Wavehogger

What we have here is very interesting. If you look at the 0-60 & 1/4 miles times for the 3G TL & Type-S you're going to see magazine times averaging around, give or take a few tenths:

3G TL

5AT- 0-60-6.3, 1/4-14.8 @95mph
6MT- 0-60-5.9, 1/4-14.5 @96mph

3G Type-S

5AT- 0-60,5.8, 1/4-14.5@97mph
6MT- 0-60, 5.7, 1/4-14.3@99.9mph

So a regular 6MT TL and 5AT Type-S are about even, which makes sense having a closer ratio for the manual, and more HP for the Auto.

I was able to test a Type-S 5AT in the same place as I've been testing my SH-AWD. Traction was an issue with cold temps, but I warmed them up a bit and got some decent launches.

TL SH-AWD (with 17" base wheels for winter)
5AT- 0-60, 5.8, 1/4- 14.45@100.2 mph
60' 2.44 @28.2 mph
1000' 12.12@89.3 mph

TL SH-AWD (with 19" wheels)
5AT- 0-60, 6.0, 1/4- 14.69@97.8 mph
60' 2.57 @27.6 mph
1000' 12.38@88.5 mph

Type-S
5AT- 0-60, 6.0, 1/4- 14.59 @100.5 mph
60' 2.61 @27.6 mph
1000' 12.33@93.1 mph

The results pretty much line up with what I was guessing would happen.
The SH-AWD is a bit quicker than the 3G 5AT, but not as quick as the Type-S with the 19" wheels. With the 17" for the winter they are neck and neck in the 1/4 mile. The 18" would be pretty close but I'd still give the edge to the Type-S, and no matter how you slice it, the Type-S just gains mph's much faster as you approach and pass the 1/4 mile mark.

It had been a while since I drove a 3G TL and when I started driving the Type-S I hate to say this, but it felt really lose,gittery, and had a much harsher ride, and had horrible handling manners, even when you compare it to the 400lb heavier SH-AWD. Even with all that weight, it had better balance and control. For people who aren't buying the TL to be the fastest sedan on the road, they are just going to fall in love with the 4G when they drive it. Of course that is if they actually like the way it looks. But I'm guessing even if many don't, they're still going to buy it! Well, after the recession.

SSFTSX

how is wind noise and fuel economy @100mph for long drive. 2G TSX they were able to damp it considerably. from SF to San diego i was able to overtake just about anything. never slow down.

(Cj)

Hey UnderPressure ( )

Great performance review!

The upcoming 6MT TL SH-AWD, will slay the TL-S 6MT. Being around 100 lbs lighter than the auto TL SH-AWD (give or take) and having a totally new and improved transmission, it will be able to not only overtake the old TL-S, but most of the competitions manual trannied sport sedans.

I'm also excited to see what may be in store for the upcoming TSX SH-AWD.

dr_brains510

Those are good tests you did but I believe someone here did a 14.3 with his stock 5AT TLS. I think if the type-s you drove had better tires, it would have done a bit better. Looking at the 60' for the type-s you achieved were not as good as the awd. Obviously it's harder to launch a FWD than an AWD. I still think the 5AT TLS stock would edge out a AWD TL. Of course that's just my opinion. Good comparisons nevertheless.

Wavehogger

Thanks, That is what I was suggesting. It's basically an even run with the 17's on the AWD so as you increase to 18's and then 19's you basically start to give the Type-S more and more of an edge. But I'll take a tiny compromise for the amazing handling and speed you can hold in the corners with the SH-AWD any day!

Colin

Its a drivers race. Reaction time alone could change the outcome.

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

Nice! I guess you didn't have a chance to test the 6MT TL-S?

Wavehogger

to be continued..

vinnier6

iTrader: (1)

thats a tough one to compare handling with a front drive car vrs the super handling awd car...and yes, the type s is a harsh ride no doubt....i am waiting a few years before i get rid of my type s for a sh tl....

KeithL

True, I didn't think the Type-S was that much harder than the SH, I actually think they are close, just the SH is bigger so it feels different. I found my Type-S to be more firm, but the SH seems to be a tad more quicker in respnding in the suspecntion, so I think it feeds it back more into the cabin than it should, the SH is a more compliant ride, but still a tad jittery to me.

vinnier6

iTrader: (1)

i havent driven the sh yet, but i have spent about 4 days in an 09 tl, and the steering was way to light felt like it had exaggerated power steering....i didnt like that feel, i like the heavy feeling of my type s....the 09 car was really soft and sloppy compared to the type s...i am scared to drive the sh, i will probably like it too much...

winstrolvtec

Gains a bit more down low, looses a little top end, as expected. It's fair to say the sh-awd is just as capable as the 3g auto type s. Probably hasnt even had it's first oil change yet.

Question- what tires are on the 17's?

Wavehogger

Michelin Pilot HX MXM4 P245/50R17 M+S

BEAR-AvHistory

The first thing it has to slay is the 263lbs lighter base '09 TL which is already about 1 tenth quicker then the SH-AWD/AT.

The 6MT will most likely be 2 or 3 tenths quicker the the 5AT version but there is no way it will compete against cars with more horsepower that are a few hundred pounds lighter & who are already running 13.5/104 quarter miles.

(Cj)

The TL SH-AWD 6MT has a better transmission than most of it's competition. The TL SH-AWD 5AT biggest downfall compared to the competition is it's transmission. The 6MT should be more on par with it's competitors. Also it will have a better smoother tranny that most of the competition. So even if it's not the fastest it should at least be the most fun to drive.

BEAR-AvHistory

Two things:

One - How do you know this to be true? Honda has a bad rep with AT's & my 6MT along with a lot of others has already been in the shop to have gears replaced (3rd/rev) which were either poorly designed or manufactured.

The 6MT on my BMW with 66,000 miles on it shifts as well as the TL & has never been in the shop to get gears replaced or anything else.

Same hold true for the 5MT on my '98 pickup

Two - A trans swap will not improve the SA-AWD time by near a second or 4 miles per hour.

The SH-AWD's weak point for acceleration is not the gear box its the lack of power for its weight which shows by how fast the acceleration tanks near the end of the quarter.

Fact is the gearing is what is keeping it in the hunt until the speed builds & it runs out of gear multiplication

Additionally, The 4 wheel drive system itself sucks some of the horsepower out of the car compared to a pure RWD.

(Cj)

http://www.vtec.net/articles/view-ar...icle_id=789695

http://www.vtec.net/articles/view-ar...icle_id=791061

BEAR-AvHistory

What am I supposed to see from the articles on the Vtec acura site?

It says the gear box is better then the old one & it also says that the clutch now finally behaves like a clutch is supposed to.

What is interesting is they have stiffened the already stiff gear ratios to try to compensate for the additional weight & lack of power in the new car.

It does not say its any better then the competition, but it does say it will be in only 5% of the TL's compared to 25% of the BMW's. Not sure what the rate is for Audi, Mercedes or Infinity

It would seem you have a much greater chance at being a beta tester in the TL then the competition who have been running their more numerous 6MT for a longer period of time.

I think this quote from the vtec article says pretty much where Honda is trying to take this car.

"In spirit, the only difference between the 5AT and 6MT TL SH-AWD models is the transmissions.....the changes in this case were intended to keep the 6MT closer in attitude to the 5AT model."

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

I think CJ might have exaggerated a bit, but tradionally, 6MT TL's are quite a bit faster than 5AT TL's. Not a second faster in the 1/4 mile and not 4mph more, but the difference is more than 0.5s (14.2 of 6MT vs 14.8 of 5AT) and 3mph (96mph of 5AT vs 99mph of 6MT), still very significant considering how most cars in this segment these days have negligible performance difference between AT and MT.

I believe CJ was replying to this part of your post,

"my 6MT along with a lot of others has already been in the shop to have gears replaced (3rd/rev) which were either poorly designed or manufactured"

So I guess he wanted you to read this part of the article,

"While they were developing the new gearbox, they decided to do it right and eliminate the aggravating hitch that plagued the clutch takeup in the old 'box. The result is a gearbox and clutch that truly lives up to the very high standards that have been set by Honda."

If this new gearbox is better, then I won't be surprised the performance difference between the 6MT and 5AT will even be larger, since the old one was so poorly manufactured and designed as you said.

Also, if you look at Wave's numbers, you can see clearly that the 19" wheels are what slowing down the car. I mean, I'm sure you know there's some difference between at 97mph trap speed (with 19" wheels) vs a 100mph trap speed (with 17" wheels).