SeismicGuy

In 2000 we bought a new TL for my wife to replace her 1990 Maxima (yeah--we tend to keep cars a long time). She has gotten itchy to replace the TL even though it is still in great condition and only has 85000 miles (already have a buyer for the car).

We figured on looking at cars in the next month or so but have been pondering on what to get. When we bought the 2000 TL it was pretty much a no-brainer since, at the time, the TL was underpriced compared with its primary entry level luxury sedan competition (Lexus ES) and looked good, had a great engine, nice features, etc. Consequently, we feel compelled to start by looking at TL again except the styling has gotten so bizarre (at least to our taste) that it is hard getting past that.

Also, the Hyundai Genesis has come along that, like the 2000 TL, seems way underpriced for what they are offering. Decent looks, rear wheel drive, upscale features, fantastic warranty, etc. I realize the pricing is great since the Korean manufacturers are in a similar position that Lexus was back in the mid-1990s (who would take a Japanese luxury sedan seriously??). However the reviews of Hyundai and Kia (Optima) have been very good.

I am not looking to be flamed but was curious whether any others out there considered something other than the TL before deciding on the TL.

Also, I am in the SoCal area and was wondering if there are any decent deals to be had on the TL (when I bought my 2000 there was really NO dealing at the time).


Thanks,

Doug

Pseudomaniac

iTrader: (1)

We bought a 2011 Hyundai Sonata 2.0 Turbo SE Limited (loaded, nav, leather, etc) for the wife back in November. We put exactly 183 miles on it (and it was 36 miles from the dealership to our house one way) before returning the POS to them. Car pulled hard to the left - not torque steer, but just something with the assembly or driveline. The dealer suggested they should rotate the tires.....on 0 mile tires...on a new car....whatever.

The electrical system completely failed on my wife, and could not restart the keyfobbed car. Had to put the fob in the special keyslot and do a button combination to get it started and limp home - no electrical functions (lights, seats, locks, windows, radio, air conditioning) worked.

That's my Hyundai experience.

Though the body is in a bit of a renewal need - you might take a look at the RL. You get all the same amenities of the TL, powertrain, interior comforts, AWD if you want it, and a more comfortable and conservative ride. I've always thought they were overpriced.

The Lexus ES is a quality auto with nice features, but is definitely their intro model. You've got to go up to a GS or one of the RX SUVs to get all the real Lexus comforts.

You might be pleasantly surprised how nice a loaded Accord is, in both comfort and ride quality.

The TL will be the best "driving" car of the bunch. The V6 TSX is a little rocket if you like the power, but always the stepsister to the TL.

They have not been eager to bargain with anyone right now it seems on general feedback. At best, you might hope for a 0.9% financing offer or something.

eluzion

I purchased the 2011 Acura TL SH-AWD back in January and considered a few vehicles before buying. The Infiniti G37 Sedan, Hyundai Genesis V8 and the Lexus IS350 were among my top choices, but I did look at a few others as well.

My father purchased the Genesis when it first came out so I've had the opportunity to drive it multiple times over the years. It's definitely the best bang for the buck, hands down, but I am not a huge fan of the interior design and wanted something a little more sporty. I know several Hyundai owners who have had nothing but positive experiences with them. My father's Genesis has roughly 20-30k miles on it so far and he's not had any issues. All of the reviews I've come across of Genesis have also been positive.

I absolutely love my TL (minus the 5-speed automatic transmission in the 2011) but I would definitely consider the 2012 Genesis (especially the R-Spec). If you haven't already, I'd say swing by a dealership and test drive one.

SeismicGuy

We are probably in the $35k to $40k (max) range in terms of what we want to spend and my wife insists that it be a 4-door sedan. We would like something a bit more upscale (which is what the 2000 TL was). Our closest friends have had 3 Lexus ES (1992, 1999, 2005) and all have been great cars. But I have always found these to be a bit bland and the older ones really just seemed like gussied up Camry's (of course some would say the TL was a gussied up Accord).

So our short-list of candidates includes the 2011 or 2012 TL, Lexus ES, Infinity G37, Audi (A4 or A5), and (still) Genesis. Interestingly, she also likes the crosstour types (Acura has one and so does Honda). The favorite car that we both agree on is the Infiniti M35 but that is is a higher price category.

If it were up to me, I would go with a used higher end vehicle like a 2010 Jaguar XF but she really wants something brand new.


Doug

Stew4HD

See if you can find a deal on a 2011 TL SH-AWD.. you will be highly impressed! A 2012 might be on the high side of your range but there are a few incentives. (0.9% and 1.9%)

JM2010 SH-AWD

I'd steer clear of the Audi. A friend's A4 (2.0T) with under 35K miles just lunched it's fuel pump and cam. It's a common problem - just search the net - and Audi does not seem to be stepping up according to my friend and posts on Audi sites. BTW, my friend is meticulous with his cars - this absolutely came out of nowhere. Cost to fix? $3K. Needless to say he's not feeling too much Audi love.

The other cars you're considering are all worthy. You (and your wife) should drive all of them extensively - they have very different driving experiences.

Good luck.

Glashub

You find the TL design bizaare but like the Crosstour?

SeismicGuy

The Crosstour styling is actually not bad. I think the real appeal is the utility of the model. Again, not so much my cup of tea but my wife likes them every time she sees one.

Doug

Edward'TLS

I too agree that, back 10 or so years ago when I bought my 2G TL, it was of an exceptional value buy . In fact, during that era, the 2G TL was ranked as the best value entry-level-luxury sedan by the auto industry throughout it's 5-year life cycle.

Since then, prices have crept up considerably over the years for the latest generation of TL sedans.

But the Hyundai Genesis is a completely different story. It has to be underpriced, simply because Hyundai is an economy brand.

An economy brand gives buyers a lot of features for it's products. But the luxury and the near-luxury brands require buyers to pay premium for the same level of features.

That's why all Hyundai vehicles seem to be underpriced, when compared to all the luxury and the near-luxury brand offerings.

Pseudomaniac

iTrader: (1)

Seismic; I will tell you as someone who has owned every generation of TL since 99, that the 4G is the most refined of the bunch. It's a whole new level, and I say that with it parked right next to a 2007 Type-S. It's a great car, but the market is much more complex than it was 12 years ago; which is good, but Honda isn't the innovation leader they once were.

Acura_Dude

Seismic, how about the TSX? It's a very nice styled car also. I know many people STILL can't get over the TL's styling. I for one love the mid cycle refresh (2012). I'm personally looking for the RIGHT TSX (6spd!). If you want power go for the V6 (280HP). It shares the same motor as the TL (the SH-AWD model gets its on motor [3.7 V6 305HP]) Sounds like you also like utility. If you can find one go for the TSX wagon. It looks WAY better than the Crosstour that Honda's pushing. The TSX is right in your price range too. Oh and im pretty sure Acura will have the highest resale value too compared to the competitors, but you keep your cars and average of 10+ yrs, so resale isn't an issue.

So my vote goes for the TSX whether it's the wagon or sedan. Go test drive one. I'd recommend the TL too, but only the SH-AWD w/ a 6spd auto OR the manual, but that pushes you out of your range. BTW the TL looks great in white or black. Stew4HD's avatar always seems to grab my attention.

SeismicGuy

Yes but if you are old enough to recall back to the early 1990s, I clearly remember the first Lexus LS coming out at $35K which was substantially below similar BMW and Mercs that it was targeting. The reasoning at the time was just like with Hyundai today--"who will take a luxury Toyota seriously?" So they underpriced while establishing a presence and reputation. If Hyundai is serious about trying to position itself as a quality luxury model, the early buyers are getting great deals, just like the early Lexus buyers.


Doug

Edward'TLS

Please remember that when the LS came out 21 years ago, it came as a "Lexus" LS, not a "Toyota" LS. Toyota Motor Corp deliberately created a purpose-build luxury division called Lexus to differential the luxury Lexus products apart from the econo Toyota products.

Hyundai will never shake off it's image as an econo brand, and thus will never be able to sell vehicles with the same premium pricing as the recognized true-luxury brands.

VW tried this trick with the $70K Phaeton back in 2004, and failed. Acura with the $50K 2G RL, also failed. They were the two notorious failed attempts of applying premium pricing to products whose brands weren't premium enough.

The only way for Hyundai to successfully sell premium-priced vehicles is to create a dedicated luxury division just like Toyota with Lexus.

NwTSXmt

Get the Hyundai Genesis...

gibjer

I test drove about every car in the market before I picked up my TL, here's a quick recap.

328, fun, a bit too small, optioned how I wanted, still more then a TL, interior was performance driver orientated, but not suited for daily life. Then there's the whole reliability thing.

G37, great powerful car, interior was a little underwhelming coming out of a Nissan Murano, not a whole lot differentiated it from it's maxima cousin save for what wheels were driven. And the 7 speed auto shifts were harsh, and not timed well. Shifting via the flappy paddles brings on more frustrations because of the delay.

A4, way too small for me, they squared off the trunk space, couldn't fit my golf bag in without either removing all my drivers or putting the seats down ... which doesn't work all that well with car seats in the car as well.

C300, cheap interior plastics, no sunglasses cubby, and was down 70hp and a few lbs on the TL.

Subaru Legacy 3.6R, great value for money, skip the navigation and go 3rd party on this one, turn in not as sharp as the TL, but the overall ride quality is there. And Subaru is right up there with Honda/Acura on reliability.

Dodge Charger R/T Max, Fun car in a straight line, there's where it stops ... if it stops

Ford Taurus SHO, another well sorted car, Sync system works well, big car though, dealer didn't give me the time of day, they were too busy selling Fiestas.

Edward'TLS

When the 2G RL first came out, it was definitely a pricing issue. Then, the car had the exclusive use of Acura's state-of-the-art hardware which were the 3.5L-V6 and SH-AWD. It was then never threatened by even the top-line TL (3.2L FWD), as it is now with the current 4G 3.7L SH-AWD TL.

The 2G RL was a very good car, except that buyers weren't prepared to fork out $50K for an Acura sedan, especially without available V8/RWD to back up it's "Precision Craft Performance" image, unlike most direct competitors from the true-luxury brands.

Another problem with the initial 2G RL was that it only came in one single trim level - fully loaded or no car. This put the 2G RL at a serious price disadvantage, when compared to all other true-luxury brand offerings which allowed customers to pick their desired options for their custom cars, and resulted in paying way less money. Besides, hardly any luxury car buyers choose to arm their custom-ordered cars to the teeth with all available options.

Acura also noticed this pricing issue and immediately released a much cheaper, reduced-content-trim 2G RL in the following years. But it was too little, too late to rescue the RL sales. However, if the 2G RL was then priced at $40K instead of $50K, I bet it would sell like hotcakes back then.

Back in 2005, I crossed-shopped the 2G SH-AWD RL, the A6 Quattro, and the 2G M35x ; and I didn't buy the RL. The AWD GS hadn't come out yet.

The Acura brand just didn't have enough of the prestige class status that warranted buyers to pay the $50K premium price for it's cars.

SeismicGuy

To address some of the previous comments (although getting a bit off-topic) the failure for Hyundai to (so far) not break off with a "luxury" division is the only downside so far. I have read nothing but good things about their most recent offerings (Genesis, Equus) and ditto for the Kia Optima.

Actually, the first Asian marque to do the break-away model was Acura as the Legend and Integra came out as Acura's rather than Honda's in the mid-1980s (I believe). Since then Acura seems to have faltered badly somehow compared with Lexus. For example, getting rid of the Legend, having models suddenly appear then disappear (Vigor, CL) and generally not being as forward-looking as Lexus and even Infiniti have been in establishing a real solid identity.

I have pretty much ruled out BMW. I owned a 1986 325ES for 9 years and it was really my wife's favorite car and also the best driving car I ever owned. However, the ownership experience was severely marred by chronic problems that sometimes took 4 or 5 times to fix (had the transmission replaced twice and the air conditioning fixed at least 6 times). Bringing the car in even for basic servicing was a nerve-wracking experience as you knew you would always end up with a humongous repair bill.

I also had an Audi back in the early 1980s which was not a bad car. But I pretty much had to give it away after the (phony) accidental acceleration hub-bub.

I never really had much of an interest in Mercedes but I have to admit that the restyled C-class (which would likely be in our price range) looks nice.

My wife and I find the new Buick's pretty sharp looking but I still don't believe that an American sedan would hold up over the long haul as well as the last 2 Asian sedans we have owned (1990 Maxima and 2000 TL). The Maxima was 10 years old when we sold it (and still going strong) and the TL has also been very reliable and relatively economical to maintain.

So the list or really serious candidates will probably come down to the Acura TL (or maybe we should also look at the TSX), Maxima, Infinity (G37 sedan), Lexus ES (again, I have never really found these to be anywhere close to exciting or interesting), Genesis sedan (probably the 3.8 would suffice).

Long-shots might include Kia Optima (every time we see one of these they are really quite striking and have a nice form), Honda Crosstour, Volvo S60 (suddenly these have some style).

By the way, I stumbled onto some post somewhere where a guy got a great deal using Zag Amex. I had never heard of this site before. The last time I was shopping for a new car CarOrder.com was the hot ticket but they quickly went belly-up.

Has anyone had much experience with Zag Amex or any other alternative buying methods (I would rather stick pins in my eyes than go to car dealers).


Thanks,

Doug

diddy_nyc

iTrader: (1)

I chose the TL over its competitors simply because of its radical design and overall value. It reminds me of the Hearst building by Norman Foster.. Very sharp and angular. Additionally, I felt that the TL will look refreshing for many years to come, unlike the manufacturers who keep repeating the same traditional design language.

Edward'TLS

You hit the nail dead on the head.

Not too many buyers were willing to pay $50K for an ACURA V6 sedan, but far too many buyers were more than willing to pay the same price or even higher prices for an Audi, a BMW, a Lexus, or a MB V6 sedan.

It was a dilemma for Acura. If they had priced the 2G RL at $40K, it would have virtually flied off the dealerships. But this would do no good to elevate the prestige level and luxury class status of the Acura brand name to approach those of the established true-luxury auto makers.

SeismicGuy

Off topic but I am surprised to hear this. Frankly, I have never been a fan of Porsche and the Panamera struck me as a joke. Aimed at the folks who want to say "hey look at me, I own a Porsche but am really practical since it is a 4-door". These are the most ungainly styled cars I have ever seen. They look okay from a certain view but actually horrible from the side. Still, in SoCal these are everywhere like a dime-a-dozen. They seem to be selling quite well.


Doug

Glashub

Seismicguy, I almost bought a 2011 Genesis 4.6 but instead went with a 2010 TL for about the same price. Why? two reasons. The ride. The Genesis is very jittery. From what I read the improved it for 2012 but not by much.

And because the discounted the Genny by $5,000 just cause I could frost a mirror. I may have been wrong but that seemed like a warning sign to me that they weren't selling and that resale would be hurt.

But since then, Hyundai started offering guaranteed trade in.

SeismicGuy

Well, I just returned from test-driving 3 very different cars--Acura TL, Genesis 3.8, and Honda Crosstour (all 2012). All were very impressive in their own way but the most pleasantly surprising was. . . the Acura!

What was most satisfying about the TL was the way it drove. Totally different feel and responsiveness compared with our 2000 TL. I really am impressed with the sportier feel of the Acura. I was just test driving the base model and I have to say the only disappointment was the less luxurious interior compared with our 2000. I would probably opt for the Tech package.

The second car we drove was the Genesis. This drove much more like our 2000 TL which I always felt had a somewhat ponderous feel. Nevertheless the Genesis was impressive and seemed a bit more upscale inside compared with the TL. What did surprise me though was that the sticker on the Genesis was not dramatically less than the TL although I keep hearing that these can be had for much less.

The last car was the Crosstour. We drove the top model (EXL) and this was also quite a nice drive. The interior was definitely not up to the TL or Genesis but it was still nicer than I expected. The styling of the car really grabs your attention but I realize it may turn some people off. I liked the feature of the Honda engine that toggles the 6 cylinder down to 4 cylinders to save gas when you do not need all the power.

All in all an interesting day of test driving.


Doug

Edward'TLS

Let's put it this way.

Very few buyers would buy a $40K "Toyota LS" back in 1989, if the LS had shared the same badge as Toyota.

The Lexus luxury brand had helped the LS to become successful, and the LS had helped to elevate and reinforce the Lexus brand image as a recognized true-luxury auto brand.

Likewise for the VW Phaeton. It was and is still a superior product, and can even rival the Audi S8. But no one wanted to buy a $70K VW, because the Phaeton had shared the same badge as VW.

BT9

re: More advanced like lack of Torque Vectoring not even on request?? Please...

That's a US market limitation, just like the lack of s-tronic transmission and various other options that only A6's for European delivery can have. Rear wheel T/V via the sport differential option is available on the car.

The country-wide stereotypes that manufacturers place on deciding available configurations by country, not to mention the way they change marketing messages by country and even region of a country, is something all manufacturers do.

In spite of the SH-AWD being a performance-oriented AWD, Acura seems to train its dealers in some US regions to downplay it as just another run-of-the-mill snow-oriented straight-line traction AWD system. So they don't get SH-AWD cars in inventory, or very infrequently. Yet they seldom last more than a couple days when they do get them in. Makes no logical sense.

Anyway, my point is these regional stereotypes by Acura have effectively the same end result (lack of available cars to even test drive) as complete lack of a region-specific feature by Audi.

saturno_v

That is interesting and make sense because the sport differential and TV is available on the Audi S5 I believe....however as a US consumer, from my POV, the new A6 does not have Torque Vectoring...

I don't know in other region but where I bought my car (Acura of Bellevue in WA) when I test drove it the salesman wanted me to stop on the gas on a freeway ramp to feel the effect of the SH-AWD...a lot of emphasis was given on the system...a sign was put on a pedestal inside the showroom to describe how different and better the Acura AWD was compared to other brands which were specifically listed (including Audi)

SeismicGuy

Didn't expect my thread to veer off into Hyundai bashing, Audi bashing, etc. But to bring it back to focus I feel that the TL and Genesis 3.8 are comparable but different.

One of the disappointing things about the TL was the rather mundane looking interior. When I bought my 2000, one of the things that really sold me compared with other cars I was considering (Lexus ES, Maxima, Infiniti I30) was the classy looking interior of the TL. The tufting of the leather on the doors along with just the right amount of wood (or wood-looking) trim was very tasteful. The decision for Acura to downplay the luxury and kick up the sport benefited performance and handling but hurt the interior styling (in my opinion).

Going into this I was actually leaning towards the Genesis since I had thought that pricing would be much lower. But the TL was less and the Genesis was more than I expected resulting in both cars being similar priced.

Since our TL has been such a good reliable car for the past 12 years, I would need some really compelling reason to make me not want to get another one. While the Genesis is nice and pretty comparable, pricing would certainly not be compelling enough since both cars are in the same ballpark pricewise.

Doug

BT9

Threads about cross-shopping always go that way, no matter what brand's forum you post to. The more amazing thing about this thread is that there's only been passing mention of BMW. Usually, the BMW fan club takes over every cross-shopping thread by the 10th post, regardless of what car forum. It gets so old.

Not sure I'd use the word "mundane" to describe the interior but I guess it's a matter of individual perspective and recent cars you've owned or ride in. Interior color seems to make a big visual difference in the Acura, and I really like the graphite, but the lighter colors...don't really like.

Stew4HD

As normal, beauty is in the eyes of the beholder. I would not call the TL's interior mundane at all. They did trend away from the wood trim to a more 'tech' look with the carbon fiber look trim but still lots of leather to be found. I was never that imnpressed with the wood trim anyway since it is mostly vaneer.

Based on your previous Acura experience.. why wouldn't you look there first?.. then again, I tend to stick to what I have had the best luck with.

jasonwdp10

I'd recommend the 2012 Base TL Advanced. It's slighty over your budget, but it (the 3.5L V6) received most of the MMC's improvements and is the most luxurious TL so far. It's also much more comfortable than the TL SHAWD, and gets much better gas mileage. It also is noticeably quieter than my 2010 Base Tech.

The reason I said advanced, and not tech, is because of the ventilated seats. Lexus (and maybe the some economy cars that happen to offer them) aside, ventilated seats are very hard to come by at this price range.

I know a lot of people talk about SHAWD, and it does make the car feel neutral and handle better, but most of the time, it just eats up more gas.

I've owned both the 2010 SHAWD Tech and Base Tech. For the first 1/2 year of each vehicle, I got 14.5mpg for the SHAWD, and 17mpg for the Base. The base is now at about 18.5. With the large FE improvements, and being more refined overall (over the shawd) i'd say the Base would be the one to buy.

Stew4HD

The base FWD is much more comfortable than the SH-AWD? How so?

I am averaging 24MPG overall in my SH-AWD.

saturno_v

The interior was definitely one of the strongest point that sold me on the TL...

SeismicGuy

As I stated I did look at and consider the Acura first and will likely end up with one. Regarding the interior, I still think the "wood" in my 2000 TL looks pretty decent compared with similar cars I have seen. I have never really been much of a fan of carbon fiber. I think the best looking interior was when the TL-S was first introduced and they used some dark greyish stained burled wood along with some brushed aluminum.

In terms of packages, I will probably stop with the Tech package unless there is some fantastic deal I find that includes the Advance package.

It has been a while since I last shopped for new cars. Ten years ago was the time when CarOrder.com came on the scene and, for a while, people were getting great deals due to sites like that. I recently stumbled on the Zag/Amex site and, or course, there is Costco.

Does anyone have any recommendations about how to get the best deal these days for a new TL? I assume as an existing Acura owner I might be entitled to some loyalty credit?

Thanks,

Doug

omaralt

WOW! how do you drive?? lol i drive my car like i stole it and i get 21-22 MPG and it's barely broken in yet!

Stew4HD

IMO, you best deal would be for an '11 since stock is low for the '12. The offers are really in the APR 0.9 and 1.9% for the '12's. I think you can still find good deals on the '11's.

omaralt

eh i would gladly pay more for the '12. besides that fact that it looks better (subjective) and has much better sound deadening (objective) and options that cant be had on the '11 (ventilated seats, blind spot) you'll be able to sell the '12 for more and quicker when you want to sell it; easily making up the difference in initial cost. this is unless you can get a steal on an 11

SeismicGuy

The toned-down styling of the 2012 versus the previous is the ONLY reason I was able to talk the wife into looking at these. The previous styling was such a turn-off to here what with the over-the-top gigantic grill and smiley-face rear that she did not even want to look at the TL until I convinced her that the styling had been softened. So it will be a 2012 or nothing.


Doug

Pseudomaniac

iTrader: (1)

I've had the best luck with getting them to put all their fees and what not out on the table, so they don't sneak anything mid-discussion, and then offering them $1000 under invoice and letting them wiggle their way down to the bottom dollar. The whole "good cop (salesman), bad cop (finance manager) routine seems pretty universal.

I always bring the trade in at the last part of the conversation after some base numbers have been established to keep them from using it as a subtraction tool.

I've never gotten any kind of loyalty offering - but you can expect a 0.9% finance offer if you need it. Not much else.

Your trade is an easy sale/transfer/auction with minimal investment for them if it's in good shape with that kind of low mileage.

jasonwdp10

The Base is more comfortable than the SHAWD because it is quieter, smoother, rides softer, and has more front/rear foot space.

I just got 28mpg on a recent trip where my avg speed was 80-85. I probably could have got 30mpg if I had driven slower.

The reason my FE is low is because I don't drive much hwy and live in LA where I spend part a lot of my time in traffic whether it be local or hwy.

Pseudomaniac

iTrader: (1)

With all due respect to an automotive manufacturer not afraid to put a Lamborghini sourced powerplant into a touring saloon; I'd push a Kia before I bought an Audi.

Audi/VW = electrical fire on wheels

There's a reason they're always on the Edmunds/Car Driver/Consumer Reports "Do not buy used" list.

And none of this means anything to the OP.

Seismic - good luck with the TL negotiation. Please post your experience buying, and as much as you're willing to share about the costs so that others here also benefit from the experience. You and your wife are going to love the new TL.

SNJTL

I usually first check edmunds.com for the latest incentives on new cars, then I would check truecar.com and carsdirect.com to see what other people are and best prices in your area.