wow this thread is still rolling! good job Mercedes.

 

. . . and bad job Acura!

 

They've done studies into automatic responses which we all have developed to help easily parse out information. For example, there is an automatic response to something being priced higher than other comparable goods as being of better quality. Marketers know how to exploit all of this.

From Wiki -

"In Influence, Robert Cialdini's book about social psychology and influence tactics, Cialdini explains how common automatic response patterns are in human behavior, and how easily they can be triggered, even with erroneous cues.[1] He describes an experiment conducted by social psychologists Langer, Chanowitz, and Blank which illustrates how compliant people will be with a request if they hear words that sound like they are being given a reason, even if no actual reason is provided."

You're smart people here. I'd suggest you read this book to discover how the vast machine understands us better than we understand ourselves and exploits that for gain. And this book was written before all of the internet and all of the data gathering done by Google, FB, etc.



I said it once do not ever underestimate the power of the branding process and of a brand.

 

Problem solved--all Acura has to do is price the new TL at $80,000. Should sell like hotcakes!

 

lol But you know it's true. Put Tiffany on a product and people will pay more for it than they would pay for the same product from Target. Companies prey on our hubris. People on this forum and others are the outliers. Most people don't care to spend the time doing research.

Wow 600 posts exactly.

 

Let's be real...plenty of people have been ripped off by buying a genuine Louis Vuitton bag from a street vendor. That says less about peoples naivety and more about certain brands just carry a price tag. Nothing wrong with that.

But to claim all BMW is, is marketing, is just laughable as then that analogy can be carried right up to apple. Oh, the fools that buy an iphone when less expensive and similarly functioned devices are available. (I don't have an iphone by the way)

That I don't buy into this marketing b/s shows in my preferences. I'd rather have a BMW but at the moment bought a G37. However, in a past life I bought Armani suits...were they worth the price? You betcha.

 

Just saw a Motorweek episode with the CLA. My opinion of it has improved, but still don't like the looks from the rear, the bolt-on appearance of nav, etc. I was kind of surprised it could get to 60 in 6.6s, though. I thought it'd be more sluggish than that. My fault for not researching that. lol.

Now I'll let you guys get back to the rocket science that is this bitchfest.

 

I am being real. I provide links to studies to support my assertions about brands and auto responses -- you provide opinions and hollering. BMW is marketing -- Bavarian Marketing Works -- along with easy lease terms that give every one a chance to be seen in one. Now that may not have always been so. But the Lexus IS350 Fsport beats the BMW with most car mags, is the Esquire car of the year, and the 3 series will still outsell it even though most agree it is now a watered down car -- with the traditional reliability issues.

BTW, I own an iPhone and I only bought it for the status it imparts due to the fact all of the people I do business with use iPhones. And I am a fool for buying one for the status but a least I'm humble enough and reality based enough to know that I'm a fool.

See the Apple brand -- the most valuable brand in the world -- has spent years creating this effect -- people who use Apple products are better off, they're creative, they value a device that looks well crafted and expensive, and they believe it separates them from the pack. To hell with the fact that it doesn't have features or screen size that a Galaxy has. But see I'm aware of this -- most people don't even think about why they need to be seen in a brand or wearing a brand and even they were -- they -- like us Apple owners will give up something other brand offer -- just to be seen owning it.

If you took a BMW and an Acura TL SH-AWD apart and broke them down to nuts, bolts, and epoxy -- do you really think the BMW pile is worth 10K more than the Acura pile? And I think it can be proven the 2013 SH-AWD would kick 2013 3 series butt on a track. Maybe not a straight line but on a track. I may be wrong but I think you can see my point.

 

Is a $30,000 watch "worth the price" over a $100 watch?

Like it or not, there is a image cachet that comes with owning a brand, be it BMW, Apple, Louis Vutton, Armani, etc... These brands can get a way with a higher price than their competitors. Is it ALL image? Probably not. Is there SOME sort of improvement/enhancement in their products? Probably.

But is it worth $xxxx more than their competitors? That's for you to decide.

 

So do you make the final decision on a car purchase via R&T. I don't.

I bolded some phrases, I think they are a little over the top and not very germane to the discussion. That apple products allows for more creativity..now really. Let's get the 3 series and TL on the Nurburing and see what happens.

As for how much a car is worth in raw materials; I grant you a Ferrari, Elantra, 3 series and TL probably has a similar raw material cost (although the Ferrari probably has some exotic materials), it's the industrial processes and R&D that makes the difference. BMW has a high R&D budget.

BMW is having a good year, which can't be explained by brand cachet. They must be producing products people want at the a price point people will pay for them. Is that in the studies?

There is only an image cachet if you allow there to be one. All of this take about status and prestige and cachet...they can't be taken. You can't take status or prestige..those who think they can are mistaken. I don't give status to automobiles. They are one of many tools in the tool chest of life.

I agree there is a cost associate to products. Coca-Cola costs more than shoprite cola. Excedrin costs more then CVS aspirin. Generic drugs cost less than OEM counterparts.

You pick, you decide.

To me the bottom line is, all the studies in the world can't explain why a successful company(apple, bmw) can induce people to buy their products at a premium when a lower priced (better: sic) equivalent product(q10, G4, tl) exists in the marketplace.

Good debate.

 

If you took a base TL apart & an AWD apart would the pile of AWD parts be worth $12,968 more than the base TL parts? You can make the same case with a Ferrari & Corvette made from exotic materials that do cost more.

You get into price per pound or per seat & you can't financially justify much more then a Civic or Corolla 95% of the time. Some of us did an exercise on another forum once factoring in the cost of high strength steel per pound & the spread from a small car to a big car was only a few hundred dollars for the hull.

I think you would be disappointed about the TL kicking anyone's butt. All the comparos were done on specifically tight handling courses about 1.1 mile. One of the two mags in their preamble said the tight course was to keep the two fast cars from running away with the event. Also in their words to keep the forums buzzing. Even playing to the strengths of the Audi & TL while taking away the G & 335’s speed advantage all four cars finished under a handkerchief within a few tenths of each other. If it had been on a course like the Car & Driver’s Lighting Laps at my clubs home track the 4.1 mile VIR the Audi & TL would be fading memories.

BTW I don’t think the TL has ever been invited to run in the LL series so there is no time for it at VIR as far as I know. There also was the issue of the TL running out of brakes with the pedal on the floor after one or two laps IIRC by R&T.

I have already closely followed a TL AWD through an decreasing radius on ramp turn & driven around him at the merge, the TL can’t pull enough lead in a corner especially driven by a non-pro to overcome it deficiency in acceleration.

It’s a lot like racing in my old Morgan+4 SS. At a tight 1-1.25 mile track I could hang with some civilian B-production Corvettes but at a bigger track like the old 2.85 mile Bridgehampton circuit out on Long Island they would eat my lunch & eventually lap me.

Should there be any doubts about this there are a lot of on ramps here for anyone who happens to be in the area. Could even do 2fers 335is & 135is vs. TL-AWD would be a fun chance for some lucky driver to kick my butt.

 

Sorry you took my post personally. It wasn't an attack on you. You'll notice I was specific -- 2013 -- you don't have that year. Your reference to the base TL and the SH-AWD simply reinforces my point about branding and cost -- it's true everywhere.

And lets not forget that the German auto worker is the highest paid in the world. Who pays for that and what corners are cut to make the Germans extremely profitable given each manufacturer is heavily tech efficient now? Ever wonder? Or is it simply built into the higher prices the Germans charge? I don't know the answer but I suspect their pile of parts cost about the same as the Acura pile of parts but it costs a lot more to assemble?

From Forbes -- "In 2010, Germany produced more than 5.5 million automobiles; the U.S produced 2.7 million. At the same time, the average auto worker in Germany made $67.14 per hour in salary in benefits; the average one in the U.S. made $33.77 per hour. Yet Germany’s big three car companies—BMW, Daimler (Mercedes-Benz ), and Volkswagen—are very profitable."

http://www.forbes.com/sites/frederic...twice-as-much/

 

See g37 you selected a phrase out of context. I'm disappointed. Here is the full sentence I wrote - "See the Apple brand -- the most valuable brand in the world -- has spent years creating this effect -- people who use Apple products are better off, they're creative, they value a device that looks well crafted and expensive, and they believe it separates them from the pack. To hell with the fact that it doesn't have features or screen size that a Galaxy has. But see I'm aware of this -- most people don't even think about why they need to be seen in a brand or wearing a brand and even they were -- they -- like us Apple owners will give up something other brand offer -- just to be seen owning it."

I'm not saying any of the above is true of people who own Apple products -- I'm just saying that's the power of a brand and that is the brand Job a master marketer created and that's the way he wanted people to feel about his products.

 

Notice that the badge knock also readily applies to Acura and from the same folks and furthermore, it's not reserved for any and all other luxury brands and models that are not Acura, just some questionable buys like a 320, low end to mid 328's and C300's, anything less than a moderately equipped CLA, low end 528's, etc, etc, you notice the trend and get the picture, I'm sure.

Do know that these are a significant portion of the sales, most of these popular models typically sell in the low to mid range of their price points, as do most. Considering all that is out there and available in these ranges from ALL CAR MAKES AND MANUFACTURERS, NOT JUST ACURA, what is the driving force behind the two to one and three to one sales we often see, when better or similarly priced cars (that again), are totally compatible and often with more features, performance, statistical reliability, etc, etc?

If it is the cars themselves please tell me, explain in detail, inquiring minds want to know. I'm not picking on anyone, it truly is an interesting discussion, if we can conclude that they truly are better in more ways than not, that's fine, I won't be losing sleep over it, just enjoy the subject and the perspectives, it's not about my car vs others and true arguments or differences, really.

That's my point, glad you brought it up, BLackacura bought a really nice Audi, a worthy successor to the TL he had IMO, notice it was not a baseline FWD A6 or middle of the road A4, any of the cars mentioned above, etc, etc. Do you not grasp the concept myself and others are speaking of?

As far as the latter of your posts, you do actually go on to agree with what is being said, and clearly by your own admittance, you can see that the whole badge thing applies to some brands and cars more than others, so why spin it as if it's a pro-Acura, anti-anything else campaign?

Regardless, you have been kind of making that point about members here for some time even when it is not really warranted and truth be told, most times it isn't warranted because many members who leave the brand still remain and are very complimentary of the group here because even though the majority own Acuras and 4G TL's, most still do like and appreciate all cars in general, are open minded, do keep tabs on lots of cars, enjoy cars in general, actually check out new models, and are not real fanboys as you would typically see elsewhere, etc, etc.

 

No one argued ALL, but great analogy to apple, also don't own an apple device myself, not a bad product by any stretch but not as great as most would have you believe or on as many levels anyway relative to the competition but marketing, branding and general popularity and pricing, etc, all have their places and so it seems you do get it after all. Lots of comparable and compatible products, what makes something better or the best or preferred is a lot of the times a matter of subjectivity and that can be influenced in many ways and on many levels.

You may like BMW and what they offer genuinely and that's great, lots to like, just because I have not pulled a trigger on one doesn't mean I wouldn't, just can't see myself buying the knock off versions for the sake of the brand or the badge as so many do, rather get one truly worthy of the brand IMO if and when the time comes and opportunity presents itself and feel it's worth doing so, I probably would, goes for other brands as well.

As far as pricing, there is a couple of components to it, there is the if "I" feel it's worth it and then a market assessment that says more or less what it's worth or should be priced at, all somewhat arbitrary I understand, but one is less so (the market assessment) and that does not mean what the MSRP is. With that, attention should be paid to things like margins and costs associated with building and exporting the products, etc, when it applies to see if more costs are getting passed on to the customer or not and if so, attempted to be justified in other ways and so on, someone brought up a good point about German autoworkers for example.

However, I would not knock someone for their decision if they liked it and thought worth it, it's not my money but at the same time that should not be an excuse to avoid a conversation on such matters or detract from the other points being made just because people are sensitive to it.

 

So then, buying the lowest model 5c vs a loaded Galaxy S4 would be "brand snobbery"? The 5c is a knock-off version of the 5S and I can't see myself owning one.

What if apple only sold the 64 gig 5S at $399? Do you think they would loose customers? Selling the lowest model 5c at $99 gives them an opportunity to get the customer into their brand and upsell them in the future.

Seems to be a direct parallel to what car manufacturers attempt to do.

Getting the 16gig 5c makes one no more an apple badge whore than getting the 328 with leatherette (now that Acura has the same strategy it validated BMWs marketing choices) makes one a BMW badge whore.

 

Except the 5C is not selling well. People are buying the 5S. Apple in it's arrogance packaged the 5C on the old iPhone 5 tech and put a plastic body on it. The 5C does not have the 5S tech.

iPhone 5C production cut by 35%, iPhone 5S production boosted 75%

http://venturebeat.com/2013/10/18/ip...on-boosted-75/

At least MB came out with a new body that looks good but alas speaking of old tech -- you still have to use an old fashioned key to start the car -- no push button start offered.

 

Two quick things.

Glashub, No issues at all with your butt kick comment. I am a competitive person & would enjoy a 4G challenge. The famous 4 way test by the mags & the one at the Honda track introducing the 6MT are something a lot of guys hang their hats on here as a touch stone about overall handling capability. Personally in a tight X-cross given a choice I would drive a Miata over a Vette. Different cars do well at different things. What I took away from the low speed tests was all 4 cars were pretty much six of one half a dozen of the other (with two missing) in handling capability.

Winstrolvtec. Someone would have to be brain dead not to understand that tier one cars are status symbols & a good number are bought for the badge. What I am enjoying is the holier than thou attitude of many here about badge buying being the exclusive province of tier one with Acura being immune from such crass decision making.

Finally on Blackular, I expect that you might not remember that after my congrats post & what's the matter with the rest of you the Moderator stepped in to remind the anti upscale herd that this is not how Acuraziners are supposed to act & pretty much be happy for the guy, say congrats or just shut up.

 

Glashub, I agree with almost everything you said and thank you for posting. But surely (don't call me Shirley) you agree that things like Esquire Car of the Year are total BS and not to be taken seriously?
And can we stop talking about freaking cell phones? Again, I realize you are making an analogy, but no one with any sense gives a crap about what cell phone one uses. (?) Let's keep talking about cars and what you think is critical and relevant about the car you choose to buy.

 

Kevin, thanks! You're right about something we don't discuss on this forum -- which is "snob" appeal of the Acura brand -- which to me is this -- I'm smarter than the general public in that I buy the anti-BMW car known for reliability and great tech and it costs less by thousands. I don't follow the herd -- I'm rebellious but practical too -- and I'm an underdog kind of guy who likes the exclusivity of driving a car no one else is buying.

I write the above as a person who has owned 3 Acura's and will probably buy Acura (TLX) again because it is truly one heck of a car and a lot of value -- arguably (maybe?) the best value in the entry luxury level market in terms of a superb balance of attributes at a price point.

Jim, I was wondering as I wrote that post when I was going to get called out on the Esquire Car of the Year b.s. -- it sounds good on dates though.

 

So all of this just for us to finally at least admit to it but what I find curious is that while we agree so called Tier 1 buys are often badge and status based, as are so called Tier 2 brands including Acura, as I might add, I find it enjoyable that you in more ways than not just readily admitted that Tier 1 buys are status and badge bought more than others or at least that it would, at the same time, make sense that Tier 1's would attract more badge and status seekers than 2's, and again, for about the 4th-5th time now, I continue to suggest that Acura is not immune to it.

Will add my opinion again that with exceptions, I think people are kidding themselves and trying to others if they think the majority of the sales (sub and entry, low end mid) in any so called Tier 1 brand are actually Tier 1 products or truly represent what that is supposed to mean, or how it has been interpreted anyway, if those are Tier 1, what do we call the rest or the even higher end products and brands? That's just more branding, marketing and excuses. There is nothing really Tier 1 about a regular CLA relative to or versus a comparable Acura or Infiniti product (or higher line model especially), for example.

The holier than thou assertion goes out the window when there is a valid premise, with factual backing and people agree on it, no matter how much of a hard time one gives another about it or don't want to come to terms with it. Just interesting discussion and decent fun for me, nothing more, nothing less, despite how it might be taken as I'm sure it is for most.

To the last point, it could also be that we are very tolerant to everyone, some who take advantage of that, including those who do not have the same esteem for the Acura brand (this is an fan based site after all, not sure why some expect differently) which is fine but who may also regularly dodge the premise of the discussion or invent straw man arguments, might also readily admit to being a pain in the ass, don't like the discussion but continue to engage as if it changes anything, etc, etc, that something like that Blackacura's thread might be misinterpreted and it might on occasion hit a nerve with some, not that I agree with the response or behavior however. As they say "one hand in the pot can spoil the soup" or something to that effect, but I would keep in mind that this does happen on occasion everywhere, and relative to other sites, it's pretty good here as a whole.

As far as what Glashub was getting at earlier, think it was more to the point that with the TL being "pound for pound" cheaper than most there, also not built for such strict sport aspirations with no RWD or RWD basis, no compact size and packaging which includes less weight, near 50/50 weight distribution, it also being mid sized, heavier than most, one of the two AWD's with whatever advantages and disadvantages it presented there, having a naturally aspirated motor, etc, etc, that it still is/was a compatible handling product despite having these disadvantages and being a bit different in make up and also cheaper. G had a great showing relative to it's price as well.

Could easily make the case that the 3 series and the S4 should or should have brought more to the table for the money. Sure, you could make the same case for the TL relative to something else but to the same dollar extent? Much harder or a smaller gap, but to be fair maybe that is expected the higher you go up in price. Understandably they did play to the strengths of the TL and S4 in this case and I agree, they all finished close enough but so did they also in 1/4 mile acceleration stats and 0-60, by that same token, a few tenths. Naturally, a course that favored the G and 3 would have had different results, but they chose to highlight handling but agree that they all have strong points even if not shown or well represented there.

Regardless of whatever way they decided to go, at the end of the day, arguably the results would have shown no significant differences for daily driving, which I think both the original post to these responses and the publishings alluded to, however the G and TL's comparably equipped price stood out somewhat to that daily driver respect, perhaps the extra size and space of the TL works in that department as well, so does statistical reliability and resale (although probably closer today), etc, but you get the point.

 

Speaking of handling if anyone gets a chance see if you can get some seat time in a Porsche Boxer S+. I got to drive a pair, PDK & 6MT last weekend getting some background info (debate on another site DCT vs. 6MT)


This is the closest I have ever been to a pure track car in a street car package. The salesman took me out driving first to show me how stuff worked, when we hit the first turn I knew it would be a fun morning. Apparently my daughter had told him I was an active sports car racer in the 60’s & 70’s. After 15 minutes on the back roads around Cary NC I had a chance to drive back to the store.

Going from one highway to another on a 180 degree decreasing radius turn the salesman said you want to hit this about 55 mph. Checked the speedo, was in seat of the pants mode, & I asked him if 73 mph was OK or should I slow down, he just laughed & we carried on through the turn slowed down after the merge.

Bottom line is if anyone really is interested in seeing what handling on a street car can be test drive a Boxer with an salesman who is an enthusiast.

 

And that salesman has to be really, really gutsy to trust his life over someone who the salesman has never met before and also has no prior knowledge of the road-tester's level of driving competency.

Many years back when the then-new NSX just came out, a potential buyers took a NSX out for a spin, flipped the car, and the salesman passenger had to spend months inside a hospital as a result of the accident.

 

Some mechanic killed himself in an Atom reciently that he had never driven before, stuff happens & sometimes its bad.

Guess we were even since I trusted my life to him first. Expect if either of us thought the other was getting in over his head we would have spoken up. I think he was comfortable that I felt the car out first & gradually pushed it up the envelope.

There is a cutesy saying among pilots "there are old pilots & bold pilots but no old, bold pilots".

 

The Mercedes brand sold 262K cars ytd. The word often implies more than 50%. So you can say with certainy the real reason Mercedes sold 131k, were not looks, quality, performance; but were "badge buys" by "badge whores"? People whose sole mission it was to only show that with their money, they could buy an expensive item.

Sorry, but I doubt that and no one could possibly know the real underlying factors that tipped the scale for the purchase of on automobile for 131K people, except for themselves. If I had a a spare 90k, I would buy an s class also. Ever been in a new model? They are awesome. Clearly worth over twice the price tag of a tl to those who can afford one, imo.

But there are those who will still think of one as a badge buy. Carry on.

 

Mercedes Gains Ground on BMW as CLA Coupe Propels Sales

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-1...tml?cmpid=yhoo

 

Good for Mercedes. Everybody keeps saying this and i agree: "stiff competition is always good for the consumer".

 

That must have been fun, what did you think of the DCT vs MT? Since you're considering a new weekend car is the boxter now a candidate? I've always thought of the Boxter as one of the best reasonably priced weekend cars.

 

Yes its now on the list. Hate to say it but in the candidates the Stingray is the bang for the buck car, the M4 more of a GT car & the Boxer S a pure sports car. Good news is the wife is good to go with any of them but likes the BMW Z4.

As for the DCT vs. 6MT for the Boxer could not make a decision right now, I was Wowed by both. The car really suits a 6MT small, quick, agile, but one decider might be you need the PDK to get the sport + mode which delivers more power & handling capability than is available with the 6MT & its mistake proof. You can down shift the rev matched PDK from 6th to 2nd quicker than you can get the clutch cycled on the MT.

In line with Edward TLS’s comment about killing ourselves I had no intention of pushing a car I had 30 minutes seat time in very close to its limits so I don’t know if the extra performance of the PDK might offset the fun of a 6MT. In a straight line Porsche lists the spread as 4.2 vs. 4.7 to 60 in favor of the PDK S+.

 

Glashub: High Five.

Winstrol: please look up "run-on sentence" !

Thanks for posting.

 

Why the constant misrepresentation or over-arguing of what I have stated? Do you honestly think that I or anyone else for that matter truly believes MB sold all of their cars on the basis of the badge and nothing else? Do I or anyone actually state that?

Did I not select a more specific group and market with more specific cars and trims and equipment levels in which the badge alone is likely one of key motivating factors? Have you never experienced a real world example of where people automatically associated "better" with a badge, label or brand, nevermind how the product actually fared against a spectrum of other products and never gave it much else thought or reason besides badge or brand?

My focus is what truly drives people to spend comparable and at times more money on a product that is below line, only low to moderately equipped, that gives up features, gives up added performance and/or a bigger more powerful engine, for what does not often add up to much mpg savings or the opposite (see C300 vs C350 example), give up size and space (when one could actually use it), give up statistical reliability, sometimes resale, etc, etc, when other completely compatible and arguably better products do exist just maybe of a different brand or don't have the or the same luxury association but can easily be considered just as "nice". But if you are asserting that 50% of MB sales are based on the word alone, then that's exactly what I'm getting at, not the rest. The % may be in debate but that's the "concept" I'm speaking of.

The S class is an amazing vehicle, one that makes a MB, a MB, however they are few and far in between of the cars that make up the roots of the discussion and points that I and others express. You are not really getting a comparable or compatible product for much less, so I agree it's probably worth it but a car like this is besides my point. Know that MB and others (BMW, Lexus) sell a large majority of what they do or almost all of that much more than others, specifically because of cars and situations that I just described right above, and no it is not all of the sales and notice I did not bring up anything about the car or brand I might own, its irrelevant to the concept.

I don't know why this is so hard to grasp, maybe I can relate it in personal terms, you have a G37 yet you are a strong advocate of BMW and 3 series, why did you not get a compatible 3 series for what it cost you for the G?

 

The c300 is an entry level mercedes that we know. People buy it for their reasons, you are stuck on what it is missing. There could be hundreds of reasons, other then the so-called "badge buy" that a consumer would pick the c300. These reasons may not jive with your criteria and that's okay.

While i like my g, it lacks the smoothness and finesse of the 335. This go around I traded amenities for performance. Next time around I may trade performance for amenities. Or I may move up to a 5 series or get a q hybrid or a TLX. We'll see; I got options.

I think the reason I can't understand your thinking, is I can't understand what's not to like in the c300, which you cited as an example. I can't understand whats not to like about the 328. Ditto for the ILX,which is a badge buy, if I ever saw one.

 

A lot is your view of the car world when you are buying. If its mentioned once its mentioned 1000 times the TL is bigger than the 3 series. It’s a big selling point in the TL world. People coming at it from what BMW offers in a car are not happy with the growth of the car over the past two generation & think the E4X series was the ideal size for them. I am with them.

I can see big size being important to a family with just one car but after that not so much. Chevy, Ford, Buick & Hyundai/Kia make some nice bigger cars at very attractive price points but they would get beat up here as somehow being lesser cars. In this case size & price does not seem to matter

 

That's exactly the thing, for the price of a C300/C250, CLA, etc, there is so much available in not only luxury makes but also top of the line mainstream brands such as those named and they are all relatively comparable products in a slightly broader sense. There are lots of reasons to like and buy any car, people always have their reasons to like anything and why they have decided on it, but is it what they like and then therefore the car that brought them to the brand or the brand that brought them to like the car?

Branding doesn't really make one say, I like it because of the badge, typically it brings them there and then obviously there are always things to like anyway but for me, it's a matter of liking over others, not really liking in general. Hard to put a finger on it either way but how many of those folks do you think would be truly open to owning a comparable Camry or Accord, Ford, Hyundai, Kia, equivalent?

In my findings, there are not that many but understandably, it is anecdotal but let's also be real for a moment. At the same time, there is not a whole lot there to say that they would. Lots of these same folks think it's inferior to own a comparable luxury product from a so called Tier 2 like Acura or infiniti, etc, nevermind a mainstream, while we know there is nothing really wrong with them or the comparisons as a whole. They are different as are most cars even in the same brand. That in large is why some people like myself hold these views.

I would choose a high line mainstream product all day over most of these cars in discussion, a few others chimed in earlier that they would as well, interested to see a few more input on this but it begs the question of, what is it, of real deal breaker significance, that these products are missing in relation to others like the CLA, C250, etc, other than a badge? We know they are targeting many of those buyers with these cars, so is it they are content or depend on making people believe something that they themselves know is false or far from the truth?

That is after all why I poise the discussion and the questions because I would like to know what "it" is. Not really about my criteria or the choice ultimately, it is the reasoning behind it. Not a very easy question to answer but it would have to be pretty common response and somewhat unanimous. We hear why people buy TL's and also why they decided against most of the competition, even over an Accord (whether justified or not). Non Acura and non TL owners can even identify with why that is, but I don't hear anything really consistent or congruent with those cars from those buyers.

As far as the G buy vs 335, it's understood where they are different but I don't fully understand the response. You chose performance over amenities but is the 335 lacking for similar performance? Or did you mean that a comparable 335 would not have had the same amenities at the price and a comparable 328 also at the price would not have had the same performance?

Maybe not with that example specifically but with all that type of sacrificing and compromising going on and for the amount of money involved still, can you see why I think a top of the line mainstream product for under $40k or less seems like an appropriate alternative to some of those choices at times and maybe others should as well?

 

I totally get what you are saying, but then it is lucky for Mercedes and BMW you are not in charge of the world; Mercedes then would only sell the S class.

My friend drives a C280 and I spent the day in the car with him, he totally loved the vehicle and I liked it as well. He was looking to get another Merc; maybe a C300. He liked the car; let me repeat. He liked the car. Mercedes made a product he liked. Do you consider him a "badge snob"?

Peter Drucker, 101. We can hypothecate about the draw of the star(or alternatively the big stylized "A") until the sun swallows the earth. Brand loyalty exists. But it seems when it exists for the Mercedes line of products it's due to "badge snobbery". When it exists with Acura it's good common sense. Seems like a double standard to me. At least here.

 

Happy all these products exist, really, just wish more folks would be a bit more real about what they are and how they relate and compare to others. However, somehow we see people associate their C class as if they own an S class simply because both are a MB and a higher line Accord or Camry, etc, is not a relative product in their mind, when it just might be because MB will secretly tell it is and they want some of those sales.

C has good qualities, didn't say there was nothing to like but it would be interesting to see why he decided on it as opposed to others and what exactly those others were, and his general perception of those to it, and how all that applies to today and cars now in his new search, that's what would differentiate a badge snob or not.

Not sure where the good sense for Acura and not for others comes from. It's not about loyalty but what brings you there first. The same logic would apply to Acura, MB, whatever. Acura (among others) may vary only slightly though in the sense that they have the upper end of the Honda line, and also with the close association of the two brands, I don't think as many Acura folks are as pretentious when it comes to what they drive and what it means. They are a bit humbler in their car approach, especially on ones in the ranges we are speaking of IMO.

 

Friend who owns the C280 is as humble as the day is long. My former friend, however, cited in another thread, who owned the RL was the most pretentious SOB I've ever met in my life. S owner is also humble...a person who happen to make it in life from meager beginnings.

It really is not all that fruitful to talk about the owners or purchasers. Much better to stick to the cars themselves.

 

 

Give me a break!! You can say that with a straight face? Re-read some I just traded my TL for a Hyundai threads, or the rush to compare the TL body size to a 5 series & never to an Impala or Accord? Its always an upward reach for all those humble guys who post.

TL's never get the recognition they deserve is kicked around a lot even though its generally accepted as a good value for the money across the board. What is the other recognition that members are searching for when its already getting exactly the one it deserves?

I can tell you exactly why I bought what I bought from pickup trucks to Jaguars'. If a car visually & tactilely appeals to me, is something I would like to have, is something I can afford, it I buy it. No big mystery or agonizing over it.

 

Agree.