6SpdTerror

I would if they came out with a Type-s or even a Type-r that could trounce the M3 with the Acura amenities and reliability and keep the shawd. I dont need RWD living in NY where u only get 3-4 months of good weather. Twin turbo V6 or maybe even a small efficient V8

jjsC5

Your comment about the only 3.7 making more hp is funny. There are quite a few 3.5's that make as much hp as the 3.7 Acura and they typically have better gas mileage. Acura is a about to drop another notch as the 2012 Genesis 3.8 liter V6 is going to have 333 hp and gas mileage appears it will be about the same as the 3.5/280 hp Acura (highway mileage is being estimated at 29, but they have not shown a city mileage yet). The Genesis is going to have DI and an eight speed automatic.

I remember when Honda & Acura were trying to break into the U.S. market and they were ahead of the curve. Honda/Acura have become too complacent. That's what got GM in trouble when Toyota and Honda came to the U.S. in a big way. Now Hyundai is acting like Honda did back then.

saturno_v

I'm aware of only one naturally aspirated 3.5 liter engine on a sport sedan producing out more than 300 HP....the Lexus unit (303 on the GS and 306 on the IS)....so "quite a few" is not correct.

All the German 3-3.5 liter 6 cylinder naturally aspirated engines are significantly sub-300

As far as fuel consumption...I posted some links with EPA and observed numbers for some of the best competitors....very comparable to the TL figures.

The Hyundai unit I'm sure it is a fantastic engine but, technically, is still not available at the dealers.

So the J Engine while is not longer the first in class is comfortably more than middle of the pack.

I'm pretty sure Acura keep the 3.5 liter of the base TL at a conservative 280 HP figure because of torque steering issues with the FWD only layout....the 3.5 liter on the first generation SH-AWD RL in 2004 was already cranking out 300 HP.

And yes, Honda should definitely move ahead with DI...

TechnoCat

I think where the comparison fails is the >3.2L 6-cylinder displacement. That's about where the limbo to V-8 is, at least for performance cars. For example, the SH-AWD V-6 is 3.5L, while the Jaguar (Ford) AJD-V8 is 3.6L. In earlier engines, the Alfa Montreal engine was a 2.6L V8, and in 1975 Ferrari put a 2L V8 into the 208 GT4.

Honda doesn't really do V-8 or forced-induction engines in their cars (at least I can't think of any mass-production examples.) They may need to change that.

saturno_v

The switch from V6 to V8 on current production cars lies at about 4 liter displacement....I think the current 3.7 liter size of the Mazda 6, Acura Tl and Infiniti and the 3.8 liter Hyundai is the end of the line for a V6 engine.
Ford Australia on the Falcon sedan I believe did push it up to 3.9 liter for their Duratec V6 and currently they did bring back the Barra engine 6 cylinder inline 4.0 liter.

Currently the Acura RDX has a turbocharged engine (2.3 liter VTEC 4 cylinder 240 HP)

saturno_v

....and in Europe Honda sells cars with turbodiesel engines (Civic, Accord, CR-V)

jasonwdp10

The RDX engine is not an efficient engine.

You have a car that is as heavy as the SHAWD TL, but it's slower, less efficient, and less refined. What would be the point of keeping such an engine?

saturno_v

I have not researched the RDX as I'm not interested in SUV anyway.
I just answered to Technocat about Honda using turbocharged engines.

Edward'TLS

Let me help getting the numbers correct.

Other sport sedans > 300hp :
306hp, 3.5L-V6, 2007 G35 sedan, this was more hp than Acura's latest 3.7L.
306hp, 3.5L-V6, 2009 M35 sedan.

German 3-3.5 liter 6 cylinder (naturally aspirated) :
333hp, 3.2L-I6, 2001 M3, this was achieved 10 years ago.

1G RL (1996-2004) (FWD only) :
225hp, 3.5L-V6

2G RL (2005-now) (SH-AWD only) :
290hp, 3.5L-V6, 2005-2008
300hp, 3.7L-V6, 2009-now

Up to today, Acura has NO naturally-aspirated (NA) 3.5L-V6 capable of 300hp. The only NA Acura engine >300hp is the 3.7L-V6.

In conclusion, Acura's V6 engine technology has been, for years, falling way behind the competitors in terms of output horsepower. Honda has given up tuning the aging 3.5L J-series engine for more hp, and has instead resorted to the primitive way of increase engine displacement for more hp.

A couple years back, Lexus and Infiniti had already managed to crank out more hp from their 3.5L engines than today Acura's latest 3.7L unit. Today's Infiniti 3.7L-V6 can crank out from 330hp to 348hp, compared to today Acura's 3.7L unit at merely 305hp.

Acura vehicles are almost perfect, except in the horsepower department.

Just wish that Acura can release it's new generation of V6 engines soon, in order to be able to compete with or at least at the same level as the other top auto makers in terms of output hp.

TL Tech 18

No ....... Price is perfect where it is. Leave the TL alone.

Glashub

I think the most important thing to the Honda brass is the company's reputation for reliability. As a result of that they are slow to bring new technology and features to market because those new features and technologies may lead to multiple visits to the dealer under warranty (someone is eating that cost), recalls, and lost brand equity. They are to me a lot like Apple. There are phones and laptops that are ahead of Apple in terms of hardware and features but today Apple is one of the most valuable companies in the world built on a reputation for simplicity, reliability and quality.

I also think that the Toyota fiasco and the money it has cost Toyota in a number of ways has caught Hondas attention. I think, based on my experience working with internet companies that have calculated how much it costs them to have a person on their site who doesn't buy anything, that when pricing a car manufacturers know to the penny how much warranty visits, recall, and lost brand value costs them per car.

All of the above, imo, is why Acura is what it is and why it's a great value.

Pseudomaniac

iTrader: (1)

Until Honda sales take a substantial beating, they aren't going to but dollars into direct injection tech, or shake down the J motor tree. Back in 06/07ish when BMW, Merc, and even Hyundai were going the DI route, that they were focused on the hybrid tech, which is why the CRX/S2000 replacement is an anemically underpowered shoe looking thing that doesn't get as good of gas mileage as a 20 year old base model civic did.

Honda's 4 CAM N/A 3.2L V6 was putting out 290 back in 05, with forged internals and an 8k redline, on a 15 year old design....

They've got the tech to build a 330hp + 4 cam V6 just by upping the displacement, they just haven't the need to deploy it.

saturno_v

Mixing apples with oranges here...

The Lexus 3.5 liter has more HP...I did already aknowledge that...same for the Nissan VQ


Leave the M3 aside....that is a specialized racing engine....I can bring to comparison the 240 HP naturally aspirated 2 liter Honda engine of the S2000...10 years ago also...so what is your point??

At its debut, at the end of 2004, the 3.5 RL had 300 horses...not 290....they revised down to 290 couple of years later.

I already told you that I'm pretty sure they keep the 3.5 of the FWD TL to 280 HP for torque steering issues.

While the latest iteration of the VQ (in its 3.7 liter form) can crank out a lot of horsepower it is definitely thrashy at high rev and with a less fat torque curve...I drove quite few of them...
My previus car, a Maxima SE was not so rough ad high rev...

I never drove a recent 6 cylinder Lexus....however in the FWD ES, Lexus kept the output to 268 HP instead of the 303-306 for the IS and GS....again, I suspect torque steering issues here as well...


So I do not think it is, frankly, a matter of cranking few more HP at that level...it is how you want to tune your engine...the unit on my TL is glass smooth compared to a G37..I think you can squeeze out more HP out of a J engine...probably at a price...

An engine is not only peak horsepower...

I already mentioned that Honda is behind with the lack of Direct Injection....I just do not think that the J series is that much behind as many believe it is....

Finally a SOHC engine is not necessarily technolgically behind a DOHC....and if you know a bit about engine technology you would know why....the J Series was born in 1996 when DOHC was already common...it was a specific technical choice...

A SOHC setup leaves you the same amount of freedom as a DOHC in the design of the combustion chamber, intake and exhaust ports...it introduces a bit of play with the rockers and levers but it reduces the rotating mass....you need to weight the advantages and disadvantages which I think Honda did.

JM2010 SH-AWD

Honda is the only motorcycle manufacturer among the Japanese makers to use a SOHC configuration for its motocross racing bikes. Why? Lighter, less complicated, and allows for more optimal combustion chamber configuration. So while there are certainly some advantages to DOHC, the advent of variable valve timing on intake and exhaust (e.g., 3.7 TL motor) moots some of them. It's not a matter of "cheaping out" or being behind the times. Honda (Acura) made a deliberate engineering decision to use SOHC on the 3.5/3.7 motors.

Edward'TLS

My point on the M3's 333hp 3.2L-I6 is to remind you that 10 years ago the German make BMW had already crank out >300hp from a 3.2L, when you said "all the German 3-3.5 liter 6 cylinder naturally aspirated engines are significantly sub-300". In contrast, the special purpose-built Acura DOHC 3.2L-V6 used for the NSX was still at 290hp in it's final form.

I have no problem with the 3.5L-V6 for the FWD TL being detuned to 280 HP for torque steering issues. But how about the SH-AWD TL/RL ? I want to see a 306hp 3.5L or a 330hp 3.7L SH-AWD TL/RL, just to match those hp outputs from Lexus and Infiniti.

As for FWD sport sedans, the current technology limit has been pushed to ~290hp. That's why there isn't any good handling FWD sport sedan with >290hp. This is the beauty of RWD. It will easily take 300+hp and still handle very well. But Acura is missing out here, with only FWD chassis.

I fully understand that there are many aspect in rating an engine. The Honda J-series V6 is very good in smoothness, in torque delivery, and in fuel economy, but short in output hp, when compared with the industry's best.

When talking about everything else, the J-series V6 is an excellent all-round performer. But when talking about output hp, this is where the J-series V6 stands, which is falling behind the competitors' best V6 in terms of hp.

(naturally aspirated = NA)

Competitors' BEST 3.5L/3.7L NA V6 :

2005, 3.5L-V6, IS350, 306hp
2005, 3.5L-V6, G35, 298hp
2008, 3.7L-V6, G37C, 330hp
2009, 3.7L-V6, G37 sedan, 328hp <-----
2010, 3.7L-V6, IPL-G37C, 348hp

Acura's BEST 3.5L/3.7L NA V6:

2007, 3.5L-V6, TL, 286hp
2007, 3.7L-V6, MDX, 300hp
2009, 3.7L-V6, RL, 300hp
2009, 3.7L-V6, TL, 305hp <-----
2010, 3.7L-V6, MMC TL, 305hp


However, even though the Honda J-series NA V6 is behind the industry's best V6 in terms of output hp. The Honda NA 4-cylinder (I-4) engines are still class-leading in output hp, and has been so for the past few decades.

1998, 1.8L, 195hp, Integra Type-R
2005, 2.0L, 210hp, RSX Type-R
(2011, 2.0L, 197hp, Civic SI)
2009, 2.4L, 201hp, TSX (just beat the Hyundai 2.4L GDI by 1hp)

The catch is that all these notorious Honda NA I-4 are DOHC, whereas the J-series V6 series are SOHC. In practice, DOHC is a lot more tunable for output power than the SOHC counterpart. So no matter how technological advance the Honda SOHC J-series V6 is, not even Honda can squeeze more output power out of it, as easy as the other competitors with their DOHC NA V6's.

As for a DOHC J-series V6, it is not as simple as just adding one more cam inside the cylinder head. It takes a new V6 generation to do the task. That's why a lot of us are waiting and waiting for Honda to release the next generation V6 (highly likely DOHC) in order to regain the lead in output hp for it's V6 family, in the same way as always with it's I-4 family.

My guess for the new gen V6 would be :

290-310hp 3L-V6,
320-340hp 3.2L-V6,
350-370hp 3.5L-V6,
No need for a 3.7L-V6.

saturno_v

I meant to say "Germans in the sport sedan arena (naturally aspirated)" not overall

If we talk for marketing purposes, yes, a few more HP would help...but, as yourself admitted, there is more than top rev horsepower on an engine...I would rather keep the 3.7 output at what it is and with the fatter torque curve than have the top end "thrashyness" of the Nissan VQ in its current form...even the 348 HP G37 Coupe (lighter than the TL) cannot match the acceleration numbers (both 0-60 and 1/4 mile) of the manual TL SH-AWD...that tells you something about torque delivery...so it is ok for bragging rights "hey the G37 has 20 more hp than the TL" (or 40 in the case of the IPL) but there is more to the story.

That is a different issue...Acura mainly uses Honda platforms.....and still capable of delivering very good premium content...even Audi doesn't have RWD cars and offers its "front track" entry level trims for the A4 and the A6......I do think Acura should offer SH-AWD on the TSX, I do not understand the reason why it doesn't...

Again, I never did drive a Lexus with their V6....but I can tell you, once again, that I'm happy to take the 5% less top output of the J series than the roughness and more anemic torque curve of the Nissan VQ anytime.


The SOHC design has more limitation at very high rev because of the play introduced by the rockers and levers.....but, again and again, the only naturally aspirated V6 engine on a sport sedan today capable of appreciable more HP is the Nissan VQ.....and it has its faults...

It is as simple as redesigning the cylinder head....even the Honda C Series has SOHC and DOHC versions...the same happened with units from other manufacturers.

jjsC5

Some good responses here, and I don't have time to do a thorough reply. I admit I was counting some engines that are not 3.5 liters. The Cadillac/Camaro 3.6 is over 300.

As to your point about limiting power because of a car being front drive. This is certainly a good observation. But it brings home the problem of trying to build a $40,000 plus sport sedan car around a front drive platform. Another strike against Acura's technology. They are countering it with AWD which adds several hundred pounds.

BTW, I stand by my statement that Acura is lagging. Still a great car in many ways - I'm picking up a 2012 SH-AWD Advance for my wife tomorrow.

jasonwdp10

The TL has ecu modifications to reduce torque in the first and second gears. The detuning (only 10hp/2tq) probably has more to do with NVH than torque steer.

Also, if the J35 was so great, why would they bother with a J37? O WAIT they probably hit its limit at 290hp in the RL. The J37 may only be about 5% stronger on paper, but it's a much sportier sounding engine than the quiet J35, especially now that they further reduced NVH for 2012+

winstrolvtec

I don't get why they are not at least at the same level or compete in terms of hp output. 305 hp is more than a lot of the others 300 hp and they do so without DI or DOHC which is both a good and bad thing. Good because it's easily one of (if not) the smoothest, lightest, most reliable, and quietest large displacement NA V6 motors and bad because it could be better in nearly every aspect with those additions.

I also wouldn't get too hung up over the output alone if actual performance and acceleration is a priority. As an example, the G37 is impressive with it's hp "stats" but still falls behind the S4 and is no better than a 335. If you wanted the faster accelerating car, the 30 extra HP is rather meaningless.

Some engines are simply under or overrated, some cars lose more power in their drivetrain then others. Ratings are not nearly as important as what the bottomline capabilities are and also the vehicle it's attached to, at least to most people. Unless we are talking about marketing or bragging rights then there is no point to having class leading HP if it's not the acceleration leader.

The same thing goes for DI and fuel economy. The TL is not doing any worse in MPG than most comparable mid size sedans of similar size, weight, and output, also with AWD. Probably not the fastest of the bunch in AT but also not the slowest. The FWD is one of (if not) the most fuel effecient and also performance oriented sedans out of the other FWD luxury sedan competitors. It's no wonder why we haven't seen the new J series yet.

From a pure advancement and technological point of view, not having DI and DOHC can be considered as behind and from a pure statistical point of view, 305 hp is less than 330 hp (and the 6AT was pretty late to the game) but if the end result is largely competitive overall and it instead excels in other areas not often talked about, then it really doesn't matter and then how much is it really behind?

For where Acura positions it's vehicles and who it is intended to compete against and the appropriate trims, they are not really lagging behind. Maybe not the leader in torque or hp output and there is nothing flashy going on from a marketing standpoint with leading HP, FI, DI, or DOHC but on average, it still very much the same as what you get from another make.

We can be overly critical and use specific criteria for what is ahead and what is behind and I wouldn't disagree but in that case, there is only one who is ahead and everyone else falls behind. If you really want to know what real lagging is, just look at the V6 offerings from MB and I am not knocking them, it's just for the sake of discussion. Their motors have many good qualities that some others don't as well but everything is behind from ouput, actual performance, and fuel economy and that's despite the use of DOHC and more than 6 gears in the autos.

Most brands have different approaches and uses (and non uses) for their engines. The point is to develop an engine personality or characteristics that they want their motor to have to best appeal to who they think their customer is. These things don't mean anything by themselves, they are just a means to an end. More importantly is the end, or in this case, the end result. So again, unless we are talking about marketing or bragging, it's not about how it gets there.

TechnoCat

I've had four Audi V6 engines, two of them NA, one bi-turbo and one supercharged. All were far smoother than the TL's V6. All also had more low-end torque. What the Honda engine has is more willingness to rev high, which translates to higher peak horsepower relative to peak torque. Horsepower is more fun, while torque is faster. And of course the Honda engine is bullet-proof reliable.

As the old bromide goes, Torque wins races, but HorsePower sells cars.