Carbon Fiber/light weight driveshaft
01-25-2011, 06:51 PM
#1
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
Carbon Fiber/light weight driveshaft
Does anyone know of a company working on a lightweight / carbon fiber driveshaft for the SH-AWD? This would be a great performance part, and if a company like PST backed it we could be assured of it's quality.
The main purpose of this thread is to discuss the benefits / advantages of a lighter driveshaft over the OEM.
Discuss.
(http://www.pstds.com/index.htm)
The main purpose of this thread is to discuss the benefits / advantages of a lighter driveshaft over the OEM.
Discuss.
(http://www.pstds.com/index.htm)
01-25-2011, 07:05 PM
#3
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
Another thing to keep in mind... the OEM driveshaft will be a weak link when we start pushing the power envelope with the SC - and soon enough with a turbo.
From what I've read the rotational mass savings won't come into play as much as downgrading from your heavy 20"s to lightweight 18"s - but you will see a difference.
Another thing to keep in mind in the quest for power - finding the weakest link. In this case the OEM shafts are bound to give at some point. The stronger driveshafts along with the possibility of a lightweight CF one could be very beneficial. Imagine the carnage of a steel driveshaft tears apart underneath vs a CF one... I'll take door the CF one please.
From what I've read the rotational mass savings won't come into play as much as downgrading from your heavy 20"s to lightweight 18"s - but you will see a difference.
Another thing to keep in mind in the quest for power - finding the weakest link. In this case the OEM shafts are bound to give at some point. The stronger driveshafts along with the possibility of a lightweight CF one could be very beneficial. Imagine the carnage of a steel driveshaft tears apart underneath vs a CF one... I'll take door the CF one please.
01-25-2011, 07:40 PM
#4
Racer
I do recall a driveshaft company that does make them, but I don't remember it on the top of my head, they made one for the S2000
This would be very interesting, trying to save weight as much as possible without sacrificing relibility
This would be very interesting, trying to save weight as much as possible without sacrificing relibility
01-25-2011, 07:48 PM
#5
The Sicilian
I know it works on Muscle cars. I put an aluminum drive shaft on my Mustang.
Maybe you can call these guys and they may be able to tell you who would make one for the Acura or they would custom make one for you.
Good idea, keep us posted and let us know what you find out.
http://www.dennysdriveshaft.com/
Maybe you can call these guys and they may be able to tell you who would make one for the Acura or they would custom make one for you.
Good idea, keep us posted and let us know what you find out.
http://www.dennysdriveshaft.com/
01-25-2011, 08:02 PM
#6
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
Bingo!
Mark Williams Enterprises makes the driveshaft for the S2000
http://www.markwilliams.com/custom.aspx
Some more good technical information:
http://www.torqline.com/product_detail_7.php
The RL's driveshaft can be ruled out as a possible swap, even though its carbon fiber. The yokes won't match, nor would the lengths of the shafts be the same due to the RL's "acceleration device".
Time to start contacting company's and garnering interest.
Mark Williams Enterprises makes the driveshaft for the S2000
http://www.markwilliams.com/custom.aspx
Some more good technical information:
Critical Speed
Critical speed is the speed at which a spinning shaft will become unstable. This is one of the single largest factors in driveshaft selection. When the whirling frequency and the natural frequency coincide, any vibrations will be multiplied. So much that the shaft may self destruct. Another way to think of this is that if a shaft naturally vibrates at 130 times a second, and one point on the shaft passes through 0 degrees 130 times a second (7800 RPM) then the shaft has hit a critical speed. There are several ways to raise the critical speed of a driveshaft. You can make it lighter, stiffer, or increase diameter without increasing weight. This is the reason carbon fiber makes a good driveshaft, it is stiff and light and can be made to any diameter or wall thickness. Aluminum, while it has a very good critical speed is not quite as strong as steel. Steel, with good strength characteristics will have a lower critical speed.
Another S2000 product:Critical speed is the speed at which a spinning shaft will become unstable. This is one of the single largest factors in driveshaft selection. When the whirling frequency and the natural frequency coincide, any vibrations will be multiplied. So much that the shaft may self destruct. Another way to think of this is that if a shaft naturally vibrates at 130 times a second, and one point on the shaft passes through 0 degrees 130 times a second (7800 RPM) then the shaft has hit a critical speed. There are several ways to raise the critical speed of a driveshaft. You can make it lighter, stiffer, or increase diameter without increasing weight. This is the reason carbon fiber makes a good driveshaft, it is stiff and light and can be made to any diameter or wall thickness. Aluminum, while it has a very good critical speed is not quite as strong as steel. Steel, with good strength characteristics will have a lower critical speed.
http://www.torqline.com/product_detail_7.php
The RL's driveshaft can be ruled out as a possible swap, even though its carbon fiber. The yokes won't match, nor would the lengths of the shafts be the same due to the RL's "acceleration device".
Time to start contacting company's and garnering interest.
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01-28-2011, 08:58 AM
#8
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
Contacted TORQline and PST... awaiting an email / follow up phone call...
Also dropped a hint with CT-E... but doubt if they'd take on this project.
Also dropped a hint with CT-E... but doubt if they'd take on this project.
01-28-2011, 11:44 AM
#9
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
Got a response back from PST 
So -- since the weather is pretty crappy out for us guys in the MW and NE, can anyone take any good pictures of the underbelly of the SH-AWD from front to back. Measurements would be great as well.
Let's get this project rolling!
Justin,
We are always looking for new things to do. If you could send some pictures of the shaft, installed in the vehicle, we can determine what would be available in a lighter shaft. Right now we have a lot on our plate, as far as new product development. If it is a good project we should be able to develop something by the end of March or first of April.
I will look for the pics and future correspondence.
Thank You
Mark Veldhuis
Product Development Director
We are always looking for new things to do. If you could send some pictures of the shaft, installed in the vehicle, we can determine what would be available in a lighter shaft. Right now we have a lot on our plate, as far as new product development. If it is a good project we should be able to develop something by the end of March or first of April.
I will look for the pics and future correspondence.
Thank You
Mark Veldhuis
Product Development Director
Let's get this project rolling!
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Rancher2005 (07-15-2017)
01-28-2011, 12:28 PM
#11
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
02-23-2011, 10:15 PM
#12
Intermediate
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I don't know how true it is or if anyone can back this up, but my Dad raced for years. I remember him saying that every 1lb of rotating weight was equal to 6lbs of static weight. I think this rule applied to fly wheels in a v8. Because the diameter of the drive shaft isn't that of a flywheel, I doubt the same thought would apply. There's probably some kind of formula like "for each lb of rotating weight from center at X rpm = x lbs of static weight" or some variation thereof. After a little google search, I found this: http://premium.nascar.com/2001/TECH/...ack/index.html
I guess there might be some truth to all this...
I guess there might be some truth to all this...
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HeartTLs (07-14-2017)
07-13-2017, 11:31 AM
#14
Intermediate
IMO, this alone would increase WHP significantly.
07-13-2017, 11:52 AM
#15
Team Owner
Significantly? No. It will reduce your drive train losses, for sure, but... what are the losses right now? If the car puts out 305hp at the crank, what does it put down to the wheels? Let's say you normally get 255hp to the wheels... the light weight driveshaft might get you to 265hp. Keep in mind it's the transmission and differentials that cause the greatest losses. The driveshaft is but a small piece of the puzzle.
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Jerry"O" (03-29-2018)
07-13-2017, 01:04 PM
#17
Interesting. On our cars, the terms "driveshaft" and "propeller shaft" are interchangeable - correct? What I'm getting at: if we have 'the whine' and changed the propeller shaft w/ the failing bearing for a CF driveshaft... two birds with one stone?
07-13-2017, 01:05 PM
#18
Intermediate
I've e-mailed Mark at Precision Shaft Technologies (http://pstds.com) so let's see what he says
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HeartTLs (07-14-2017)
07-13-2017, 01:32 PM
#19
Intermediate
Significantly? No. It will reduce your drive train losses, for sure, but... what are the losses right now? If the car puts out 305hp at the crank, what does it put down to the wheels? Let's say you normally get 255hp to the wheels... the light weight driveshaft might get you to 265hp. Keep in mind it's the transmission and differentials that cause the greatest losses. The driveshaft is but a small piece of the puzzle.
Most stock dynos show about 230whp. That is about a 25% parasitic loss if the car is outputting as advertised. It remains to be seen what a light weight shaft can do, but lets just say you gain 2% which is pretty reasonable. If you can gain back 2% that would put near 235whp which is not really impressive and why it would be a very good first mod to perform.
Looking at most dynos for Jpipe + HFPC (or PCD) + custom tune seem to top out at 270-275 whp. That would be about 360hp at crank using the 25% loss. Applying the same 2% gain from the lightweight shaft that would put 275-281 whp.
The HP increase is nice, buy IMO the main benefit is it would likely weigh 15-20 lbs lighter than the OEM shafts. Need to put these portly cars on a diet by any means necessary.
One other thing to think about is how it could potentially effect the torque vectoring.
Last edited by RailTester; 07-13-2017 at 01:41 PM.
07-14-2017, 01:32 PM
#20
Just heard back from one place (The Driveshaft Shop sales@driveshaftshop.com) regarding the custom driveshaft and they want to know the following:
"I would need a flange to flange length measurement and flange bolt pattern measurements to see if it is something we can do."
Anyone here have these measurements?
"I would need a flange to flange length measurement and flange bolt pattern measurements to see if it is something we can do."
Anyone here have these measurements?
07-14-2017, 01:50 PM
#21
If it's Part Number 40100-TK5-A03 there are a few possibly helpful pictures that show up in Google searches...
https://www.acurapartswarehouse.com/...0-tk5-a03.html
2009-2014 Acura TL Rear Drive Shaft #1828076 | eBay
https://www.acurapartswarehouse.com/...0-tk5-a03.html
2009-2014 Acura TL Rear Drive Shaft #1828076 | eBay
07-14-2017, 04:15 PM
#25
I was just trying to help. It sorta shows the pattern on the flanges (not the exact measurements, I understand). And the eBay pic shows a rough length of say 87-88". I know you can't fabricate from this, but MAYBE it's enough for him to say 'possibly' or 'no way'.
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07-17-2017, 11:08 PM
#31
The aluminum cup has an ID of approximately 68.25mm. The bolt hole centers are equidistant at 76.2mm. Not sure of the bolt hole diameter but this can be closely determined from the bolt spec. .
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07-17-2017, 11:18 PM
#32
Rear "cup" protrudes maybe 1/8" from the flange, so I measured the OD at 55.56mm. The bolt holes are equidistant (left to right and top to bottom - not diagonally) and approximately 70mm center to center.
Last edited by Rancher2005; 07-17-2017 at 11:28 PM. Reason: clarify dimension
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07-17-2017, 11:50 PM
#33
There are (2) U-Joints. My dimensions are to the U-joint centers. One is marked 819mm from front flange and the other is marked 38mm from the rear flange. In addition there are two CV joints I believe, but somewhat enclosed. The first enclosure ends at 108mm from the front and the 2nd is 787mm from the rear (38mm +747mm). The 25mm dimension is the shaft that I can see of the 2nd cv joint. U-joints and CV joints alternate. From front to rear it is - CV joint -> U-Joint -> CV joint -> U-joint.
Please note all dimensions are roughly taken with a tape measure. No CMM unfortunately but let me know if you need any other info. I'd also consider shipping this unit with a deposit, I don't know the weight, but maybe the custom shops can estimate what the proposed weight would be?
I'm thinking aluminum would be the most practical, I foresee carbon fiber and low sales volume being astronomical in cost. Most importantly, the bearings need to be silent.
Please note all dimensions are roughly taken with a tape measure. No CMM unfortunately but let me know if you need any other info. I'd also consider shipping this unit with a deposit, I don't know the weight, but maybe the custom shops can estimate what the proposed weight would be?
I'm thinking aluminum would be the most practical, I foresee carbon fiber and low sales volume being astronomical in cost. Most importantly, the bearings need to be silent.
07-17-2017, 11:53 PM
#34
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2snail (07-18-2017)
07-18-2017, 08:45 PM
#39
Latent car nut
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My take here, very little potential.
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TacoBello (07-18-2017)
07-18-2017, 08:53 PM
#40
Intermediate