haestra

Saturno, I totally understand your comparison, but why others can't get it is beyond me. I like how you defended your position, with numbers. How can you argue with that!

MyCarIsntInMyWifesName

So what of the TL's inferior SOHC engine design and transverse mounted powertrain? Both are inferior designs in a performance sedan to the very standardized DOHC and longitudinal positioning.

I don't know why you just pick and choose things that make a car inferior and just dismiss others . . . . or maybe you just aren't considering all of the factors. I don't know. And the Mustang doesn't have a subpar interior anymore. Subpar to the Maserati of course, but compared to the Panamera the TL's interior is subpar, so it goes hand in hand.

I'm pretty sure you implied it was a subjective thing, but if you say so . . . .

It has higher technology in almost all regards. A couple of doodads (GPS linked climate control? I'm sure Porsche has a comparable setup, GPS linked or not, and you can believe that). You simply do not want to give the Porsche credit where it's due. I'm sure the Panamera will lose to a TL on a race course, and that's about the only "ace" up the Acura's sleeve. Of course in the real world where these cars are driven the Porsche is far more luxurious in its materials, features, and ride composure. Actually, in almost every way it's better for regular needs.

That literally means nothing. I could make a comparison thread of the 760 and Phantom. It means nothing that the BMW costs about half as much. Really, this comparison you're trying to make, even a spec sheet race, makes about as much sense as comparing an Aveo to a 3-Series diesel in Europe. Sure you CAN, but would you?

I'm not asking you to research for me, and by now it's pretty obvious I don't even need to research anything to school your ass on the reality of your "comparison".

Where are the tests PROVING (I'm only using your logic) that the Porsche's system is actually inferior to the Acura's? Or are you just, as you say, speculating?

And the Panamera's price difference is obviously justified in the fact that it's selling very, very well, and the TL has only recently started picking up a bit (nothing close to leading the pack like it used to, mind you). And who does Porsche care about more, you and me or the people shelling out the coin for their cars?

Every time the going gets tough for you, you try to slip out the back door. Whatever floats your boat I guess.

The problem has nothing to do with the TL or Acura. It was a stupid comparison. My 2004 TL had comparable room and features to cars costing $20,000 more with 6-cylinder E-Class or 5-Series, or so on. On paper the thing is a steal, but you didn't see me running around proclaiming the TL is a world beater that is superior or equal to cars costing much more. You get what you pay for. I like my car way more than any other brand I've had before, but it's still a front drive gussied up Accord and not a 5-Series. That's just the reality. Again, nothing to do with Acura. The same is said of the ES, Maxima, Taurus, or anything else that's a value luxury car these days (well, usually).

Many people here don't like the direction Honda has taken with Acura. I am one of those many. Between my wife and I two of our three vehicles are Hondas. I do not hate Honda at all, but I much preferred Honda circa 2005ish than Honda circa2010. Honda 2005 tried. Honda 2010 is not trying much. If they start trying again with the 2012 TL I'll remain in the Honda fold. If not, well, I'll take my hard earned cash somewhere else.

Glashub

@mycar, you may take your hard earned cash somewhere else, but none too quickly it seems since it looks like you hold on to your cars for awhile. Look, you guys are a drag. I went back and forth between a Genesis and a TL. The Genesis forums have a whole different vibe. Everybody is upbeat and appreciative of their Genesis. They like their car and they're proud of it. I come here and it's like dating a beautiful woman wiith low self-esteem who cuts herself. Or worse yet having to stand by and watch a husband verbally abuse his beautiful wife because he's envious of his neighbor and covets his wife. People are ashamed to say the TL is a lovely car and a great value. There is so much bashing of it. It's really uncomfortable. All saturno is trying to do is to help people feel better about their TL's.

And in the audio world he comes from a long and honored tradition of, "these $500 speakers sound as good as speakers costing 5x more." And they usually do.....although people will still go out and buy the more expensive speakers.

At some point it's a matter of diminishing returns vs. price paid and premium cost for a brand.

I chose the Acura for a number of reasons. I like my choice and I like driving it.

saturno_v

The SOHC or DOHC design doesn't really matter, because they both allow an emispherical combustion chamber design but I realize that talking about numbers and enginnering is a waste of time with some.

The traverse mounted architecture did not prevent the TL to whip the 335i, 335ix and S4 asses ont he track....please do your homework.....Edmunds (Insideline) and Car & Driver.

I never said that the Panamera is inferior to the TL.

Fairly subpar.

Less luxurious materials overall for sure, but quality of assembly is very very good on the TL, way ahead than anything Ford cranks out..

"I'm sure" doesn't work...no GPS linked climate system (among other things) no torque vectoring, no forged crankshaft, etc...

My post was not about giving Porsche anything...it was about the TL.

Your opinion, not necessarily true.

You lost me with that

Evidently I did need to do it once you "were sure" that the standard stereo system of the Panamera 3.6 was better...it is not.

Do you have reading problems?? I even posted the official Porsche page...it is a 10 speakers 100 watt non surrounding (just 2.1) system vs. the ELS 440 Watt 5.1 surround of the TL with Tech Package....I'm quite sure that, at least on paper, it's a better system.


I don't know how well the Panamera is selling, I do not have numbers in my hands and, however, is totally beside the point.


The going never get tough with me...actually it get tought with you guys when you do not know how to answer. I just get tired of arguing with people that do not know how stick to the facts.

And actually I received "support" in terms of private messages asking me to keep going and brings facts and numbers, something many people doesn't seem to be able to do it.

Actually the TL 3rd generation is an absolutely great car and I would have pick one anytime over a 6 cylinder 3 series. Just the look is miles ahead better of both the 3 Series and the 5 Series of the time. By the way you could have got a Bimmer for the same money...maybe with a smaller engine...why you did not do it??

In 2002 I got my 6 speed Maxima SE, and regardless what you may think (I' m sure you do) it was a globally superior car to the 15K higher sticker E39 530 at that time.

It had more power, a more refined engine, 6 speed instead of 5, more room at the back, a much better audio system, limited slip diff, HID lights, more accessories, better braking.

And before you bring up the "inferior traverse mounted FWD architecture" (for your information many world class motorsport and rally cars have that architecture because it allows fairly spirited handling especially on limited grip conditions) I smoked out more 3 and 5 series 6 cylinder that I can remember especially in the rainy Northwest roads. In the twisties it was fun seeing few bimmers fishtailing behind me....

You should not sell your old TL short....


In almost 8 years has never been in the shop other than regular maintenance compared to my co-worker 530i which has been in the shop quite often...so yes, my Maxima was a globaslly superior car to a 530i...the Bimmer got a better shifter and a bit more luxurious finishing inside (again, NOT quality of assembly...just more luxurious materials)

Not always.

Just stop reading car magazines and drive some more....give me your TL to drive on some nice winding roads I have in mind and see if a contemporary 530 or 330 can tail us...

The Accord platform is the best FWD design out there....double wishbone at the front, multilink at the back, front and back subframes with alluminum elements.
Please do not lump a Taurus with a Maxima together....

So maybe this is your real issue...do not dump it on the TL.

Guess what...Honda (Acura) gained a new customer with me....I cross shopped my TL with 3 and 5 series, A4, G37 and IS...nothing could come close from any angle I did look at.....Acura never had a sport sedan like the new TL SH-AWD in its arsenal, that is the reality...at the time when I did buy my Maxima I did not think that the extra coin required for the TL of that time was justified over the Nissan.....now I feel I almost paid too little for what I got....this sort of nostalgia down the memory lane ("ohh how much better was Acura before" ) is frankly unjustified....it is simply not true.

JM2010 SH-AWD

I don't know how anyone can say Acura "isn't trying" when it unleashes a 300+ HP, torque vectoring AWD drive sedan (with 6MT) that will run with or whip world class sports sedans on a road course, for up to 20K+ less than those world class sport sedans. Really?

MyCarIsntInMyWifesName

Oh it doesn't? Is that why almost every manufacturer has moved to a DOHC engine design?

So my dear expert, please enlighten me as to how these two are so equal. And no, I do not want to hear "SOHC can be made as efficient as a DOHC," because if you really know what you're talking about you'll realize that's a backhanded statement.

By your logic independent or solid rear axles don't matter since the Mustang GT is able to perform more or less on the M3's level.

And it would do even better if the entire setup was more balanced. The Evo is an amazing performer and has a tranverse setup (or used to, anyway). That doesn't take away from the fact that it would do even better had it this setup in the same way the Veyron is the fastest car in the world . . . . but if it had better aerodynamics it could do even better. Do you understand what I'm saying?

We've discussed at great length Edmunds and CarandDriver comparisons. You don't need to keep telling me to do homework.

No, it really isn't that bad. But maybe you haven't even had a seat in a new Mustang. Is it a TL? No, but that doesn't make it subpar.

ANYTHING? No . . . . but you're missing the point anyway. Why you brought Ford into the Panamera vs TL's interior discussion is strange.

True, in the same way someone could say they prefer a Cobalt to a TSX. I mean you can SAY it, but . . . . you probably have issues.

You still have nothing to back that up other than on paper stats. You're supposed to be the one with all the test proven items.

So where exactly is it proven then that it translates to actually superior audio? I'm just curious, unless you believe better on paper stats automatically is better.

But I see, you're "quite sure". Now being pretty sure is good enough for you, whereas just a moment ago it wasn't good enough for me to be sure. All of this based on paper specs huh?

What do you mean "you guys"? I have never debated with you before I don't believe.

That's great for you, but I had people support me before out in the open forums, and I can back that up if you disbelieve me. But unlike you I feel not the need to bring up support from others, because that proves jack.

As I've said before, I could've had a 3-Series but it wasn't worth it to me to step up to a smaller car with comparable performance with the 330i. My needs include having four doors and two roomy rows, which defeats the 3-Series. The TL was a much better value and I much preferred its styling. BUT, and this is a big but, you won't ever see me saying the TL is as good or better, because it isn't. It simply fit my needs in ways the BMW did not. If the TL works for you over the Panamera that's great, BUT it does NOT make it as good as or better than the Porsche.

I had a 2000 I30, and I tested the I35 and TL before deciding on a 2002 ES (comfort craving at the time). The Infiniti and Nissan are not as refined as the 5-Series was even then, sorry. I'm sure you will hide behind "that's subjective", but the VQ has been hit by many for its lack of refinement relative to some competitors . . . . much less an I-6 BMW. The I30/35 and Maxima never have compared to the 5-Series. They're great cars (that's why I had one!), but they aren't even near equals.

You're the one reading magazine stats and you're telling ME to stop reading magazines? Get a grip buddy.

I'll take the rear drive enjoyment whenever I can take it. The torque steer was entertaining for a while but I've grown up. My next car won't be front drive. And by contemporary I guess you mean 335i and 535i. If you think those will lose to us on winding roads . . . . the crack pipe can be put down right now. A 335i weighs about the same as the 2004 TL and has over 40 hp more and about 70 or so more tq, and it puts it down at the rear wheels.

The TL would be a distant memory, but that's okay because I still like my car. It just doesn't mean the BMW isn't still the better car, just that mine works for me.

Earlier you claimed I didn't/couldn't read, yet now you completely skip over the fact that I said that this comparison has NOTHING to do with Acura or the TL. If you made this topic on the Maxima, on the G37, on the CTS, on the CC, on whatever else in this price range you'd be getting the same answers.

And for the record Honda's buyer consideration is down, so clearly I'm not the only one that doesn't like the direction.


Actually no. I've explained my position before. This is far and away the longest I've had a car. Looking back at the last few cars, I had a 2000 I30, 2002 ES300, and then the 2004 TL. I was interested in the 2007 TLS, but it was a good $5,000 or so more and I decided against it, even though it was beautiful. It was awesome, but still mostly the same TL I had already been driving. I was not interested with the 2009 TL, which was unfortunate for me. The interior turned me off, with it lacking features many other cars had for the price and the design less appealing to me (but that's me, I know that's personal). It also grew by a lot and yet it wasn't much roomier at all. I still liked the car, but in a lot of ways it was like the 2007 TLS, very nice but just not worth the new car price.

That doesn't make it a fact. That's just my opinion. Many owners here probably traded their 2004-2006 TL in for the 2007-2008 TLS or 2009-x TL. It was worth it to them. I too chose my Acura for several reasons, and I still enjoy it, even though I'm getting rid of it soon.

Saturno doesn't need to be anyone's mood swinger. We are all big boys and girls. If we need people to start posting to make us feel better then there's an obvious problem with our purchase.

MyCarIsntInMyWifesName

Because it isn't about just performance. Anyone can do performance, and contrary to popular opinion it's not that challenging to do. As we already said, Ford now builds a Mustang with a live rear axle that performs similarly to the M3.

This is supposed to be an entry luxury sport sedan, and for some the luxury part is where the TL is a bit lacking. My car has plenty of performance for what I need. I don't demand an M5.

winstrolvtec

Speak for yourself, this is the 4G members section so just because you are not as big a fan of the car and do not actually own one does not give you the right to take away this type of discussion of the TL in a positive light. There is nothing wrong with this thread or it's topic in the context it's being discussed.

The Porsche is not being made out to look bad or the TL to appear better only what the facts are that it is twice the cost and offers no more performance and possibly overpriced for what you do get over the TL but it has been stated more than once that the latter also consists of the subjective as well. You are defending against more than is suggested. These are facts you obviously just don't like what you are hearing.

Stuff like this goes on all over other fan based sites but for some reason we should have be careful what we post in a dedicated car section, isn't that the point in having them in the first place? If we can't do it here where else can we? If you don't like it you don't have to frequent the 4G section or necessarily contribute, in fact you can check out future TL updates, rumors, and news in the other sections of this board.

No car is going to be everything to everybody that's why we have choice. At the same time the TL has plenty of features and luxury for what the people who actually bought one need and it also has the added performance model for those who want it. Any car can be improved in a given area, not just the TL but they all have their niches and indivdual markets.

If you really don't like or don't need what the new TL offers find a car that has that and move on. Most bought the TL because it offers most of what we are looking for, and for a great price, not because it was an Acura or a TL, you should do the same.

saturno_v

Not all of them.....Honda build 4 cylinder V-TEC DOHC and V-6 SOHC, so they "play" both side of the equation.

Nothing prevented Honda to change the design of the heads to switch to a DOHC design in the J-Series (many manufacturers did in their engines, it is a relatively straighforward move), probably the costs outweight the tangible advantages.

With a SOHC engineers have as much freedom to design the shape of the combustion chambers, intake ducts and exhaust, and sophisticated valvetrain management technologies (which Honda pioneered) and that is where the engine output characteristic take shape...read about the newest J-Series intake and exhaust port technology.
Yes the extra rockers and levers introduce a bit of play but, on the other side, the valvetrain setup has smaller overall mass, weight (and intertia).
Considering that Honda is at the forefront of engine technology (read some of the detailed specs of the TL engine, not just the brochure summary) I'm willing to give them credit.

When it comes to engineering, you have always to weight costs vs. benefit...the live axle unfortunately has some hard limits on its kinematics characteristis which you cannot overcome compared to a indipendent setup....going back to out engine example, the push rod design imposes too many restriction in the freedom to design exotic combustion chambers and intake/exhaust setups and introduces lot of inertia....in that case the benefits may outweight the costs.

Granted nothing stopped Ford to design an absolutely great live axle setup with a fantastic work in fine tuning.

On the other side the Corvette engine despite its push rod design, it's a fantastic V8 with a lot of high tech in many areas.....the 7 liter LS7 is actually ligher than the 4.3 liter V8 unit of the Ferrari 430.

The Corvette is an outstanding sports car which can outperform on the track many aristocratic European exotics costing 2 or 3 times.......on the other side you have to deal with a more utilitarian finishing on the indise but it is a price I'm willing to pay in a pure sport car.

You sound like some of my Eruopean friends that when they hear about the corvette they dismiss it with stuff like "ahh it still uses leaf springs!!" forgetting (or, better, ignoring) that it uses single leaf composite material traverse mounted leaf spring and douible wishbone front and back. These composite material leaf springs are used to significantly reduce weight (and weight it reduces!!!)

The traverse mounted engine offers its advantages in the optimization of internal space, after all this is a sedan not a sport car...so it has its advantage.....heck there are even exotic sports car with rear-mid engine setup where the unit is arranged in a traverse fashion (Lamborghini Miura or Countach for example)

Honda used the best world class FWD architecture out there (the Accord) and used it as base for the TL, adding the SH-AWD setup and it did beat the RWD lighter 335i, the AWD version of it (335ix) and the more powerful and lighter S4...so Honda created a winner without the need (and the expenses) to create a new platform...what the heck you want more?? walking on water??

The TL SH-AWD has a weight distribution of 58/42.....the entirely redesigned A4, where they moved the engine rearward a little bit, stretched the wheelbase, did this and did that its weight distribution in the 2.0 turbo version it 55.5/44.5...the S4 is even slightly worse....where do you draw the line?? Are the average driver (or even the expert driver) capable to "feel" the 2-3% of difference?? I take more internal room over that.

Oh yes I did....I even test drove it.....for me is subpar, not only in materials but also in quality of assembly

The TL Audio system has been labeled by any of the specialized press "world class", it is a surround sound system where the basic Panamera is not, it has more than 4 times the power...is a very good amount of what in legal terms is called "Circumstantial evidence".....

And the fact that you keep arguing about this particular issue is a good evidence of your personal issues with Acura....

Your TL is as good as a 330 or 530 series of that time...simple as that.....your TL has a traverse mounted engine?? The Bimmers had an inferior McPherson setup at the front and so on....

I was never int he market for the Panamera because I cannot afford it and even if I was I would defnilitely go somewhere else.....

And yes for all practical purposes my TL is as good as the Panamera 3.6....the Porsche has definitely some nicer aspects but definitely not worth it double the price of a TL SH-AWD..simple as that....it is worth it 10 or 20K more in my book?? Probably yes.....

There is nothing to "hide"...the VQ engine is a world class unit (made it several times in the Ward's best V6 list), it is a fantastic engine...franly I don't know what are you talking about.

It is not as smooth as a 6 inline of course but it has such spirited revving that you need to hit M3 territory to beat its eagerness to play...are you sure have you ever drove one??? Even the GT-R engine traces its roots to the VQ....

The Maxima frame had the best stiffness ratio in its class.

You tend to confuse "refinement" with interior appointment that is where the Germans are able to fool many but not all...I tend to look under the skin.....

The I30/35/Maxima compared with the 5 Series....Nissan was drawing the comparison even in their sales brochure for the Maxima (I should still have one in my garage, if I find it I will post it for you)

...and they are not "near equal" because......they are FWD??...so I guess the Maxima is not near equal a Crown Vic for the same reasons.....or just because they do not have the BMW logo on the hood??? I bet is the second....


Let me tell you about REALLY less refined cars at that time.....for less money than the Maxima I could have get the Chrysler 300M...or the Buick Regal and the Pontiac Grand Prix supercharged.....they had serious subpar finishing, vague steering, indifferent damping rats and Jello-like freame stiffness...that is what I call a subpar car.....

I read magazines (and even reading between the lines) AND I drive.....

If rear drive was that important for you you should have got a 525 or a 530 over the TL...why didn't you??? I quickly check for you (again) the 2004 prices....6K more or so and you were on a 525.....about 9 or 10k and you would have hit a 530....just wait one more year and save some more....why you got the Acura???

Oops, my bad...I meant "of that time"....means 330 or 530...I would take your Acura over these two any time also because i have allergy to repair shops....

Have fun with your next RWD...personally I have no use for a RWD in every day driving.....especially in the rain the fun factor is all gone, trust me.....

Get the Bimmer and qui wining about Acura.....

Maybe YOU need to feel better about your purchase....and you feel the need to tell us how ready you are to move to a "superior" car.....just do it.....(by the way I owned 2 BMWs in my life...how many did you???)

WalterSobchak

The multi-quotes and average post length on this thread are getting ridiculous. If it weren't for the lack of pictures, I'd think its a DIY.

Glad its stayed (mostly) civil though...

saturno_v

This unfortunately happen when people cannot discuss facts and numbers and pull things out of their proverbial behinds so you need to correctly inform them.....

Litt

Some people are getting pretty emotional on here. I made a smart ass comment about the WRX STI, only because I saw this is a performance vs. $$$ comparo. Therefore I made another similar comparison with two other cars.

But I love my car. I wouldn't want to own a loud rough unrefined STI. I'm sure if I made MUCH more money I consider a porsche or M5. But right now value does hold a little more importance.

Mr Marco

Sooo, what is the story with the Ridgeline?

Mr Marco

I think you speak for the majority of 4G owners. I certainly identify with your statement.

My sister left her Impreza wagon at my house for a week when she was on vacation and I drove the shit out of that little car. I shredded the tires on under that rally inspired AWD, sling-shot it through the ditch, and did things she will never know. I loved driving it. I don’t think my Accord even made it out of the garage at all that week. But I would never own one, just like I would never own an Audi.

Aman

Well the subpar interior's a valid point, and one of the reasons the Maserati demands its significantly higher price. Live axle is just a different way of achieving the same thing. If you want to stick with Car & Driver, look at their review of the new Mustang and its handling capabilities.




99% of German cars are limited to 155 mph, because top speeds are much more easily exploitable there. It probably gets a heck of a lot harder to control a car in the high 100s, something that probably shouldn't be trusted with public drivers on public roads for the most part.

Tell me then, why do you think top speed governors are in place?



You only posted recorded numbers in your first couple of posts. Nothing recently


I haven't driven both, but the majority of magazine road tests (i.e. the best source I can use) say it's actually the other way around. Almost all of the improvements of both the WRX and STi over the base Impreza are for performance, and maybe looks. The STi is a much more hardcore car, the WRX is apparently more livable, but has 90% of the performance of the STi for much cheaper.

Aman

You're not getting the point. You're saying the TL has the performance of a Panamera but for half the price.

We're saying yeah, but the reason that the Panamera is supposedly double the cost of the TL is because it's superior to the TL in areas that can't be quantified by numbers.

winstrolvtec

If it can't be quantified by numbers then it's not an objective comparison, the OP seems to be focusing more on the objective, nothing more, nothing less. Everyone including the OP is completely aware of why the Porsche is more money but that doesn't necessarily mean it's automatically worth it or justified, nor is the TL for that matter.

Just because we chose a TL which might be a car a few here would not consider does not make us oblivious to what you and others are saying. That's besides the point, you aren't proving anything or stating something nobody knows. The context of the thread is more of an appreciation for the 4G TL and that clearly is the problem for some, not anything else.

Aman

Whether or not the Panamera is worth its sticker price isn't objective either. And no disrespect to saturno_v, but it feels like he's insinuating that the TL as a car is as good as the Panamera.

Whenever you state facts like in the OP, 99% of the time there's a thesis behind it. A simple statement of facts is no grounds for discussion. I'm disagreeing with the thesis that seems to be insinuated by the OP, which is the Panamera isn't worth its price, or that the TL is as good as better than it.

I have no problem with appreciation threads. As a matter of fact, the whole reason we're all members of this forum is because we appreciate Acuras, among other cars. I don't think the right way to do it is to bring down higher-class cars and portray only the facts that support your argument.

It probably sounds like I'm a 4G hater, but in all honesty I'm not. Never been a fan of the styling, but IMO SH-AWD is one of, if not the best AWD system on the market today and I think the TL is a very capable car. It's a great buy for the practical enthusiast who's well off.

winstrolvtec

Yes, we all know that cost worthiness is largely subjective but hypothetically, even if he is insinuating that the TL is as good, why does it sound like you are suggesting that it can't be or in any way, especially since that can be very subjective as well? Sure there are objective areas where it is superior but the TL has those too. Just because it is a Porsche and costs double does it automatically have to be superior and in every possible way? Are there no objective areas where the TL is equal or better for half the cost?

Sounds like it was more of a comparison of size and performance to cost and in appreciation of the luxury distinction, size, performance, standard features, and cost of TL as the point behind the data. It didn't sound like he implied it was as good as a whole or anything like that to me, only where it was as good for half the cost. Even the thread title suggests it's an outrageous comparison, just not entirely which is then explained.

Saturno even said the Panamera being worth it or not is subjective in the intro post, he also stated the dimensions and statistical performance were comparable for half the price, all of which is true. No mention of the TL being better than it is, only what it is and is capable of by factual data and no actual mention of the Porsche not being worth it objectively or subjectively. If at all implied, it's clearly only based on his opinion since he already established it as subjective. It's fair to not agree with the comparison type of cost to size and performance alone but that's really all it was and it's not incorrect.

I think all he is trying to say is the same thing you said here but in other words and with supporting data and details. I don't think you sound like a 4G hater but it could come off that way just like Saturno's post seeming as though he is trying to bring the Porsche down. I don't think that this is the case for either one of you but maybe because we are posting text and not actually conversing, anyone can easily be misuderstood or misinterpreted.

saturno_v

PR and marketing reasons (to appear "responsible"), to avoid crackdown by insurance companies (as it happened in England in the early 90's) and because, as you said, a bit of lack of trust in the capabilities of average people driving at very high speed....and, if you ask me, any limitation above 100-110, like 135, 150, 155 or whatever arbitrary number do they choose doesn't make much sense, it is very dangerous anyway...why Honda was electronically limiting the 2nd generation TL at 149 and the new one at 134?? Ask them, who knows, they must have their reasons....but definitely is not for lack of car capabilities at high speed.



I posted quite exahustive testing numbers about performance, braking, roadholding, fuel consumption, noise level....there were not much more data to post however if you paid attention I kept adding some hard info to someone for example that "was sure" the basic audio system of the Panamera was better than a TL


I drove both and you can definitely feel the difference...suspension tuning, sharper steering and better shifting...try yourself at a Subaru dealer

saturno_v

The only areas that cannot be quantified by numbers and specs are style (highly subjective) and interior finishing and quality of assembly.....yes the Panamera is superior in finishing and some technical aspect, while the TL is superior on other aspects compared to a basic Panamera....so is the Porsche 40K more superior?? That is the hard question....

saturno_v

If a fully loaded TL SH-AWD is as good as the Panamera 3.6 4 base is highly subjective....performance number wise it is, technolgical contents and equipment wise they are very close with some edging out the other is some areas and vice versa...now, if you put a very high premium on superior finishing (not necessarily quality of assembly where I believe Acura is can hold its own very good) then the Panamera is well worth its sticker price...it is a personal choice.......from a matrix made of specs, size and performance numbers, technical refinement the two cars are, as shockingly as it sounds, very comparable.

Now, if you unleash the checkmark sheet of accessories and options, the Panamera can significantly pull ahead with some highly exotic hardware but, incidentally, you can end up with a car costing you north of 120-130K

Now, let me give you my personal thesis....yes the Panamera 3.6 base is not worth its sticker price in my book....Am I saying that it should cost as much as the TL?? Obviously not....even just the brand should command a higher price, however 40K more is way overpriced....again my opinion.

I did not bring down the Panamera.....the purpose of my post was to point the fact that the TL is one hell of a good car that can match in performance, the accessory level and even out spec is some areas even one particular car costing double the price....

And just to be clear...I think the Panamera 3.6 is overpriced even compared to the new BMW 535i...as a personal opinion Porsche should not have proposed such small engine on the Panamera because it "forces" the comparison down the road with very capable highly technolgical competitors (with the A6 3.0T and the 535i among them)

If I was in the market for a Panamera, I would fork the extra 12-15K and get a S (or a 4 S) with a much more appropriate engine for that class of car.

Mr Marco

It would appear that there is a huge amount of money spent keeping that Porsche brand alive, multi-millions of Euro’s. And don’t forget Audi. How much did Audi spend to be the sole advertiser on all three networks of the last American Presidential Inauguration? Advertising costs are passed on to the consumer. So the next time you eat a Whopper, imagine you’re sitting next to Eric Estrada in a Burger King commercial. After all, a penny of the cost of that ground beef went into the pocket of a fat, washed up, Puerto Rican with a chip on his shoulder.

Glashub

Wow, it's like Galileo and the Vatican. He wanted to discuss Math, they wanted to discuss that which can not be qualified. I have never been on a forum where people who don't own something go out of their way to crap on a product. Well, actually in the A/V forums the type of person I just described is called a troll and is drummed out of the forum.

I don't know what it is about the TL that incites people to try and diminish it. It has at least two things in the 40K range that is unique, a universally acclaimed and unique AWD system and a sound system that Edmunds ranks #1 ahead of Jag, Lexus and Aston Martin.

Steven Bell

iTrader: (2)

Guys, I actually had to re-read this post from the very beginning to really wrap my head around it.

Look...if you can't stick to facts without personally attacking each other, I'll just shut this thing down and issue some holiday vacations.

EVERYBODY....needs to dial things down and stick to the topic facts (without personal attacks).

Last chance....either dial it down a few notches, quit the personal attacks, or you'll be missing Acurazine during the holidays/new year.

Mr Marco

I think Acura has been battling the “overpriced Honda” label for a long time. That combined with hard work on the part of other automobile manufactures trying to create a unique category that will push their brand into a specific class away from a more affordable option for the consumer. If you can buy the Lexus LS for $73K and get power and comfort just as good as the Panamera S for $93K, why would anyone pay $20K more? Exclusivity? You could add “F” handling and stopping power to the LS -or maybe that’s the GS, I can’t remember- for less than $20K.

I just saw a press release on Acura news that touted the TL as having the best resale value in the “near” luxury car in the market. Maybe that is where all the quantifying in these posts is coming from, a clever marketing system with a car that’s “just right” for you.

FWiW, I was only poking fun at Estrada, not anyone here on AZ!

saturno_v

While I think it was a very spirited debate, I did not see any personal attacks or offensive words so far....

New2Acura2

I'm a member of the avs forum too. Been a member for a few years. I've seen discussions like this on there before in the plasma section, lol. Usually mods delete posts when things really get out of hand.

LessisBestmakingendsmeet

Not sure what it is about 4G owners compared to 3G owners but why is there constant trying to justify purchase posts/threads and trying to make the car out to be something it is not against higher priced competition it isn't intended to compete against?

If you did any significant reading on the Panamera or even took it for a drive for even 5 minutes you would understand why it costs so much. I'm afraid to see there is more engineering effort in the brakes of a Panamera than any entire TL or even RL. They went through an amazing process to keep weight down (note the weight of the V-6 is low for a big, luxurious car). The build quality is second to none. The option list is expansive with features never offered here. Even standard features are not even an option here. Everything feels like its made from granite. The leather is incredible. The steering feel incredible. There is even great cargo room with the hatch. Its complete apples to oranges.

Amazingly MPG is pretty incredible for the higher HP S and Turbo models. For example a 500hp Panamera turbo has the same MPG as a 300hp RL and only 2 MPG less than a TL. Pretty astounding! The base 300hp V-6 actually gets more MPG than the TL.

Using the OP logic we can surmise a Hyundai Sonata or even a Honda Accord is not an outrageous comparison to the TL then for much less. It offers most of the same features and even things like heated rear seats with not much less performance.

Seriously, comparing a Porsche Panamera?

saturno_v

I do not think 4G owners "feel" the need to justify anything....at least personally I don't.

I did...for both...did you??

Maybe so.....but the two cars stops within the same distance (well, 3 feet gap) in the C&D road test (70-0) with the Panamera having the advantage of much larger tires....

Really?? Fact: The Panamera 3.6 4 weight about 300 lbs more than the fully loaded TL Sh-AWD (identical size)

At double the price....

As we said before, we were comparing the base Panamera....the option list is something you have to dearly pay for, it does not come for free...

From a market segment standpoint you are absolutely right....from a functional/performance/tech spec standpoint they are comparable.

False....fact again, the C&D observed fuel consumption for both is 21 MPG.

Really same logic?? Are you sure?? Let's see, a fully loaded Sonata (which does not even have a V6 option) or a fully loaded V6 Honda Accord still do not have the same performance as the TL SH-AWD, they do not even offer the AWD option (never mind a torque vectoring one) and they cost much more than half the price of the TL.

Aman

Me too but the warnings are noted.

I think at this point it's best to agree to disagree I don't think the Panamera 3.6 is worth its MSRP, BUT I do think it's worth much more than the TL SH-AWD.

LessisBestmakingendsmeet

The base Panamera has a price of $74,000. No one is comparing these vehicles. No one cares if they do 0-60 in the same time and have the same length. Its just like people saying "oh its a 5 series competitor for less" ... and again no one else is making those comparisons.

You are using one testing source to validate your feelings but then throw out the window the EPA and their figures in regards to MPG?

Function and tech? You don't want to go there with Porsche and the Panamera. For once the engineering process for the sedan is second to none, its not built alongside the Accord nor based on anything. It is a Panamera.

The Panamera is far more technologically superior and is RWD with optional AWD with yes Torque vectoring. The top speed is 160mph. The engine has Direct injection. It offers a sport mode. It offers 18-20" tires. It offers cermanic brakes and base brakes are 6 piston up front, 4 in the rear with larger brakes which helps fade. It has PASM. PDCC is optional. The safety is also second to none in regards to structure and airbags. It has bi-xexon lights and headlight washers. Daytime LEDs and LEds inside. Hood, doors and fenders made of aluminum and the top of the tailgate. Tailgate is automatic. Diffusers and an adaptive spoiler. More cargo room, more fuel capacity. It has park assit. More power seat adjustments. Adaptive Cruise is optional. Ventilated seats front/rear are optional as 4 way climate control and a Burmester sound system. We haven't even touched the real option sheet yet!

Numbers do not tell it all. So we should just compare all cars with similar 0-60 times? The Panamera is a breathtaking engineering effort. Please go to your local Porsche dealer and drive one.

saturno_v

The Panamera 3.6 4 base cost 79K

Tested fuel consumption is the same...there is no "feelings"...it is the same.

What are the different "engineering processes" between Honda and Porsche?? Care to elaborate?? I suspect you confuse "engineering process" with sticker price....I can tell you that there is enormous sophistication in the design of a simple Toyota Prius....Yes the TL is built based of the Accord (the best platform in its class), the Panamera 3.6 uses a VW derived engine....

Nope, Torque Vectoring (PTV Plus) is an option, part of the PDCC package...6K option....and in order to get it you have to get the Adaptive Air Suspension package (another 4K option)

Ceramic brakes are a 8k option. And before you can get it you have to select another option from a menu of choices (more $$$)


Both options, not standard

There are not offical safety ratings that I can pull out for the Panamera, the TL is top rated, including in the newest rollover tests.

Cargo room is the same, the Panamera is a 4 seater while the TL is 5.

You are including options, some VERY expensive ones.....a fully loaded TL has a more sophisticated stereo, bluetooth is standard and others...

Do you think that a longer option list make a car necessarily better??

Yes you can build a very impressive Panamera...it would cost you north of 140K though....

My number comparison was not limited to a 0-60 time....detailed numbers (acceleration, braking, roadholding, noise level) do not tell all but they tell a lot....the TL road manners and performance received only praise in the press, on every count (braking, steering, balance)

Never test one but I sat in one...not very impressed in that price range (except for the S and the amazing Turbo)...I would go somewhere else if I was shopping in that segment, I do not like the style of the car anyway.

Do I think the Panamera is a technically excellent car?? Absolutely yes.....but I would never buy a 6 cylinder sedan for that money....there are simply much more cost effective great cars in that segment (6 cylinder sport sedans) out there...the TL, the 535i, the A6 3.0T.....

cp3117

Well said . Yourself, "Mycar" and "Aman" have all made great (and more importantly logical) points. This thread is entertaining and comical and at first I thought the comparison was just for entertainment value but as "Aman" mentioned it seems the OP actual believes the 4G is better than the Panamera because of the manipulated facts.

The 4G is barely classified as a midsize car, while the Panamera is classified as a Large car and designed to compete with vehicles like the 7 series, A8, Bentley's, Maserati's etc.

You can do this fact manipulating with just about any vehicle depending on whatever you want to try and prove. I went for fun to the same site as the OP's and picked two vehicles off of the top of my head in the same "Large Car" category according to the EPA. These are the FACTS. (<<<you must say that because now everything is obviously valid )

Ford Taurus SHO vs Maserati Quattroporte.

Cost $43,000 vs $135000

weight 4346 vs 4626

tires 245/45 20" vs 245/40 19"

Braking 70-0 174 vs 163

Skidpad .84g vs .83g

0-60 5.2s vs 5.3s

0-100 12.8 vs 12.8

1/4 Mile 13.7 vs 13.9

I thought this was funny so I then looked at Ford's previous manufactuer that they use to own and compared the Aston Martin Rapide even though it is in a smaller EPA category than the other two.

Ford Taurus SHO vs Aston Martin Rapide

Cost $43,000 vs $210000

weight 4346 vs 4476

tires 245/45 20" vs 245/40ZR 20"

Braking 70-0 174 vs 165

Skidpad .84g vs .95g

0-60 5.2s vs 4.8s

0-100 12.8 vs 11.0s

1/4 Mile 13.7 vs 13.3s


As you can see the Ford product is a third of the cost of the Maserati and very similar performance (some cases better) The Aston Martin does overall have better numbers (it obviously should considering the drivetrain difference)but is also roughly $170000 more......Are the Aston and Maserati really worth it??

And lets not forget the other standard sentence we always use around here. Reliability, Resale, Crash Test ratings etc. The Ford is the same if not better in all of those areas too, so the Ford Taurus SHO must be the better vehicle and Value.

Disclaimer: I know all of this should be in RED font.

None of this was a shot against the OP or others here as I assume this thread was mostly for a comical comparison. As Aman said in another post though, it seems at times the OP and others actual think otherwise.

compewterbleu

One word, refinement.

winstrolvtec

I think some of you guys are missing the context and a few of the details from earlier on in the post. Yes the pricing is worlds apart but that doesn't mean the car and it's content is as far away as the price suggests. No one is categorically comparing these cars but the price should not necessarily dictate that.

A BASE Panamera is likely being bought by someone who should be buying something cheaper but just has to have the badge. Anyone who really can afford it would get at least the V8 and mostly loaded as mentioned earlier. What is being said here is that many would rather keep their TL's than purchase that particular model Panamera for that price and with nothing added based on how it compares.

I don't know why this is being made into a generlized comparison and of other Panamera variants, that's not what's being discussed. It seems some can't focus on specifics of the discussion yet when we do there is probably not a person here who disagrees whether you agree with the comparison or not, take Aman for example in post #71. So I am not sure what the opposing arguments really are about.

I agree that no one is making the comparison to the Porsche and the 5 series but the TL has been mentioned alongside the 5 series in plenty of genuine automotive publications and reviews, besides Acura aiming it at the base mid levels, much like the CTS which shares in the same concept and is not very different. So while it isn't a true competitor, that doesn't necessarily mean it isn't at all.

I don't know if that means it should or shouldn't be done for the Panamera as well because it's farther way in price, position, and EPA size category but I do not need an automotive publication to tell me how the TL SH compares to a Base Panamera.

saturno_v

Did I ever said that the TL was a better car?? Better value fo rth emoney is different than "better" Can you point where I said that??

Facts are facts by definition and cannot be manipulated


What is "classified" here is not relevant...the TL and the Panamera are identical in size (length and width) almost up to the inch...unfortunately Porsche did not relase detailed interior measurements, it would be interesting to compare.
The Panamera has a 5 inches longer wheelbase but it has a longitudinal arranged engine.

Your comment about the TL being "barely a midsize sedan" is either disingenuous or ill-informed since many publications said that the TL is almost a full size car...just look at one...it barely made it into midsize because it is too large not because it is too small...

That the Panamera competes with the S Class, a 7 Series or an A8 is your opinion...they definitely compete from a price and prestige price point but the Panamera is really a 4 door coupe (seating for 4) a far cry for the cavernous interiors of the cars you mentioned.....it competes better with the Maserati Quattroporte and Aston Rapide...I suspect you are not familiar with the roomy back seat of an S Class or a 7 Series....


Now you are cooking and (almost) got my point.

Your 2 examples, while conceptually close are not as close compared to the comparison I draw between the TL SH-AWD and the Panamera 3.6 4.....you took a 6 cylinder car and pitted against V-8 and a V-12 cars with bigger displamente engines and more power, 10 feet braking distance difference is not 2 or 3, .10g gap on the skidpad, accessory levels, etc....let's say that my example is closer than yours, however you raised a very good point which was exactly my argument so thank you for bringing that up!!

What in economics is called the "law of diminshing returns"
At some point you reach an optimal equlibrium where the necessary inputs to obtain incremental improvements start to become quite large.

Reality is that today you do not need much more than a fully loaded Accord, Altima o Camry to have a quiet, roomy, quick, plush luxurious ride..


You can "feel" much much more the 15K difference gap between a fully loaded Accord and a Hyundai Accent than the over 20K between that Accord and let's say an Infiniti M37...the higher you go the more money you have to spend to perceive substantial differences....

Decades ago, it took 20 years for air conditioning and leather interiors to percolate from luxury cars to standard cars.....the ABS braking system took 10.....within 6 years of its early introduction the GPS started to be available even on a VW Golf trim!

Xenon, bluetooth intgration, mp3 and i-Pod connectivity, etc.. spread like wildfire from the luxury realm to everyday vehicles.....for car manufacturers differentiating with luxury and features is becoming increasingly difficult and costly....its very competitive out there....


The point raised was not comical at all...maybe "amusing" but definitely serious...and I see that your got the sense of it with your additional examples....


P.S.

You tell me why reliability should not be taken in consideration when someone buy a car?? Do you get your money for free or you work for a living??

Reliability is a measure of quality...maybe one of the most important one....lack of reliability is what destroyed Jaguar (and other brands as well)

saturno_v

I remember when some of the "bashers" said almost categorically that the TL was not a 5 Series competitor and was never intended to be so...then I posted the Acura Press document where the company states very well that the TL was intended as competitor for both the 3 Series and the 6 cylinder 5 Series......silence after that....

Many magazines do not draw the comparison only based on price....for example, C&D uses all the time to make this kind of comparo...."What car can I buy with, let's say, 40k"??

docboy

+1

Very well said.

From a purely practical and economical stand point, one should just buy an Accord or Civic (or its equivalent) and drive it to its death for 200k miles.

But as "enthusiasts" we tend to look for something more. As those lucky enough to spend $44k+ on a car in this miserable economy, we start to place more value on our money. Just how much we are willing to pay... and is [insert feature X here] even worth that much, is the big subjective question.

I have an uncle who has a very successful accounting firm. He can easily afford a MB E/S class. But he buys and drives Toyotas (drove a Rav4 for well over 150+k miles until he gave it to his daughter, bought a 1989 $10,000 Corolla until his mom in law trashed it, and just recently bought a Highlander) for the very same reason saturn0_v stated above.

saturno_v

As personal opinion, when I got the TL I could see a tangible difference beteween let's say a fully loaded V6 Accord or Camry and the car we 4th gen. owners drive....I felt I got A LOT for the extra money...increased sportiness, the top rated AWD system, more luxurious interiors and very high end accessories....I could not "feel" the same amount of gap between the above mentioned Accord and other cars in the same price range of the TL...I take no offense at all in being considered a "luxury value buyer"...