winstrolvtec

I thought the TL SH 6MT weighs 3,860 lbs and the S4 6MT in base form weighs 3,847 lbs. Right there we can see for a larger car with greater capacity it's weight is pretty low in comparison.

Furthermore, when you start to add packages and options, especially the active differential, pretty much all of which are standard on the TL, the S4 gets up to around 4,000 lbs.

Again considering the size difference, the TL does a great job of weight saving. More of that is apparent when you compare it to cars of it's size category with the same type of capacity. Not that the foam doesn't look cheap and probably shouldn't be exposed but it also serves a purpose.

And I definately agree with the head restraint issue and body size being relative but if the pic above is any indication of how you position your seat it's no wonder why your are experiencing such an issue.

Your seat is very upright, move the base closer to the wheel and recline the seat, combined with the most comfortable adjustment to the restraint itself and you should be better off. Don't get me wrong, you should be able to sit how you want and Acura should probably think about allowing the restraint to tilt for that reason but that stuff is part of the issue as well IMO.

TechnoCat

There seem to be many numbers out there, but either way we're not talking heavier which was the initial statement, at least not significantly. The S4 does have folding seats; those hinges must add a lot of weight or the Acura would have them! <ducking>

I am still stunned that both cars weigh so much; I drove sub-3000-pound cars for a long time. I'm not sure where all the weight in the Audis comes from... it has lots of features - lumbar moves in more directions, more advanced suspension, counter-rotating weighted shafts in the engine, don't know about now but they used to have flip-down center-visors... these do add up, eventually - but luxury cars are heavy!

Maybe it's the camera angle. The seat is very reclined compared to how I normally sit. My Significant Other's seat is upright, but you try telling her how she should sit... good luck with that.

Maybe Acura engineers don't have women?

PenguinTL

I agree 100%. The posts targeting the man's wife were especially disappointing, IMO. Come on, folks. Those who think this guy is a troll need better troll-dar

RSLTSX09XMNAVWX

My wife did not like the headrest in our 2005 Honda Pilot, liked her TSX a lot better but fell in love with the TL. She is 5' 3".. It took me almost a month to get my seat set up just right. It took me 2 months to get the TSX set just right. Now I can drive either car for hours and have no fatigue. Just tilt back my head about an inch and you are in a very comfortable position. Also many folks don't know about how the headrest Pops Forward in a collision, all part of the seat design. Comfort is one thing, but what that seat, seatbelt, and headrest do for you , God Forbid, you get in an accident is critical!

BTW, the way I finally got my seat right, is taking all the measurements and angles from my wife’s TSX and moving them over to the TL.. I was amazed how far off I was, but when I matched them, the instant gratification of comfort. My TL seat was to high, moved the seat back about 1.5 inches, and then extended the steering wheel the same, as the steering wheel placement, and seat position all interact for overall comfort. Enjoy the AUDI, I had a 5000S way back when, 5 in a row engine, did not go!

LessisBestmakingendsmeet

Whats sad is taking jabs at the wife. Whats funny is someone with no Honda/Acura (car?)asking the OP to post pics. Whats odd is the argument the OP is providing

Weird thread!

The S4 looks fantastic in the flesh.

RSLTSX09XMNAVWX

I agree the Weather has a lot to be improved on. This is a simple software revision that might show up in the 2011 models. But if I want to see Beautiful Weather with my eyes, I just open the sun roof up here in San Diego and see what Perfect is all about!

SebringSilver

The S4 is an excellent car.

Enjoy it.

LaCostaRacer

I wanted to follow up on the cost-of-ownership issues Techno was referring to. With few exceptions, almost anyone will take a bath selling the first year of ownership. While I don't have a 4g TL, I do have a 3g and can easily compare cost of ownership to the equivalent year S4 and make a reasonable guess that the new models will be similar as mine.

The ownership costs favor the 2206 TL greatly: 34,000 .vs. 48,000 for the S4 via Automotive.com. The S4 has major costs for maintenance 7000 .vs. 4800 for the TL. Since I have had no major costs, I can certainly say the TL has been a great car to own.

Think that the new models are different huh? Well here are estimates for the 2009 models (since 2010 is not available):

2009 S4: 5 year deprec=18,041, 5 year Maint/Repair = 4030 Costs=22,071
link: http://www.automotive.com/2009/12/au...sts/index.html

2009 TL: 5 year deprec=18,041, 5 year Maint/Repair = 2546 Costs=20,587
link: http://www.automotive.com/2009/12/ac...sts/index.html

It's interesting that the depreciation numbers are the same over 5 years- we'll see if that is actually true. What we do know is the 2006 S4 MSRP was 46,000 but know the high end used value is about 29,000. The base TL was 33,000 and now fetches 20,000 on the high end. That's a drop of 17k .vs. 13K for the TL.

The big difference in these models is the first 2 years where up-front costs are lower for the S4.

I like the S4, but that's a car I would rather date (via a lease) than actually marry (as in buying and holding for 8+ years).

docboy

Dam, from your signature, the R8 is most certainly an awesome car that will run smoke around the S4 and TL.

TechnoCat

Yeah, the big costs to me are:

• I'm dumping the car within 10 months of buying it, when depreciation is highest.
• Unlike the S4 and 335, both of which are sold-out, TL's are sitting on the lot unsold here. You can get an SH-AWD 6MT one now for $39K BEFORE incentives. So the effective price of a NEW TL SH-AWD is perhaps $4K less than it was 10 months ago.
• Mine is also somewhat high mileage and has a CarFax report (rear ended, superficial but still CarFax)

That is THE question. The 2010 TL SH-AWD has depreciated new on dealer lots - that's what the reduced price means. And the 2011 restyle indicates more of that. But it should be a lower maintenance car than the Audi... partly due to far fewer gizmos, partly because Honda builds cars really well.This will be my fourth Audi. I've leased two of the three. Kept the purchased one seven years, and if not for some really hard time on it, would have kept it longer. (Probably should have.) Was glad I leased the 2000 S4 only because the 2003 A4 was a much better car - prettier, still fast (the 3.0 V6 was a sweet torque monster, stiffer and yet more comfortable.) With an extended warranty, these are great cars. With the extended warranty they can be a gamble... but since I'm really not liking the luxury and finishing-touch omissions in the TL, a gamble beats a sure-loss.

docboy

^So when is the big date?

Did you customer order a 2011 S4, or try for a East coast dealer swap?

Which Audi dealership if you don't mind posting? Bellevue, Seattle, or Tacoma?

TechnoCat

I'm guessing this Friday; it should arrive locally mid-week, but my schedule isn't compatible with receiving it.
Dealer swap; custom-orders are out about 90-120 days right now, which was a bit long. I'm accustommed to 60. We were able to find basically what we would have ordered, but brilliant rather than metallic paint, a few states away. Just a few extra options (like the sports diff, which is like SH-AWD.) Also found a perfect car about 300 miles away, but would have had to drive for it, pay more and it wouldn't be with the local dealer.

Barrier in Bellevue. I absolute adore working with them. I know reviews are all over the map, but I've been a regular there for 14 years or so and have always felt that they've treated me very well and taken good care of. For a long time it's been the case that I don't even consider other dealerships.

Example: They're doing a dealer swap for this. It's a high demand car. And yet they're also giving me a fair amount off MSRP and a higher trade-in value than another dealer would have.

I don't have any gripes about Acura of Bellevue either though. Seems like a good dealership. Not quite as personal, but then again, Barrier has known me for a very long time.

CTsteve

I've owned Audis, BMWs and Acuras, all with manual transmission. Audi 4 series and the BMW 3 series are a tad too small for my needs and tastes. The current TL is right-sized for how I go about business. The sh-awd/tech/6-MT is a righteous combination at an attractive price point. Maybe the best sports sedan bang-for-the-buck.

Still, there are issues as TC/others have pointed out. I hope Honda is listening.

simon222333

I take Honda's reliability over VW/Audis any day. Had a 03' Jetta, piece of junk! My whole brake system went out after only 5K. At 15K, the car started having a burning smell & the cruise control went out. So, I got rid of it right after. Can't say too about the Audis either. Friend has an A4 & that thing was in & out of the shop.

Kandiru

SAAB seats!

I drove a 900, a 2001 9-3, and a 2008 Turbo X.

I drove VAG cars too, 2000 GTI VR6, 2002 A4, 2004 Golf R32.

I have a BMI of 19 and am 6' 4" tall.

You can take a 10 hour trip and never leave the car unless you wanna eat or pee.
Then of course you push the "Night Panel" button and the entire dash dies out short
of the speedo showing up to 30 mph above actual speed.


Dunno about Acura seats as i only had a 30 min test drive, but VAG seats suck for long trips compared to SAAB.

Oh and BTW i love your automatic tranny allergy. I also belong to the same club. I will drive an auto after my first stroke if it does not scramble my dominant temporal lobe too

Kandiru

From a Dishwala, remember:

"When in doubt, always blame the patient"

Now seriously, as an internist, you have a point!

As a current SAABista i can see the passion for the TL, it is a strong indicator that Acura is up the great things with the adoption of a 6MT on an AWD platform.

TechnoCat

I'd take any 2010+ car over any 1990- car any day. Winslo seems to have problems with this concept also. Audi is not the same as VW. They usually have very different reliability and quality ratings - and problems and recalls. The technology does trickle between, the vast majority of the time from Audi to VW, but it also goes between Audi and Porsche and usually quicker. (Witness engine shafts, injection, ABS, tiptronic... all things that went from Audi to Porsche before they landed in VW.) VW-the-car-builder does not own Audi. VAG, the conglomerate, does own both Audi and VW auto - and VW Commercial and Seat and Bugatti, etc.

I've had three Audis in the past. In the first eight months of warranty (which is how long I've had the Acura), they averaged 1/3 of a problem total - i.e. I had one problem between the three of them. (And it was a minor one that didn't affect drivability.) In the first eight months of warranty I've had one problem in the TL (minor also)... so the TL has been three times worse than my average Audi experience.

I don't believe that makes Audi a more reliable car. It's just luck of the draw.

Adding some evidence (I know, not allowed in a message board! ), note that JD Power ratings (click here) show:

• Buick
• Lincoln
• Mercury

All better than Honda, along with Lexus, Toyota and Porsche. Acura comes after Ford!

Yeah, Audi doesn't do too well on that chart either, but their highest-ranked mid-sized premium car was the Audi A6 (click here). Not the TL.

Diving in the CR data, the Audi Q7 is pretty much single-handedly dragging down the Audi quality ratings, which the A3 and A4 are much better than average.

None of this means I think Audis are more problem-free than Acuras. I agree that the Acura TL should have fewer issues than the Audi S4. And the SOHC Honda engine should be more reliable than the ultra-high-tech super-charged DOHC counter-rotating-shaft equipped Audi engine. I just think you may be overstating the difference.

Sonor Kid 2

Wow, some of the responses here are why I rarely come here anymore, everybody is way too defensive about the TL.
I thought the observations in the original post were interesting, everyone views things differently and as a result some things theat were mentioned about the TL I may not have thought about previously.
Some of you guys are something else........

docboy

I guess you haven't visited some of the BMW forums lately, eh? :wink: Ask a question that remotely infers the Bimmer is less than superior and magnificient,

Or AZ's own cartalk, where just about everyone there seems to be offensive about the 4G TL.

Welcome to the era of the internet, where everyone believes they are right. And of course they are

Pete2010

The Internet is serious business.

winstrolvtec

I don't know who Winslo is but if you are referring to me I would kindly ask you not to put words in my mouth or call me out on a topic, thread, post, or more immediate conversation in which I am not actually taking part in.

You are right and I do agree but so is the case all over the internet, including other cars like the 3 series and A/S4 which many are being too defensive about right here on this board and in this very thread. It's the same concept and that doesn't make it any better simply because it's a different car with different supporters. Not speaking of you or anyone else specifically but at least we can say that most 4G members are not really taking our opinions and defenses elsewhere.

Honestly, it's easier to say that when one doesn't own one. There are things about the TL that you didn't know or consider so you also must realize that the best way to educate yourself is to experience the vehicle (or any other) for yourself and as much as possible. Like you said, everyone has different opinions and perspectives and the reason why some get defensive is because they might have the total opposite opinion or experience even of the same vehicle and area within that vehicle and they may feel that tthe opposing info is exaggerated and vice versa.

That is what maintains the balance and even perspective which you should also appreciate just the same as the OP's because you don't want info that is overly subjective, opinionated or too one sided. You want both sides of the story combined with personal experience to draw your own conclusions.

MyT6MT

This thread is

Stop posting people so this thread can die the death it deserves! I know, I know I'm posting too but I will leave all comments to myself.

GL TechnoCat on whatever you decide.

TechnoCat

You are. You posted several times in this thread. Here and here. It's perfectly reasonable to refer to you and your oft-stated opinions, even if merely on the TL 4G forum rather than the thread, but those are in the thread. For example, I perceive you as having several times made the case that the TL is the better luxury sedan value due to the size (correlating, e.g., to the BMW 5-series), while ignoring less expensive American sedans, Kia minivans, etc. Once you've made that case more than three times, it's part of the cultural landscape of the forum, isn't it?

Other than that, I applaud your post. People do have different opinions and values.

cp3117

Interesting thread "Techno" and again you bring up many fair and interesting points.

Do you have any updates? Have they found you an S4 and have you gone through on the purchase yet or have you decided against it?

Concerning the rest of the thread, I would obviously just ignore the people who ask you to post pictures of your car, comments towards your wife, etc. Those people along with some others are always here and at TOV trying to start arguments with others and its not worth it. Personally I thought a moderator would step in but I see in post #5 it was a moderator that actually started all of this by calling you a troll for no reason . Its nice to see that there are some members here that can see this and have already commented on it but Im starting to see why the 4G section here at Acurazine has the reputation it does.

TechnoCat

My new S4 is being shipped from another state still. It takes weeks to achieve a dealer-swap and shipping on a high-demand low-availability car, and the S4 Prestige 6MT definitely qualifies. With a little luck I may have it this Friday.

I'm grateful that you noticed. This is certainly not a forum tolerant of dissenting views by other owners!

ggesq

iTrader: (1)

Congrats on the S4. Happy Motoring.

YetiTL

Best of luck with your new S4! I hope you have good clean fun with it and not too much problems!

evodecal

S4 is an excellent car! Good luck and have fun driving it

erick3

Damn, you guys need to lay the hell off he's titled to his own personal opinions, and his thread only contributes to the WEALTH of knowledge on the boards. Sorry you're unhappy with the TL. If I had the financial stability, I would've gone with the S4 NO DOUBT. Good luck!

By the way, Barrier Audi > > > > > > > University Audi; at least when I was shopping prior to buying the G. You know barrier gives all their purchasing customers a pass for FREE UNLIMITED car washes? I would never use 'em but still...it's the thought that counts! Oh, and I'm assuming that dark blue S4 isn't on their lot anymore, right? If it magically appears...don't buy it, because I............................test drove it some.....................

erick3

You've got PM.

compewterbleu

C'est la vie!

Rocketsfan

I love the looks of Audis and BMW's, but I love the reliability and interiors of Acuras more. I want to drive my cars for over 130,000 miles relatively trouble-free and at the age of 40, seeing as I'm on my 3rd car, I think I've been lucky. One of the reasons it takes me so long to (1-2 years minimum) to decide on a car to buy is because I like going to forums and reading the pros and cons about cars. I hated the looks of the 4G TL, but not so much anymore. I still don't love it, but hey, having a 3G TL, I know I love the reliability I may be able to expect from it. Having had it as a loaner, I know I love the ride. Sometimes the perfect car for you isn't a perfect car. As much as I loved the 3G when I bought it (and it won me over almost instantly), I always thought the snoot on it was too long and it would be even better looking had it not been.

BTW, I agree with TechnoCat on the headrests. Something just doesn't feel right about them to me. Coming from a 3G, I thought I could lay my head back a bit further in that car. In the 4G, it seems like I tried to do so and I still didn't feel comfortable. Admittedly, I didn't try to mess with the headrests much to adjust them, so who knows - maybe I could've gotten them into a more comfortable position.

Good luck on your purchase TechnoCat and the the rest of you 4G's, enjoy your rides, too. I'm going to keep looking for positive and negative reviews to help me decide what to buy in the next year or so.

RSLTSX09XMNAVWX

Dont forget to tune into SPEED TV on Friday at 3:30 PM PDT for a 30 minute overview of the SH-AWD TL, 6S... Should be just down right FUN to watch!

777mycoolangelo

here's a nice render? Kinda looks like both worlds....audi body with Honda front....HA!

PenguinTL

I can't wait to see the new car!!!!

rossv1

Post some pics of the new S4! If you don't everyone will think your lying.

TechnoCat

LOL! I just got it last night, but if I post pics, half the more passionate members of this board will accuse me of trolling and showing off!

It's a fantastic car. The S.O. loves the seats and is adamant that it's tons quieter. (I never considered the Acura that noisy.) But it is a $10K more car. For me, it's worth it. The TL is a great performance sedan, but I wanted luxury also, and that's what it can't be optioned with.

One odd thing - the TL feels faster. The S4 is faster; the speedometer and radar-signs are pretty clear about it. But the TL can give you a stronger sense of kicking acceleration. (Downside - the TL was hard for me to drive smoothly.) And while both have torque-vectoring (yeah, now you know which line S4 I got), the TL feels more on-rails too. The S4 handles the same things smoothly and quietly, but the TL is far more BMW like, and maybe past BMW, in the intensity of these. They put a lot of sports-car into the TL.

docboy

Congratz on the S4! Definitely post pics when you get a chance, and no, I won't consider it showing off Life is way too short, it's great that you're moving on.

I gotta agree, the TL is a little difficult to drive smoothly if I'm not paying attention to the clutch and gas, esp the shift from 1st-2nd.

Now that you have the 2011 S4: How is the ride quality, more brutal than the TL? How about the steering feel, more feel or less than the TL's? And I gotta know this, how about the footwell space? Does the passenger side have an intrusion into the passenger footwell a la the B8 A4? And how does the driver's footwell space in the S4 compare to the TL?

You wouldn't happen to be a member on Audizine would ya?

TechnoCat

Actually the S4 ride is much more comfortable. I had a 2000 S4 when they first came out, and that puppy was brutal, but this S4 is much more compliant and comfortable. But it also has the magnetic adjustable suspension. (Which Cadillac had years ago! ) The TL has better steering feel. Both are a bit numb, something Audi is almost infamous for, but the TL doesn't insulate you quite so thoroughly from it.My SO won't even notice an intrusion, and I can't fit into the passenger side when it's adjusted for her, so I'll never know. But the driver's side position is much better than the TL for me. My previous Audi really confined the driver legs laterally; this doesn't. More importantly, I never figured out why but the TL caused my right knee pain. I didn't think much of it until someone else mentioned the same thing here. Audi must have finally learned their lesson on that.I don't think so... it's not in my password manager. But I probably should be.

docboy

I think that someone else was me

As you recall, I traded in a 09 Lexus IS250 AWD and took a bath financially because the dam AWD hump into the driver's footwell caused my right leg/knee/foot tremendous pain. Never knew such an atrocity existed.

Fast forward to my TL 9000 miles later, the TL is light years better than the IS, but I'm getting a slight right knee soreness/lower right foot and ankle numbness. I'm not sure why, but I think it's because the 4G TL has a slight "step" in the driver's right leg area that doesn't allow the right leg/foot to fully rest in a proper natural resting position. I never had this problem in my 2005 TSX (or the 94 Accord auto, 91 Integra 5spd), or in my wife's RX330 (or in the 2010 MDX loaner I had). I'm beginning to figure out it something is ergonomically off just a tad, big problems can result