PsychDoc

Oh wait, I know....because of the price.

Well yeah, but in terms of what the cars actually are, there's no question that the TL should be positioned against the 5/A6/E-class.

Here are my initial impressions of the 4GTL (FWD). The car is simply gorgeous inside. Everything fits together like a Rolex. Everything works exactly as it should and it's pretty darn clear that an enormous amount of thought has gone into the interior design. And it's ROOMY. The steering is a bit twitchy and it's true that it requires 100% of your attention 100% of the time as it's not the type of steering that allows the car to just keep tracking straight ahead without driver input. But it's amazingly precise. The ride is taut. Not as unforgiving as the SH-AWD to be sure (that's way too jarring for my tastes) but a whole different kind of ride from the Lexus ES350 I'm coming from. The audio system is superb, easily bettering the Levinson system in my ES350 (I had the UL version which had the Levinson sound system). It's incredibly flexible and it seems there's nothing it can't do to keep you happily entertained on a long or short trip. Hell, I'm a Howard Stern fan and I'm running a little Sony Walkman cassette player thru the Aux input. Works perfectly too!!! The exterior styling is bold and daring and is definitely an attention getter. Whether you like it or not is, of course, purely subjective.

But what I really don't get is why this car isn't compared more often to it's natural rivals, the 5/A6/E-class. It's every bit as good a car in most respects and in some very important areas, it clearly trumps it's far more expensive competition.

Tigmd99

Don't forget the Caddy CTS.

And yes, the TL ELS system is truely superb at any price range. The ONLY system that i found to be better is the Mark Levinson Reference system in the LS460. The other sound system that i am dying to hear is the Hyundai Genesis Lexicon 17-speaker system, which i read as being top-notch.

KeithL

I have heard the Lexicon a few times now and would say it is in the same league as the ELS. I never heard them directly back to back, becasue I was riding in my 3G when I was car shopping and the 3G ELS was not close to either the 505 watt Lexicon or the 4G ELS. The Lexicon is very very clean, and even their XM tuner is very clean. I would have had no problem living with the Lexicon. Now the base Lexicon in the lower package on the Genesis is crap, the 3G ELS was better than the low end Lexicon. One thing I noticed on the Genesis on the Tech package, all that power in the sub can ratlle the rear window shade on occasion, but seeing as the TL does not have a shade and rattle on occasion it is a fair trade off.

evocative

I can agree to this. Lexicon is equal or better than 4G ELS.

cp3117

There are also many other types of cars and suv's out their that many people may think could compete against higher classes of vehicles.

While the 4G is a very nice car and may meet its higher class competitors in a few certain areas so do many other cars but this doesnt mean it automatically becomes its natural rival. If anything those few certain features become very good selling points against its true class category.

When you look at the automotive industry in general its quite clear that the 4G is not the natural rival to the 5/A6/E-Class and i believe even Acura itself markets the 4G against its true competitors such as the 3/A4/C-Class.

winstrolvtec

Besides price, it's only becuase of the positioning of other Acura vehicles and somewhat because there is no v8 option. They can put the car where they want, but by size, displacement, and features and amenities, I think it's obvious where it belongs. With the v6 tsx and likely a v8 RL coming, that should help clear things up. If they really want to get recognized in that segment, they have to offer a v8 type s, and there will be no more question as to where it competes. By putting price at the top, they make it harder to indentify the value in it. If it was in the "higher" category, with most major vehicle factors equal, you could easily see a more attractive price tag at the bottom. It's marketing by both Acura and the industry because otherwise where would they put the current RL? It holds back the TL and TSX, but helps the RL for now.

hypno999

Don't want to turn this topic into love/hate, blah, blah, blah, but my wife's last 3rd car besides X5 and FX35 was A6. Believe me, constant problems, sensor this, sensor that, leaking roof... list goes on... I'll always place Acura Tl above Audi! (when I was a kid my father had Audi 80, that was a great car but more technology they stick in that car the worse it gets). My last car was Acura TL 3G and I had zero problems wit the car... how about that. On the positive note Infiniti FX35 was perfect, not sure why my wife wanted to switch to X5

Audioholics

wow guys I wonder how many of you have heard a really good home audio system. I personally think most OEM car systems including the Acura ELS and Levinsons sound passable for daily driving, but by no means high fidelity. The big problem of course is lowering the noise floor of the car but most manufacturers are still making a very classic mistake by placing the midrange on the floor and the tweet all the way up, simply ridiculous that this is still being done. I can hear the poor integration between the mids and tweets and it drives me nuts. Also the ELS system simply doesn't have enough low end extension and output. The center channel sucks and in the 4G is poorly placed to the back of the dash behind the big Nav overhang.

LessisBestmakingendsmeet

New purchase justification? Has any review included any TL with the next higher class you are suggesting? No. Lets not forget the 2001 or so TL was longer than the last model, it wasn't 5 series competition.

The TL continues to be Accord based whereas the competition you are suggesting has their own platforms and they have everything from RWD, Diesels (E-class, 5), Hybrids (Lexus) multiple V-8s and everything from CVT to 7, 8 speed transmissions. Some have special models like E63, M5, etc.

You are trying to convince US that the TL is somehow on par with those cars? I'm sorry but that is very delusional.

If the new TL truly was in the league you were suggesting, the media and people would easily recognize it as so. The Nissan GT-R comes to mind as a car that is shattering conceptions of what a sports car is and should be priced.

Sadly the only thing the new TL is shattering is mirrors.

Please just be happy with your purchase.

Tigmd99

My home system includes Martin Logan speakers (Vantages, Stage, Depth i). So, i kinda know what good sound sounds like.

The ELS is a very good system, like i said above. Speaker placement could be better, but the sound is pretty damn good for my ears, easily bettering other systems. The only exception being the Mark Levinson Reference system found on the Lexus LS460 and the LX570. Lexicon in Hyundai are pretty good from what i read.

As for proper speaker placement, please note that in the ML Reference system (and also in the Lexicon), the midrange and tweeter are grouped together! In the ML system, the midrange and tweeter combo are spread across the upper dash (3 sets of such). The front doors contained 6x9 woofers in the lower portion to create midbass. This creates a true 3-way system for the front. The rear doors have another set of 3-way system (midbass, midrange and tweeter). The rear deck has a set of midrange and tweeter flanking a subwoofer. Therefore, the ML Reference system is a 7.1 surround. (see: http://marklevinsonlexus.com/overview.asp?model=ls)

Here is how the speakers are laid out in the LS460:


Here is a review of the Mark Levinson Reference system in the LS: http://www.caraudiomag.com/features/...ife/index.html

I believe the Lexicon system is also similarly setup as the ML Reference system: http://hyundai.lexicon.com/system.aspx

Here is a review of the top Lexicon system by a home theater magazine: http://www.hemagazine.com/Lexicon_Hy...s_Audio_System

So, i think that auto manufacturers do know how to get good sounds in a car. Budget constraints probably limit a lot of the audio stuff in a car. It is obvious that the Mark Levinson Reference system (and the Hyundai Lexicon to some extent) is the hallmark of proper car audio sound. And when i did listen to the Lexus LS system, it was amazing...near flawless IMHO.

Back on topic, i think that the 2009 TL ELS system is near the top too. The subwoofer sounded good when i was parking the car, but sounded a bit weak on the road. So, the tuning of the subwoofer could be improved upon. The center channel is weak, but i did not noticed it much. For me, i don't particularly like the Dolby surround matrix for regular CDs...i usually turn if OFF in most systems. (Note, i did NOT try any DVD-Audio.) I did set all the settings to FLAT (zero) when testing the systems.

graphicguy

I concur....size, performance, etc, the TL lines up (many times exceed) the likes of A4, C Series, etc. As you move up that ladder, it's about the same size and performance of the A6, E series, etc.

But, similarly optioned (especially at the current street prices), it undercuts any of those cars.

You start looking at the reliability rankings of manufacturer's like Mercedes (pretty dismal) and Audi (based on VW mechanicals with less than stellar reliability), it becomes an even better value proposition.

Not a 4G owner....yet (former 3G owner). But, having driven the similarly priced C series, BMW 3 series, A4 even the Genesis (which is very impressive), the 4G TL is leading the pack for me.

Plus, none of the other competition can touch the operational solidity of Acura's tech goodies (Genesis is closest).

Audioholics

That's because ELS screwed up the implementation of DPLII. They used Cinema mode instead of Music mode most likely which is why it sounds awful for music. I actually spoke to Elliot Schiner about his ELS system and he wasn't very happy with the wimpy center channel used but said they were limited in dash space to do better.

The sub in the ELS system is too underpowered and small to give any real thump when driving. Personally I wish car companies would give the option of no system and let us put in our own but the integration of an OEM system with the steering wheel and the aesthetics of not standing out is excellent.

Don't get caught up too much with names, Levinson is not the same company it was 20 years ago. In fact most high end companies from that era arent.

That being said, I've heard virtually all major OEM systems on the market and never walked away overly impressed but then again, I am an Audioholic

Tigmd99

Audioholic? Is there a qualification to be that? Doctor of Audioholic (AD)??

I have done and tried aftermarket stuff...ain't the same, and you would be spending tons more $$$$$ to beat a quality OEM system.

I doubt that DPLII cinema was used for the Acura...you make it sound like you're the only expert here...and you make it sound like you know a lot more than ELS engineers!

BTW, Mark Levinson system may not be the same as it was 20 years ago, but then again, ML did not make car audio at that time, did it?? Mark Levinson designed the first ML system in the Lexus LS430 (supposedly), but i believe the company was already sold at that time. So, it is a moot point what ML is today. The bottom line is that the ML Reference system in the LS460 is at the top of the car audio systems from factory. As noted above from the expert reviews, these systems are pretty good for aftermarket standards as well...and is a downright bargain compared to aftermarket stuff! (B&O in Audi is a rip off...that i will admit.)

KeithL

The sub in the 4G ELS is better than the 3G. The 3G ELS was really setup for best performance on DVD-A. And the lack of bottom end in the 3G usually had you wanting more bottom end and it woudl flatten out by mid volume. The 4G ELS is far better, the low end extension is far better than the 3G and while it still tends to flatten out by about 2/3 up the volume range it is better. Also the 4G ELS seems to have decent performance on all sources now, the XM tuner seems much cleaner than the 3G, the 3G XM always sounded muted and muddy. I think the Lexicon in the Genesis does a better job with XM. I too turn off the psuedo surround Dolby in the ELS I find it seems to flatten the sound more than it helps.

Audioholics

yea I kinda know what I am talking about since I own and run the internets Largest A/V review publication (audioholics.com) with over 1 million monthly readers. Not to mention I am a degreed Electrical Engineer that designed this stuff before actually starting my publication. I speak to engineers in the field on a daily basis and met Elliot face to face at a trade show where I discussed his system as implemented in the TL.

Something isn't correct with ELS PLII implementation. I suspect its PLII Cinema Mode but it just doesn't sound right.

Audioholics

Good points. I can't stomach the compression in XM regardless of how its implemented. I wish cars came with Rhapsody or Pandora!

Bearcat94

I totally agree. The OE System I had in the loaner FWD/Tech was WAY, WAY better than the 3G TL-S.

Not only more speakers and/or power, but better bass and better "placement". Personally, I like the center channel location (at least compared to the 3G), it seemed much more relevant but not dominant. Maybe thats part of the surround logic.

Regardless, MP3, Commercial DVD-A and Homemade (adobinized) DVD-A were all MUCH, MUCH better in the 4G.

It might not be as good as you can do, but for a factory system, I thought it was stellar.

tm86it

The DVD-Audio in the $G ELS is phenomenal... even the demo disk sounds fab.

I'm not as qualified as Mr. Audioholics.com, but I've been a major audiophile for 35+ years, and I've got a good ear (or 2!) and have sampled most of the TL's competition over many months, always bringing 1-2 CDs I know well.

I can safely say that overall, the 4G ELS is THE best stock system I've heard, BAR NONE. It simply ROCKS on DVD-A as well. The only 1 I didn't hear was the ML Ref system in the high-end Lexus, so I'm sure that's great too.

I've heard marginally better custom systems in cars as well, but the added cost and lack of full integration with the rest of the electronics & nav is not worth the marginal sound improvement for everyday driving, IMHO, nor is it worth the added cost and lack of full warranty.

Sorry we audio guys took over this thread!!! On that note, it's only logical to compare cars on price actually, since that's how most folks shop! Cheers...

Hugh9269

The CTS Premium Bose 5.1 with DVD-A is not even close to thr 3G ELS system.

I bucked up for it on my CTS. The 4G sounded great for the 20 min test drive last year. The Lexicon is the next level in my book. I have not listened to the ML in the Lexus line yet, but I assume it has great sound.

I use a Arcam/Pioneer Elite/B&W 701 system at home.

I would love to have my 3G system back. Love the car, but lacking in audio!