel economy more than it should, while not providing any actual performance advantage unless you're rally driving.
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02-22-2016, 01:28 PM
#8
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Good job, Acura, by "listening to the demand of its customers" of removing SH-AWD from the entry-level MDX.
Now the Honda Pilot's are selling like hotcakes, while the MDX sale continues to decline.
As for the RLX, so Acura listened, and Acura removed the standard SH-AWD. But the FWD RLX still tanks.
Not only that no one wants AWD, now no one wants a FWD RLX either.
Looks like Acura should fire the entire marketing research team.
What good is Acura without the "ADVANCED" SH-AWD ?
The SH-AWD is what sets apart the premium Acura brand and the lowly economy Honda brand.
Otherwise, FWD Acura vehicles are just another glorified economy-branded Honda.
Now the Honda Pilot's are selling like hotcakes, while the MDX sale continues to decline.
As for the RLX, so Acura listened, and Acura removed the standard SH-AWD. But the FWD RLX still tanks.
Not only that no one wants AWD, now no one wants a FWD RLX either.
Looks like Acura should fire the entire marketing research team.
What good is Acura without the "ADVANCED" SH-AWD ?
The SH-AWD is what sets apart the premium Acura brand and the lowly economy Honda brand.
Otherwise, FWD Acura vehicles are just another glorified economy-branded Honda.
I mean, I can't go and say, Acura added SH-AWD to the 4G TL, and the sales dropped a whole lot compared to 3G TL, therefore SH-AWD is useless.
02-23-2016, 12:16 AM
#9
6G TLX-S
If there was no SH-AWD for the 4G TL, the 4G TL would have ended up the same fate as the as the failed Acura flagship car RLX.
02-23-2016, 01:46 AM
#10
My fwd acura beats c7 corvettes, lotus Elise and exiges, porsche cayman and boxsters, etc etc with only 315 measly horsepower at autocross and track events.
Good thing my car isn't awd or rwd or it would be slower.
Good thing my car isn't awd or rwd or it would be slower.
02-23-2016, 01:48 AM
#11
02-23-2016, 07:36 AM
#12
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youngTL (02-23-2016)
02-23-2016, 10:22 AM
#13
One interesting point is that Audi is adamant that there be zero change in handling characteristics with the new system but that it would increase MPG
02-23-2016, 10:27 AM
#14
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Agree. A large number of 3G owners who were happy with their time in the TL & ready to move to the new car were put off by its styling. This was reinforced by the motoring press who in polite terms said it was Fugly. Since the pricing was also up this caused people to look more broadly at what was available.
I went with the 335is but the 4G also sold quite a few Audis, Lexus & Infinities to former 3G owners.
I went with the 335is but the 4G also sold quite a few Audis, Lexus & Infinities to former 3G owners.
02-23-2016, 10:35 AM
#15
To get off topic - and on the off topic, SH-AWD was one of the identifying features of the upscale Acura.
What set the Acura apart from the Honda? Hondas often had slightly newer tech but Acura had better fit and finish and a few pieces of tech that nobody else had - like that SH-AWD.
Hondas fit and finish for the most part improved while Acura's has stayed the same. The RDX differentiated itself from the CR-V by the drive system - that went away with the second generation.
The RL was pretty neat when it came out in 2005, but sat still until RLX. By that time it was a non player and Acura decided that since all of the luxury cars were heading to AWD, they'd buck the trend and go FWD. They didn't learn from the Accord hybrid that the term hybrid must go hand in hand with "outstanding MPG" so they made the flagship RLX a hybrid SH-AWD. Does anybody buy the RLX AWD for its hybrid'ness? Of course not.
The Europeans run rings around Acura when it comes to safety features. Mercedes and Volvo have had adaptive cruise with true collision avoidance (not mitigation) for years now. the only advantage that Acura has these days is a few generation old tech with increased reliability over the Europeans.
What set the Acura apart from the Honda? Hondas often had slightly newer tech but Acura had better fit and finish and a few pieces of tech that nobody else had - like that SH-AWD.
Hondas fit and finish for the most part improved while Acura's has stayed the same. The RDX differentiated itself from the CR-V by the drive system - that went away with the second generation.
The RL was pretty neat when it came out in 2005, but sat still until RLX. By that time it was a non player and Acura decided that since all of the luxury cars were heading to AWD, they'd buck the trend and go FWD. They didn't learn from the Accord hybrid that the term hybrid must go hand in hand with "outstanding MPG" so they made the flagship RLX a hybrid SH-AWD. Does anybody buy the RLX AWD for its hybrid'ness? Of course not.
The Europeans run rings around Acura when it comes to safety features. Mercedes and Volvo have had adaptive cruise with true collision avoidance (not mitigation) for years now. the only advantage that Acura has these days is a few generation old tech with increased reliability over the Europeans.
02-23-2016, 10:38 AM
#16
Agree. A large number of 3G owners who were happy with their time in the TL & ready to move to the new car were put off by its styling. This was reinforced by the motoring press who in polite terms said it was Fugly. Since the pricing was also up this caused people to look more broadly at what was available.
I went with the 335is but the 4G also sold quite a few Audis, Lexus & Infinities to former 3G owners.
I went with the 335is but the 4G also sold quite a few Audis, Lexus & Infinities to former 3G owners.
I'm not sure what manufacturers are thinking - "let's see if we can drive existing loyal customers away by creating polarizing styling in order to suck in a few millenials that don't really want cars anyway."
02-23-2016, 02:00 PM
#18
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And today the polarizing Lexus styling is driving many customers to Acura.
I'm not sure what manufacturers are thinking - "let's see if we can drive existing loyal customers away by creating polarizing styling in order to suck in a few millenials that don't really want cars anyway."
I'm not sure what manufacturers are thinking - "let's see if we can drive existing loyal customers away by creating polarizing styling in order to suck in a few millenials that don't really want cars anyway."
You can't say enough about styling in selling cars. Its very hard to sell an avant–garde styled product into the mainstream car market. This is a old as the majors starting to produce cars nicer looking than a Model T.
Harvey Earl made GM the biggest car company in the world on design. He figured out very early that if people liked what they saw they would buy it.
He also figured out if he changed it year to year people would want the new LOOK & keep buying. This is despite that what was underneath the skin was pretty much unchanged year to year. (Planned Obsolescence)
The 1934 Chrysler & DeSoto Airflow is a good example. The car had a lot of features that would appear on GM & Ford cars 10-15 years later. Porsche bought one & copied a lot of its design when he created the VW beetle right down to the split back windows.
Problem with Airflow was it looked very different from the cars of its day & people did not like that. Car was killed by Chrysler in 1937
Last edited by BEAR-AvHistory; 02-23-2016 at 02:03 PM.
02-23-2016, 06:05 PM
#19
6G TLX-S
SH-AWD wasn't available to the TL vehicle line until the 4th generation.
Acura had no choice but to make available SH-AWD to the 4G TL, because, at that period in time, all other direct competitors (3-series, C-class, Infiniti G, Lexus IS) were having AWD as an upgrade option.
Had it been no SH-AWD, the 4G TL would have met the same fate as the failed RLX, due to the 4G TL's highly questionable front end styling.
What is bad for the Acura brand reputation is to give the Acura-proud SH-AWD to a vehicle, then strip it away afterwards, such as the SH-AWD RLX -> FWD RLX, FWD MDX, and non-SH AWD RDX.
After all, it was the advent of the torque-vectoring SH-AWD that helps boosting the Acura brand name.
02-23-2016, 09:34 PM
#20
Registered Abuser of VTEC
My logic isn't flawed.
SH-AWD wasn't available to the TL vehicle line until the 4th generation.
Acura had no choice but to make available SH-AWD to the 4G TL, because, at that period in time, all other direct competitors (3-series, C-class, Infiniti G, Lexus IS) were having AWD as an upgrade option.
Had it been no SH-AWD, the 4G TL would have met the same fate as the failed RLX, due to the 4G TL's highly questionable front end styling.
What is bad for the Acura brand reputation is to give the Acura-proud SH-AWD to a vehicle, then strip it away afterwards, such as the SH-AWD RLX -> FWD RLX, FWD MDX, and non-SH AWD RDX.
After all, it was the advent of the torque-vectoring SH-AWD that helps boosting the Acura brand name.
SH-AWD wasn't available to the TL vehicle line until the 4th generation.
Acura had no choice but to make available SH-AWD to the 4G TL, because, at that period in time, all other direct competitors (3-series, C-class, Infiniti G, Lexus IS) were having AWD as an upgrade option.
Had it been no SH-AWD, the 4G TL would have met the same fate as the failed RLX, due to the 4G TL's highly questionable front end styling.
What is bad for the Acura brand reputation is to give the Acura-proud SH-AWD to a vehicle, then strip it away afterwards, such as the SH-AWD RLX -> FWD RLX, FWD MDX, and non-SH AWD RDX.
After all, it was the advent of the torque-vectoring SH-AWD that helps boosting the Acura brand name.
Why would Acura be cutting FWD models then? Here, they've already completely removed the FWD versions of the RLX, RDX, MDX, and the V6 TLX. Only the I4 TLX and the ILX are available in FWD. Granted, the RX isn't SH-AWD, just plain jane AWD, but my point stands.
02-23-2016, 10:08 PM
#21
Racer
My logic isn't flawed.
SH-AWD wasn't available to the TL vehicle line until the 4th generation.
Acura had no choice but to make available SH-AWD to the 4G TL, because, at that period in time, all other direct competitors (3-series, C-class, Infiniti G, Lexus IS) were having AWD as an upgrade option.
Had it been no SH-AWD, the 4G TL would have met the same fate as the failed RLX, due to the 4G TL's highly questionable front end styling.
What is bad for the Acura brand reputation is to give the Acura-proud SH-AWD to a vehicle, then strip it away afterwards, such as the SH-AWD RLX -> FWD RLX, FWD MDX, and non-SH AWD RDX.
After all, it was the advent of the torque-vectoring SH-AWD that helps boosting the Acura brand name.
SH-AWD wasn't available to the TL vehicle line until the 4th generation.
Acura had no choice but to make available SH-AWD to the 4G TL, because, at that period in time, all other direct competitors (3-series, C-class, Infiniti G, Lexus IS) were having AWD as an upgrade option.
Had it been no SH-AWD, the 4G TL would have met the same fate as the failed RLX, due to the 4G TL's highly questionable front end styling.
What is bad for the Acura brand reputation is to give the Acura-proud SH-AWD to a vehicle, then strip it away afterwards, such as the SH-AWD RLX -> FWD RLX, FWD MDX, and non-SH AWD RDX.
After all, it was the advent of the torque-vectoring SH-AWD that helps boosting the Acura brand name.
02-25-2016, 12:46 AM
#22
6G TLX-S
^^^^^
This is all about image.
Likewise, Audi doesn't sell too many S4/RS4, BMW doesn't sell too many M3, Lexus doesn't sell too many IS-F, and MB doesn't see too many C63-AMG, either.
But these automakers keep building them, for only one reason - to boost the model (and brand) image.
Their existence is solely to attract more buyers by promoting to those large % of lower-model-trim buyers what their chosen vehicles are ultimately capable of in performance.
In the same way, the SH-AWD is an effective marketing tool to boost the image of the AWD TL.
This is all about image.
Likewise, Audi doesn't sell too many S4/RS4, BMW doesn't sell too many M3, Lexus doesn't sell too many IS-F, and MB doesn't see too many C63-AMG, either.
But these automakers keep building them, for only one reason - to boost the model (and brand) image.
Their existence is solely to attract more buyers by promoting to those large % of lower-model-trim buyers what their chosen vehicles are ultimately capable of in performance.
In the same way, the SH-AWD is an effective marketing tool to boost the image of the AWD TL.
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TacoBello (02-25-2016)
02-25-2016, 04:24 PM
#23
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ya so that's why I don't think there's much wrong with having non SH-AWD trims as an option (i.e. MDX)...just like how Audi has non quattro models for its A3, A4, and A6.
02-25-2016, 11:27 PM
#25
Racer
^^^^^
This is all about image.
Likewise, Audi doesn't sell too many S4/RS4, BMW doesn't sell too many M3, Lexus doesn't sell too many IS-F, and MB doesn't see too many C63-AMG, either.
But these automakers keep building them, for only one reason - to boost the model (and brand) image.
Their existence is solely to attract more buyers by promoting to those large % of lower-model-trim buyers what their chosen vehicles are ultimately capable of in performance.
In the same way, the SH-AWD is an effective marketing tool to boost the image of the AWD TL.
This is all about image.
Likewise, Audi doesn't sell too many S4/RS4, BMW doesn't sell too many M3, Lexus doesn't sell too many IS-F, and MB doesn't see too many C63-AMG, either.
But these automakers keep building them, for only one reason - to boost the model (and brand) image.
Their existence is solely to attract more buyers by promoting to those large % of lower-model-trim buyers what their chosen vehicles are ultimately capable of in performance.
In the same way, the SH-AWD is an effective marketing tool to boost the image of the AWD TL.
02-25-2016, 11:51 PM
#26
Team Owner
Well they keep the AMG, BMW M, Audi S, etc lines to bring in the enthusiast customers who like performance. The 4G TL SH-AWD was for the "enthusiast" type or someone who wanted AWD. If they didn't offer AWD on the 4G, all they had to do was slap some better wheels on the FWD model and it would've been just as good of a "marketing tool" as the AWD model.
02-27-2016, 01:46 AM
#28
6G TLX-S
Well they keep the AMG, BMW M, Audi S, etc lines to bring in the enthusiast customers who like performance. The 4G TL SH-AWD was for the "enthusiast" type or someone who wanted AWD. If they didn't offer AWD on the 4G, all they had to do was slap some better wheels on the FWD model and it would've been just as good of a "marketing tool" as the AWD model.
But why not a high-performance FWD 4G TL ?
The reason is simple. High performance cars must have lots of hp. But the problem with FWD is that FWD and massive hp don't mix. The hp limit for FWD Honda cars, at that time, was ~290hp.
Above that hp limit, the high-power FWD car will handle like crap; unlike RWD cars that can still handle well even with massive hp.
So, for the 305hp high-performance 4G TL, it had to be paired with AWD mechanics.
Thus the 3.7L-V6 SH-AWD TL became the high-tech, high-performance "marketing tool" for the Acura 4G TL family line.
02-27-2016, 02:02 AM
#29
6G TLX-S
Audi has been offering Quattro AWD as an upgrade options for almost ALL of its vehicle lines, since DAY 1.
However, Acura first equipped the RL/MDX with SH-AWD as standard equipment, and also first equipped the AWD RDX with SH-AWD; then in later model generations, downgrades to the FWD RLX/MDX with optional SH-AWD, and also downgrades to the AWD RDX with conventional AWD.
This seems like Acura is shying away from the brand-famous SH-AWD by trying to sell more Acura vehicles without SH-AWD, rather than embracing the brand-famous SH-AWD by putting more SH-AWD into more vehicle models and selling more Acura vehicle with SH-AWD; which is a big shame.
On the contrary, Audi/BMW/MB are continuing to add their optional AWD systems to more and more of their model lines.
02-28-2016, 11:47 AM
#30
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What BMW is finding is the additional traction of the 4X4 has now well offset its weight. If you look at the published specs on the BMWUSA site you will see all the AWD cars quicker than the 2 wheels drive version.
A side note when I was legally drag racing the 335is it was standard procedure for all the 7DCT & full AT's to start in 2nd gear because the torque would hit too hard in 1st & spin the tire well into 2nd gear.
A side note when I was legally drag racing the 335is it was standard procedure for all the 7DCT & full AT's to start in 2nd gear because the torque would hit too hard in 1st & spin the tire well into 2nd gear.
02-29-2016, 01:12 PM
#31
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The issue at hand is that first you give it, then you take it away.
Audi has been offering Quattro AWD as an upgrade options for almost ALL of its vehicle lines, since DAY 1.
However, Acura first equipped the RL/MDX with SH-AWD as standard equipment, and also first equipped the AWD RDX with SH-AWD; then in later model generations, downgrades to the FWD RLX/MDX with optional SH-AWD, and also downgrades to the AWD RDX with conventional AWD.
This seems like Acura is shying away from the brand-famous SH-AWD by trying to sell more Acura vehicles without SH-AWD, rather than embracing the brand-famous SH-AWD by putting more SH-AWD into more vehicle models and selling more Acura vehicle with SH-AWD; which is a big shame.
On the contrary, Audi/BMW/MB are continuing to add their optional AWD systems to more and more of their model lines.
Audi has been offering Quattro AWD as an upgrade options for almost ALL of its vehicle lines, since DAY 1.
However, Acura first equipped the RL/MDX with SH-AWD as standard equipment, and also first equipped the AWD RDX with SH-AWD; then in later model generations, downgrades to the FWD RLX/MDX with optional SH-AWD, and also downgrades to the AWD RDX with conventional AWD.
This seems like Acura is shying away from the brand-famous SH-AWD by trying to sell more Acura vehicles without SH-AWD, rather than embracing the brand-famous SH-AWD by putting more SH-AWD into more vehicle models and selling more Acura vehicle with SH-AWD; which is a big shame.
On the contrary, Audi/BMW/MB are continuing to add their optional AWD systems to more and more of their model lines.
"the only time the SH-AWD is removed is the RDX, which is a shame."
For the likes of MDX and RLX, I said, it depends on HOW you see it. You obviously see this in a more negative way so that's really the end of it. The way I seee it is that they now offer a FWD option, while either keeping MDX available, or have an even better SH-AWD system as an option.
Right, Audi and MB are adding AWD to more models. Last I checked, 5 out of 6 Acura models also have AWD. Correct me if I'm wrong please. Is is that bad?
FYI, Quattro is now a marketing term now, rather than to describe the original Quattro system which is a torsen type system. Nowadays, some quattro systems are just simple vicsous coupling type or haldex type. Nothing wrong with that. But just imagine Acura calling the RDX's system SH-AWD when it doesn't have that torque vectoring capability anymore...lol
Last edited by iforyou; 02-29-2016 at 01:18 PM.
02-29-2016, 05:48 PM
#32
...except that the TLX is not selling any better than the TL+TSX it replaces....in a much better economy...
The new Maxima (which I consider the TL heir when it comes to unique styling) is selling rather well.....
The Predator mouth of the new Lexuses is not damaging that brand sales either...
02-29-2016, 07:28 PM
#33
But then there were a good number who were not... Guys who had transmission trouble in the automatics. Guys who had trouble with the manuals and went the dealer route instead of the awesome GM juice. Those without Navi's who got trashed all the time on the forum. "Enthusiasts" who had the 2006 model when the Type S hit the street and everything before was trashed on the forum. Not a lot of post purchase satisfaction having a 2006 non-Navi next to a 2007 TL Type S.
02-29-2016, 07:34 PM
#34
03-01-2016, 11:44 AM
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03-01-2016, 02:05 PM
#36
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But then there were a good number who were not... Guys who had transmission trouble in the automatics. Guys who had trouble with the manuals and went the dealer route instead of the awesome GM juice. Those without Navi's who got trashed all the time on the forum. "Enthusiasts" who had the 2006 model when the Type S hit the street and everything before was trashed on the forum. Not a lot of post purchase satisfaction having a 2006 non-Navi next to a 2007 TL Type S.
Was told by the S types I was just jealous & went for the "base" because I could not afford the extra $3K for a Type-S. Was a time of very high diesel fuel costs.
They got all bent out of shape when I wrote back that the spread between my car & a type S would refuel my boat, 400 gallons, just about two times.
But yes I do remember the craziness from the big spenders who went for the type S
Last edited by BEAR-AvHistory; 03-01-2016 at 02:07 PM.
03-01-2016, 02:16 PM
#37
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...except that the TLX is not selling any better than the TL+TSX it replaces....in a much better economy...
The new Maxima (which I consider the TL heir when it comes to unique styling) is selling rather well.....
The Predator mouth of the new Lexuses is not damaging that brand sales either...
The new Maxima (which I consider the TL heir when it comes to unique styling) is selling rather well.....
The Predator mouth of the new Lexuses is not damaging that brand sales either...
Nissan does fleet sales for the Maxima (I actually rented one in my recent trip). Don't think that's the case for the TLX. I also believe the Maxima has a price advantage (roughly 10% trim vs trim).
03-01-2016, 06:49 PM
#38
Suzuka Master
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...except that the TLX is not selling any better than the TL+TSX it replaces....in a much better economy...
The new Maxima (which I consider the TL heir when it comes to unique styling) is selling rather well.....
The Predator mouth of the new Lexuses is not damaging that brand sales either...
The new Maxima (which I consider the TL heir when it comes to unique styling) is selling rather well.....
The Predator mouth of the new Lexuses is not damaging that brand sales either...