2009 Acura TL SH-AWD "Wrecking Ball" TV Commercial
01-19-2009, 08:36 PM
#43
The only "effeciency" considered in the article is reported fuel consumption.
IOW - Power, Weight, Capacity, Engine Size, Drag, etc are ignored wrt "effeciency". So, contrary to your claim, "effeciency", according to Forbes, is *only* about the "final result of fuel consumption".
IOW - Power, Weight, Capacity, Engine Size, Drag, etc are ignored wrt "effeciency". So, contrary to your claim, "effeciency", according to Forbes, is *only* about the "final result of fuel consumption".
There are plenty of other articles out there that discuss BMW etc and how their designs are becoming leaders in this area.
01-19-2009, 08:49 PM
#45
Acura is still working it's way up to become a true luxury brand like AUDI, BMW and Benz. If you put it into perspective, you are comparing an ENTRY LEVEL LUXURY CAR to cars that are in LUXURY SEDAN ranges and have price tags that reflect that. Has acura made mistakes, YES, have other manufactures made mistakes, YES, so why is it that acura is being penalized and not the others. Face the truth, for the price of a new 4G TL, you can't find anything as fast, reliable or as well equipped.
Acura is trying to work its way up into the Tier 1 level with BMW, Audi, MB, Lexus etc.
Unfortunately with the current set backs in the economy and all of the cancellations on future cars for the Acura line, i feel when this economy turns around they will be even further behind than now.
I think also its not really fair to compare the TL with other Tier 1 cars and this is probably why you are seeing more comparisons in automotive magazines with the TL compared to parent company models such as the Passat CC, Maxima, etc as these cars compare very well to the new TL for the money and provide similar performance and entry level luxury.
01-19-2009, 08:56 PM
#46
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Truth is, once this statement does not have to be attached to every defense of the Acura TL it will then be a tier 1 car.
BTW: the "for the price" thing cuts two ways. IIRC the Hyundai Genesis is bigger, faster, as well equipped & costs less then a TL, so for the price you 'cudda had 375HP V8 power, The most powerful Hyundai ever.
BTW: the "for the price" thing cuts two ways. IIRC the Hyundai Genesis is bigger, faster, as well equipped & costs less then a TL, so for the price you 'cudda had 375HP V8 power, The most powerful Hyundai ever.
01-19-2009, 09:03 PM
#47
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What stats? Where are the innovative ways in that link?
As others already mentioned, Acura has used carbon fiber for the driveshaft on the RL, and alot of AL on 4G TL body panels. BMW uses AL front structures bonded (fancy word for glued) to the center steel unibody. I can't say one manufacturer is trying harder than the other. And Acura was the first to build an entire AL chassis for a production car (NSX).
With the exception of the latest Nissan Maxima, the vast majority of new model redesigns are heavier than the previous model. This holds true for the latest Acura's, BMW's, MB's.
I have seen both cars the new TL (and I do not like the exterior styling) and new A4. IMHO, the new 4G TL's interior materials and design looks better than the latest Audi (although I like the Audi's exterior styling).
As others already mentioned, Acura has used carbon fiber for the driveshaft on the RL, and alot of AL on 4G TL body panels. BMW uses AL front structures bonded (fancy word for glued) to the center steel unibody. I can't say one manufacturer is trying harder than the other. And Acura was the first to build an entire AL chassis for a production car (NSX).
With the exception of the latest Nissan Maxima, the vast majority of new model redesigns are heavier than the previous model. This holds true for the latest Acura's, BMW's, MB's.
I have seen both cars the new TL (and I do not like the exterior styling) and new A4. IMHO, the new 4G TL's interior materials and design looks better than the latest Audi (although I like the Audi's exterior styling).
Yes, i would have to agree with you.
The only thing all those stats really show is that the competition has found innovative ways to lighten their cars while still providing more luxury than Acura and using smaller drivetrains that still outperform and provide better fuel consumption.
Efficiency goes much deeper than the final result of fuel consumption, such as the design of the vehicle for drag co. and innovative ways to lighten the vehicle etc etc.
Here is an interesting article from forbes that shows how efficient the competition is getting.
http://www.forbes.com/2008/11/12/veh..._1112cars.html
You'll notice the A4 and the TSX tied although the Audi had AWD and was a couple hundred pounds heavier than the TSX. If they had compared the A4 to its true competitor in the TL it surely wouldn't have been tied.
So design does go deeper than just visual appeal and as far as "Cj" having to measure the gaps between the two cars in reference to the interiors.......Well if you have ever sat in both cars you would realise you can visually seen the difference (thats how bad it can be).
The only thing all those stats really show is that the competition has found innovative ways to lighten their cars while still providing more luxury than Acura and using smaller drivetrains that still outperform and provide better fuel consumption.
Efficiency goes much deeper than the final result of fuel consumption, such as the design of the vehicle for drag co. and innovative ways to lighten the vehicle etc etc.
Here is an interesting article from forbes that shows how efficient the competition is getting.
http://www.forbes.com/2008/11/12/veh..._1112cars.html
You'll notice the A4 and the TSX tied although the Audi had AWD and was a couple hundred pounds heavier than the TSX. If they had compared the A4 to its true competitor in the TL it surely wouldn't have been tied.
So design does go deeper than just visual appeal and as far as "Cj" having to measure the gaps between the two cars in reference to the interiors.......Well if you have ever sat in both cars you would realise you can visually seen the difference (thats how bad it can be).
01-19-2009, 09:04 PM
#48
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01-19-2009, 09:08 PM
#49
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I only consider MB, BMW, and Lexus tier-1. Audi is still tier-2 with Infiniti, Acura, Volvo...
I do agree with you here.
Acura is trying to work its way up into the Tier 1 level with BMW, Audi, MB, Lexus etc.
Unfortunately with the current set backs in the economy and all of the cancellations on future cars for the Acura line, i feel when this economy turns around they will be even further behind than now.
I think also its not really fair to compare the TL with other Tier 1 cars and this is probably why you are seeing more comparisons in automotive magazines with the TL compared to parent company models such as the Passat CC, Maxima, etc as these cars compare very well to the new TL for the money and provide similar performance and entry level luxury.
Acura is trying to work its way up into the Tier 1 level with BMW, Audi, MB, Lexus etc.
Unfortunately with the current set backs in the economy and all of the cancellations on future cars for the Acura line, i feel when this economy turns around they will be even further behind than now.
I think also its not really fair to compare the TL with other Tier 1 cars and this is probably why you are seeing more comparisons in automotive magazines with the TL compared to parent company models such as the Passat CC, Maxima, etc as these cars compare very well to the new TL for the money and provide similar performance and entry level luxury.
01-19-2009, 10:01 PM
#50
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Touche
:tipscap:
Maybe, but Forbes "effeciency" is only based on MPG in class. You linked it, show me it says something different when determining "efficiency".
That's uncalled for. Bear-AvHistory is not only an Acura Owner and Driving Enthusiast, but a valuable and credible contributor here (can we say the same about you? -
). Age has nothing to do with it.Guess it kind of stings you that the Hyundai has better specs for a lower price. Maybe that's how some of the Beamer/Benz crowd feel about the TL.
01-20-2009, 06:32 AM
#51
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01-20-2009, 07:18 AM
#52
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http://www.vtec.net/news/news-item?news_item_id=808157
According to VTEC.net story quoting a Acura email, the tier-1 program is still active.
According to VTEC.net story quoting a Acura email, the tier-1 program is still active.
I do agree with you here.
Acura is trying to work its way up into the Tier 1 level with BMW, Audi, MB, Lexus etc.
Unfortunately with the current set backs in the economy and all of the cancellations on future cars for the Acura line, i feel when this economy turns around they will be even further behind than now.
I think also its not really fair to compare the TL with other Tier 1 cars and this is probably why you are seeing more comparisons in automotive magazines with the TL compared to parent company models such as the Passat CC, Maxima, etc as these cars compare very well to the new TL for the money and provide similar performance and entry level luxury.
Acura is trying to work its way up into the Tier 1 level with BMW, Audi, MB, Lexus etc.
Unfortunately with the current set backs in the economy and all of the cancellations on future cars for the Acura line, i feel when this economy turns around they will be even further behind than now.
I think also its not really fair to compare the TL with other Tier 1 cars and this is probably why you are seeing more comparisons in automotive magazines with the TL compared to parent company models such as the Passat CC, Maxima, etc as these cars compare very well to the new TL for the money and provide similar performance and entry level luxury.
Last edited by Legend2TL; 01-20-2009 at 07:22 AM.
01-20-2009, 08:48 AM
#53
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If the members don't mind going off topic for a bit, but why is audi considered tier 2 and not tier 1? Their lineup has mostly everything BMW and Benz have, they have a supercar, a large land tank (A8L), they have a W12 motor (one of the many signs of tier 1) and as well their technology is on par with their competition. Am I missing something?
01-20-2009, 09:12 AM
#54
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I think, in the eyes of the general public, Audi falls short on "prestige" or "prominence" compared to BMW/MB.
01-20-2009, 10:32 AM
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All this "tier" stuff seems to be something the auto industry has made up, as I haven't heard it outside of my visits to Audi/Acura/Lexus dealers... Never in the Porsche/Ferrari/Lamborghini dealers. It is kind of like "top tier" gas...whoop de fricken doo.
01-20-2009, 10:43 AM
#57
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The *real* luxury/ultra-luxury players don't need "tiers".
01-20-2009, 10:58 AM
#58
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"I think, in the eyes of the general public, Audi falls short on "prestige" or "prominence" compared to BMW/MB."
Or more importantly- Sales.
I know sales are no indicator of how good a car is, but it just shows that people don't see Audi anywhere near as prestigious as BMW, Lexus, or MB since they'd rather drop 70k on one of their products rather than an Audi.
As for the whole tier 1 thing... of course its made-up, but it only applies to "mainstream" manufacturers. I would call Porsche/Ferrari/Lamborghini mainstream.
Labels are not necessary for Bentley, Mayback, or Rolls because they don't need to compete, they have a much higher status.
Sure, BMWs are nice and all that, but anyone (up until recently) could walk into a dealer and lease a 328i (as base as you can get a car) for like 300 bucks a month.
So it really is more about image than about how "affordable" the car is or isn't.
Or more importantly- Sales.
I know sales are no indicator of how good a car is, but it just shows that people don't see Audi anywhere near as prestigious as BMW, Lexus, or MB since they'd rather drop 70k on one of their products rather than an Audi.
As for the whole tier 1 thing... of course its made-up, but it only applies to "mainstream" manufacturers. I would call Porsche/Ferrari/Lamborghini mainstream.
Labels are not necessary for Bentley, Mayback, or Rolls because they don't need to compete, they have a much higher status.
Sure, BMWs are nice and all that, but anyone (up until recently) could walk into a dealer and lease a 328i (as base as you can get a car) for like 300 bucks a month.
So it really is more about image than about how "affordable" the car is or isn't.
01-20-2009, 11:15 AM
#59
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01-20-2009, 11:30 AM
#60
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As for being retired, its great since I have all the time in the world to do all kinds of fun things.
01-20-2009, 11:38 AM
#61
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Great post. As a veteren creeping up on retirement, it is always great to stop and thank someone for a career of unselfish service to our great nation. Thanks! I hope my retirement is as fullfilling as yours is.
v/r Greg
01-20-2009, 12:12 PM
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+1. Sincere respect to our veterans having worked with several military bases in AZ as well as helping out the VA. Keep the posts coming... as the inexperienced youth around here could certainly benefit from the wisdom of maturity, present company included!
01-20-2009, 12:46 PM
#63
What stats? Where are the innovative ways in that link?
As others already mentioned, Acura has used carbon fiber for the driveshaft on the RL, and alot of AL on 4G TL body panels. BMW uses AL front structures bonded (fancy word for glued) to the center steel unibody. I can't say one manufacturer is trying harder than the other. And Acura was the first to build an entire AL chassis for a production car (NSX).
With the exception of the latest Nissan Maxima, the vast majority of new model redesigns are heavier than the previous model. This holds true for the latest Acura's, BMW's, MB's.
I have seen both cars the new TL (and I do not like the exterior styling) and new A4. IMHO, the new 4G TL's interior materials and design looks better than the latest Audi (although I like the Audi's exterior styling).
As others already mentioned, Acura has used carbon fiber for the driveshaft on the RL, and alot of AL on 4G TL body panels. BMW uses AL front structures bonded (fancy word for glued) to the center steel unibody. I can't say one manufacturer is trying harder than the other. And Acura was the first to build an entire AL chassis for a production car (NSX).
With the exception of the latest Nissan Maxima, the vast majority of new model redesigns are heavier than the previous model. This holds true for the latest Acura's, BMW's, MB's.
I have seen both cars the new TL (and I do not like the exterior styling) and new A4. IMHO, the new 4G TL's interior materials and design looks better than the latest Audi (although I like the Audi's exterior styling).
As i mentioned before they only touched on innovation very briefly such as the use of compact frames, Blutec etc.
The title of the article is "2009's most fuel efficient vehicles" and i posted it to show how other brands have become more efficient. It was based purely on fuel consumption and wasnt posted to show numerous amounts of innovative ways (it was briefly a sub-topic). This was the sentence i posted leading up to the link....
Here is an interesting article from forbes that shows how efficient the competition is getting.
I am not to sure how that mislead you and Bearcat94 but if it did i do apologize.
Here is a link though of one company using frame/body technology to help in many areas including fuel efficiency.
http://www.autospies.com/news/Audi-T...hnology-29969/
01-20-2009, 01:00 PM
#64
If the members don't mind going off topic for a bit, but why is audi considered tier 2 and not tier 1? Their lineup has mostly everything BMW and Benz have, they have a supercar, a large land tank (A8L), they have a W12 motor (one of the many signs of tier 1) and as well their technology is on par with their competition. Am I missing something?
Although i dont believe their is an official Tier system, I think that most of the general public and the automotive world easily see Audi as the equal competitor to MB, BMW, etc
http://autoheadlines.blogspot.com/20...ous-brand.html
I dont know if sales is an accurate way to determine where a vehicle stands in a tier system but if it does then Audi is definately on par with BMW and MB.
http://www.autoblog.com/2009/01/19/a...es-in-germany/
01-20-2009, 01:58 PM
#65
I believe that "tier 1" isn't something that is 'self proclaimed' It is a public mindset. How about an informal survey? Everyone reading this thread ask 1-2 non-car people who the top luxury brands are and report back. I'm guessing that they will say MB, BMW and Lexus.
01-20-2009, 02:09 PM
#66
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Its a state of mind not a quantifiable reality.
01-20-2009, 03:19 PM
#67
Your Survey idea is interesting as my friend who recently sold his RL was looking for a new car as he felt the RL he owned lacked in prestige, (he called it a glorified Honda) quality, luxury etc but he did like how it drove and the reliability was good.
The cars he looked at where the 7-series, A8, LS460 and the CLS550 as he felt those where the elite cars (except for the obvious RR, maybach etc). In the end he went for the Lexus mainly because he has a Lexus Suv and loves it and the LS 460 was about 80K while the others ranged between 95-105K....This is just one guy who knows really nothing about cars but as you can see he doesnt think Lexus is a glorified Toyota or Audi as a glorified VW and actually liked the A8 over the 7 series.
In the end Acura really needs to upgrade all of its line dramatically and develop a flagship to show off its luxury (once they actually upgrade it).......and then (this is very important) advertise and market the hell out of it like Lexus and Audi have done over the decades. Then hopefully the public will no longer perceives Acura as just an upgraded Honda.
01-20-2009, 03:40 PM
#68
Funny thing is in Germany even VW Pheatom beat BMW 7.
01-20-2009, 03:43 PM
#69
In the end Acura really needs to upgrade all of its line dramatically and develop a flagship to show off its luxury (once they actually upgrade it).......and then (this is very important) advertise and market the hell out of it like Lexus and Audi have done over the decades. Then hopefully the public will no longer perceives Acura as just an upgraded Honda.
01-20-2009, 03:45 PM
#70
01-20-2009, 04:31 PM
#71
Hehe. when 85% of Lexus sales are made of RX/ES/IS which are even lower priced models than similar equiped A4
Funny even A6 when you load it up. It costs as much as LS460.
Does it say anything about Tier1. You have to look up individuals model mix. Porshe is tier1 as each of its car cost more than other luxury brand.
Funny even A6 when you load it up. It costs as much as LS460.
Does it say anything about Tier1. You have to look up individuals model mix. Porshe is tier1 as each of its car cost more than other luxury brand.
01-20-2009, 04:32 PM
#72
It is a double edged sword isn't it? If they are to make such a move, they (dealers) won't be selling car for invoice minus dealer cash and holdback. There is a cost to running such an operation and you cannot meet it with the kind of deals I see people talking about here. The flip side, is that you cannot demand higher margins without new/better product. Quite a conundrum.
If the economy could have stayed strong for another 5 years i could see Acura becoming a brand equal to the other luxury brands (if Acura was very aggresive).
Now with the way things have gone and Acura abandoning alot of their projects i fear they are going to be that much further behind once the automotive industry comes back around.
01-20-2009, 09:24 PM
#75
Remember that that is only a rumor (from one site) that has been denied by Acura. The only confirmed cancellation is the V-10 program. I don't believe they've even specifically canceled the NSX replacement, only the V-10. What if they debut a V-8 car at a lower price point?
01-22-2009, 11:19 AM
#78
AZ Community Team
Remember that that is only a rumor (from one site) that has been denied by Acura. The only confirmed cancellation is the V-10 program. I don't believe they've even specifically canceled the NSX replacement, only the V-10. What if they debut a V-8 car at a lower price point?
http://www.vtec.net/news/news-item?news_item_id=808157
Another repost, it's kinda annoying when folks make statments like all tier-1 projects are cancelled like it was a official statement released by Honda corporate. Then again this email at VTEC.NET could also be bogus, but the Autocar reference in that link has no quotes or nothing about the source of the info.
01-22-2009, 11:26 AM
#79
AZ Community Team
1) tier-1 debate
2) cancellation of most/all future models
3) Acura is heading into the abyss
4) Acura's HP
Oh, the commercials are OK. Quite a improvement over the 3G TV commercials.
01-22-2009, 11:48 AM
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http://vtec.net/forums/one-message?m...&page_number=1
Ok, with that out of the way, let's move on.
I like the commercial.
Ok, with that out of the way, let's move on.
I like the commercial.