compewterbleu

I didn't buy my car simply because it was less $$...I bought it because I like Acura and and not a big fan of Audi, BMW, MB, Lexus, or Infiniti. Point blank.

To be superior means to be without flaw, so when the S4 is on the rack for it's numerous defects in quality I guess that's just the owner desiring to pay more $$ for unreliability, great argument

Perhaps the folks at Audi will one day take their heads out their ass in build a more reliable and quality car...wait perhaps they are hoping folks won't take their heads out of their asses and continue to $$$ on them. Makes sense to me..

VTEC Racer

Maybe the professionals see things differently from you, because most of them have chosen to compare the TL-SHAWD to the S4, NOT the A4. Ironically, the two cars seem to be equal in performance. In some comparisons the TL outperforms the S4 on the track and in other comparisons, the S4 outperforms the TL (a difference of .04 seconds) on the track. What this really means to me is that despite the S4's more powerful brakes, faster 0-60, less weight, and more sport oriented suspension, being able to beat the TL on a track by only .04 seconds and in other cases losing outright, it shows that the TL is one damn good performer.

The difference in performance between a TL and S4 is no different than the difference between an M3 and C63, for example. Just because one car outperforms the other SLIGHTLY, you would consider them uncomparable or not at the same level? With that analogy, it would seem that for two cars to be in the same class, they would need to have identical performance.

So you are using performance (which is so close that the slightest variable can lean in favor of one car or the other), and a "SLIGHT" upgrade in luxury as a basis to call the S4 the "better" car. But what about the huge advantage in reliabilty that the TL has over the S4? Or the greater interior volume, the quieter ride, the smoother shifting transmission, the lower price tag, etc... Doesn't that contribute to the TL being the "better" car?


Both cars have their advantages. The differences between the two cars are slight and not enought to claim that the two cars cannot be compared. Just because the TL is a regular mainstream model for Acura whereas the S4 is a highperformance variant of a mainstream model, that shouldn't give you the illusion that the TL can't compete. It's not Acura's fault that they made a mainstream car as good as a highperformance model such as the S4.

As for the FX50 vs GTS, have you ever seen anyone compare the two? That is a ridiculous comparison. The perfomance is not even close. That would be like comparing the TL-SHAWD vs the RS4. Try comparing the S to the FX50, which is done on a regular basis.

FYI, there is no 3.2 A4.

sddale

Sorry but the comment in bold makes no sense.

Yumcha

Superior does not mean perfect.

JM2010 SH-AWD

Agree with VTEC. An earlier poster put it very well. The performance of the S4 and TL-SHAWD (at least in MT form) are close enough that, unless you're tracking the cars (which is kind of a ridiculous proposition) it is not really meaningful. And even if you are tracking the cars (and I don't mean a drag strip), the difference may still not be meaningful since the mags' posted lap times for the two cars are very, very close. Yes, the S4 has more HP. It's also a bit heavier. But isn't the true test of a car's performance how quickly it can get around a road course? And here the TL-SHAWD is every bit the equal of the S4.

As far as "luxury" features, we've had this discussion before, and it's all subjective -- not a matter of fact as some would seem to suggest. Where do you start? Is the ELS system "inferior" to the Audi's sound system? Is the S4's leather a bit softer? Or do the cubbies have more felt in the S4? Or is the TL more luxurious because it has more room or a nicer electronics package? These are matters of opinion mostly.

I'm not knocking the S4 (well, except maybe on reliability). But to say - as a matter of fact - that the S4 is in a different league than the TL SH-AWD is just counterfactual. Some may prefer the TL, some may prefer the S4. Some may call it a draw. But the one thing it's not is a clear case of the S4's "superiority" (although for $15-20K more, perhaps one could argue it should be).

winstrolvtec

I know you think this is a 4G board and we are just biased but it's not as much the case as you might think. There is a disconnect here and IMO it is that you think Audi offers a 3.2L for the A4 and maybe you are comparing a FWD TL instead of an SH or 6MT or not considering the 2012 upgrades.

Maybe 3.2L is still available in Canada but I don't think so. The S4 just does not carry the same cache as it once did, to many people it is now Audi's A4 V6, although very fast, performance oriented, and commanding a higher premium now but it does not hold the same position as the old S4, it now competes with the 335's instead of the M3's. So many don't view it as a model above.

People didn't just get a TL for cost and reliability (again, I hope you are comparing an SH), nor just luxury and speed, which are the main attributes of an S4. Like you said, it's the sum of the whole package, not just luxury and performance.
So for many TL buyers, it was the size, performance, luxury, resale, reliability, practicality, low cost maintenance, value, and safety combo. And if the reliability can be considered perceptual than so can the S4's luxury. At least reliability can be statistical, where luxury is mostly subjective. The TL is extremely well rounded, scoring well in every major category, instead of only excelling in maybe two and being average or below in others.

I don't think being faster, using some more soft touch vinyls and plastics, and offering more high end features that you also have to pay for, makes it necessarily better, maybe just a slightly or marginally better performance luxury sedan but that's about it. Certaintly doesn't make it a better car or value.

The whole Mugen and Type R badging means nothing without the content. Rarley has anything type R ever been drastically superior to what we have had and Mugen has usually been nothing more but cosmetics. The branding or badging doesn't necessarily mean anything or decides what competes or not, just like a premium price tag doesn't always warrant a superior product.

JS + XES

iTrader: (1)

man why did i come into 4G TL forum.

ParaSurfer1979

Vtech??? Where do you see cordless phones on this site???

jspagna1

Sorry guys, but I did choose the TL because of its reliability(not cost) and all the other points mentioned above.
I never even considered an Audi because of the issues that relatives and freinds have had with them.
Also when you have a good freind who is a mechanic and specializes in Foreign cars and tells you to stay away from Audi's,Volvo's and Saabs(understandable). It's really a no brainer.

compewterbleu

Have you ever heard of a cat named Hitler?

gibjer

I didn't think the Advanced package was going to be available with the AWD?

gibjer

*edit, AND a manual, I see now

FYI Acura has updated their site to config the 2012's

TechnoCat

"All" the reviews are many. The TL has lost most of them, but that's not news here. But several former 4G TL SH-AWD owners moved to S4s. We did do back-to-back... we owned the TL when buying something else.

But so many forum posts here claim the TL is better! The cars really aren't that similar. The S4 is significantly quieter and more luxurious, and more composed, with gobs more torque and therefore fast quiet and luxurious speed. But again, it also costs 1/3 more. The TL is larger, cheaper (and feels it) and more reliable.
That's true enough for magazines. In real life, the S4's torque feels very different than the TL's buzzy high-revving engine. In my opinion, the TL SH-AWD is the better sportscar, but the S4 is the better living car, because even though the S4 is faster, the TL sounds and feels faster. By quite a bit. (But it's also harsher, which my babe didn't like.)

The TL SH-AWD is an amazing car for the money, but like all cars it has some trade-offs. The S4, costing so much more, has many fewer trade-offs. (Okay, reliability and the handling of the water pump fiasco is a huge one, but other than that... )

compewterbleu

great points.

winstrolvtec

Well I can say that the TL is a better option for me and on a more generalized basis, both have their own set of qualities that makes each great even though they may not be for everyone.

Can't disagree entirely and that makes sense, at least to some degree or degree of interpretation, like how it's faster, there is less road noise and the suspension is better dampened for smaller bumps so it's more composed also takes a bit more sting out of some bumps, and again more vinyl and softer plastics used in comparison to the TL.

So it sounds good to say those things should be refelcted in the cost differences but it's a little bit of a reach (not a big one) IMO because at the same time, the car is a smaller size rank, may be prone to more reliability issues and/or bigger ones, and has it's fair share of inconspicuous areas, small features, and touches that would make you question it's luxury standings nearly as much as a TL's.

But nontheless, I agree that you could build a case around the whole cost relation and the trade-offs argument but the part that still remains and the one I especially don't like about the S4 is it also costs as much as cars that are at the same time larger, more luxurious, more composed, and that are quieter, and at times have more features, with the only benefit being performance, with the more significant part of that being it's ability to go fast, while you give up the whole luxury aspect and size for the same money. Which makes me believe that is really what you are paying for.

So coming from cars like that or comparing to those types of vehicles instead, you can get an equal amount of benefit from a TL SH as an S4 just reflected differently, like size instead of acceleration, and maybe more in the form of reliability, for a fraction of the cost.

These are areas that I think both cars have similarly good quailities. The TL's extra space, larger seating, and lighter brake and steering feel but amazing bottomline capabilities (especially for it's size), gives me the impression that it is as relaxing a package as it is fun and capable. I believe the S4 offers the same type of quality just represented differently, much of which is described above.

Both cars do a better job of that than the 3 series and G IMO which seem to never give you a break. They are luxurious (maybe moreso depending on who you ask) but don't seem to embrace the luxury concept as well.

shappy

Here is an entertaining, if a bit long, video: http://youtu.be/e3wqAPwUt-E?hd=1

Evo vs S4 vs TL SH-AWD.

George Knighton

:-/

I don't like those kids.

Although they finally confessed that the TL 6-6 was the quickest on that stretch of road, a *good* set of drivers would've done even better.

I get the feeling that the SH-AWD's ultimate performance was a surprise...a surprise in the kind of way that causes you to wonder whether they really know how to drive vectoring AWD.

I hate to pretend like I'm any kind of good driver, because I know my limitations, but I suspect that there are a number of posters here who'd have done better. There are certainly any number of NASA Group 4 and Group 5 drivers who'd have done better, and they don't make money pretending to be able to review automobiles.

Ruby

I think the point was to show how these vehicles will do to an AVERAGE driver. Who cares what a pro racing driver can do? These are everyday car that regular people drive. I think it was a good REAL WORLD test which the Acura handily won.

shappy

It is also very telling that, since this was a '12 TL, it had all-season tires while the other two had summer tires. Imagine how much better the TL would have done with similar shoes.

VTEC Racer

Actually the TL in the video was a pre-2012 model.

shappy

Yup, missed that.

jiggaman

wow this thread is quite "enthusiastic" haha.

I've read quite a handful of car site threads comparing the S4 to other cars and this one i think takes the cake lol.

i was shocked to find on Bimmer sites those guys actually give the nod to the S4 compared to their 335i with Xdrive.

JM2010 SH-AWD

As a post script of sorts, take a look at the current issue of R&T, where they report on their long-term S4 test model after a year and about 21K miles. Failures: transmission replaced, thermostat replaced (wonder if related to the well-known water pump problem) and tilt steering column replaced after failing. They like the car (I would have been at DefCon 3 after this string of problems), but still advise in a bit of understatement, "[y]ou may want the extended warranty." Interesting take on a $59K car.