ellover009

I think the op meant something more along the lines of what Lexus did when they created the lfa. Unfortunately the tl has some things the rl does not have such as push button start and they had a better resolution nav screen, might not be the same awd but u can get it on the tl and the 3.7 v6. The tl is technically 90% of what u need if you are looking at the rl, they are even too similary sized compared to the 1rst gen rl vs comparable tl.

Honestly I don't see that happening anytime soon at least until the rl gets redesigned with a larger than a v6 engine, and that's not happening because the uber nsx with the v8-10 got cancelled and is going to be brought back as a scrapped model. They are going to use the accord platform and use a turbocharged v6.

2010_Type_SH

As much as I agree with what you are saying you can't deny that the the new E Class is pretty sharp.

I do think that Honda/Acura needs to improve on a few things to stay competitive. besides the mechanical aspects such as more gearing or a newer more updated engine, the Acura Nav and interface is now lagging behind with some of the new google earth linked Navs that's being offered.

jspagna1

I wouldn't.

ZCL

Add $10k, active suspension, 375 hp, better seats, stereo, panoramic moonroof, advance package from MDX/ZDX... Yes, I would spend another $10k.

George Knighton

The TL is an ideal sized car for many people, and SH-AWD is still an industry leader because it offers a level of performance in a price range that Audi and Mercedes cannot match. The car is solid...extremely reliable.

So...maybe.

The 2012 model's Advance Package is just a hint at what they can do if they want to do it.

It is entirely possible, it seems to me, that a $50,000 to $55,000 TL SH-AWD with Tech and (Super) Advance Packages might very well continue to be the best buy for many purchasers in that price range.

Maybe the revived Legend or the ZDX is what we ought to be looking at when we get to that range, however.

Glashub

If Hyundai can sell a car in the $43,000 range and another at $65,000 why couldn't Acura make, market, and sell a car in the $50,000 - $55,000 range?

2010_Type_SH

The USDM to JDM equivalents are as follow:

Acura RL - Honda Legend
Acura TL - N/A
Acura TSX - Honda Accord
Honda Accord - Honda Inspire.

If Honda were to go release a $50k+ sedan it would depend on what they want to do with the the RL/Legend. So one of 3 things would happen:

1) The next JDM Honda Legend would become the USDM Acura TL and the current JDM Legend/USDM RL would go away.

2) The USDM TL would stay where it's at price point wise and the JDM Legend/USDM RL would hopefully continue with an overhaul to compete with the Lexus/BMW/MB flagships. This of course would bump the price up considerably.

3) Everything stays the way it is and the TL will continue to cannibalize into the RL sales and the RL will get cut in the states leaving the RL only available in the JDM.

compewterbleu

I think the 4 dr looks stuffy the 2 dr in certain colors looks really sharp, checked it out but I wanted 4 drs this go round.

Yeah, I just feel those should be improvements as the car advances.

compewterbleu

Cool ideas

Ruby

next generation TL will be smaller, lightweight, Direct Injection, 3.5 or 3.7 HYBRID with SH-AWD and maybe a bit more power. Expect it to have that new multidisplay that the new Civic has on the instrument cluster and will be just about the same price maybe a bit more.

TooLaggy

Acura would have to build a V8 rwd with 429hp to at least compete

gibjer

Threads like this are why I love the internet, full of dreamers with almost zero business sense or reality.

The reason Acura succeeds is because of it's price positioning in comparison to BMW/Audi/Merc.

You add another 10k to a TL and instead of being the alternative to the 3/5 series, you are a direct competitor even on price.

Most people who are cross shopping the premium brands with Acura choose so because of the value it represents, and if you ask me the TL is positioned pretty well right now without over-contenting the car with crap that is just fluff to pad the MSRP.

You also have to consider the impending new fuel regs, 350hp just isn't going to happen without a turbo at this point to boost the mpgs. Everyone knows this, which is why even the next M3 is going to be a turbo 6 instead of the V8, just to help out since it's a fleet average. Expect the TL and TSX to go on a weight loss program as well, which while shedding weight might lose some of the solid feeling we love unless more expensive materials are used throughout to reinforce.

My guess is that the next TL will continue with the current 3.7 in the AWD (possibly a smaller displacement turbo 6) models with the FWD will find themselves with a turbo 4, not looking for a parts bin motor on either of these as they will need to trickle down both the Acura and Honda lines.

boe_d

I wouldn't even consider it unless it looked nice like the 3rd generation even the 2012 looks like a hodge podge - no real direction or unifying styling.

That being said I'd consider the 5GL for $50K fully loaded - not a penny more if -

1. Get rid of the tacky styling on the interior it is trying to be sporty (but it isn't). It is just plain tasteless.
2. Increase MPG about 25% without impacting acceleration
3. Significantly upgrade the GPS and other electronics.
4. Don't cheap out on leather or padding or other materials.
5. Improve the sound insulation

TechnoCat

I like the look of the 2012, at least from what I've seen. But I didn't find the 2009-2011 too bad; a bit bloated, and I had my bucktooth painted to match, but I didn't consider it fugly.
Fully agree. But prevailing attitude here over the last year has been that the car is better-than-BMW in these areas, even if you and I don't see it that way.
Do people buying a $50K car really worry that much about the cost of gas? Assume a lease-standard 10,000 miles a year, and MPG moving from 22mpg (about what I got) to 26mpg, at today's cost of $4/gal. That's 70 gallons a year, or $280/year. Not really a cost-factor.

boe_d

It is a valid quetion. I would say many here on this forum don't seem that much into MPG - more about numbers of HP - (I only care about acceleration since once I exceed 80 I end up getting a ticket and I never use my TL to tow a yacht or a house).

I do care a little about the world I leave for my nieces (although I'm not exactly Ed Begley Jr - I haven't changed all of my bulbs yet or put in any solar collectors, yet I may in my next house and I will have a ground heat pump) though and I hate going to the gas station. If I were a betting man, I'd bet within 5 years you'll be paying $6 per gallon. I pay $4.50 a gallon where I live. Not enough to make or break people with $50k cars but every dollar counts for me after all, I'll want to buy another 50K car within another 10 years . I don't like our dependence on foreign oil and I just don't like going to the gas station - takes time out of my day and money out of my wallet. I have to fill my tank about twice a week on busy weeks - all stop and go traffic where I live which would benefit from a hybrid.

compewterbleu

It's not a tread without the lack of business sense, I looked into account inflation, I also took into account the progression of a product over it's life cycle. The 4G is prime example of that...it grew in size and the look wasn't anything anyone truly projected.
Everywhere you look you see the car industry taking gambles and upping the ante on what features are in a vehicle, who saw Hyundai or Kia offering cars with cooled seats, a Ford with air flow dampening? or one that parks itself?

You add $10-12k to a manufactures budget who already has the understanding of designing more bang for the buck and you'd be surprise what can happen. I do work like this on a regular basis and see it done on a regular basis... cost isn't always directly related to materials per say...I understand reality very well, I also understand that some folks over pay for things and companies aren't so eager to reduce the price simply because it's the right thing to do.

Ruby

Do people buying a $50K car really worry that much about the cost of gas? Assume a lease-standard 10,000 miles a year, and MPG moving from 22mpg (about what I got) to 26mpg, at today's cost of $4/gal. That's 70 gallons a year, or $280/year. Not really a cost-factor.[/QUOTE]

That's where you are very wrong. If that was the case why would they make a hybrid S class Mercedes? Or plenty of the other expensive hybrid cars? Hybrids are the future I bet in 10 years more than half of all cars will be hybrid standard.

compewterbleu

I believe it's posted on a that somewhere on AZ that one demographic is the income of $150K for the TL owner. In numerous financial reads I read a car shouldn't exceed more than .25 of your income...that may have changed. But folks buying these cars aren't tree hungers nor to concerned about mpg.

Even the cost of hybrid ownership has been broken down to the cost over the years per a persons driving habits.

And doing a retro to the 3G is a step backwards...I wouldn't buy it and I know a few others here locally who don't care for the 3G styling. That's not saying that the 09 styling or MMC rework is all that and a bag of chips. The idea is to advance the TL line. While some think it slipped other think it didn't and some think the MMC was a cop out on Acura's part.

Acura does need a hybrid model and just yesterday i saw a thing on a financial report about the 1st Japanese luxury brand falling behind yet soon to release a few new products like the return of the RSX. Is this the right move, we'll I don't get paid the big bucks to analze the data for that decision. Will it flop, we'll have to wait and see.

boe_d

I do agree there are definitely those who want a sports car in a semi-luxury sedan. I on the other hand want a sedan with sporty acceleration, lots of bang for the buck and some luxury features. I believe there are definitely more HP enthusiasts on this site than people such as myself however I think HP enthusiasts also tend to be drawn to sites like this so I'm not positive it would be an accurate statistical sampling.

I think there is room for Acura to have a little of both. I think if Acura can get even remotely close to the crazy proposed numbers like the BMW getting 63 MPG, 350HP and 0-60 in a flash, there would be a line of people to get an Acura even if the styling was as unpopular as the 4G TL. Let's say they got 0-60 in about 6 seconds, 32/40 MPG and 300 HP and still managed to keep it down to $50K they wouldn't be able to keep up with demand.

http://www.worldcarfans.com/10909142...ew-event-video

n-spring

Simple ... CAFE

Edward'TLS

Exactly, all these true luxury auto makers create fuel-efficient trims and hybrid trims so as to average out the complete lines of gas-guzzling fleet, in order to satisfy the upcoming ever-stricter fleet-CAFE number.

Unlike the econo brands, they do it NOT to please the fuel-efficient buyers, but only to please the government CAFE requirement.

Buyers worry about fuel economy should never have considered the heavy and hulking S-Class in the first place. It is as hypocrite as GM's claim of going green by putting a 3.6L-V6 in the hulking Hummer, which existence is a complete opposite of being green.

The bulk of these true-luxo fleets is still focused on high hp, and as a result gas-guzzling vehicles.

Power and luxury is what sets apart all these true luxury brands and the econo brands.

Luxury is what Acura has, but power is still what prevents Acura from moving upscale to compete with the true-luxury brands.

cp3117

You hit it dead on...

I posted links before in another thread where Edmunds did some research and found that the majority of Acura consumers are mainstream purchasers with the luxury consumer a secondary market.

When you look at that you can see when people compare sales figures etc its decieving when comapring brands like Buick, Acura etc as their market base is larger than the dedicated luxury brands. This in turn is probably why your seeing more luxury brands introducing small, sub entry level vehicles in order to try and tap into this market as well as trying to lower their overall fleet fuel consumption ratings.

If Acura increased the quality, Luxury and feature content on the TL to actually be comparable to the dedicated luxury brands their sales would drop considerably IMO due to the increase in price and Acura's profit margins would probably follow the same path.

The TL is a great vehicle that provides similar performance numbers comparable to other luxury models but IMO it falls short in the feature's, quality of materials, ride etc, but in turn you are compensated for this by paying less to purchase the vehicle.

I would pay $10k more if the TL had more tech, quality and most importantly a true mid-size vehicle. I tip my hat to Acura and its marketing how they have decieved many people into thinking the TL is now a mid-size competitor to the 5 series etc. The 2G TL introduced in 1999 is a 10th of a cubic foot LARGER in total interior and cargo volume than the 4G TL and both the 2G and 3G TL's where never really considered competitors to the 5 series, A6 etc. The 4G though has the largest exterior dimentions of all the generations and suddenly the vehicle is upmarket and comparable to these midsize luxury sedans...

cp3117

Very true, but also the Hybrid name on your vehicle seems to be a trendy thing to have these days. I know a few people who have purchased luxury hybrids because it was a cool feature.

I asked my good friend that owns a Lexus GX470 and a LS460 what he thought of the fuel prices now......his response was " I couldnt care less, when its empty I fill it "....enough said.

JM2010 SH-AWD

I'm not going to get into the whole features/quality of materials issue - reasonable minds can differ on this and, it's mostly subjective in any event. On the size point, however, EPA classifies the 4G TL AWD as a mid-size car - same as the 535ix, Audi A6 and Lexus GS350 AWD. Three of those cars have the exact same passenger volume - 98 cubic feet. The 535ix is slightly larger at 102 cf. It's not hard to see why a number of people, myself included, look at some of the other offerings in this group and find it very difficult to see why they should pay a 10-20K+ premium for a car that has a lower performance envelope than the 4G (AWD) and (at least) arguably fewer features. And we'll leave reliability out of the equation for the moment too.

In my view, Acura has the car right about in the correct pricing slot. There's not much more to add in terms of meaningful features, and doing so would do nothing more than bloat the price. Certainly, I expect Acura will continue to update electronics, etc., but most people I expect aren't interested in paying a lot more for windshield wipers that automatically turn on or other such gadgetry.

Edward'TLS

This is called brand prestige or brand recognition. Buyers are paying premium just for the brand name, and they are all happy about it.

It's just like a Rolex/Omega watch vs a Seiko watch.

In addition, there is also available the 550i-xdrive and M5, the 4.2L-V8 A6 and S6, and the GS450h/GS460 model trims to build up the model images. It's all about what the car is capable of in it's top-line form.

However, the Acura TL (and even the RL) has no such luck to boost it's model image. There is nothing more to upgrade to; even if some buyers want more power, some want more gadgets, and other wants more luxury.

It will only make potential car buyers feel that the RL/TL falls short at just the entry level of the 5/A6/GS models.

The RL is the real competition candidate to the entry-level 5-series, A6, and Lexus GS.

Using the TL to compare is like using the Hyundai Genesis to compare with the TL; and so likewise the Genesis will enjoy a significant price saving against the TL, in the same way as with the TL against the 5/A6/GS.

jasonwdp10

Exactly!

Yea yea the value proposition is nice. Good for those that shop based only on "bang for your buck", you'll save a lot of $. I also hope you're not buying name brand anything since you're always paying a premium for the name. But guess what? the majority of people still buy and trust the BRAND, not just the value factor. This applies for cars, medicine, clothing, etc.

Brand prestige is HUGE in the luxury car market. That's one of the reasons that the E class and 5 series still easily outsell the TL despite the TL's HUGE price, performance, and reliability advantage.

Acura has never really had any prestige, and still doesn't really have it. You don't gain prestige by being honda+, you do it by either having history to support it, or emphasizing ridiculously unnecessary luxury features (almost all european brands), superior refinement and quietness (lexus) and large engines (all except acura), and attempt to be unattainable (european brands)

Acura also doesn't offer any customization, all cars are sold in packages. Why would people buy a car that forces so many options on them? Most of the other luxury makes have extensive packages and options that can be hand picked by you. Acura does not understand the luxury market yet, in fact the acura brand was created as honda+, to get all the customers that want to move out of economy cars, but don't have enough for luxury cars. When the economy picks up, they'll be left in the dust again.

If the TL bumps its price up too much, it will suffer the same fate that the RL and the lexus GS have suffered.

compewterbleu

Quality? Whoa that's one of the reason folks buy Acura.

compewterbleu

So many true points in here. Folks forget when the gas crisis hit Honda/Acura didn't take a hit retooling plants or shutting them down. V-8's are mainly for the affluent and super consumer(American buyers). Even Acura SUV's were still driven and not dumped like many at the onset of the gas crisis. Truth is Acura is a solid brand, just not flashy and with the years of heritage.

cp3117

This is my point though. Your only looking at the interior volume though and not the EPA total volume (Interior and Cargo volume).


The 12 year old 2G TL introduced back in 1999 had a slightly larger total (EPA) volume over the current 4G TL. Acura tried originally to market the 2G towards models like the 5 Series etc but it wasnt successful and was never considered a competitor to those vehicles. The 4G is then introduced with .1 cubic feet SMALLER (EPA Volume) than the 2G but the exterior is designed much bulkier to give the 4G a bigger look and now suddenly some people are perceived into thinking that its a competitor due to Acura's smart marketing.....forgetting that the 2G RL was originally designed to compete against vehicles like the 535xi, A6 Quattro etc etc due to its better quality of materials and features.

"Edward'TLS" and "Jasonwdp10" touch on the rest of the topic very well.

The 4G has seen many reviews state that the rear seat and cargo area is small and at the bottom end of the scale for a midsize sedan. I believe the 4G is only .7 cubic feet away from being classified as a compact sedan. One can now see why some simple complaints like the 4G not having a flat floor trunk etc, exist. If Acura made the 4G trunk floor flat from its highest point, that could easily take away that .7 cubic feet and the 4G could become a compact by EPA standards overnight.

The 4G is a great car but if the 4G is a true competitor to vehicles like the 5 series etc because of its size then so are many other vehicles like the Buick Lacrosse, Maxima, VW CC, etc etc and those people could also claim that its a 20K better value. IMO I dont think they are in the same class but if size is the main and only criteria then to each his own.

JM2010 SH-AWD

I'll grant you the other cars mentioned have larger trunks. But if I were interested in hauling a lot of stuff around, I would have purchased an SUV. For some it may be an issue, for me it was not. The trunk is certainly large enough for normal use (golf clubs, luggage, etc.)

I don't believe the 4G is a competitor to the 5 series just because of the size. If you compare the performance, the 4G exceeds the 535 in acceleration and handling. If you look at features and equipment, for all significant purposes, they offer a similar level of features - the 4G has some things the BMW does not offer and vice versa.

When you throw in price and reliability, it gets to be a tough proposition for the 5 Series.

I seriously considered a 535 when I bought my TL. But I couldn't see shelling out the extra dough for a car that seemed to offer no discernable, commensurate, value added for the price difference and that was slower and likely to be less reliable.

cp3117

I see what your saying.

I need cargo capacity and fold down seats for my needs but prefer a car to an SUV. There isnt a problem with anybody wanting to compare one vehicle to the next, no matter what category its in. The criteria your using though as i mentioned before there are many other vehicles that one could look at and could also compare to 5 Series etc.

Did you cross-shop the Lacrosse, CC, Maxima, Hyundai, etc??

jjsC5

What makes you think they are selling cars for those prices? A V8 Genesis right now is selling for about $5,000 off sticker, and they are not selling very fast. Volkwagen has failed badly trying to upgrade to $40,000 Passats and CC's, and the Phaeton was a disaster.

If Acura wants to move up, they need a rear drive platform, a serious engine and time. They would be moving squarely into territory that BMW, Lexus and Mercedes do well in.

Acura also has to quit lagging the competition in important areas. They just came out with the six speed automatic when the competition has had them for years and are now moving to seven and eight speeds. 280-300 hp with no direct injection in the entire lineup is also bringing up the rear in the $40k and up price range. And for the size of the car, the interior and trunk space is not very impressive - even in the RL.

I'm a big fan of Acuras - I've owned three of them, in that they are great bang for the buck. But at $50k plus, it still has to have value. That means it has to have features and content that are greater than the competition simply because it has not earned a place to compete head to head with BMW and Mercedes.

JM2010 SH-AWD

No, I wanted a sporty sedan, thus eliminating Lacrosse and Hyundai and Maxima (the latter because of the CVT). The CC lacked the guts I was seeking. At the end, I was down to the 535, G37 and TL. The 535 was eliminated for the reasons set out above. And in the G37, no dealer in my area seemed interested in obtaining a 6MT for me. Almost every car on the lot here was a G37x with auto.

flchas

Only for a fully active suspension (with linear electromagnetic motors, similar to the Bose proof of concept sytem). I've been imagining/dreaming/waiting/lusting over such a vehicle for three decades now.

Cap'n Preshoot

Per my dealer, the RL just isn't selling, period. The only thing the RL has today that the TL doesn't is the radar-assisted cruise control (aka collision avoidance system) and that sure isn't worth 10~12k. The RL is also a mushier (IMO) ride. If I wanted a spongy ride I'd let some air out of the tires & recalibrate the TPS or for the addt'l money get a Lexus.

Putting a V8 in the TL would make it a lot heavier & turn it into a fuel pig. If I wanted a V8 RWD car with giddy-up & go I might consider getting a ZR1 Corvette, but that's too much $ to put into any Chevy and then have some "Bubba" at the Chevy dealer working on it. No thanks.

Pseudomaniac

iTrader: (1)

Since Honda doesn't seem to know how to design anything without making it a bubble or a wagon anymore, probably not. Global economy in the tank, expect a step back with the product line with the pricier options being alternate power (hybrid, electro, LPG, etc).

saturno_v

Going back to the original question....10-12K more for a TL?? Sure....in its current platform (traverse mounted V6) I would justify that kind of extra money with a twin turbo version (400 HP neighbourhood...it would be a killer proposition), active suspensions, and maybe even more electronic gadgets (radar controlled cruise control for example)


I believe Acura will go hybrid very soon.

Direct Injection engines....yes Honda is behind and I'm pretty sure it will catch up however the J Series V6 is a fantastic unit...buttery smooth and nice sound.....I just compared the C&D observed fuel consumption in the road test for the 2012 Tl SH-AWD and the new F10 535i xDrive....21 mpg for the TL and 15 for the BMW....that's right...6 mpg advantage for the big Acura....so Direct Injection doesn't necessarily mean that much...


I have no brand loyalty..I owned BMW, Audi, MB, Nissan, Chrysler, Alfa Romeo, etc....currently I drive my TL SH-AWD 6 speed....I'm your kind of "bang for your buck" type of guy....not only on feature list but on also on refinement and technical sophistication.

Up to 15 years ago I would never have considerd a Japanese premium car....early Infinitis and Lexuses were borderline pathetic...the first Acura I did like was the second series Legend.

But at the moment, on average, the Germans cannot just match the value proposition of the Japanese brands, is that simple....

BMW understand this and the free maintenance program is going in the right direction to bring up the value.

I totally agree....the TL is really a killer deal as a premium large sedan with AWD.....I cross shopped Germans and other Japanese brands....nobody could come close.....there were areas were others had the edge?? Of course but overall the TL was emerging as the winner in my metrics...if on my next car, the best value proposition for my need will be a Hyundai or a Suzuki, I will gladly switch brand.

I agree that the lack of folding rear seats is a big drawback of the tL...I would say the biggest gripe I have about the car in my book.

I agree again, however with a twist....Acura at some point in the past had more brand appeal than Audi...however the German brand kept pushing upmarket where Acura decided to play around the 6 Cylinder FWD arena for too long...and now is behind

Hit the nail int he head with that one!!

The Acura brand is very profitable....they use platforms and engines from the mainstream Honda and still capable to deliver real premium content...the only real Acura exclusive technology is the SH-AWD.....and it still sells more cars in Northamerica than Audi which has a vastly bigger model range and dedicated hardware....

However I think Acura has serius holes in its offering....without dreaming about V8 engines and RWD platforms I think, at minimum, they should introduce the SH-AWD on the TSX (I know at least 3 people, and two of them are Audi owners, that would immediately buy the TSX sportwagon if it had an AWD trim)...the reason why they don't it really baffle me....they could have a serious A4 competitor right there....then reintroducing a fun car like the S2000 would help too.

You are dead on.....many people buy because of the brand and looking for "logical" reasons afterward trying to justify their purchase...its a fact of life....some have the intellectual honesty to admit this (and there is nothing wrong with it...you can do whatever yoru want with your money) other instead won't admit it....I still laugh when someone has the guts to tell me that the interior of a 3 series is better in materials and design compared to a Tl.....it is really a joke....

So true.....the German brands (good for them) are master at this...they create halo models and hyper luxury and powerful version of a particular model creating a lot of buzz which help a lot in selling the lesser versions....the A4 2.0 turbo young buyer dream of the S4 one day so to speak....and the buyers of these cheaper trims are still paying for the more expensive ones and the plethora of options thourgh an inflated MSRP.

I seriously think that the less average reliability of the German brands do not hurt them that much, at least for the more expensive models...the typical buyer (the one that these brands covet the most) tend to change car every 3 years and, in addition to that, BMW, Audi and MB outlease all the others by a wide margin....the "ideal" buyer of these brands change car just at the end of the warranty period.

I buy my cars outright and I tend to keep them longer...one of the reason I keep myself away from the German trio

The 4G TL is a competitor of the 6 cylinder BMW not because someone says it on this forum but because Acura said so in its intentions..I even posted (more than once) the official Acura news document which clearly states that the intended competitor of the 4G are the 6 cylinder A6, MB E Class and 5 Series other than the higher version of the A4, C Class and 3 Series.

The Maxima (at least int he past) has always been considered an official competitor for the entry level 5 series....some would never compared tham because the Maxima is a FWD...however there are buyers that consider both in their shopping....for example when i got my 6 speed Maxima SE in 2002 I did cross shop with the E39 530i

jjsC5

I'm not sure what road test you are referring to so it's hard to comment. But I put no stock in what gas mileage the road testers get because I have no idea how they drive their cars or if they drive them the same. I use EPA figures, and whether they are accurate or not doesn't matter - I find that my mileage from one car to the next is pretty consistent from a relative standpoint with their ratings.

What you are missing is not necessarily gas mileage though - it's that the Acura engines are getting much worse horsepower for the given size engine and class of car. 280 hp from 3.5 liters and 305 from 3.7 is behind the current standard set by many other cars.

BTW, I do agree with almost all of your comments though.

saturno_v

BMW 535i xDrive C&D road test, EPA city/highway 19/29, C&D observed 15

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...take_road_test

Acura TL SH-AWD C&D road test, EPA city/highway 18/26, C&D observed 21

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...take_road_test


The power output of the J Series is still very good...not the first in class but close...the only naturally aspirated 3.7 liter cranking out more horsepower is the Infiniti but it is noticeably more thrashy at high rev and with a less fat torque curve...I take the 20 HP less and more buttery smooth functioning.
Even the pinnacle of the 6 cylinder sport sedans, the Porsche Panamera 3.6 cranks out the same amount of HP (300)

saturno_v

Even the newest kid on the block, the Audi A7, has comparable fuel consumption

Audi A7 C&D road test EPA city/highway 18/28, C&D observed 23

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...take_road_test

Finally ther queen of 6 cylinder four door...the Porsche Panamera 3.6 4 (naturally aspirated 3.6 liter V6 300 HP)
EPA 18/26, C&D observed 21..and from a pure performance standpoint (acceleration, braking, skidpad, grip, noise level) is basically a twin of the TL SH-AWD....at double the sticker price...

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...take_road_test