DrewSRX

October 2009 - Entry-Level Sales

1. 3 - 8,239
2. ES - 4,413
3. A4/5 - 4,123
4. C - 4,122
5. G - 3,889
6. IS - 3,162
7. CTS - 2,921
8. TL - 2,512
9. MKZ - 1,661
10. 9-3 - 248
11. S60 - 26

dtc5

Wow, the Oct sale is hurting quite a bit. This can't be good news for Honda. Oh well, good news for me though. Less people on the road with one.

Edit: Where is TSX rank? TL is not really entry level for Acura anymore...

KeithL

WOW I am surprised the G is kicking butt the way it is going into its 4th year!

bagbklyn

Eventhough the TL isn't doing great the only one that can truly be its competitor I believe is the CTS. And even the CTS you go to their website that have like 10 different options to purchase the car. Acura nicely kept it simple for us. All the others have so many variations which includes wagons and coupes. I wish they would break it down a little more instead if grouping it.

cp3117

Thanks for the numbers DrewSRX.

If there is a positive, at least the TL had a slight increase in sales over last month.

After at least 2.5 months since the 2010 TL's started arriving at dealerships I think its rather obvious that these inventory theroies are false for reasons why the TL isnt selling.

IMO, I think style and pricing are the huge issues. The 4G's sales are still roughly half of what they where last year at this time. Without the 3G's sales to fall back on from last year, it seems like there is obviously something else wrong rather than the economy and inventory.

Here in Canada the TL's and all the Acura lineup hasnt been selling well with huge decreases in monthly numbers. This month Acura sales where up +79% but largely due to huge incentives of up to $5500 off TL's, $9000 of MDX's etc. It seems like the car needs to have heavy incentives in order to move the brand.

Kingmeow

Curious on the 3 numbers. Are they out right purchases or includes leases? I know a TON of people that own 3's as leases. True though that it moves car off the dealers' lots.

TSX69

Leases are included in sales #s ... as are fleet sales.

The TL #s are definitely not good but they are not horrid either (see the RL for that). I hope that Acura will bring changes to next year's model, including the 6 speed auto.

winstrolvtec

The TL is down nearly half compared to October's monthly sales of last year where they posted a 22% increase from the year before (07). I looks worse because they had a great month in Oct of last year (08), mostly due to the introduction of the new gen but also a little from the 3G final clearance. YTD the TL is still fairly well off, as is the brand, which is probably very profitable with all the parts and platform sharing. BMW doubles most brands sales, not to mention global sales and the MINI group and they can barely post a profit.

The theory that pricing and style has much to do with it is also not 100% correct as the TL sales are only more recently down (for some strange reason) for this year and 08 inventory has been gone for some time even before that.

If we still insist on comparing the TL with entry sales then realize that this is now two Acura vehicles sharing sales in the same segment because of the TSX, where all the competition except Lexus has one vehicle. Another reason why Lexus is the best selling luxury brand in the states and Acura not far behind in fourth.

The TL is down 29% compared to last year's YTD at this point and that is not much different than most of the others that also sold well in the first place. Obviously that already accounts for any boost from the remaining 3G. For comparison, the IS is down 28%, the C - 29.7%, the 3 - 22.5%.

Acura is no better or worse off with the 4G sales, yes it is a new model therefore should do slightly better but it is also cross shopped in brand more than in the past and any other vehicle listed, having 3 sedans for 2 segments and TL #'s are strictly sedan based sales and not over inflated from wagons, convertibles, coupes, etc. When viewed in this manner there is no distinct advantage in any sedan as far as YTD sales go with exception to the ES and C class. Maybe the 3 but the way they "group" sales it can't be told based on most available information. It is no coincidence that the strictly sedan based YTD sales of the G and TL are also among the lowest and most brands have to offer incentive to move any luxury vehicles right now.

TSX69

TL: 2,512; -44.2%
G37 Sedan: 2,448; -7.5%

Just noting that if you take out the coupe, the TL outsold the G37 by a small margin ... not that it says much but it paints a more accurate picture.

BleuM&M

Someone needs to plant a stake in the S60. The 2011 restyle would need to be a resurrection from the dead. Does Volvo have the juice for that??

dominik331

+1
Exactly what I've been saying. BMW 3 series has like 13 variations including sedans, coupes, convertible, wagons, xdrive, etc...

BigWopHH

This article has the TL outselling some cars that are listed higher in the list above...

http://autos.aol.com/gallery/best-se...ng-luxury-cars

VTEC Racer

They don't even have a picture of the correct TL.

DeMAN

I see the Buick Lacrosse and the Hyundai Genesis was left off the list

Lacrosse- 3298
Genesis-1896

Look for the Lacrosse to really kick butt going forward even outselling the CTS.

dtc5

^ I'm surprised at how well the Lacrosse did, but then again it is the only car on this particular list that has a trim with a MSRP that starts well below $30k. (the 9-3 doesn't count as lux )

GrigioTL

Acura may be losing its way! The TL is the newest one to hit the market and it is a shame that four year old vehicles are outselling it. A vehicle that was once was the second best selling entry luxury sedan is basically struggling to stay in the top ten. In comparison, the MDX, TSX and even the slow selling RDX were all up in sales for October. Acura sales are down more than any other luxury brand for 2009.

Acura officials have said in interviews they made those dramatic style changes to the TL because customers told them they wanted to be noticed and stand out. Time will tell but the vehicle may standing out for the wrong reasons. The TL's driving characteristics and technology is probably best in class but its aesthetic features are overshadowing the finer points. Acura was the first of the Japanese brands to hit the market but it has less brand equity than Lexus and Infiniti.

Even more unsettling is the company's decision to drop plans for Tier 1 luxury status for a more "sensible" and environmental approach. Why not go buy a Honda Insight then? The clock is ticking and the company needs a serious and quick game-changer.

Izzy-Type-S

iTrader: (1)

This is why after looking at the 4th gen, I bought an 08 Type S.

bagbklyn

Its very scary that a company says it isn't striving for tier 1. That's like a surgeon saying i'm a surgeon but i'm not trying to be the best surgeon I can be. Acura should have chosen it's words differently. Not that I would ever buy one but go to the mazda webpage and get a fully equipped mazda 6. It's the same exact thing you would get in a TL. Of course minus the badge and the AWD option and reliability. What i'm saying in essence should Acura even consider itself a luxury brand if it isn't go after tier 1? I think it should now state itself as an upscale brand. Drop the acura put honda in the front and call is a day, the way hyundai did with the genesis. It could have been its own luxury brand but they kept it under the hyundai name plate.

Colin

I think people are either misunderstanding things (nothing new here when it comes to Acura communication and not necessarily our fault either) or twisting it to fit their agenda.

Ito said (with my thoughts below):

"a certain level of confusion" [about Acura]
(No shit. Acura is struggling for a unified identity, it's good that someone finally recognized this)

"We are in the midst of big changes. We've changed the direction of research and development."
(Nowhere does this say 'no Tier 1'. All is says is they're taking research elsewhere)

"I see the future of Acura as a merger of BMW and Audi--something between high technology and high performance."
(Let's dismiss the Bentley comments since they were never realistic. The real targets have always been BMW, Lexus and now Audi. I see no strategic change here, especually if the intelligentsia here consider these brands as "tier 1") )

"low-growth period of developing new products."
(Not good news. Earlier we were promised a new or revised model every 6 months. This now seems to be pushed to 1 year)

"We were thinking that we could come up with glamorous, gorgeous products that would sell. Now, our premium products will be expressed in advanced environmental technologies, rather than glamorous things attached to the product"
(Perhaps the most provocative statement. If 'glamorous' means "V-10" then it makes sense. They want to replace this as a status symbol with something different ie "advanced environmental technologies")

winstrolvtec

Anyone care to define what Tier 1 means and how it is actually applied to an automobile? Does that make it the most affordable, reliable, safest, most fuel efficient, or performance capable? Does it mean it has the highest resale value? The answers are no and therefore why should anybody care if they label it Tier 1 or not? Perception maybe, and that is all the Tier 1 title really is.

An affordable luxury brand such as Acura and for the most part Infiniti are what is needed and highly sought after no matter the economic conditions. There will always be a market for that. Because it is a value or budget product it will never really be viewed as Tier 1 and there is nothing wrong with that. I feel really bad for Acura cause no matter what they do they can't win. If they go Tier 1 the cost of slightly better material and build quality will be reflected in the price and everyone would complain how expensive it is and how it was just as good a product before but for less.

The G sedan is not outselling the TL despite it's refresh, 330 HP, RWD and 7AT that everyone bashes Acura for not having and the A4 has sold a little over a thousand units more compared to the TL which includes the wagon and convertible models in it's sales and it is no older than the TL.

Infiniti is down more than Acura for 09 and Acura outsells both Audi and Infiniti as a brand in the states. They are ranked fourth behind Lexus, BMW and MB but because Infiniti has V8 and RWD and Audi is a so called Tier 1 no one has anything to say against them. I am not detracting from the TL and how it is selling compared to the 3G, but other than controversial styling there is nothing wrong with it as a vehicle or how it competes and more importantly it’s not the 3G so let’s get over it.

The best part is how people question Acura as a luxury brand when Infiniti, and up until very recently, even Lexus products were and are just rebadged Nissan and Toyota products. I know Honda shares platforms but really what does that have to do with the anything except what is in someone's head? Acura has 4 exclusive NA models and 1 model trim, some of which were just introduced to the Chinese market, but no other luxury brand can say that.

Sonor Kid 2

Winstrolvtec,
It's amusing to see your constant defense of the 4G TL and the numbers, the car isn't selling well, it is what it is.
The design is the reason, there are other great things about the 4G but if people don't feel the car is attractive it isn't going to sell no matter what's inside.
If you include the LaCrosse into the numbers below the TL falls another notch, almost every car in it's class is outselling it!
I don't car if those numbers include coupes, wagons or cabs, the fact remains that people are moving away from the Acura brand. I'm guessing some of these people were Acura customers, who cares if they bought an G coupe or sedan, they didn't buy a TL.
I just traded my 2008 TL for an Audi a 2009 A4 cabrio, I looked at the 4G TL and really wanted to buy one but it just doesn't appeal to me right now so I went to something else all together, which is a shame because had this new TL been a more pleasing design I would have bought one in a heartbeat.
The fact that Acura offers an extremely limited line up of cars isn't helping their sales figures either.
I'm a huge fan of Acura but they have really screwed things up for themselves in my opinion.

1. 3 - 8,239
2. ES - 4,413
3. A4/5 - 4,123
4. C - 4,122
5. G - 3,889
6. IS - 3,162
7. CTS - 2,921
8. TL - 2,512
9. MKZ - 1,661
10. 9-3 - 248
11. S60 - 26

bagbklyn

You know what's funny type into google "tier 1 luxury" and tell me what shows up? Every single result on the first page has Acura trying to be tier 1 or acura abandons tier 1 ambition. The bigger question would be to ask acura what is tier 1 because at 1 point they were trying to be it. I think Acura has limited itself, there aren't options. You don't have a true flagship vehicle, you don't have any groundbreaking technology at this point. I think if Acura doesn't do something really soon they are going to lose a lot more customers in the future. I for one took off the front grille to mod it and it is so much bigger then it looks on the car. Acura has to do something with the grille during the MMC or it will get ugly for the company. I think they need to clean house at the Acura Design center in torrence. Anyone with an eye for design would have seen that the grille was too overpowering. Save that grille for the MDX makeover or something. Hopefully Acura will get its act together soon. Honda division is doing much better, what the hell and where the hell does the crosstour fit in, so what if toyota has the Venza, you will have the ZDX. It seems that Honda corp isn't communicating within itself.

And yeah the last TL was a rebadged accord and so was the TSX but look how well it sold so if it worked why reinvent the wheel?

winstrolvtec

Sonor, I will never take away from the fact that the TL is not selling well compared to the 3G and some of it's competition and it is partly due to controversial styling but it is silly how most just assume it is the only reason. I have openly admitted that in the past and in my above post but I will point out where people make false assumptions based incorrectly used information. There are plenty of other luxury competitors not selling well and even as well but nobody criticizing how they look. That is the most important part to remember in this ongoing discussion and than we can factor in for other reasons why it struggles.

Month to month sales are only a good representation of how the product is moving right now, just like everyone and everything else, how it does and how it is doing on the year is the most important thing to look at. It paints the whole picture.

If you want to look at coupes, convertibles and wagons and say those cars are outselling the TL, be my guest but it's not really the right way to compare individual types of models. I could also say it doesn't matter how many A4/5's, G coupe or sedans they sell more than the TL for a given month in any type of model, Acura is still outselling Audi and Infiniti as a brand year to date and highly profitable nonetheless.

Since we are "grouping" to decide what is selling, I will point out again that Acura has 2 cars competing in entry sales because of price similarities or you can look at it as 3 cars for 2 segments. No luxury brand other than Lexus can say the same. So maybe we should also "group" the TSX and TL sales together. Doing pretty well now, right? How can you say people are moving away? Maybe moving away from the TL but I think I have provided enough information to prove that people have not really moved away from the brand just because sales are down or simply because you did or that I am not.

I have owned 2 3G TL's and I don't own a 4G yet either, just to be clear, and it is better in every way including looks IMO and with a more capable platform, finally it competes where it should. Fortunately I can shop everything from an entry to mid level luxury car and the TL stands out the most, all things considered. Perhaps if I was looking at the FWD model I might reconsider as there is now twice as much competition for that kind of car and being that the FWD is the volume seller because of that most of the sales will come up short but they still would have come up short, maybe not as much, despite what it looked like.

Economy, Increased competition in the FWD luxury and pre luxury market, direction of the TSX, TL and even Accord, size, perceived price increase, increased cross shopping within the brand, some recent inventory issues, and of course style, which is only one of many and I am sure I have left some stuff out.

All is not lost, they can tweak the style plus they have bigger things planned as well. As bad as people make it seem this is not the end of the road and as ugly as everyone makes the the TL out to be it still sells reasonably well, it's not as if it is selling like the RL and more importantly they still profit from it.

Sonor Kid 2

Wins,
I respect your opinion and your points are always well thought out but in this case I think's simple and you're making it complicated.
The design is the major factor and the TSX and TL are different cars so that point doesn't make sense.
If the TL had a coupe, wagon and cabrio then it would be apples to apples but they don't and it's hurting their sales as a result.
Let's face it if I don't care fot the TL what are my choices? Either an outdated ugly RL which doesn't even count, a 4 cylinder TSX or a way over priced 6 cylinder TSX, not much to choosee from.
The numbers have spoken the last two months period, we'll see if they get any better, I guarantee you they won't.
Go on some of the other car forums, the TL is getting bashed quite a bit.

docboy

I swear it must be all the internet bandwagon.

I admit, the TL's exterior styling is not for anyone and is bold. Last (and only) time I bought a car based on its exterior (Lexus IS) it failed miserably.

The more I look at my TL, the more I appreciate it's sleek lines and "futuristic" design. Comparing it to my neighbors' C/E class, Gs, and 3 series, it truly stands out. I live in a fairly affluent neighborhood, where people can be known to be openly picky and brutally honest about fashion, style, and design. I have had MANY compliments and praise about the TL's design. I have had NONE, ZERO, NADA negatives or bashings about its exterior.

Having said that, IMHO, the 4G TL's interior and driving experience is second to none, besting its rivals A4, A6, 3/5 series, G, etc... I spend most of time inside driving and enjoying its power, comfort, and solid ride.

What's there to complain about?

winstrolvtec

Sonor, thank you, and you the same, but I think in the eyes of most everday consumers all the style bashing is correct and the TSX and TL are very different cars but in the eyes of Honda/Acura neither is really the case.

I agree, if the TL had wagons, coupes, and other model variants it would be apples to apples but that doesn't mean it is apples to apples the way it is compared now. The TSX is the closest thing to being that for the TL and they share some of the same market, very similar to that of a coupe or wagon version of the same car.

In a way it is Acura's model variant of the TL or vice versa, however you want to look at it. If the A5 (for example) is simply a coupe A4 and essentially also a different car and it's sales are often grouped as is the wagon and convertible why can't the TSX can be viewed as a smaller sedan variant of the TL while also being a different car? Is it that much different? I don't think so, especially when there is an extra model or variant in the line up anyway.

I do think that Acura's line is limited but as far as sedans go it's not. There is nothing wrong with not liking what Acura offers, that is not the point. While they don't have a full sized, they do offer a smaller compact/mid and 2 full mids. That is three sedans to choose from and that is not really much different than other luxury brands but if you want a coupe or convertible, maybe a wagon, then Acura's selection sucks, no doubt.

Last month actually increased from the month before and the fact that the car declined more recently probably has little to do with the style, what did it get ugly all of a sudden? Coincidentally it dropped when inventory levels were said to be a concern in some areas, obviously not all, and picked up when they started rolling out with the 10's. With overall sales I would attribute style to a degree, but recently dropping and picking up again is evidence of inventory issues.

Well aware of the bashing out there, look how much it happens here. Despite some of the Acura bias on Acurazine, other car forums rarely have a basis for anything. Generally, people are clueless and just mouth off with opinions and no information or stats used to substantiate anything they say and it is always the same few people trash talking, much like here. For the most part members keep it objective and as neutral as possible here. That doesn't mean anything we say is right or wrong, it's just that it has been given a little more thought than "Me no like", "Ugly piece of shit", or "Everyone else likes/hates it so I do too".

And the other thing about style is it can have a huge negative affect or make a large positive one and sometimes both. Look at the early Bangle designs, especially the current 5, which also was a new model design of a very popular model generation, much like the 3G. The 3G even looked like it and was stated by Acura to have been modeled from it. Doesn't mean this will or will not be the case for the 4G but that has not yet been decided, as time will tell and because of that it doesn't matter what anyone's opinion of it is or what they think or how they feel about it.

davelien

I'm pretty new to this forum. Does this discussion come up every month? Has either side every "won" this argument? ;-)

YetiTL

Answers: Yes and No!

Wlcome to Azine!

GrigioTL

Ok, Acura is an "affordable luxury brand" but why do sales continue to decline so drastically if luxury buyers are looking for so much affordability? BMW may not be the "affordable luxury brand" but the 3 series outsells any other luxury vehicle. If Acura really wants to be the affordable luxury, then one could go buy the new Ford Taurus or Hyundai Genesis not a luxury nameplate like Acura. Many of the non-luxury nameplates now offer so called affordable luxury. The new Ford Taurus for example has blind spot information system, adaptive cruise control, HID headlights, push button start, rain sensing wipers and reverse sensing system - does that not seem like plenty of affordable luxury. Acura is competing in a different league, so they need to step their game. Don't get me wrong, I'm a fan of Acura but the company seems to be dissapointing customers.

Colin

Probably because the brand has traditionally been a high value brand, but the pricing of the base TL and V-6 TSX are not perceived as a 'good deal' by the general public. Seems easy to see that if you're an "affordable" brand that is not affordable, sales will suffer.

(Cj)

That was funny.

bagbklyn

I think Acura also has to look at innovations. Beside the TL and ZDX does acura have anything thing on the horizon? The competitors are going to start eating the little sales that acura has. Now I have always been a honda person but after the TL if you ask someone what is there option many would probably say not much. ZDX is an oversized TL AWD with cooled seats for like $5,000 more.

Acura I believe has been missing the ball and many see that. I think its time they got a coupe back into the line up, The s2000 shouldn't have been a honda it should have been an acura and acura should have used that car to build on its RWD success. Enough with the FWD, get the RWD for at least your flagship vehicle. And lets get this thing rolling. Affordable brand is great when your breaking sales records but when you are in the middle to the bottom of the pack something you are doing is wrong.

ssim3

Not to mention that the SHO has a much more advanced drivetrain than the TL. The terrible styling and antiquated drive train are hurting the TL.

Colin

Everyone at Acura knows that. They also know if they another CL the market won't embrace it. IMO, this is why whatever coupe is in the works has to do something different. Let's say it is to be AWD, well till now, there was no 6MT to go with SH-AWD. This alone could have held things up.

The S2000 WAS supposed to be an Acura. My 2000 S2000 owners manual had several references to "Maintaining your Acura...." It was an 11th hour decision to move it to Honda. Also, it is worth understanding that the S2000 was NOT a flexible chassis. The car is built around the engine and is not made with interchangeable subframes like the Accord or Civic chassis. People should get the thought of other products built on the chassis out of their heads. It was never designed with that flexibility in mind.

Sonor Kid 2

It's great to see all of this Acura passion, I've been a Honda guy for 20 years and I'm 40.
I've seen quite a bit from these two brands in Honda and Acura over the years, I guess I'm just disappointed with what I see right now.

Shift_Acura

Couldnt have said it better myself. The only thing "affordable" in the Acura lineup is a 201 hp FWD sedan. (and it can only be considered affordable since its cheaper than 3 series,C-class,G, A4 and IS)

TLNV

I have 4 friends and 2 neighbors that will not drive anything other than a "Beemer". All of them acknowledge after sitting in both my 08 MDX Sport Tech Ent and my 10 TL Tech AWD that my two Acura's have definitely done it right and just feel better than their "Beemers".

They have all remarked on how much I got for my money over their "Beemers" however........ they all said "but, they are not BMW's". Three of them flat out said that they drive the "BMW" because of its status. My best friend drives an X5 and he HATES it but drives it because it is an "BMW" Ummmm ok....

Could Acura have done some things different... sure. But in the end, after I test drove the ML320, X5, Audi Q7, 5series, A6, C&E class, VW CC, I was hands down amazed at how much better the MDX and TL were in terms of comfort, bang for the buck, and in most cases additional leg, elbow and shoulder room etc.

I am brand new to Acura with these two vehicles and have owned over the years, MB, BMW, Volvo and Audi to the tune of 13 different vehicles over the various product lines, so I am not making these statements as an Acura Homer.

I am stunned by how much my TL has grown on me, so much so that beyond Audi's grille, I really appreciate the design of the Acura's that much more. It is refreshing to not be seeing yourself in the mirror every time you turn your head.

Contrary to the majority on here, every single person that has seen up close and ridden in my two Acura's have said they cannot believe how nice they are and how bland it makes their own cars feel. Now take that for what its worth, but I have yet to have anyone tell me that they dont like either one, in fact I am shocked at how many thumbs up and "your car is gorgeous" I have received for my TL.

*****Donning flame suit for the inevitable *****

docboy

+10000

My sentiments and thoughts EXACTLY.

Pete2010

Fixed that for ya
Unless they're riding a bike, they're in a Bimmer.

The only BMW I could ever see myself buying is an M3 with that big beafy V8... But then again for that fully loaded price, I might as well get a GT-R, it would smoke the crap outta that schnitzel-box.

TLNV

LOL actually was done on purpose as a sort of :squintfaw to the Ultimate Driving Machine" and its sheeples mentality of "Status".