MurkyRiversTL

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gx48Q...eature=related

MyCarIsntInMyWifesName

Are your headlights smoked?

EDIT: Reading failure.

MurkyRiversTL

^???

MyCarIsntInMyWifesName

Well they looked different than stock and I asked. And then later refreshed my page and noticed your sig.

Great detective work on my part right? Seems to me black is the best color for the new TL.

MurkyRiversTL

Thanks, I was confused by the red (since red is sarcasm) lol.

MyCarIsntInMyWifesName

I like red.

______________________________-

Techno have you mentioned mileage yet? I know you just got it but I didn't read everything.

MurkyRiversTL

lol..... still confused. Do you really like red or is that a hint for sarcasm..... lol/

MyCarIsntInMyWifesName

I really like red. I can't even think of what the sarcasm would be that I'd hint at....(thinking intently)

MurkyRiversTL

^ this thread has gotten so off topic. Funny though.

VTEC Racer

So you've finally decided to post in the 3G forum AFTER 1,200 posts and after I pointed it out a couple weeks ago. Congratulations.

It doesn't bother me that you don't like the direction Acura has gone. There are many people on this forum that criticize Acura, myself included. However, what does bother me and several other people here is your constant and habitual need to make a point of your negative opnion in every other post. One time. Two times. Three times.... How many times do you need to make it known? We all know how to read here. Whatever my "e-life" may be, it's not as boring as your's is considering all it mainly consists of is complaining about Acura. Don't you think it's ironic that you only post in an Acura forum, your main topic of discussion is always about Acura, yet you have no desire to purchase an Acura and are highly critical of most things they do? What is it about Acura that keeps you so attracted yet so critical and negative?

Mature people don't curse. I don't know what your parents taught you or what they probably didn't teach you, but there is never a need to bring yourself down a level by using profanity to get your point across. Maturity will always prevail over profanity.

If you stop rehashing the same old tired comments about Acura, I will leave you alone. However, if you continue to be a troll, then I will continue to call you out on it. If you're going to stick around here even though you have crossed Acura off your list, then be productive and contribute POSITIVELY to the community. Don't be a broken record douche bag. The ball is in your court.

winstrolvtec

I am not touching anything else that is going on here more recently but I do want to point out that while these numbers are correct they are being represented and compared incorrectly.

The Audi percentages are on a YTD basis which is a better indicator as it includes all months from January of the current fiscal year to when they are reported, yet the TL sales being used to arrive at the 9% decline are from only the month of July 09 compared to July 10' sales. That is a single month's sales basis for consecutive years as opposed to the YTD being used for Audi. That same figure used for the A4 shows a 14% decline.

So it's not necessarily "from a year ago", more specifically it's from just July sales of last year compared to July sales this year in both vehicle's cases. I just want to point out that there is a difference.

The TL being indicated as down nearly 30% is actually more like 28% and is from July YTD totals from 08 compared to July YTD totals in 10'. To be fair the A4's results from July 08 YTD totals compared to July YTD totals in 10' shows a decline of about 23%.

http://www.theautochannel.com/news/2...01/095133.html

I agree though, it is pretty silly as I am not sure just what any of this means or how it relates to the topic. The TL and S4 are both great cars IMO just with different purposes and price points. One buys what is better suited for their needs, preferences, and priorities.

compewterbleu

Thank you. thank you. well put.

MyCarIsntInMyWifesName

You're taking credit for me posting in another section? I posted in the TSX, RL, and RDX sections around that time too.

Wow, self absorbed a little bit.

Others complain just as much as me and that's fine. It's an Acura forum. At some point peoples' thoughts are going to repeat (almost like how you repeat your bitching towards me).

I also explained why I came here in the first place and that I would still consider another Acura. You can't understand it, and that's okay.

Bull. Shit. And no I'm not using it to get my point across. In fact, have a read:

https://acurazine.com/forums/acurazines-hall-fame-284/use-profane-language-seems-making-into-our-forum-regular-basis-118728/

Oh you're going to continue flamming and trolling me? While that's nice and all, I won't give you the chance. You're going on ignore. I suppose you also can't say you don't care, because the constant reading and commenting on my posts shows you care enough. I'm touched, but this relationship just won't work.

So, IGNORE. Thanks for playing.

MyCarIsntInMyWifesName

Pretty much different competitors too, at least in my opinion. The TL AWD is more 535i M Sport or M37S at a discount than the S4.

That is but my opinion....

compewterbleu

Bitch move. VTec Racer was on point Troll.

VTEC Racer

LOL It is a bitch move from a bitch, what do you expect. I doubt he will really go through with it though. He'll just act like he put me on ignore by not responding because as you can see, he never has anything legitimate to respond back with anyways. It's like the little kid who covers his ears and starts screaming when he doesn't like what he is hearing. BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH! lol.

BTW, the postings in the other forums he is talking about, there is only ONE, and it was after I called him out on it. I just think it's ironic that a 3G owner NEVER posts in a 3G forum but is constantly posting in the 4G forum even though he hates the 4G and is hoping the MMC is somehow going to be his miracle car. And that one single post in the 3G forum he is holding on so tightly to? It's just him giving his opinion on whether an MDX exhaust tip conversion looks good or not lol.

MyCarIsntInMyWifesName

Hey watch that mouth. No cursing!

ggesq

iTrader: (1)

You two need to move on and stop derailing the OP's thread. Any more off topic bickering and your taking a vacation from this site. Thanks.

MyCarIsntInMyWifesName

My apologies, sir.

TechnoCat

I don't know anything about the Infiniti, but IMHO the TL is not a 5-series competitor any more than it is an S4 competitor. The TL is an upscale (or up-featured) but not luxury high-performance sedan. That "not luxury" is pretty key; that's what did it in for me. The TL's closest competitor is probably the Dodge Charger/Chrysler 300, which also can have gobs of power and AWD. Or the Lincoln mkZ, also a big V6 and AWD in a mid-sized near-luxury sedan.

These cars are priced about the same as the TL too. jj

The interesting thing about of this, for me, is that the TL's closest comparisons are U.S. designed-and-built cars... and the TL is also a U.S. designed-and-built car. I wound up back in a German designed-and-built car, as that's what I'm accustommed to. They're not better, just different, but I didn't like the Chrysler 300C I drove for a while either.

MyCarIsntInMyWifesName

[quote=TechnoCat;12296631]

I don't know anything about the Infiniti, but IMHO the TL is not a 5-series competitor any more than it is an S4 competitor. The TL is an upscale (or up-featured) but not luxury high-performance sedan. That "not luxury" is pretty key; that's what did it in for me.
How dare you disagree with me.

Will this red confuse Murky?

You mean in concept not in practice right?

Oh I think they're better. . I quite liked the A4 when I was shopping for the TL years and years back, but I thought the TL was more beautiful and I trusted Acura's reliability more. But even then I also needed (wanted) something that could comfortably accomodate a couple in the rear seat. Then there was the value and performance factors.

I drove a 300C SRT8 and many Chargers. Interiors are weak but those engines and the rear drive are fun! When I was considering the 2007 TLS I also looked at the R/T Chargers but the interior totally turned me off. It's not really THAT bad, but in my world it was a high 30K car and I have expectations beyond just naughty sounds and burnt rubber. The TL was so much better in that regard, and still is.

MurkyRiversTL

Really? Those are what the TL compares to? I think that statement is a little ridiculous. Then again, I believe that has been the format for a lot of your comments regarding the TL.

TechnoCat

Right back atcha! Can you explain why you believe the TL compares better with a car costing 50% more and reknown as a first-tier luxury sedan (BMW 5-series) than with a similarly-sized, similarly-powered, similarly-priced Chrysler 300C? Especially keeping in mind how poorly it fares in the luxury-comparison against the 25% more S4?

I'm not saying the TL isn't a good value at it's price, just that I don't see that it's 5-series equivalent unless your only metric is size and speed, in which case others qualify too.

MurkyRiversTL

Lol, I never said it was a competitor to the 5 series... check the thread, killer. Are you honestly saying that the TL is on the same level of luxury as the crhysler 300/dodge charger? All because of the lack of folding seats and head restraints that are uncomfortable to you?

Come on guy. You cant be serious.... either that was a comment to get at the current 4g owners or your views on luxury are seriously twisted.

BTW, the TL is similar in size to the 5 series....

JM2010 SH-AWD

Everyone has their own opinion, but I have to say I haven't seen too many mag or on-line tests comparing the SH-AWD TL to the Charger/300 or the Lincoln whatever! In fact, I think this is the first time I've seen or heard those three cars mentioned in the same sentence.

But when you search Edmunds for the S4, the program tells you the other cars people looking at the S4 have cross-shopped. Answer: Acura TL, BMW M3 and MB C-Class.

Whatever.

MurkyRiversTL

Exactly.

winstrolvtec

Exactly, while it is not entirely a 5 series (and the like) competitor, it has that type of vehicle appeal as far as a size and sport combo go that the rest of the class, and others in that price range, do not except for maybe the CTS and perhaps one or two others. Being that there is no such thing as a subjective luxury category or class alone, the TL technically falls as a tweener, all things considered.

While the TL's level of luxury is often considered just average that certainly does not mean it isn't considered a luxury vehicle or doesn't compete within the luxury segments. Different levels of luxury can and do exist within the same classes, that doesn't define them all by itself.

If every vehicle in a class was built to the same amount of luxury or imaginery luxury standard which doesn't exist, we wouldn't have much of a range of selection or different price points within segments and no vehicles would have an emphasis on other areas that may be of greater importance to the individual consumers. I don't know where some people got this idea from. Naturally the TL may sacrfice an amount of luxury and refinement but for the price compared to the performance and size (etc), you can't expect too much more.

As far as how the TL competes as a mid level as well, let me give an example, the top of the line 55' Vizio 3D LED LCD (due out soon) still competes with the Samsung equivalent even at half the price. The Samsung will have some touches and finishes in the build and materials that the Vizio doesn't and the on screen quality will probably be a hair better etc, etc, but still that doesn't mean the Vizio is short of anything excellent and certainly doesn't mean it gets grouped with the 46' Samsung instead because of this or because of anything price related either.

It is still the same exact type of product regardless of anything else, a high line 55' LED LCD 3D TV. You wouldn't group it with the basic mainstream 55' either cause clearly it's far superior than that one in specs and performance and just about everything else.

Bottomline, the TL is also a large luxury brand mid sized sedan, capacities are very much in line with mid levels more so than the smaller sized luxury sedans, it has a similar V6 also with roughly 300HP, 90%-95% of the same feature content standard or available in either case, same level of performance, AWD with active vectoring which will also be avilable on the A6 and 5 series, etc, etc. Certain touches, a few refinements, and maybe a handful of features less when similarly equipped therefore significantly cheaper or built to a more affordable price point like a Vizio but I don't see how that is not the same exact type of product and that they don't compete. The only real distinction is one is usually more refined and things of that nature, is an import, and is therefore more expensive but that's it.

Regardless of opinions, clearly Acura is a high line (luxury) product including the TL and has been for years and eveybody in the industry has and continues to recognize this. In all product lines we see and know the distinction between the mainstream and the high line products. These areas can overlap to a degree and at times a mianstream products can step on the luxury products toes like a VW CC and an Audi A4 (among others) but there is still enough of a distinction to see and know the difference and most of the time in the auto industry, branding makes for half of that alone. It's unfortunate but true.

The 300C and Charger are nice cars but just because they come really close on a number of levels to the TL and a few other vehicles that are priced within the entry level luxury segment does not mean they actually compete there. If price and AWD with gops of power define if these cars compete with the TL then the S4 is not necessarily excluded from that group either. If you want to base it on a US built and engineered category then the TL competes mostly with the CTS as both are under luxury brands and both offer a large mid sized sedan within entry level pricing and both are technically considered tweeners. The MKZ is a fair comparison though.

True, the A/S4 as well as others may have more touches and things of that nature that are more in line with what luxury supposedly is but it isn't anything that significant or crazy different in comparison to declare it the epitome of luxury while the TL is merely near luxury. A "luxury" car IMO only needs to demonstrate an overall quality above the mainstream products and, for the most part, needs to be under a sperate brand with that type of identity but not always, and it doesn't have to have the highest scores in the luxury themes just to be considered luxury. The TL does all of this.

I feel like people have lost sight of what real luxury is. Most luxury brand vehicles are still mass produced, no hand building or stitching ect, they use plastics in the interior like anything else, and their interiors are not lined with gold. Maybe it is only me but until there is that type of distinction, I don't see an additional level of luxury present.

TechnoCat

LOL! No, Acura isn't considered first tier by even I'm writing from my phone so can't respond to the whole thing, but as I wait for my SO's fitting here at Nordstrom, we bounced this off of four NorstClones (perfect sales girls) careful not to bias it. Acura is 3rd by their concensus. Merc/BMW/Audi/Porsche/Jag in tier 1. Infinii Caddy Lexus in tier 2. Acura with Lincoln and Buick in 3. Hyundia in tier 5.

It's fine that a fan forum consists of fans but even here we have threads about what Acura has to do to fix their image.

From my Android while waiting in Womens Petites.

darmok

Pick me up something while you're there, will ya? Preferably a blonde but I'll take a brunette if they're all out.

winstrolvtec

Acura is not considered first Tier luxury by most opinions but that is not my agument or the discussion and I never disputed that. We are discussing the TL and where and how it competes. Image is another story altogether and I won't really disagree with your statement but I never concern myself with image as it is my opinion that it costs pointless dollars.

The thing that needs to be realized is that there is no such thing as classes, segments, or categories in which perceived luxury level is the measuring stick. There are no standards to officially define tier 1, 2, etc, near luxury, entry level, mid level and so on.

My point is that the only objective way to class is by brand, position, size and price. Everything else is an opinion or a matter of subjectivity and while the TL is not "perceived" by most as a top tier luxury vehicle, other Acura vehicles have been.

As far as asking four girly "clones" working at Nordstroms what their opinion of it is, I don't think anyone expected any different kind of answer then again ask them something technical but automotive related and see what kind of answer you get.

Ummmm.....I don't know and OMG... it's a BMW!

TechnoCat

I like your answer (and now am at a real keyboard), but there are often very good reasons for perception. Other than the NSX, which is definitely an outlier, what Acura vehicles have been considered first-tier?

Nordstrom sales clones are probably a better-than-average group to ask the perception of luxury. They live for it, they make careers of it, they aspire to marry it, and they have very low turnover compared to typical retail because they really "get" it. They're like mobile Rob Reports. As you say, that's different than value; they aren't so good at value. And perhaps not at features. But they do recognize luxury.

You said Brand, Position, Size and Price. Acura loses on brand pretty clearly, due to the image problem. I disagree entirely on size; none of the top brands price entirely that way, and it certainly doesn't work well with Hyundia's large sedan, or the Audi RS8 or the Porsches in the mix. The A5 is more expensive than the A4.

Position and Price - okay, but who is doing the positioning? Do we say, "305+HP AWD large sedan" (which includes offerings from Dodge, Lincoln, etc.)? Honda may position Acura upscale, but Ford positions Lincoln up there too. And Wikipedia lists Lincoln in their "luxury vehicle" article far more often than it lists Acura. (12 vs 3.) While Audi/BMW/the other traditional luxury brands are through-out it.

So if you really believe it's price and size, with a splash of positioning, how do you separate the TL from the mkZ, the 300C, etc.?

MurkyRiversTL

Wikipedia is a terrible source (which is exactly why its not allowed as a source for college courses)

TechnoCat

Oh, I absolutely agree, but on this topic there don't seem to be any good sources.

SSFTSX

There is you have to look around.

Jaquar/Cadillac/Lincoln are in nice company.

PhoenixUnit

Nice ride techno. It's good to hear your happy with your trade in. I kinda like the Tl's steering wheel better though.

ChaChaCharles

TechnoCat, I read that you test drove the TL for 10 min in poor conditions and bought the car on Acura's reputation. Then you test the Audi for a day and check every little spec. I remember reading that you've owned 3 or 4 Audis in the past. How do go by reputation and buy a car you had no personal knowledge about, then spend so much time on a car that you've owned (several) past models of? I understand they let you take it home for the night so you got more play time...but if you're one to go by reputation and not testing, you should've just ordered the car online and came up there for pick up and save the hassle?

VTEC Racer

^^^ LOL A LOT of things don't make sense with the whole story.

ChaChaCharles

Totally agree. One of my friends just ordered a M3 fully loaded...it's going to be one sick ride once BMW builds her in the next 8 weeks (Prodcution doesn't restart until Oct they said). He tried to get me into a 3 series when I was shopping this spring, but it was too small and the 5 series doesn't have a bunch of options available and a bit pricy for what it was. We agreed that German cars are awesome to own new, but you better do a private sale as soon as the warranty expires.

PS - I really tried to get him to test the S5 but he wouldn't bc he's loyal to BMW. Personally, once I break the $70k+ range, I'm checking all available options.

winstrolvtec

The MDX, ZDX, and RL are generally every bit as good as their competition when it comes to the whole luxury theme. Aside from the RL being stretched well beyond it's useful life (if it had one) and the difference between the Japanese and German luxury tendencies, no one seems to complain about a significant difference in these vehicles to their competitors when it comes to the whole luxury theme. Again the whole concept is very subjective so until they come up with a true standard of measurement which defines tiers and different luxury levels, it has little meaning or validation and that goes for opinions as well.

I'll explain, there is a misused concept that suggest that there is an entry level of luxury and a middle level of luxury, for distinction, which I do agree with only to an extent but it’s still very subjective and that will always be an issue. The other problem with this, aside from having no standards or measurements, is that it is still dependant on a vehicle's size rank one way or another. What is often referred to as the entry level luxury segment has compacts, mids, and fulls, yet the middle level can have no compacts, only mid and full sized vehicles and as it stands, no smaller mids either, only large ones. Who or what decides what is entry and what is mid as far as luxury goes? What does size have anything to do with it?

Furthermore, there are other concepts that say there are tiers for brands and how they rate in luxury and that there is a near luxury level as well. The tiers only contradict the individual luxury level distinctions, like how BMW is considered tier 1 but the 3 series is only an entry level of luxury and again you need a true definition of luxury and how it applies to automobiles before you can establish this, yet there is no such thing. The problem is these distinctions were never intended to be used as a perceived luxury indicator, that is a huge misconception. The term only dictates vehicle position as the entry level (cheapest or starting), middle level or flagship. Everything and anything else is all based on the subjective and individual perception, for the most part.

Here is an example, MB is nowhere near as exotic in European countries as it is in the states. There, they are very common and often used the most as taxi cabs. To most Europeans it's no big deal, almost like an Accord or Camry around here. Another would be to look at how marble and granite are staples of luxury for well appointed and well finished homes in the states because we don't have an abundance of cheap marble and such all over the place, or something to that effect, but we have plenty of trees and wood. While wood can also be nice and also expensive, countries with limited wood supply and way more marble than we have see wood as more exotic and luxurious. Is one really superior than the other in this regard and for this use or are they just different and viewed differently?

That is why I view it objectively and compare and group cars in those ways before I take the subjective into consideration. When I say brand I don’t mean image, as you explained Acura struggles in. I mean type, as in if it is perceived as luxury or mainstream, which creates another problem but more on that later. Price is simply price and price points, position is where the brand aims the vehicle, and size is the most basic form of automobile classification usually determined by the EPA. These are four objective ways to classify, group, segment, or whatever and not necessarily to all be considered related or used together.

You misunderstood me, it's not price and size together, think of these separately. You can only think of position as related to price because price tells the story about the vehicle's position within the brand, as you also demonstrated, but usually has nothing to do with size.

The position, which includes in and outside of the brand, is where the car is aimed. To answer your question, it appears the brand actually decides the positioning. It's where the vehicle falls into it's place within the brand's lineup and who it is aligned to compete with outside of the brand. Popular entry level vehicles include the TSX, A4, 3 series, etc. Mids are the 5, A6, E, etc. Flagships are the 7, S, etc. That is where these brands all position those cars to compete against one another. They are also the entry level, middle level or flagship vehicles within the brand, again by position not perceived luxury.

Segments or groups are generally done by size and position alone. They are there to fill a market often defined by the consumer. Usually cars within a segment are of a specific size rank and size range, the brand knows this, creates or maintains that type and size of vehicle and positions their products as an acceptable competitor to similar cars of that nature and the last part is whether those cars and brands falls under the luxury or mainstream title to define if it is to compete with other luxury, or mainstream, brands instead.

Often times price and base price are used to align the different model trim levels or variations and also has to do with the market in which the vehicle falls into but it's more of a comparison, just like perceived level of luxury, only less subjective. Makes for good comparisons but neither make for an official segment alone.

Price, level of safety, luxury, resale, or whatever else, are all things that define the vehicle within the segment, they do not define the segment itself. The segment is defined by size and position with price points brought into consideration. Naturally there are niche segments, oddballs, and tweeners that can be joint segmented, fall somewhere in between segments or don't really place easily anywhere. That is how it's done in mainstream segments where luxury distinctions do not exist so it should be no different when you look at luxury brands.

Having gone into great detail now, to answer the last question, you don't really separate the MKZ and TL. They are just about the same type of product when you look at size and position and they have similar price points. The 300C is large full sized mainstream product instead of a mid sized luxury sedan but I do believe they compete on some levels but I don't believe they group well, if you know what I mean. Not that today's market groups perfectly in general.

To this day the only distinction we have for luxury that is somewhat official is simply whether a brand is labeled and recognized as luxury or not. Lincoln is recognized as a luxury brand as is Acura, Infiniti, BMW, Lexus and we all pretty much know the rest of them. I don't know how this concept came to be, who decided it or if it was simply the brand at one time that emphasized they represented luxury and the public bought it or agreed. All I know is that it is automatically recognized and accepted but it goes to show that despite that, there are not that many standards to define what is what in the automotive world.

TechnoCat

Nah, it's simple. I believed the advertising/hype and partisans like you, and believed the Acura TL was a 1st Tier luxury sports sedan. But my standards are higher than yours. I'm also less prone to believing in boogeymen than you are - you've made it clear you consider me a troll, and by extrapolation somehow believe that I spent $40+K just to make fun of you. Trust me, you aren't worth it and since you present such a poor public persona, there wouldn't be any point in me trying to worsen it anyhow.

I acknowledged months ago that the TL was a bad choice for me. But to the other poster, no, I didn't spend months analyzing the S4 either. I made a list of about 25 items that my previous Audis had or that I considered essential in any decent luxury car, about 18 of which the TL lacks. By my standards, it's a piss-poor luxury car, but again, I realize that to some of you it's the bee's knees. The S4 is missing about three of the 25 - no electrically folding mirrors or headlight washers anymore, for example. But had the TL been just a bit closer than it was, the rest wouldn't have annoyed me so badly.

Of course, Acura themselves realized the TL isn't a luxury car after I bought it, when they re-positioned it from "luxury" to "smart-luxury", which they qualified as "value", which of course is the opposite of luxury. Some of y'all buy into that, but that's the slope that leads to Kia and Scion being luxury cars.

What the TL is (in my mind) is a great mid-sized (or large) sports-sedan. Just not a luxury one. The S4 is a bit smaller inside, a lot smaller outside, is faster, quieter and more luxurious, and costs 25% more. It's not a direct price-competitor.