VTEC Racer

So it begins...

VTEC Racer

You're kidding, right? SSFTSX's major downfall is his complete lack of support to back up his claims. He NEVER has legitimately back up anything he has said with a direct source.

No one had a problem with him saying that the rising value of the Yen would affect the Japanese auto makers. He didn't predict it. It was already widely known by most analysts. The problem was his failure to accept the same thing was happening with the Euro and affecting VW even though the CEO's of the German companies were repeatedly making statements in regards to their concern over the declining value of the US dollar and the rising value of the Euro.

cp3117

Unfortunately i am not kidding. SSFTSX over the past few months i believe has provided more direct sources than you have to back up some of your claims or counterclaims.....but thats my

Watching you two argue over VW stocks is entertaining though as VW's true stock value cant be determined while Porsche is trying to buy them up. Porsche has laid off the last couple months and VW's stock has dropped, but after what Porsche did this week im sure it will go up again a few 100%

http://www.autoblog.com/2009/01/06/p...o-50/#comments

In regards to your response to SSFTSX comment about Audi's S1 and the 1.4L twincharger, you need to read up a little more about it as it is way ahead of the 4cyl TSX and the 1.4L is actually a few years old now.

http://www.ukipme.com/engineoftheyea...s_08/1_14.html

http://www.autoblog.com/2009/01/06/n...udi-s1-emerge/

A full litre smaller than the 2.4L TSX and better overall power and fuel economy is very impressive.

The slogan comment was funny also being that Acura changes its slogan almost yearly. Its no secret that Acura was trying to become the Japanese Audi and it only took Honda/Acura roughly 25 years to develop an AWD system that could compete with the Quattro. This is obviously coming to a halt though with all the cancellations and cutbacks from Honda unfortunately. This is the time of year Acura usually changes its slogan. I think with all the cancellations a more fitting one would be "Acura - Retreat".

Legend2TL

SSFTSX claimed the Audi's V6 diesel motor was more powerful than BMW's V6 diesel. He was wrong, he cited a Audi tuner who increased the boost of the Audi motor, not the Audi factory specification.

That's just one example of some fact checking myself and others have done on him. SSFTSX does post some actual facts but also posts information that is his opinion sounding like facts, incorrect or distorted. So quite often his sources do not back the claims and statements.

I like others on these forums love a good discussion when facts are presented or when your stating your opinion, otherwise they get tiresome fast.

SSFTSX

That discussion was about Audi techical ability to compete with BMW in Diesel power. And tuning was achieved with merely Software changes. nothing change in basic engine design which older than BMW. When you take things out of context than it distort things.

VTEC Racer

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SSFTSX

Yeah but Market cap of VW is more than Toyota/Honda Combined. There are alot of cheap cars that will outsell A4 in US market but it does not mean anything. A4 is global car. Audi has 1 million sales and will soon surpass BMW.
Acura is merely 15% in sales number of Audi and price per vehicle is way lower. Acura has neither the money nor technical ability to compete with Audi. It is doomed. We have hard data obout other things but some thing we cannot disclose for obvious reasons. The sooner Honda realized it the better they can save money to save there Civics/Cities around the Word.
(Another prediction. without efficient and powerful Turbos across lineup. Honda will be completely ejected from EU market). BMW and 2015. let see what happens in coming months.

Legend2TL

You distorted the fact that you were comparing a tuner S/W modified motor from Audi to a factory BMW motor. I'm fairly certain a BMW tuner could increase the BMW diesel motor also. A factory motor means it's certified and validated for emissions and manufacturer warranty. Just because you enhance the power of a motor with S/W does not mean it will meet emissions and last as long. Again it just proves that you on occasion misstate facts.

Legend2TL

Yeah, that's one I should take up as well!

VTEC Racer

(cp3117 take note)

Once again, you are avoiding the topic at hand and are changing the subject in order to just give yourself something to say for the sake of having something to say. With VW having more market cap than Honda and Toyota combined, then why is it that a single model from Honda or Toyota (several actually) is capable of outselling the ENTIRE VW brand in the U.S.? With all that market cap and money that they have, why don't they do something with it? Speaking of all that money that they have, you must have forgotten that VW recently went begging to the German government for loan guarantees. Again, this is something you need to prove, something you have never been able to do in the past.

Audi has NEVER, I repeat, NEVER sold 1 million cars globally. This was a goal that they have for 2008. It would be great for them if they reached it, but that has yet to be determined. Similarly, Audi has retracted its goal of outselling BMW by 2015.

Exactly what things are you not allowed to disclose here? I doubt that you have any information that may be classified because everything else you have spouted off here has been rubbish.

Again, you are spelling out Acura's doom as if you are Nostradamus and you have already foreseen it. I must have missed that quatrain. Honda, just like Audi and every other manufacturer, has had to implement drastic budget cuts. We don't know if Honda has suffered a loss for 2008, and I highly doubt it. As long as Honda stays profitable, they, along with Acura, will not be going anywhere anytime soon. VW needs to save its money also so it can save the Jetta because without the Jetta, we don't have the A4. I have already admitted that Honda doesn't have the money Audi has. But the have the technology and innovation on a scale that Audi has never seen. You can't even begin to compare the innovation of Honda products compared to those from Audi. Honda is in every corner of the mobility industry. Audi is in just one. In fact, Audi is doomed and will be expelled from the U.S. It was written in Nostradamus's quatrain regarding 2012. Audi is actually what will be leading to the demise of this planet. Look it up.

PetesTL

I guess ever since the "TL vs. Audi A4/Maxima" thread faded away, SSFTSX has found a new home. You guys better be prepared to argue 'til the 5G comes out.

hydr0

Where do you work, McDonald's??

My three credit bureau scores are 730, 752, and 775, and I had a hard time getting financing for my Acura because they used TransUnion, which is my lowest score. American Honda almost made me use a cosigner! I ultimately got it done, but not after days of going back and forth with the dealership about the credit.

Dealerships use banks for their financing, and ALL banks have made some serious changes as far as who they'll lend to and who they won't. Basically, if you're in $20K debt and make under $80K, you're not getting the loan, regardless of credit score. Lending has disappeared across the board, and it affects this industry almost as much as it does real estate.

CL6

Yea, I get people to fill out proof of income before I can sell them a Big Mac, how did you know?

It all depends on your circumstances, how much you put down, whether you are leasing or buying, how many auto loans you have on your record, how long you've been on the job, your debt-to-income ratio, etc.

I could have a Macy's card with a $200 limit and have an 800 FICO do you think I'm getting a loan with that?

While I will not say you are wrong I will say that it is not so black-and-white... I do this every day so I have some experience behind it. Also depends what brand of car you buy...

One thing that is a "problem" is that even though rates are low per the Fed Reserve banks are still keeping them high.

SSFTSX

This pure nonsense. THere is strict carbone tax and enviromnetal laws
THere is no car manufacturer in world that can compete with Audi in appliction of Turbos from Smallest to largets diesel gasolin engines. Why you think V6 Audi will be less powerful when I4/V8/V10/V12 Audi TDI surpasses BMW.
It take just $2K to upgrade with same reliability. Considering the German labor prices. It is nothing more than software tweaking.
http://www.mtm-online.de/en/index.ph...FZID=A5176TDiq

UK sales result is in. Honda is down 20%. BMW/MB also down but Audi stays the same. My predictions are right on the spot. It is just matter of time.
http://www.whatcar.com/news-article.aspx?NA=236826

How long Honda can survive with current lineup with no money and expertize left to create future products. If you dont built high end high performance cars regularly. You lose that collective experiance and project management and supply chain skills. It is not some thing that u can start and stop and start at future undetermined date.

SSFTSX

Frankly i wouldnt sell a $40K car to some one making less than $80K a year without cosigner.
Honda Accord/Civic SI fit them better. Just insurance/maintaince risk is big. But there arent that many people in $100 to $150k . There are too many choices available to them. Thats why Acura has to lower the price of TL to $30ks

Legend2TL

The only nonsense is your statement of a Audi Diesel V6 being more powerful than a BMW which is a lie. The simple fact remains the BMW is more powerful than the Audi from the manufacturers.

The % numbers are valuable but what is also needed is quantities sold of each manufacturer. Using your logic of pure % increase/decrease and not looking at volume numbers one can assume that

Smart +43.30%
Dodge +19.49%
Volvo +10.98%
Jaguar +8.73%
Kia +6.65%
Chevrolet +0.09%
Audi -0.02%

Smart, Dodge, Volvo, Jaguar, Kia, and Chevolet are in better shape than Audi?

SSFTSX

You make statement there is extensive changes that make engine powerful. which is not accurate. Audi engines in any category are not less powrful than BMW. BMW didnot have turbo charged 4cylinder and new S4 turbo charged is powerful than 335 with same capacity and better fuel economy in much heavier car. You just pick one engine which hasnt been updated for your arguement. Any firm in Germany that upgrade Audi engine for $2K means that is very small change.
It wont matter. BMW/MB/Honda biggest lead on Audi/VW is in US market. In EU/China Audi is on pretty solid ground. thats why Audi/VW want to increase in US market as they well know any sales collapse of BMW/MB/Honda will collapse these companies.
These are irrevlant brands with lower price per vehicle and not extensive lineup. Audi offer hundreds of variations in body style and engines/transmissions.

SSFTSX

Result is in. Audi is in One million club. Didnt i predict 1 million for Audi?.
UK is third largest market for Audi. I bet they either surpassed or in the same corner of BMW in monthly sales.

NedShneebly

You are all over the place. The new S4 is a SUPER-charged 3.0L V6, with comparable performance numbers to the 335 http://www.autoblog.com/2008/10/02/p...-2009-audi-s4/. One thing is very different, which it always has been with the S4, MSRP. The S4 starts at $57K http://autos.yahoo.com/audi/, and the 335i starts at $40K. I'm pretty sure if I spent that extra $17K on upgrades, I'd spank the S4. Frankly, the S4 has always had amazing numbers but weight keeps it from going as fast as it reads on paper.

Your court.

Legend2TL

I never made any statement saying there were extensive changes. I clearly stated the Audi engine ECU was S/W modified by a aftermarket tuner. You are clearly lying here, not only in your original claim but also making claims of my statements.

Jaguar and Volvo are in similar price areas as Audi, the point is how many vehicles are sold is as important as the % of increase/decrease.

SSFTSX

S4 is bigger and refined car with interior space closer to BMW-5 series. Latest report indicate. it would start either below or around $50K. S4 has upgraded interior and rims. Price differential is not much when you consider everything. Supercharged A6 starts at $50K.

S2000 Driver

Will the horror never end?

VTEC Racer

LOLOLOLOL OMG. NOW I have heard it all. Did everyone here get that SSFTSX PREDICTED that Audi would sell 1 million units this year for the first time ever even though Audi has been saying they plan on doing it since 2007. Amazing that crystal ball of his!

Now we just have to wait until sometime after 2015 for Audi to be able to pass BMW. Because as we all know, Audi said they cannot do it by 2015 anymore.

ggesq

iTrader: (1)

Folks- let's get this thread back on topic. Enough about Audi, BMW and other off topic stuff. This is not going to be the pseudo TL vs. A4 thread.

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

I know what you mean by Acura is only selling cars in North America, and so 20% drop in the States is very significant. I know that. Sure, Lexus and others sell cars not just in North America, and so a 20%+ drop may or may not affect them as much, provided that they do well in other parts of the world. BUT, as I posted earlier, these brands are experiencing major sale decline in Europe as well. Let me post that link again here for November 2008 sales in Europe,

http://blogs.motortrend.com/6395439/...ber/index.html

As you can see, some brands were doing fine, like Nissan, it's up 9.9%. But the brands that did well weren't luxury brands. If you go to that list, you can see BMW and Mercedes went down 29% and 22% respectively.

Now look at this link,

http://www.nationalpost.com/related/...tml?id=1081331

And as you can see, Lexus dropped by over 44%! Note that in this link, it says BMW fell 31%, which is different that the 29% figure posted above, that's because one number is corrected, and one is not (I think you know what I mean).

Clearly, the brands you mentioned, BMW, Lexus, and Mercedes, are also suffering major sales decline in BOTH Europe and US.

I think you meant to say it's one of the most efficient V6's as I quoted many many times in different threads from different sources - C&D, Motortrend, Edmunds, etc. No need to argue on this anymore.

I was talking about hybrids, not diesel. And Lexus is pretty much the only one that has it for luxury brands for now.

CL6

I think diesel will be a non-starter in the US. Honda will continue with its model to sell smallish, fuel-efficient 4 cylinder engines and will probably try and push the V6 as far as it can go with Acura. Honda does have a lot riding on the US market as the Japanese market is shrinking and they do not have the size of VW or Toyota globally but just because they aren't the biggest fish in the pond doesn't mean they still can't do well.

cai06

??

You make it sound as if Honda is struggling to survive.. that definitely is not true.

Honda is much bigger than Nissan, Subaru, PSA, Hyundai, Daimler, Fiat, BMW, Mitsubishi, Suzuki, Mazda, Kia, etc.. any of these latter companies are in much more difficult position for that matter. Honda has a more conservative management but that is a wholedifferent story.

ref http://oica.net/wp-content/uploads/w...nking-2007.pdf

VTEC Racer

http://www.vtec.net/news/news-item?news_item_id=808157

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

I'm pretty sure Nissan and quite sure Hyundai are bigger than Honda. But sometimes Honda outsells Nissan, and it's not far away from Hyundai. Kia is owned by Hyundai by the way.

crxb

Bloomberg News
BMW, Mercedes, Lexus Car Sales May Drop to 13-Year Low in U.S.

Jan. 9 (Bloomberg) -- Bayerische Motoren Werke AG, Mercedes-Benz and Toyota Motor Corp.’s Lexus division may see U.S. sales of luxury cars plunge again this year, after the financial crisis sparked the segment’s biggest decline in at least two decades in 2008.

Industry sales of the vehicles may fall below 1 million in the U.S. for the first time since 1996 as premium brands drop faster than mainstream models, unlike in previous recessions, said Rebecca Lindland, an IHS Global Insight Inc. analyst. Sales of the premium cars and sport-utility vehicles may slide 13 percent this year after falling 19 percent in 2008, she said.

“If you go to dinner parties, there’s a certain atmosphere of almost fear in the air,” said Jim O’Donnell, president of BMW of North America LLC, which in 2008 had its first U.S. sales decline in 16 years. “People are sitting on the sidelines wondering what’s happening.”

The crisis that started in the housing market spread across the U.S. economy including Wall Street, where many buyers of expensive products are employed. More than 232,000 bankers and brokers have lost their jobs. The meltdown amounts to a $325 billion drag on consumer spending, with luxury goods taking a disproportionately large hit, Goldman, Sachs & Co. estimates.

Audi, Bentley

The luxury category is defined by brand image as well as price, sweeping in the A3 of Volkswagen AG’s Audi at less than $30,000 and the $330,000 Azure from Volkswagen’s Bentley.

Entry-level buyers are among those hurt most by the slump. Those customers used rising home equity or stock portfolios to trade up, helping luxury sales almost double from 1996 to 2004, said Greg Goodwin, chief executive officer of Kuni Automotive in Vancouver, Washington. Kuni has 11 dealerships, including Lexus and BMW stores.

Sales of BMW 3-Series sedans and Lexus ES models at Kuni dealerships in Washington, Oregon and Colorado are falling, as are the entry-level SUVs such as the BMW X3, Goodwin said. Declines at his stores matched the 15 percent slide for BMW and 21 percent drop for Lexus nationally, he said.

Even business owners and executives whose jobs are secure are reluctant to purchase a new luxury car when they may have to fire workers or make other cuts, Goodwin said.

This recession affects wealthier consumers more than past slumps because more people have 401(k) retirement plans and other assets directly pinned to the stock market, said Lindland, of IHS Global in Lexington, Massachusetts.

“The people that are being impacted, the typical luxury buyer, are usually much more insulated,” she said.

Luxury car sales may fall to 901,505 this year from 1.04 million last year and luxury SUV volume may slide to 467,416 from 525,221, according to IHS Global.

Lehman Brothers Effect

BMW sales dropped first in California and Florida when those real estate markets collapsed, O’Donnell said. He said sales in those states were starting to stabilize for the German carmaker until the Sept. 15 Lehman Brothers Holdings Inc. bankruptcy erased demand in the U.S. Northeast.

“The lights just went out,” he said.

BMW will try to keep dealers profitable by focusing more on used cars, O’Donnell said. Dealers sold a record 11,700 pre- owned BMW models in December, he said.

Daimler AG’s Mercedes-Benz posted an 11 percent decline in sales last year. “The luxury buyers are certainly going through a lot of the pain the mainstream market is,” said Donna Boland, spokeswoman for Mercedes-Benz in Montvale, New Jersey. “The bottom line is that they feel less wealthy.”

The German company hasn’t ramped up incentives to sell more vehicles, though it has cut production in the U.S., she said.

Avoiding Incentives

Sales of General Motors Corp.’s Cadillac brand fell 25 percent in 2008, while Honda Motor Co.’s Acura was down 20 percent and Nissan Motor Co.’s Infiniti dropped 11 percent, according to Woodcliff Lake, New Jersey-based Autodata Corp. Lexus has been the U.S. luxury leader since 2000, after unseating Mercedes in 1999. The last year a U.S. brand lead the market was Lincoln in 1998.

“We don’t know how bad it can possibly get at this point, or how much will new product help us this year,” said Greg Thome, a spokesman for Lexus in Torrance, California, which doesn’t have a 2009 forecast. “Last year, we didn’t get a bump from any new high-volume product.”

U.S. sales of Germany’s Porsche SE fell 25 percent in 2008, dragged down by a 31 percent drop in sales of its 911 Carrera sports car. Porsche won’t use incentives to help sell cars, said Tony Fouladpour, a spokesman based in Atlanta.

“Even in times like these, our top priority is to hold the value of our models for our current customers and maintain the integrity of the Porsche,” he said.

Brand Image

Large cash rebates hurt brand image, said Jesse Toprak, director of market forecasting for Santa Monica, California- based Edmunds.com, which tracks incentives for consumers. The premium manufacturers use incentives to dealers and support for more affordable lease payments instead, he said.

Sales may improve after a proposed stimulus package from President-elect Barack Obama and U.S. interest-rate cuts take hold, said Dana Johnson, chief economist of Comerica Bank in Dallas.

“This is a time when people are behaving conservatively,” he said. “The concerns about job losses are far more widespread, across more business sectors, than normal, particularly with the financial services losses.”

JD23

Sorry, but you're wrong about Nissan. Last year, Honda had revenues that were 20% greater than those of Nissan and net income that was 25% higher. Also, Honda's market cap is $40 billion, while Nissan's is only $15 billion.

http://finance.google.com/finance?q=NYSE:HMC

Stash

You could make the same arguments about the purchase of non-luxury brands because xxxx people are out of a job.

CL6

Yea what did I say... that Honda doesn't have the size of VW (#3 in your link) and Toyota (#2 in your link) but they can still do well. And Nissan and Renault are the same owner so they outrank Honda if you combine them.

There are a million ways to cut the numbers but you can also look at how much profit per unit sold, how many countries those sales come from, labor expenses, etc...

But what I said was correct... they ain't the biggest but they can still do well.

SSFTSX

You dont have full insight into the issue. and it is not simple as % age decline. Honda has very narrowd base in product expertize. Most of money is concentrated in simply 4 cylinder Civic/Accord/CRV and there Acura derivatives. So percentage decline is effecting tham more as they make money out selling lot of simple products.
Almost any manufacturer can upmarket the interior with right suppliers. It is not big deal. It is the high power diesel/transmission/Platforms/Global Presence that make company successful.
I will give you example of Toyota Landcruiser. Toyota makes more money out of its single product than than Honda can make of its entire Acura brand.
Just count the LandCruiser supply to World Militaries/Aristocrates/Big petroleum and Mining giants.and above all UN operations. They are paying top dollar for this Vehicle. Even $100K in some countries.
Its far cheaper & faster for companies like VW/Toyota to develop Tier 1 products because of there vast experiance and ready network.
And around the world Prestige and Status is now associated with deisel fuel not with car powered by Premium fuel. SUV are big influence.
So in coming iteration dont be surprized by 400 to 600 bhp/800 to 900 lb-ft diesel powered A8. Such diesel powered vehcile will enough have power to achieve 100mph @1500 rpm and still getting 30mpg. Cars will be measured by low end torque not bhp.
Its ok that diesel is 20 to 30% more expensive in US but diesel power vehicle gets 30 to 40% better fuel economy for similar performance.
The objective is to reduce amount of fuel (hence lesse enviornmental damage) used for given distance not the price of fuel alone.
VW/BMW/MB has just started the diesel revolution in US. so it will take some time.

J.A.S.

The time I spent reading this thread is time I can never get back. Put a fork in it and spare others.

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

Yes, that's exactly what I mean, Honda can sell more cars, and make more money than Nissan but "physically" Nissan is a bigger company. Or may be that was years (or even decades ago..lol).

Colin

C'mon, this isn't that bad. Try this one on for size:
https://acurazine.com/forums/4g-tl-2009-2014-123/tl-sh-awd-vs-audi-a4-697862/

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

For your first part, of course, Toyota has been very successful. I'm not arguing that at all. I mean, isn't Toyota ranked No#1 in the world now?

Lol, well Honda makes a lot of different things too, such as jet, lawnmowers, atv's, power equipment, and bikes. But I don't know how Honda does in those markets.

I don't think having very little products is necessary a bad thing. I mean back in the 90's, Nissan got screwed over because it had too many cars. As a result Renault gained control of Nissan and eventually Ghosn got rid of a lot of unnecessary platforms and building several models on each new platform. So far is has been quite successful for Nissan and I think it's part of the "180" plan. At least Nissan went from losing money to making profit. Honda is doing that too, just like a lot of companies - one platform for many models. That saves a lot of development cost. A lot of companies don't make their own gearboxes. In fact, Honda is one of the rare companies that design their own gearboxes. Most companies use gearboxes from suppliers like Jatco (owned by Nissan), Aisin (owned by Toyota), Getrag, ZF, etc. It's true that any company has the choice to choose another company to make their interior materials. But the problem is cost. Will companies want to pay more for better material quality?

And I agree too, it's much easier for big companies like VW and Toyota to develop tier-1 cars.

Man, I can't believe this, but also agree on the diesel issue. I personally like diesel as it's great for city driving. And Audi recently proved that diesel engines can also be applied to racing in their R8.

CL6

As long as diesel remains more than gas I think it will remain a non-starter for most except enthusiasts.

SSFTSX

I mentioned Toyota because they have recently announced $1.6B loss for fiscal year ended March 2009. So Toyota with far higher priced products and profitable lineup than Honda is announcing loss but Honda with its tiny price product line and much more depended on US/Japan market is showing profits. Do you see some the difference between the two companies management.

How do u think RollsRoyce/BMW/Diamler (Owner of Eurojet/EADS) history in airplane engines.
Honda only have joint venture on very small capacity aero engine whose key part comes from GE. Any big Auto Giant can enter aeroengine business with right amount of money but no one is stupid.
You dont become Tier 1 by building household power machines or lawn movers. Otherwise Siemens would have been the Tier one supplier of Car engines. It is unique blend of experiance of engine/transmission/platform/aerodynamics/insulation/weight.
It is far easier and cheaper to create Toyota Corrolla replacement but far difficult and expensive to create LS460 new model. Honda is good in former.


Another Japanese company which is well known for Its Turbo and diesel engine is Mitsubishi but they become alot smaller when Japanese shrank into half in 90s. Same bad patch happen to Nissan. Honda was lucky as at that time it was mostly concentrating on small fuel efficient cars without too many platforms. but now situation is different. Now even Korean/Chinese will enter low end business. so Honda business model isnt working for long term.
They simply dont have the expertize and money needed to create more higher end products.
[qipte]
And I agree too, it's much easier for big companies like VW and Toyota to develop tier-1 cars.

Man, I can't believe this, but also agree on the diesel issue. I personally like diesel as it's great for city driving. And Audi recently proved that diesel engines can also be applied to racing in their R8.[/QUOTE]
Diesel is the future. 60% cars in EU are already deisel. and 99% SUVs outside US are on diesel.
That time is soon coming when Audi8/BMW7/MB S class top model will be diesel.
You cannot say the same about Acura profits to Honda and credit scores of its customers.

Acura is not leader in any technology nor it can contribute profits to low cost Honda strategy.
Can Acura CEO make such statement.
It seems there is no independence in Acura from bean counters sitting at its parent company Honda.