MIKEYDRED

History can repeat itself the 3rd generation kicked ever car in it's class ass in sales for like 3 years in a row!

MIKEYDRED

Doc, although I agree the TL is a steal at it's price you have a few things wrong it it not bigger than the RL demensions wise it just looks that way. It does not have more features as it lacks adaptive headlights, power teloscopic steering wheel, power rear headrest, cooled seats and a few more options,however I do agree the RL needs to be bigger for the price Acura wants to charge for them. Maybe the next RL will be the real deal. The TL advantage is teh fact that it is running on the next generation technology, which I am surprise the extensive MMC RL did not recieve as I am sure the MDX will get the upgraded tech this Summer.:ponder

MIKEYDRED

^^ Couldn't have said it any better saved me a lot of typing the G inetrior and Maxima are identical and like I said Acura is winning where it counts "sales"

Tigmd99

I think that the Camry XLE has push button start. However, memory seat and HID are still rare to find on a Toyota. Hondas lack these features period.

I agree with AC Man. Here is a "new" engine from Acura and it is barely average with the class in power output, despite having a large displacement near the top of its class. Didn't Honda/Acura have a reputation for getting the most out of their engines? Where is Direct Injection? Only NOW (2009) with the new 3.7 engine (top dog engine ONLY) do we get intake and exhaust variable valve timing! Hell, Acura competitors have been doing this for YEARS!! I hear that Infiniti will introduce DI pretty soon. Caddy has done it already.

So, the TL-SHAWD has one of the biggest engine in its class, yet is at the bottom in power output. Yet, fuel economy is no better than average. And then you add in the least amount of gears in an automatic tranny...with one of the most conservative gearing in the industry! And you guys want to compare it to a E-class or 5-series??!! Come on.

I like Acura a lot, but i like for different reasons than you guys...i am more realistic with my expectations.

winstrolvtec

The new TL will add most the other features of the RL, and will likely get a strong mmc in a few years to further match what the RL offers now. CMBS and ACC has already been confirmed as far as being on the indicator on the current TL's instrument panel and adaptive headlights shouldn't be to hard, as well as the other features. More evidence that the TL will become a capable fill in for the RL's spot while it gets ready to move up. The TL can't get to far until the new RL has been released, that's why it stands where it does, they could have easily outdone themselves, but they don't want to step on their own toes either.

winstrolvtec

I dont care how many gears it has, the new TL SH will smoke the much more expensive but similar offerings of the MB, current and brand new E class, in every performance category, and outdoes the size and luxury offerings of the current BMW 5 series, for much less. Gas mileage is actually better when compared to the exact same v6 and awd models of either. 16,16, and 17 (Acura) mpg city, 22 (MB), 25, and 25 mpg hwy. Let's not forget the unsaid and all to uncommon approach, better value, more reliability, convenience, and safety, not just included standard safety features but actual, better, crash test ratings. If this is not your preference in automobiles, fine you don't have to buy a TL or any other Acura product for that matter, but don't talk like it doesn't compete just becuase there is no DI, rwd, v8, or extra gear, that's nonsense. DI is nice but what's the point if it doesn't offer better fuel economy, output, and quality emissions, they seem to do just fine with what they have. SH makes rwd fairly obsolete, it's a perfect merger of the best of three worlds. v8's are very rare nowadays and only make up a very small %, there is big discussion of this on the board, check it out. What do I care about an extra gear when it gets better gas mileage and it's performance falls in between the other two models on 5 gears, not to mention it doesn't even apply to me and those who want a 6MT anyway. Maybe it's just me but I am much more concerned with the bottom line. Don't be that guy who wants it just to have it, there is no actual improved practicality in most cases, and there will always be something more or something else to get, but it's cool, it's not your fault, marketing has had them pouring that stuff down our throats for way to long, wake up and smell the bullshit.

MR1

Interesting conversation. Are any of you considering the general state of the world economies and the status of the auto industry? Everybody including Honda and Toyota are loosing money.

This does not appear to be the time to introduce a bleeding edge new upscale product. Likewise, with everything trending toward more economy, why introduce your first V8?

Honda does as well as it does because they are on the conservative side regarding new products. Looks like a good way to conserve cash to me.

I agree that the RL and possibly the RDX were mistakes. The 4G TL is also ugly. It looks like the current course is moving the TSX and TL upmarket (underway) and figure out something new for the RL including perhaps a supercharged V6.

This truly is not the time to for a radical new expensive car.

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

This is exactly what they said they are going to do - to go all out with their vehicles. They are still prepare for that though, as in developing those tier-1 cars. They announced that goal in 2007, personally I don't think we will see the results until at least 2012. Great cars don't come out in just 2 years IMO.

I'd say since the Accord and the Camry are the "top dogs," hence, they want to be a bit more conservative. The Altima on the other hand still wants to gain more market share, and thus it's more "adventurous," ie, you see that push start button.

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

I'm not too sure what you meant by "new" with the quotation mark. The J series is a design from 10+ years ago.

When you think about it though, the MEP of the 3.7L engine is quite high for a non-DI NA engine. At 11.9bar, it's higher than the VQ37, the CTS 3.6 DI engine, and the Audi 3.2L FSI engine. In terms of hp/L, the J series is limited by its SOHC design. Hence it can't rev as high like the VQ and thus can't produce as much peak power.

In terms of fuel economy, according to several comparison tests from several different mags, the TL SH-AWD seem to get around 19-21mpg in REAL driving, not EPA. That's much better than the G37 (heck, it's lighter and has 7AT), and comparable to the DI CTS and A4 3.2L Quattro, and slightly worse than the IS350. Keep in mind though, the TL is the heaviest of the bunch too, so theoretically its fuel economy should be worse than average, but it's actually quite decent.

I'm also not too sure what is meant by "the most conservative gearing."

Ac Man

I understand that it's going to take some time for the Tier 1 quality products to be introduced, but like I said before, Acura is going to need a Tier 1 image aswell. Their Tier 1 image is going to be a lot harder to obtain than their Tier 1 products. Acura has to change their mentality, because with them being so conservative over the years, has put them in the position they are in right now, playing catch up. It's 2009 and Honda/Acura is JUST introducing a 6 SP auto (ZDX), while the competition has had 6 speed autos for years, some even have 7 speeds. I don't want Acura to put stuff out just because the competition has it, and at least when they do come out with something, it works properly. But I just don't understand why they are so late to the party. Yes, they have been profitable all these years, and that's what every automaker wants. But now that they want to be Tier 1, they have a ton of work to do because all these years Acura was content with being "fancy Hondas". Acura should've never been in this position, and I blame Honda for this. Now that Acura is starting to seperate themselves from Honda (seperate design studios, Acura financial company, etc.), we will now start to see them shine hopefully.

PetesTL

I'm only averaging 16-17 MPG on my car (mixed city/HWY driving). To me, one of the the bigggest Achilles Heel of the TL is the weight. If Acura trimmed the curb weight by about 200-400 lbs, the TL's performance and fuel efficiency, esp. the SH-AWD model, would be significantly improved. Either that or add a gear or two to the tranny. The new Toyota Venza crossover, for example, weighs almost the same as the SH-AWD, but despite having a smaller engine with 30+ fewer HP and 30+ less lbs/ft torque, has similar acceleration #'s as the TL's while getting better gas mileage. (But it does have a 6-sp. auto). Over the last 10 years, in my opinion, Acura's position as a leader in engine technology has eroded away and been taken over by Nissan/Infiniti and Toyota/Lexus. Acura is now merely a follower.

SSFTSX

It is not even in A4 class let alone in A6. another defeat to TL and A4 was not even equiped with sport suspension and performance tires. There is $10k price gap and still it justifies its price.

PetesTL

I'm not surprised at all by Motor Trend's results. That said, though, for $50K, I would much better buy a BMW 335i and trounce the A4 anyday.... sports package-equipped or not. Nowdays, you can buy a SH-AWD Tech for around $36K-37K.......a fully loaded A4 3.2 Quattro with S-Line package goes for something like $54K-55K....at that price, you're competing with a whole different class of cars (GS350 AWD, E-class, 5-series, Jaguar XF, etc), and at that price, the A4 just isn't worth it.

sifuacura

iTrader: (1)

what about the Honda S2000? It aint lacking in what u just listed..

Tigmd99

Well, true, but then again, S2000 won't be around much longer...but, i stand corrected with that one lone vehicle on honda lineup.

winstrolvtec

So they managed to record the exact same trap speed, isn't that interesting, while the TL clearly won the passing power contest, which makes me wonder exactly which car is actually faster, not to mention the Acura wins the hp/weight war by a significant margin and don't forget the Audi drops at at 0-100 mph, looks like more of the brake torque issue. I dont really buy into the FWD being faster, it isn't, maybe the test #'s they ran at the time, but that doesn't mean they should publish false information, based on variable test results. No, the Audi wont out handle the TL with rims and summers, but to be fair it could match it, but let's not forget their last gen s4 didn't outlap the 6MT SH, at it's press introduction last year. Looking inside the #'s it's obvious that Audi spent a good deal on advertising with MT recently.

Tigmd99

Well, isn't it time for Acura to start bribing the magazines since apparently everyone else is doing it??

Strange though, i have not heard of ONE incident where bribing was true in any of the popular magazines. It is always the owners of the LOSING brand that claims this possibility...without an ounce of fact behind it. How can things be "obvious" without any proof or fact behind the claim?

JD23

No one is stupid enough to provide magazines with a transparent bribe. You are naive, however, if you think advertising revenue is not tied to positive press coverage. This type of quid pro quo has been uncovered in magazines for other fields, so I don't see why it would be any different for auto magazines.

winstrolvtec

You obviously didn't look inside the #'s. If you know anything about cars, levels of performance and acceleration, then you don't need a rag to tell you what it is capable of doing. It's not bribery it's business, anyone who has dealt with any form of publication can tell you that. If they don't get the sponsors and advertiser dollars they can't continue to publish their crap. A lot of the time it goes unsaid it's a silent ethic that pays huge dividends for both sides, isn't possible that a few automakers or their affiliates actually own stock in these major publications or companies that own them, you honestly think in today's society that money doesn't talk more than ever?

Get with it.

Tigmd99

Ok...with Acura being so profitable, then why is Acura not advertising more???? Again, is Acura the last honest company??

winstrolvtec

Philosophy, they see this type of advertising war going on and they don't want to get caught up in that, they have better things to do. They focus on what they need to do to better their products for their customers and pay less attention to what everyone else is doing and what everyone else expects of them, you can see it, their approach in all phases of business and what they do is much different than others.

Tigmd99

Is that a joke what you wrote?? Do you actually believe what you just wrote??

winstrolvtec

Why ask a question if no matter the answer you will discredit it anyway? Make a valid argument the other way and maybe I will elaborate. Constant critcism, they are ugly, underpowered, can't make a decent platform, etc., etc., do you see them give a shit?, no they go about their business as usual becuase they know who they are and who is their customer.

Tigmd99

And you guys call be naive? Dude, you are on a pipe dream if you think Acura is that honest!

winstrolvtec

Ok, whatever.

PetesTL

If you have such a negative view of Acura, why on earth did you buy a TXS?......you remind me of another oddity, SSFTSX.

winstrolvtec

Not to start it up again, but Tig clearly stated that he is so happy he bought the TSX over the MB C300, for the exact same reason I said that I would not buy a MB E350 4 or BMW 535xi over a TL SH-AWD, but it's a little different, and my arguement is stronger, because the TL competes on the same type of platform with similar engine and output, so I don't get the contradiction, it's the same principle.

Tigmd99

I bought TSX because of two main reasons: HIDs and safety...and well, it is relatively cheap for what you get. But i have no preconception that it is anything other than a European Accord with more stuff. I am also not loyal to any one brand...and have a realistic view of things.

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

I totally agree. They were happy with being near-luxury before, now that they want to be a true luxury brand, it's going to take a lot of effort.

As for the tranny issue, first of all, Honda is one of the few auto makers that still builds its own tranny. Most other companies rely on outsiders, such as ZF, Getrag, Aisin (subsidiary of Toyota), Jatco (subsidiary of Nissan), etc. Second, after the 5AT issue, Honda must be careful when they introduce a new auto tranny. They certainly don't want to repeat the 5AT failure again. So the question is how come Honda still makes its own tranny? I personally would like to know the answer too.

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

Lol, you never cease to amaze me man.

Did you read the whole article? Probably not. Read this part,

"The $39,445 TL Tech, with a 3.5-liter, 280-horse V-6, costs $4550 below the SH-AWD Tech HPT, yet is quicker to 60 (6.2) and the quarter mile (14.6 at 96.9). Sure, the SH-AWD, with its stickier summer tires and more aggressive suspension, is superior in braking and lateral acceleration, but the standard TL is no slouch (125 ft, 0.83 g), "

Check out the 1/4 mile figure, that's the same as the A4 3.2L Quattro. Now look at the skidpad number, 0.83g vs 0.84g, the TL FWD only loses by 0.01g, not sport package, no AWD, not summer tires. Then wow, look at the braking distance, without all those goodies, it still stops better than your beloved A4. Enough said.

And the TL acceleration, as always, starting in 2nd gear doesn't help much. Looking at the 0-100mph figure, 15.6s vs 15.7s, seems like will catch up eventually. No, I should say it in your way, the TL will catch up easily.

"in other words, with the S line package that includes a sport suspension, paddle shifters, and 19s with 255/35 summer Dunlops -- we surmise the A4 would've generated much better numbers."

What? "IF"??? With 19" wheels, the A4 probably won't be as fast in terms of acceleration. Bigger/heavier rims = slower.

"The TL, even with its rather firm setup and large 19s, offered a surprisingly supple, quiet ride. Sure, nuances of the road could be felt, but imperfections never crashed their way into the cabin."

Again, with 19" wheels, the ride is still great. Why did Motortrend compare the sportier TL with a softer A4? Why not equip the A4 with the S-line package or whatever it's called?

"If, however, autocrossing or racetrack activities routinely make the calendar, then the TL is the better, more capable choice. But for the daily grind, be it enduring rush hour or relishing a deserted byway, the A4 is more accessible and more comforting."

Well that paragraph says it all, they want a more comfortable car. That confuses me, why would they equip the TL with 19" wheels with summer tires then? The 18" would yield better acceleration numbers and better ride comfort, which seem to be more important in this comparison.

Oh, and I just saw this, for the 45-65mph acceleration test, you know for typically passing routine, the TL is faster, so is it really sluggish?

And I'm amazed at the fuel economy. Despite having 0.5L of extra displacement, wearing larger rims, no direct injection, only 5AT, and the TL still manages roughly the same mpg as the A4.

winstrolvtec

Say something now. cough cough.... bullshit

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

And the people here bought the TL because of those same reasons + more - HIDs, safety, relatively cheap, large interior, decent features, Sh-awd, etc. And most of the people here know that the TL is based on the Accord. And a lot of owners here came from other brands too, so not really loyal to one brand. The owners here are merely trying to point out why they bought the TL instead of others.

I'm not going to comment on whether there's bribing going on with these mags. But I believe that no car is the best or the worst (well, there are a few exceptions I guess). It depends on how the mags compare them, and what they are looking for. For this MT comparison, they seem to favor the car with better acceleration and ride comfort. By choosing the high performance wheels/tires combo for the TL, those two categories will suffer for sure. Nonetheless, the TL's acceleration isn't always slower than the A4. Since the article mentioned the word "sluggish" when describing the TL's acceleration, it seems like they brake torqued the car, and according to Wavehogger, this will cause the car to starts at 2nd gear. He has done a test to prove that point, along with a video. Obviously, starting in 2nd gear will add time. When you take that part out of the equation, ie, the passing acceleration test, the TL is faster.

SSFTSX

Why you are comparing FWD car with AWD car. There is 4WD loss so performance will suffer.
what will happen above 100mph.
Not necessary think again.
there arent that many A4 with S line package and price will be way up.
TL is so large that withou 19inch it does not even look good. It should lose alone by its looks and oversize body.
fuel economy is average figure. I am sure they are not driving it at sub 20mph city traffic or above 80 mph through out the test. In 60mph range most cars will give pretty close fuel economy.
In my opinion current A4 is outdated. The Navigation system is not like Q5. and it lacks 7 S DSG for performance.

SSFTSX

When Edmunds first tested A4. they put a guess price of $45K but they said car is so good that even it is more by several grand in real. it would still win over C350. So the car is definitely worth $50K based on two magazine experts.


I havent seen new E but new A4 is as refined as GS/BMW 5/E class and would still under cut them by $5K fully loaded. Where on earth you can find such beautiful execution of led lights and S Line package.

JD23

This part of the article drove me crazy. Why not equip the A4 with the S-line package and make the comparison more fair? Instead, the TL's advantage in handling is discounted by being compared to the performance of the hypothetical S-Line A4. Very sloppy work.

georgegiorgio

Acura needs a new gen of engine and tranny...

They're still with 5AT, or 6MT... that's so old...

Infiniti is moving to CVT and 6AT or 7MT... Have I seen a 7AT somewhere?

Even Camry has 6AT, c'mon Honda/Acura... bring something new to the plate.

Also, give us RWD instead of FWD...

Acura should step away from Honda's FWD, I know Acura belongs to Honda.

But, if they keep RWD and SH-AWD, would make a huge differentiation and make unique to Acura

scv76_

RWD is over-hyped...unless you are Johnny Speed-Racer and practice launches all the time
For everyday driving there's absolutely no reason for it
It takes up interior room, has more drive train loss, and weighs more...not sure about trunk space

Plus it's old technology...most of you here probably don't remember when FWD came out
What a blessing for those in wet or snowy conditions
Acura is smart not to go that direction

Never have seen the point in H.P. wars....I would think the industry would be going to smaller more efficient platforms rather than larger ones like the current TL

scv76_

Think of it this way...had they run an S-line A4 and lost the numbers game, how would it make Audi look?

winstrolvtec

I must say that Audi is hot, but it would be nice if a car company could package up all that great stuff with a larger, more powerful engine, better handling, more overall performance, slighty larger dimensions like an A6, similar gas mileage and build quality, better reliability, safer, more standard features and now I'm asking for too much but also make it in some way available for under or around $40k, oh wait........ what am I talking about?

scv76_

^^^
lol