Automobilemag.com: Acura Tl vs Audi S4
07-19-2010, 01:49 PM
#41
Mademoiselle Chanel!!
Walk like an Egyptian...kidding.
07-19-2010, 01:52 PM
#42
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As far as interior quality, evrything prior to the 4th gen TL I would agree was below the Audi in interior quality. I have always been a fan of Audis tight leather. Trust me when I say that I have been the biggest Audi fan, I still want to get one (not a new one, the direct injected engines are the worst ever, I want a b6 a4) but it doesnt change that their reliability is lacking.
I feel the 4th gen interior is equal or greater to the current audi line up. I know a lot of you complain about the buttons on the dash, but honestly they make sense. Have you had a chance to play with the new Audi MMI? it sucks, there are no buttons. There is just one know to control everything, you have to exit this screen to adjust this screen then go back to that screen to adjust the other screen. Its lame.
Ona personal note, do you have the v6 or the 2.0t for your a4?
I feel the 4th gen interior is equal or greater to the current audi line up. I know a lot of you complain about the buttons on the dash, but honestly they make sense. Have you had a chance to play with the new Audi MMI? it sucks, there are no buttons. There is just one know to control everything, you have to exit this screen to adjust this screen then go back to that screen to adjust the other screen. Its lame.
Ona personal note, do you have the v6 or the 2.0t for your a4?
Great sounding engine, and it's related somewhat to the R32 so I always wondered about getting an exhaust for it.
07-19-2010, 02:43 PM
#43
My only problem with your comparison (and I'll admit I have the same problem with the S4/TL comparison) is that you are taking cars that are clearly in 2 different size categories and comparing them based on price. Based on the size of the TL (195.5"), it should be compared with the 5 series at 193.1" and the A6 at 193.5".
The problem with comparing them based on the size of the car is that a 2011 535i RWD 6MT starts at $49600 and you haven't added one option, your seats will be "leatherette" (BMW's fancy terminology for cheap vinyl interior) and it will be alpine white or jet black any other color will increase the price. Your car has 5 hp less than a TL SHAWD and you have 27 more ft/lbs of torque.
A 2010 Audi A6 3.2 starts at $45200 and again this is a car with absolutely no options. In this case you are buying a "front track" (Audi's fancy terminology for front wheel drive) with a CVT transmission. You have 30 less hp than a TL SHAWD and you also have 30 less ft/lbs of torque. Fortunately, you will weigh 31 lbs less than a TL but if you were to add all of the options the TL SHAWD came with the advantage would be gone.
Now I'll admit that in the case of BMW and Audi they do allow things like engine options so you could take the performance advantages and change them around quite a bit but it will come at a huge cost and the magazines don't seem to like to compare a $43000 TL to a $60000 Audi and a $60000 BMW (being a stripped down A6 4.2 and a stripped BMW 550i). So what they do is take a car that offers an actual size equivalent and near power equivalent in the case of TL vs. BMW 535i and a power advantage in the case TL vs A6 3.2 and not compare them because they won't be anywhere near comparably equipped and the car that is the least expensive by several thousand dollars is fully loaded with AWD and the 2 cars that are 2000 to 6000 more expensive are stripped down cars that aren't AWD. To keep the pricing in check, the only thing they can do is take a Audi or a BMW (S4/335xi) that is actually an equivalent size to the TSX and compare it to the TL.
Unfortunately in the real world some people need cars of a certain size and can't just get away with a small car like a 335xi or S4 because it offers better performance stats or higher quality on interior panels at only a few thousand dollars higher cost than a TL. Along with that, in the real world most people have a budget that they work with when they buy a car so if they need a car in the size of a TL, to get a comparably sized BMW or Audi would be more than expensive than the TL and when you comparably equip those 5 series and A6's they fly even further out of the budget.
So with all things considered the TL offers quite an attractive package of a good sized car with great performance and a huge amount of features (not to mention Honda reliability) at a very attractive price point that can't really be matched by Audi and BMW.
The problem with comparing them based on the size of the car is that a 2011 535i RWD 6MT starts at $49600 and you haven't added one option, your seats will be "leatherette" (BMW's fancy terminology for cheap vinyl interior) and it will be alpine white or jet black any other color will increase the price. Your car has 5 hp less than a TL SHAWD and you have 27 more ft/lbs of torque.
A 2010 Audi A6 3.2 starts at $45200 and again this is a car with absolutely no options. In this case you are buying a "front track" (Audi's fancy terminology for front wheel drive) with a CVT transmission. You have 30 less hp than a TL SHAWD and you also have 30 less ft/lbs of torque. Fortunately, you will weigh 31 lbs less than a TL but if you were to add all of the options the TL SHAWD came with the advantage would be gone.
Now I'll admit that in the case of BMW and Audi they do allow things like engine options so you could take the performance advantages and change them around quite a bit but it will come at a huge cost and the magazines don't seem to like to compare a $43000 TL to a $60000 Audi and a $60000 BMW (being a stripped down A6 4.2 and a stripped BMW 550i). So what they do is take a car that offers an actual size equivalent and near power equivalent in the case of TL vs. BMW 535i and a power advantage in the case TL vs A6 3.2 and not compare them because they won't be anywhere near comparably equipped and the car that is the least expensive by several thousand dollars is fully loaded with AWD and the 2 cars that are 2000 to 6000 more expensive are stripped down cars that aren't AWD. To keep the pricing in check, the only thing they can do is take a Audi or a BMW (S4/335xi) that is actually an equivalent size to the TSX and compare it to the TL.
Unfortunately in the real world some people need cars of a certain size and can't just get away with a small car like a 335xi or S4 because it offers better performance stats or higher quality on interior panels at only a few thousand dollars higher cost than a TL. Along with that, in the real world most people have a budget that they work with when they buy a car so if they need a car in the size of a TL, to get a comparably sized BMW or Audi would be more than expensive than the TL and when you comparably equip those 5 series and A6's they fly even further out of the budget.
So with all things considered the TL offers quite an attractive package of a good sized car with great performance and a huge amount of features (not to mention Honda reliability) at a very attractive price point that can't really be matched by Audi and BMW.
What is insulting is the new TL has substantially grown in length and width and it does not equate to better use of interior or trunk room compared to the last generation. Compared to the new 5 series or E class or A6 the TL interior is obviously smaller. Poor design and engineering here. So why brag on size if it isn't really bigger inside?
The new 5 series is now based on the 7 series. So it maybe pricey TO YOU but it maybe a bargain to many others. In contrast we all know the TL is based on the Accord.
I encourage you to test drive the new 5 series. It is quite an amazing car and worth the money.
"Value" is all relative.
07-19-2010, 03:11 PM
#44
BMWs pricey? Somebody has to pay for all that allegedly "free" maintenance. As they say, there's no such thing as a free ride.
I drove the previous gen 5 series. Nice car. To me, nowhere near worth the money. As previously mentioned, I've owned two BMWs (3s). There came a point in time where I thought BMW became way too greedy in their pricing,
for what you get. That's when I moved away from buying them (as well as the maintenance charges after the warranty is up).
Justify the price of them anyway you want. That's what BMW is hoping you'll do. Pay $60K for a car that for all intents and purposes is the same size and performance level as the TL? Have at it. I won't. Some will, though.
I've heard all the heartache regarding comparing a Mustang GT with an M3 for that very reason. Let's see.....buy two 2011 Mustang GTs for the price of one M3? Similar size and performance. Gimme the Mustangs.
I drove the previous gen 5 series. Nice car. To me, nowhere near worth the money. As previously mentioned, I've owned two BMWs (3s). There came a point in time where I thought BMW became way too greedy in their pricing,
for what you get. That's when I moved away from buying them (as well as the maintenance charges after the warranty is up).
Justify the price of them anyway you want. That's what BMW is hoping you'll do. Pay $60K for a car that for all intents and purposes is the same size and performance level as the TL? Have at it. I won't. Some will, though.
I've heard all the heartache regarding comparing a Mustang GT with an M3 for that very reason. Let's see.....buy two 2011 Mustang GTs for the price of one M3? Similar size and performance. Gimme the Mustangs.
07-19-2010, 03:40 PM
#46
Size does not dicate where a car's class is in. The TL has always been a "Tweener", an entry level car the size of a mid size. Every generation of TL has been like that. That is part of its appeal and perceived "Value" with the American way of thinking "more car for less".
What is insulting is the new TL has substantially grown in length and width and it does not equate to better use of interior or trunk room compared to the last generation. Compared to the new 5 series or E class or A6 the TL interior is obviously smaller. Poor design and engineering here. So why brag on size if it isn't really bigger inside?
The new 5 series is now based on the 7 series. So it maybe pricey TO YOU but it maybe a bargain to many others. In contrast we all know the TL is based on the Accord.
I encourage you to test drive the new 5 series. It is quite an amazing car and worth the money.
"Value" is all relative.
What is insulting is the new TL has substantially grown in length and width and it does not equate to better use of interior or trunk room compared to the last generation. Compared to the new 5 series or E class or A6 the TL interior is obviously smaller. Poor design and engineering here. So why brag on size if it isn't really bigger inside?
The new 5 series is now based on the 7 series. So it maybe pricey TO YOU but it maybe a bargain to many others. In contrast we all know the TL is based on the Accord.
I encourage you to test drive the new 5 series. It is quite an amazing car and worth the money.
"Value" is all relative.
As far as the TL's size, there are points of the vehicle which have grown substantially in width and length, which is where they measure from but the entire vehicle is not all that much larger overall. It's pretty much longer in the bumpers and wider in the fenders as a product of the design not so much increased size. The numbers will make it appear as though this is the case but really the car grew the most in length as a reflection of extending the overhangs on the bumpers to balance the proportions. You can't get interior volume out of the insides of bumpers and the 4G is not built on a much larger wheelbase than the 3G at all.
I am not saying that when looking at the numbers the ratio is great but you have to look past just numbers from time to time.
There is no doubt the 5 is an amazing car but when the TL SH is right there in the same size and overall performance categories, is significantly cheaper and for an added MSRP of $5k, I am pretty sure Acura could get the same level of luxury and refinement out of the TL plus add a few of the missing features and it would still cost $15k+ less comparably equipped, worst case still price at or below $50k and as always, able to be purchased for less. That is a better value IMO especially when the reliability track record speaks for itself and Acura's combination of brand safety and resale is unmatched.
Naturally if you think a premium of $20k is warranted for a 5 series over a TL when comparably equipped you are not here, you probably already have one or are cross shopping it with something else.
Last edited by winstrolvtec; 07-19-2010 at 03:44 PM.
07-19-2010, 04:55 PM
#48
COTM Coordinator
She has the 3.2 FSI. It was a clearance model, end of the year or whatever you want to call it. For the same price of a 2010 2.0T TFSI we could get the V-6 with V-6 power and refinement, so it was a no brainer.
Great sounding engine, and it's related somewhat to the R32 so I always wondered about getting an exhaust for it.
Great sounding engine, and it's related somewhat to the R32 so I always wondered about getting an exhaust for it.
07-19-2010, 05:14 PM
#49
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Typo. I meant to say "For the price of a 2010 2.0T we could get a brand new V-6 lot car that simply said 2009." Like I said, it was still brand new.
But anyhow, is the 2.0T unreliable? I knew there were issues initially with the old model, but I thought the current 2.0T was just repgrammed or something.
The 3.2 FSI is a "big" feeling engine though. At least Car & Driver tested one at 5.7 to 60 and 100 mph through the quarter. That's not bad for small V-6 with only 265 horsepower and an automatic. It torques up really well from down low too, much better than any J-Series I've driven.
Good car, but a little pricey.
But anyhow, is the 2.0T unreliable? I knew there were issues initially with the old model, but I thought the current 2.0T was just repgrammed or something.
The 3.2 FSI is a "big" feeling engine though. At least Car & Driver tested one at 5.7 to 60 and 100 mph through the quarter. That's not bad for small V-6 with only 265 horsepower and an automatic. It torques up really well from down low too, much better than any J-Series I've driven.
Good car, but a little pricey.
07-19-2010, 05:35 PM
#50
Trolling Canuckistan
Size does not dicate where a car's class is in. The TL has always been a "Tweener", an entry level car the size of a mid size. Every generation of TL has been like that. That is part of its appeal and perceived "Value" with the American way of thinking "more car for less".
Go to Edmunds and bring up a comparison between the A6 TL and 5 Series, they are all extremely similar in their dimensions both interior and exterior and they all offer very similar features. Each one has some features not available on the others. The one place the A6 and 5 Series can't compare with the TL is the price category.
I'm not saying that means the BMW and Audi suck, just that the A4 and 3 series are classified as "compact cars" and the A6, 5 Series and TL are classified as "mid sized cars". Why not compare 3 mid sized cars in stead of 2 compacts and 1 midsized?
07-19-2010, 05:37 PM
#51
I agree with the torque comment. I occasionally drive an A5 and the low end is amazing, my base TL can't even compare.
I wish they continued to develop it instead of just cutting it out of the lineup.
I wish they continued to develop it instead of just cutting it out of the lineup.
07-19-2010, 05:52 PM
#52
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On the topic of Audi, man they're starting to get pricey as I look on their US site.
They used to be priced lower than the other Germans. My wife's prior Audi, the 2002 A6, was priced well under what a E320 or 530i would've run. Now it's the opposite it seems. When we bought the 2009 A4, I was taken aback a little at what they were charging (about as much for this "small car" as her old midsize car).
Yesterday I rode in a client (and now friend's) S6 (pre-MMC) and really nice car (he said next time he'd let me have a go in it if I wanted!!!!), but it was about 75 thousand base and is on par with the performance of the standard V-8 5-Series and E-Class that were about 60 base.
They used to be priced lower than the other Germans. My wife's prior Audi, the 2002 A6, was priced well under what a E320 or 530i would've run. Now it's the opposite it seems. When we bought the 2009 A4, I was taken aback a little at what they were charging (about as much for this "small car" as her old midsize car).
Yesterday I rode in a client (and now friend's) S6 (pre-MMC) and really nice car (he said next time he'd let me have a go in it if I wanted!!!!), but it was about 75 thousand base and is on par with the performance of the standard V-8 5-Series and E-Class that were about 60 base.
07-19-2010, 08:58 PM
#53
Drifting
I don't think that the 2.0TFSI is terrible, but it does sound a bit noisy and it is way less refined than the 3.2FSI or the TL's 3.7. The noise that the 2.0T makes is a little bit downmarket... IMHO! That said, the 2.0T does have a lot of low end power that is great for local driving. However, on the freeway, it feels like it's struggling a little bit when accelerating and passing, esp. when comparing to the V6. So it depends on what you want - the power during local driving or the power on the freeway.
I had my heart set on an A4 2.0T but once I test drove the 3.2 FSI and then the 3.7TL, I knew that the V6 was for me - it's so much smoother and quieter. Much more luxurious.
I had my heart set on an A4 2.0T but once I test drove the 3.2 FSI and then the 3.7TL, I knew that the V6 was for me - it's so much smoother and quieter. Much more luxurious.
07-19-2010, 09:16 PM
#54
COTM Coordinator
Considering the new fuel economy restraints that are going to be taking place in 2012 or 13, I cant remember, it makes perfect sense.
07-19-2010, 09:27 PM
#55
COTM Coordinator
Dont get me wrong, the 2.0T has great potential and is a very peppy 4 cylinder in stock form. Put an APR stage 1+ or even 2+ chip and you can beat a lot of the cars on the road. The TQ numbers are incredible.
The reason I talk negatively about the 2.0T is because of all the issues that engine has.
Cam follower issue- used to actuate the high flow fuel pump, does not receive proper oiling and has premature wear on the follower which eventually damage the camshaft and cause lean conditions in the higher rpm range.
Diverter Valve (better known as a blow off valve, but recirculates the air back into the intake instead of into the atmosphere) is made of delicate material that tends to break easily resulting in compressor (turbo) pressure loss.
Carbon Buildup on intake valves- because of the direct fuel injection, the valves do not get "washed" by the fuel during the injection process like a intake runner injection. This results in excessive carbon build up on the valves that can potentially cause the valves to seize.
Some of this crap is ridiculous, and the cleaning of the intake valves is something that has to be done on a preventative maintenance schedule. If its built up on the valves, it takes scraping the carbon off to clean it.
The reason I talk negatively about the 2.0T is because of all the issues that engine has.
Cam follower issue- used to actuate the high flow fuel pump, does not receive proper oiling and has premature wear on the follower which eventually damage the camshaft and cause lean conditions in the higher rpm range.
Diverter Valve (better known as a blow off valve, but recirculates the air back into the intake instead of into the atmosphere) is made of delicate material that tends to break easily resulting in compressor (turbo) pressure loss.
Carbon Buildup on intake valves- because of the direct fuel injection, the valves do not get "washed" by the fuel during the injection process like a intake runner injection. This results in excessive carbon build up on the valves that can potentially cause the valves to seize.
Some of this crap is ridiculous, and the cleaning of the intake valves is something that has to be done on a preventative maintenance schedule. If its built up on the valves, it takes scraping the carbon off to clean it.
07-20-2010, 07:58 AM
#56
Hard for me to wrap my arms around the 2.0 turbo VW/Audi motor. Maybe...perhaps get away with it in a VW. But, in the class of the Audi A4/5? A 4 cyl (regardless of turbo) is a tough sale....especially at the price point they're asking. It's just extremely difficult to justify given the class of car the A4/5 is supposed to be....given that their competition has 6 cyl motors, at the same (or less) price point.
07-20-2010, 02:35 PM
#57
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The article indicates the 6-6 throttle is out of whack. I'm no Automobile employee, ex-race car driver, Acura engine engineer, etc. so I didn't notice an overly aggressive throttle tip in or slow throttle response when test driving the car a few times. Do owners experience this or notice it at all?
In any case, this gives me another excuse to test drive the car. Yippee!
In any case, this gives me another excuse to test drive the car. Yippee!
07-20-2010, 04:21 PM
#58
I just think they meant that the throttle (gas pedal) is a bit touchy. I noticed this on both my 2006 civic and my 2010 SHAWD. They both had a "lunging" sensation if you pressed the gas pedal a certain way (too fast) You need to moderate the amount of pressure of the pedal otherwise it may be a bit "jumpy"
07-20-2010, 07:56 PM
#59
Drifting
The article indicates the 6-6 throttle is out of whack. I'm no Automobile employee, ex-race car driver, Acura engine engineer, etc. so I didn't notice an overly aggressive throttle tip in or slow throttle response when test driving the car a few times. Do owners experience this or notice it at all?
In any case, this gives me another excuse to test drive the car. Yippee!
In any case, this gives me another excuse to test drive the car. Yippee!
But you're right - another excuse for a test ride!
07-20-2010, 09:58 PM
#60
It may just be on earlier models. Read Jeff's first drive of the SHAWD model at the temple of vtec, he also speaks about it.
Surprisingly, my friends 2007 civic sedan did not display the touchy throttle that my 06 had (06 was the first year model). I don't notice it much on either TL i had (i felt it slightly in my shawd, but not my base), but it's possible the 2009's could have been touchy due to them not correcting them from the factory like my 06 civic.
Surprisingly, my friends 2007 civic sedan did not display the touchy throttle that my 06 had (06 was the first year model). I don't notice it much on either TL i had (i felt it slightly in my shawd, but not my base), but it's possible the 2009's could have been touchy due to them not correcting them from the factory like my 06 civic.
07-21-2010, 04:20 PM
#61
Hard for me to wrap my arms around the 2.0 turbo VW/Audi motor. Maybe...perhaps get away with it in a VW. But, in the class of the Audi A4/5? A 4 cyl (regardless of turbo) is a tough sale....especially at the price point they're asking. It's just extremely difficult to justify given the class of car the A4/5 is supposed to be....given that their competition has 6 cyl motors, at the same (or less) price point.
How it compares to the vehicles these motors are in is what we should be looking at. A couple years ago there was a debate here between the A4 2.0T 6AT vs 4G SH-AWD. The performance numbers where basically the same with the 2.0T having better acceleration in some areas and better passing power. The only area it really lacked compared to the TL was in the obvious higher speed ranges at 110-120Mph+. So unless your at a track or driving 120+ in your neighborhood (which hopefully isnt my neighborhood) the 2.0T really is much nicer IMO when you look at the overall picture.
While others have mentioned some problems with the early 2.0T it is a little over exaggerated. If you maintain the engine properly you could still have some issues as i believe VW has TSB's out on some of the issues but the majority of the problems people are seeing are with people modding, using different oils and trying to extend oil change intervals etc.
You dont win the International Engine of the Year Award for 5 consecutive years in one of the toughest categories for having a crappy engine.
07-21-2010, 05:23 PM
#62
Size does not dicate where a car's class is in. The TL has always been a "Tweener", an entry level car the size of a mid size. Every generation of TL has been like that. That is part of its appeal and perceived "Value" with the American way of thinking "more car for less".
What is insulting is the new TL has substantially grown in length and width and it does not equate to better use of interior or trunk room compared to the last generation. Compared to the new 5 series or E class or A6 the TL interior is obviously smaller. Poor design and engineering here. So why brag on size if it isn't really bigger inside?
The new 5 series is now based on the 7 series. So it maybe pricey TO YOU but it maybe a bargain to many others. In contrast we all know the TL is based on the Accord.
I encourage you to test drive the new 5 series. It is quite an amazing car and worth the money.
"Value" is all relative.
What is insulting is the new TL has substantially grown in length and width and it does not equate to better use of interior or trunk room compared to the last generation. Compared to the new 5 series or E class or A6 the TL interior is obviously smaller. Poor design and engineering here. So why brag on size if it isn't really bigger inside?
The new 5 series is now based on the 7 series. So it maybe pricey TO YOU but it maybe a bargain to many others. In contrast we all know the TL is based on the Accord.
I encourage you to test drive the new 5 series. It is quite an amazing car and worth the money.
"Value" is all relative.
You hit everything pretty much dead on. If size was the only major factor then an Audi A8L or a BMW 745IL would then be equally comparable to the same size Bentley or RR being they have some similar features etc etc for a whopping $80K less....but I would hope no one here believes that these vehicles are in the same class.
Even if you use the TL vs A6, 5 series etc example, then a Buick Lacrosse, VW CC, etc etc must also be competitors.
The TL has been categorized as a Midsize car by the EPA ever since the 2G was released in 1999, Yet no one ever compared the last generations to a 5 series etc. Acura has obviously done a great job with the 4G in perceiving people here that its now a 5 series competitor because they made it bulkier, yet over the generations the interior and cargo dimentions havent really changed dramatically. IMHO, The TL is so close to being categorized below the Midsize category that all it would take is for them to make the trunk floor flat. (EPA sizing is Psg volume + Cargo volume).
The 5G will hopefully be a true mid size competitor. The 4G is a great sport sedan but isnt close to being a true MIDSIZE LUXURY Sedan......yet.
Personally, I thought the article touched on a lot of good things like features, quality, etc that truely show these cars to be in different classes.
07-21-2010, 07:08 PM
#63
Trolling Canuckistan
^^^
The Lacrosse is the only one on your list that I haven't heard being compared to the TL by a customer but you left off the ES and GS from Lexus, the G and M from Infiniti, the Maxima, the Accord, the Camry.........
My point is that it goes both ways, the TL gets cross shopped against more expensive and less expensive cars but it typically shopped against cars of a similar size. Taking size out of it, why not compare it with the STi and the Evo? They all have similar HP and are AWD.
You don't compare a 7 series to a Bentley Continental GT because of the completely different applications of the vehicles. The Bentley has a freaking 6 liter twin turbo w12 engine that produces 552 hp. That comparison is like figuring out what chevy is closest in size to the LP640 and comparing them or comparing a 30ft Cigarette boat to a 30ft tuna fishing boat.
The Lacrosse is the only one on your list that I haven't heard being compared to the TL by a customer but you left off the ES and GS from Lexus, the G and M from Infiniti, the Maxima, the Accord, the Camry.........
My point is that it goes both ways, the TL gets cross shopped against more expensive and less expensive cars but it typically shopped against cars of a similar size. Taking size out of it, why not compare it with the STi and the Evo? They all have similar HP and are AWD.
You don't compare a 7 series to a Bentley Continental GT because of the completely different applications of the vehicles. The Bentley has a freaking 6 liter twin turbo w12 engine that produces 552 hp. That comparison is like figuring out what chevy is closest in size to the LP640 and comparing them or comparing a 30ft Cigarette boat to a 30ft tuna fishing boat.
07-21-2010, 07:27 PM
#64
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IMO the designers at Acura hit another homerun with the TL SH-AWD in that it's even being shopped against cars like the BMW 5 series and the Audi S4...it's in a different pricing tier but yet delivers like performance and ammenities. For me and my house, I'll keep the 10-15K in my pocket and happily drive my TL SH-AWD!
07-21-2010, 07:56 PM
#65
Racer
IMO the designers at Acura hit another homerun with the TL SH-AWD in that it's even being shopped against cars like the BMW 5 series and the Audi S4...it's in a different pricing tier but yet delivers like performance and ammenities. For me and my house, I'll keep the 10-15K in my pocket and happily drive my TL SH-AWD!
If the TL SH-AWD is a home run, what about the Audis and BMWs that are, even in this recession, setting sales records? Grand slams?
07-21-2010, 08:01 PM
#66
Racer
I think its a perception most North Americans have where they believe more must be better, ie: 4 vs 6 Cyl.
How it compares to the vehicles these motors are in is what we should be looking at. A couple years ago there was a debate here between the A4 2.0T 6AT vs 4G SH-AWD. The performance numbers where basically the same with the 2.0T having better acceleration in some areas and better passing power. The only area it really lacked compared to the TL was in the obvious higher speed ranges at 110-120Mph+. So unless your at a track or driving 120+ in your neighborhood (which hopefully isnt my neighborhood) the 2.0T really is much nicer IMO when you look at the overall picture.
How it compares to the vehicles these motors are in is what we should be looking at. A couple years ago there was a debate here between the A4 2.0T 6AT vs 4G SH-AWD. The performance numbers where basically the same with the 2.0T having better acceleration in some areas and better passing power. The only area it really lacked compared to the TL was in the obvious higher speed ranges at 110-120Mph+. So unless your at a track or driving 120+ in your neighborhood (which hopefully isnt my neighborhood) the 2.0T really is much nicer IMO when you look at the overall picture.
And both fall down in the low-end torque game, which is where the Audi V6 excels, even over most other 6-cylinder engines.
Americans who prefer the Audi 6 (and I'm definitely in that category) probably like it for the same reason I do; you can drive peppy around town in stop-and-go traffic without having to rev high. It can feel and act like a luxury car rather than a race car in those conditions. The TL gets an amazing amount of performance out of the engine, but you don't want the puppy below 2K. The Audi NA six operates well at a nearly-silent 900... but can't match the Acura NA six for sheer go-kart zoom.
07-21-2010, 08:15 PM
#67
Pro
So far I like how this thread is going, no insults and name calling. Lots of great info guys!
My question is why they left the BMW 335ix from the mix as we would have a nice match of all the near lux sport sedan with AWD, a 6 cyl engine and a MT. Maybe because Audi and Acura have a similar architecture (heavy nose hidden by AWD)?
Anyway, I liked the article and I like the insights our posters have provided so far, good stuff!
Have a great evening,
-YetiTL
My question is why they left the BMW 335ix from the mix as we would have a nice match of all the near lux sport sedan with AWD, a 6 cyl engine and a MT. Maybe because Audi and Acura have a similar architecture (heavy nose hidden by AWD)?
Anyway, I liked the article and I like the insights our posters have provided so far, good stuff!
Have a great evening,
-YetiTL
07-21-2010, 08:17 PM
#68
Pro
Oh and cross-shopping a 5 series with a TL and a Subaru Legacy doesn't mean the 3 cars are in the same category. All 3 are good, depending of your criteria of choice...
This is IMHO, of course.
This is IMHO, of course.
07-21-2010, 09:06 PM
#69
Registered Member
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I think in terms of what it delivers as far as performance and value the TL AWD is a homerun to us enthusiasts.
To the rest of the buying public, I'm less than convinced. TL sales remain well down from its glory days while the competition picked up again.
To the rest of the buying public, I'm less than convinced. TL sales remain well down from its glory days while the competition picked up again.
07-21-2010, 11:38 PM
#70
2010 TL AWD 6MT: New King
So far I like how this thread is going, no insults and name calling. Lots of great info guys!
My question is why they left the BMW 335ix from the mix as we would have a nice match of all the near lux sport sedan with AWD, a 6 cyl engine and a MT. Maybe because Audi and Acura have a similar architecture (heavy nose hidden by AWD)?
Anyway, I liked the article and I like the insights our posters have provided so far, good stuff!
Have a great evening,
-YetiTL
My question is why they left the BMW 335ix from the mix as we would have a nice match of all the near lux sport sedan with AWD, a 6 cyl engine and a MT. Maybe because Audi and Acura have a similar architecture (heavy nose hidden by AWD)?
Anyway, I liked the article and I like the insights our posters have provided so far, good stuff!
Have a great evening,
-YetiTL
07-22-2010, 03:58 AM
#71
+1
You hit everything pretty much dead on. If size was the only major factor then an Audi A8L or a BMW 745IL would then be equally comparable to the same size Bentley or RR being they have some similar features etc etc for a whopping $80K less....but I would hope no one here believes that these vehicles are in the same class.
Even if you use the TL vs A6, 5 series etc example, then a Buick Lacrosse, VW CC, etc etc must also be competitors.
The TL has been categorized as a Midsize car by the EPA ever since the 2G was released in 1999, Yet no one ever compared the last generations to a 5 series etc. Acura has obviously done a great job with the 4G in perceiving people here that its now a 5 series competitor because they made it bulkier, yet over the generations the interior and cargo dimentions havent really changed dramatically. IMHO, The TL is so close to being categorized below the Midsize category that all it would take is for them to make the trunk floor flat. (EPA sizing is Psg volume + Cargo volume).
The 5G will hopefully be a true mid size competitor. The 4G is a great sport sedan but isnt close to being a true MIDSIZE LUXURY Sedan......yet.
Personally, I thought the article touched on a lot of good things like features, quality, etc that truely show these cars to be in different classes.
You hit everything pretty much dead on. If size was the only major factor then an Audi A8L or a BMW 745IL would then be equally comparable to the same size Bentley or RR being they have some similar features etc etc for a whopping $80K less....but I would hope no one here believes that these vehicles are in the same class.
Even if you use the TL vs A6, 5 series etc example, then a Buick Lacrosse, VW CC, etc etc must also be competitors.
The TL has been categorized as a Midsize car by the EPA ever since the 2G was released in 1999, Yet no one ever compared the last generations to a 5 series etc. Acura has obviously done a great job with the 4G in perceiving people here that its now a 5 series competitor because they made it bulkier, yet over the generations the interior and cargo dimentions havent really changed dramatically. IMHO, The TL is so close to being categorized below the Midsize category that all it would take is for them to make the trunk floor flat. (EPA sizing is Psg volume + Cargo volume).
The 5G will hopefully be a true mid size competitor. The 4G is a great sport sedan but isnt close to being a true MIDSIZE LUXURY Sedan......yet.
Personally, I thought the article touched on a lot of good things like features, quality, etc that truely show these cars to be in different classes.
We do have to remember that this is the first time the TL has gained a repsectable platform and can now fully compete (even exceed) in all performance categories against the benchmarks of the mid level sedan class.
It has always been a tweener but never gathered that type of recognition before. The added bulk and size, SH and therefore increased price contribute to that but another key component is the transition of the TSX which is pretty much in line with the last generation TL. It is actually Acura's entry level, with the TL in between it and the mid level RL. So add brand position to price and size and it is making a very strong case for itself being a mid level as it is.
I agree that the SH is not really a direct competitor to anything but it is a competitor for those shopping for a larger mid sized luxury brand sedan (just like a mid level) for under $50k, nontheless. That leaves many cross shopping it with 528's, front track 3.2L A6's, E350's, etc, etc.
It's just like Black Label suggested, it's a different story in real life than it is in magazine comparo's, especially since only base, with little to no additions, are what make up most of these mid level sales. At that point it's easy to see why they would be cross shopped, whether anyone thinks they are competitors or not. Just because no so called "official" publication is willing to step up to the plate doesn't mean others haven't or that consumers are not comparing these models is real life. Don't get me wrong, if someone is looking at a fully loaded $60k+ V6 version or one with a V8 then that may be another story but otherwise it's not an unrealistic comparison.
The TL is real close to getting the bump, it's nearly there as it is. Increase the price by $5k-$6k but still with a price under $50k and add more refinement and a few available features found on some of the other higher end Acura products but with TL performance plus further upgrades all around at MMC and there is no reason why it wouldn't be a true mid level. Unfortunately, that probably won't happen until next gen but it's not as far from it as most think, even now.
Last edited by winstrolvtec; 07-22-2010 at 04:10 AM.
07-22-2010, 06:36 AM
#72
Pro
A comparison sometime ago pitted the 335i and S4, not sure if it was by Motortrend, Car & Driver, or Automobile. But it stated why they used the 335i, and not the 335ix; they wanted the higher performing trim. And as I recall, one of the their reasons was the 3 series AWD did not improve performance (it actually hinders it due to its slower acceleration, and its AWD system was not behaving in a way that it improved handling). I'm sure you can guess the S4 won
07-22-2010, 06:43 AM
#73
Pro
The TL SH is actually right around the same price as the mid levels base models. There is no $80k discrepancy so no one here is using size alone. In any case the TL is closer to a mid level than the S4 or any other entry sedan is or ever will be IMO. Those cars are not growing anytime soon and can't add anything at MMC to boost that position where the TL can. At least we know the TL is transitioning in that direction and has always held a unique position, so for some that may already be considered a poor man's mid level or a cheap way out for what might in "other" ways be a better product anyway.
We do have to remember that this is the first time the TL has gained a repsectable platform and can now fully compete (even exceed) in all performance categories against the benchmarks of the mid level sedan class.
It has always been a tweener but never gathered that type of recognition before. The added bulk and size, SH and therefore increased price contribute to that but another key component is the transition of the TSX which is pretty much in line with the last generation TL. It is actually Acura's entry level, with the TL in between it and the mid level RL. So add brand position to price and size and it is making a very strong case for itself being a mid level as it is.
I agree that the SH is not really a direct competitor to anything but it is a competitor for those shopping for a larger mid sized luxury brand sedan (just like a mid level) for under $50k, nontheless. That leaves many cross shopping it with 528's, front track 3.2L A6's, E350's, etc, etc.
It's just like Black Label suggested, it's a different story in real life than it is in magazine comparo's, especially since only base, with little to no additions, are what make up most of these mid level sales. At that point it's easy to see why they would be cross shopped, whether anyone thinks they are competitors or not. Just because no so called "official" publication is willing to step up to the plate doesn't mean others haven't or that consumers are not comparing these models is real life. Don't get me wrong, if someone is looking at a fully loaded $60k+ V6 version or one with a V8 then that may be another story but otherwise it's not an unrealistic comparison.
The TL is real close to getting the bump, it's nearly there as it is. Increase the price by $5k-$6k but still with a price under $50k and add more refinement and a few available features found on some of the other higher end Acura products but with TL performance plus further upgrades all around at MMC and there is no reason why it wouldn't be a true mid level. Unfortunately, that probably won't happen until next gen but it's not as far from it as most think, even now.
We do have to remember that this is the first time the TL has gained a repsectable platform and can now fully compete (even exceed) in all performance categories against the benchmarks of the mid level sedan class.
It has always been a tweener but never gathered that type of recognition before. The added bulk and size, SH and therefore increased price contribute to that but another key component is the transition of the TSX which is pretty much in line with the last generation TL. It is actually Acura's entry level, with the TL in between it and the mid level RL. So add brand position to price and size and it is making a very strong case for itself being a mid level as it is.
I agree that the SH is not really a direct competitor to anything but it is a competitor for those shopping for a larger mid sized luxury brand sedan (just like a mid level) for under $50k, nontheless. That leaves many cross shopping it with 528's, front track 3.2L A6's, E350's, etc, etc.
It's just like Black Label suggested, it's a different story in real life than it is in magazine comparo's, especially since only base, with little to no additions, are what make up most of these mid level sales. At that point it's easy to see why they would be cross shopped, whether anyone thinks they are competitors or not. Just because no so called "official" publication is willing to step up to the plate doesn't mean others haven't or that consumers are not comparing these models is real life. Don't get me wrong, if someone is looking at a fully loaded $60k+ V6 version or one with a V8 then that may be another story but otherwise it's not an unrealistic comparison.
The TL is real close to getting the bump, it's nearly there as it is. Increase the price by $5k-$6k but still with a price under $50k and add more refinement and a few available features found on some of the other higher end Acura products but with TL performance plus further upgrades all around at MMC and there is no reason why it wouldn't be a true mid level. Unfortunately, that probably won't happen until next gen but it's not as far from it as most think, even now.
07-22-2010, 08:28 AM
#74
Racer
(who was responding to Winslovtec)...If they add all that stuff to the TL, the harder task for the marketing division of Acura/Honda will be to reverse tthe thinking that the TL will always be a near-lux car. Do you think the marketing guys can really push the way people see the TL as a full-blown mid-size luxury sport sedan?
Those are costing sales. I know first-hand of two TL purchases planned (one by a guy who is in his third Acura and considers himself, his words, "An Acura Man"... but now is thinking BMW 5-series) that have been switched due to the TL omissions. It's a nearly-great package, but like all packages, something has to be sacrificed - might be a big feature, might be little features, might be cost... Acura chose refinements and that will gain some sales for the value and lose some for the luxury. And will lose luxury perception at the same time.
(The other lost sale was after a friend asked my significant other how she likes my ride. She responded that it's a nice enough car but the head restraints give her a headache and the butt warmer doesn't do her back, so she prefers her 2000 Toyota Forerunner for comfort. I've mentioned those before, and the response here is generally that they're small potatos or the seat isn't adjusted right. Yeah, try telling your significant other that with 40 years of sitting-in-cars, she still can't do it right.
)
07-22-2010, 09:37 AM
#76
Safety Car
Look through the posts here and you will know... I've owned three Audis prior to the TL. In those 14 years or so, had I think three warranty issues, all dealt with well and quickly. My TL developed a problem within three months (rubber keeps sliding out from under the rear spoiler), so it's already at par for defects with my extensive Audi experience.
Car reliability is very definitely a luck-of-the-draw thing. I do believe the Acura will be, statistically, a far more reliable car... but the Audis also are probably three times more reliable than anything you could buy in 1980.
Car reliability is very definitely a luck-of-the-draw thing. I do believe the Acura will be, statistically, a far more reliable car... but the Audis also are probably three times more reliable than anything you could buy in 1980.
07-22-2010, 10:55 AM
#77
Techno....we may not agree, but I've got to give you credit, man. You're vehement love of all things Audi....almost to the point that some of your comparisons border on......ummmmm......interesting (the celcius feature immediately comes to mind).
I've talked to a lot of people who like certain brands of cars. None of them close to the point you are with Audis, though.
I've talked to a lot of people who like certain brands of cars. None of them close to the point you are with Audis, though.
07-22-2010, 01:40 PM
#79
Good to know, I was questioning whether the information was flawed or not since I know my seat warms the back but as it turns out the conversation was directed around the passenger seat where the TL does only have a butt warmer.
Last edited by winstrolvtec; 07-22-2010 at 01:48 PM.
