octl

My Car: '06 Acura TL

Experience:

-Rode the stock suspension for 500 street miles
-Installed TEIN Basic and rode for another 500 street miles
-Installed TEIN SS last night and have done just about 50 miles of testing in various street conditions since.
-Been riding lowered cars since the 80's.
-Most recently: had Eibach ProKit springs on E36 BMW M3, and Neuspeed Springs on VW GTI IV
-Know a little bit about suspension and settings (mountain bike and super bike racing)
-Cars I've owned in the past: all of them, it seems, lol.

Where I ride: SoCal/OC


OBJECTIVE:

--- Well when I got the TL one of the first things I wanted to do was lower it so that I could improve both the looks as well as the performance. They were of equal importance to me.

--- I did not want to go with just lowering springs because I knew how it was from my cars before, and it would be far to bumpy for my needs (I'm not young anymore and my kids are always riding in the car, everyday). Bottom line, while I could tolerate the typical bumpy ride from a lowered car, I did not want a bumpy ride for my passengers. So what was I to do?

--- The reviews from the net are confusing, since suspension is VERY subjective and really depends on each individual. I figured my best alternatives were to choose from either the TEIN Basic or TEIN SS, because I have heard many positive things about TEIN for its quality, and also, very important was the price as well.

TEIN Basic:

The TEIN Basics were the first coilover set I had ever tried. Everything I had before was just springs. I found the ride EXCELLENT in comparison to any lowered car I have had in the past. The handling of the car was transformed, and the TL was on RAILS in comparison to stock.

I could not believe I could have my car lowered this much and still have a relatively smooth ride, that is hardly noticable in MOST road conditions out here in SoCal.

The Basics take small bumps very well, actually not very well, but excellent. You can drive through most speed bumps even and hardly tell the difference from stock - it's that good.

My conclusion is that being a person that is accustomed to lowered cars, I found the Basics a very good buy, and worth the extra money (versus just going with Lowering Springs) since I am confident the shocks will hold-up well, they are matching, and also the added bonus of being able to adjust height.

My problem with the Basics:

It's simple, I frequently have passengers, everyday. And my passengers are my kids. The Basics are stiff enough so that when there are medium to large size road surface changes, particularly a SERIES of surface changes one-after-another, you will DEFINITELY feel the stiffness.

While I don't particularly mind this as I am accustomed to it, I don't want my passengers to be bouncing there in the back seat whenever we do ocassionally run into these "unfavorable" conditions (note that the rear passengers are sitting right on top of the rear wheel, so they will feel it more than the driver). Also I am not young anymore, and I would definitely appreciate a smoother ride - but I still want my car lowered!

And so, I made the decision to spend a few hundred bucks nessary to switch to the SS in the attempt (or hopes) to have a range of damping adjustment to smoothen-out the ride, something not possibile on the Basics.

TEIN SS:

My TEIN SS was installed last night, and I have since put about 50 miles and tested on various conditions I am very familiar with. When I was on the Basics, I made sure to take note of how they were reacting to certain conditions.

First: What setting should I start with on the SS? Well, I "guessed" or "assumed" that the Basics were set right around the middle of the 16-click range of the SS.

Since I am familiar with suspension or "click" adjustments due to my backgroud in downhill Mountain Bike racing, as well as SuperBike racing, I guessed that what I would start with on the SS to achieve my goal was the following settings:

If 0 is STIFFEST and 16 clicks is SOFTEST:

I set it to 11 FRONT (5 clicks away from SOFTEST)

and 13 REAR (3 clicks away from SOFTEST)

I noticed the change in my ride in less than 1 minute, even just pulling away from Mr. Heeltoe's driveway. From that point I had a good feeling we got it right, and just what I wanted... but still I had to test it in my "areas."

I took the car out and tested it last night, and got up early this morning to beat the traffic as well.

The difference, to me, is night and day, and THIS is what I wanted out of my lowered car. It is perfect, and takes to the bumps, what can I say, just perfect, for MY needs. The car is much smoother now, ever closer to stock... but not quite!

Like the porridge and the 3 bears, the SS at the settings above is "just right" for me, and my precious kids in the back.

The handling has suffered a bit since it is softer and rolls a bit more on the curves compared to the Basics, however, still MUCH better and tighter than stock. I believe I can or "may" tighten it up for the curves by installing a sway bar, so I can still enjoy my "fun time" when I am driving alone.

Bottom line:

TEIN Basics are excellent and highly recommended if you are on a budget, accustomed to a lowered car and do not have frequent passengers in the BACK of the car. It's really very good that way.

TEIN SS is worth the extra money if you are PICKY about suspension (like me) and can really notice suspension changes, have frequent rear-seat passengers, or if you really want a nice range of adjustability for various needs (street, track or what not).

Hope this helps, and thought I'd share some info since Acurazine has been a great source of info for me too.

Last note: Mr. Heeltoe is the man - and I highly recommend him for no less than excellent price and beyond-excellent service.

CL Platano

Good comparison I wouldnt change my Tein SS for nothing worth the money eventhough the ball and chain doesnt agree

drdamian

excellent write up.... i also keep my setting of 11 in the front and 13 in the rear, but i have an EDFC which i feel is a must if you have the SS's...

datzdaboi

very nice write up

MrHeeltoe

iTrader: (1)

Thanks Fernando! It really was a pleasure dealing with you.

I hope to see you again soon for some more upgrades.

Oh, yeah, I am bookmarking this post so I can link it whenever I get the question about the difference between these two awesome systems.

Marcus

desiracing

How much is the car lowered?

BTW, excellent review.

mkim12180

I too want to lower my tl but was worried about the harshness of lowering a car, so you say that the ride is like stock ex. no rattling no bottoming out, I too want a sportier ride than my apec setup.

royco

Marcus,

You're right that this is a great source of info on the Teins. Anyway it sold me so as we discussed, I want you to send me a set of Tein SS for an 06 TL. The name is Roy Chong, call me at 201-679-4362 (c) for the rest of the billing information. Talk to you soon.

octl

Thanks for the kind responses, glad to help. Here are some additional notes to answer the questions:

On the basics, the car was dropped pretty low:

~1.9" Front
~1.6" Rear

Wheels were original, however, somewher during the Basics, I switched to:

245/40/18 --- the diameter of this set-up is very close to the stock one, so I barely felt a change in the ride, although I did like the added width and traction.
I think that maintaing the same diameter as stock using 18" wheels with 40 profile is important to keeping the ride smooth (reason why I didn't go with 19" wheels, which would have required a 35 maximum profile).

Note that the car was set pretty low on the Basics. I have not experienced any rubbing whatsover, even with full load of passengers and cargo in the trunk, even over rough surfaces. --- I cannot say the same about the SS yet, as I only have had about 50miles on it, but so far no rubbing on rough surfaces (no passengers though).

Currently with the SS, the car is dropped not as deep as I had it on the Basics to give room for the softer setting:

~1.6" Front
~1.25" Rear

... the top of the fender is just slightly above the top of each tire - call it a "tight" one finger.

I will post-up pics tonight.

chill_dog

That is a very well written review.

ussi

iTrader: (1)

^^pix??

whatjones911

This is a wonderful write up! Wish there was something like this when i was purchasing. I love my Tein SS but wish there was more adjustability for softness. I guess because i drive in the streets of San Francisco, so i can feel the stiffness alot more

octl

If you already have it at the softest settings, there is still a chance (as I understand it) to swap the springs only to softer set - I was considering this possibility just in case I didn't find the SS soft enough. You will probably have to raise the height though - can't defy the laws of physics.

whatjones911

Yea i know. I'm still deciding if i should spend the money to get softer springs.

desiracing

If your car is lowered, you can try raising it a bit. It made a huge difference for me. By raising the car you are reducing the compression on the spring, which means a lower spring rate. And springs with low spring rates are softer, whereas springs with high spring rates are stiffer.

Ka0tik

do you have a camber kit?

260 HP

iTrader: (3)

You're incorrect that raising the car reduces the spring rates. The spring rates don't change by raising or lowering the car. What changes is the suspension travel.

Lowering the spring seats on your Tein coilovers decreases suspension travel. Decreased suspension travel makes the ride harsher. Vice versa.

octl

Here it was when I took it home:



And here it is with the TEIN Basics (no shots with the TEIN SS yet, but it looks the same, lol). These are just driveway pics, the driveway is elevated so it will look like the front is up higher than it actually is when flat. I'll take some better pics when I get some time.

MrHeeltoe

iTrader: (1)

Ok, the ride will only imporve by raising if the car is slammed already, bottoming out on the bump stops. Raising the car will allow it to operate to full compression without bottoming out.

If the car is medium height already, raising will only make the ride worse because you are preloading the springs taking away some of their squishiness.

You don't raise or lower rates by raising or lowering the car. Spring do all their springing in a defined range. If they are preloaded, they are on the stiff end of the range and cannot work through their full range. If the car is too low you are causing them to again not work within the range because the car bottoms out before they reach full compression. Either way, the ride gets messed up.

So, you say a few true things in your post, but you left out a lot of details and I think you over-simplified too much.

You guys know how springs work right? With a given force, they compress. The spring rate is defined as the amount of force it takes to compress the spring a given length. To compress the spring more, more force is needed. The springs on a car are subjected to a wide range of forces. The weight of the car puts a load that sets the car's height. Over bumps the force of the wheels going over the bump increase the force on the spring, which is why the wheels bump up into the fender more. Same thing happens to the outside springs in a turn, or the front ones under braking. And you can see how the vice-versa is true for the inside springs under cornering, how they drop down with less force applied.

Anyway, the point is, for a given shock height, given spring rate, and given spring length, the car will sit at a resulting height. By spinning coilovers up, you are pre-loading the springs...you are pre-applying force to them. When you put the car on the ground, the weight of the car is less effective at compressing the spring because they are already compressed a little. So with the same shocks and a preloaded spring, the car sits higher. You can see what happens when the spring is tried to compress more over bumps then. It reaches a point where it will no longer compress (because of the spring rate) and you get a rougher ride.

I am going to stop rambling and go to bed. Chew on it.

Marcus

desiracing

Marcus (and 260HP), thanks for the clarification. The explanation you gave is very useful and I now understand springs rates. So, if its all about suspension travel then what is the optimal drop. In other words, based on the tein dampening settings mentioned earlier, what is the best height for near stock feel?

Thanks again guys.

MrHeeltoe

iTrader: (1)

With Tein, the average drop, as well as the adjustment range, are posted right on their site. Pretty much all the TLs and TSXs are going to see 2" down in the front and 1.6 in the back. Believe it or not, this will make the car sit right where most of us want it. You'll have around 1 finger gap all around, maybe a skinny finger. And the ride is supurb. I installed some SS/EDFC on another member's car on Tuesday and set that car at max height, which is about 2 fat fingers all around, and I felt the ride was a LITTLE choppy. Customer really loved it. The ride was still overall rather good, and with the springs preloaded the directness and response were CRAZY. The car felt like it was on rails. Remember, the suspension works best when it is loaded, and by preloading the springs you are basically driving around with the car loaded all the time!

Ideally, I would install Teins and keep them at the Tein recommended height, printed in the instructions, also available on their site. I would go 1/2" up or down from there and you'll still have yourself a great ride, great handling, etc.

I hesitate to compare the ride to stock at all, since you are not only changing the springs but also the dampers. There's no way you are going to get a stock ride unless you use stock parts, so just toss that out the window right now. For what me and Fernando are saying is, for the height you get on these coilovers, the ride is supurb. It is soft where you want it to be, and firm where you want it to be.

I tend to feel the socal freeways are the best test of a suspension's compliance. I notice ride start to degrade at about 35-45 mph, where the expansion joints in the concrete toss the car around more and make a loud thumping sound. Fernando felt that at speed, 80 mph or so, the suspension was too rough. At that speed, the car hits the joints and botts dots and those thumps get channeled into the car pretty directly. It does not bother me so much, or him really, but it is an intrution into the car when you are trying to cruise with family or friends. And mind you, on our crappy freeways a STOCK car is hard enough to live with.

Marcus

realfresh

octl, what kinda wheels are those?

mkim12180

looks like MOMO's to me but I could be wrong.

octl

Those are MOMO GTR's, I installed them not even 2 weeks ago. I like them very much and am getting compliments all the time, but I am thinking about selling them to go with 19" wheels.

pohljm

What size are they? I may be interested if you choose to go bigger.

octl

They are size 18 with TOYO Proxes 4 Tires 245/40/18, still smells new, barely 200 miles on the whole set. I got warranty on the tires too.

I am willing to take a loss on it, if I find someone that can give me $1600 for the set, I think I will go for it.

royco

Based on the write-up by OCTL, I went ahead and ordered a set of SS from Marcus. Marcus was very professional and delivered them as expected. I had them installed, aligned and corner weighed at EuroTire in Faifield NJ (GREAT tire shop) and (eventually) set up exactly as OCTL did. Now I can understand why there has been so much communication about the amount of adjustment "clicks". We found out that from full stiff (clockwise) to full counter-clockwise, you can get more than 20 clicks!! I'm sure that this is what's confusing a lot of people anbyway, the directions are very exact, "set them to full stiff (clockwise) and then adjust".

Anyway, I'm extremenly happy with the way the car looks and drives even though for the East Coast roads, I may want to soften them another click.

Thanks for the great write-up OCTL (as well as Marcus and EuroTire), it has taken ALL the guess work out of this mod and I can highly recommend it to anyone wanting to do this. I'll be posting before and after pictures as soon as I can stop driving the car!

LKLD

I wanted to say thank you to all who contributed to this thread. My TL is stock....now, but am considering wheels ( 19 or 20's, not sure yet ) and maybe coilovers. I've never " lowered" a car of mine and so don't know what effect(s) it would have on ride. This thread has helped me better understand the process and effects.....thanks!

MichaelBenz

iTrader: (2)

Great write up and comparison....thats for the info and your impressions. Excellent job!!

royco

OK, It has stopped raining here and I was able to clean the car and take some pics. I would've liked to lower the car some more, maybe another 1/2" but with the East Coast snows, that wouldn't be practical. I'm planning on checking the ride height after the suspension has more time to settle before making any decisions on changing the ride height or stiffness any more.

Original:
http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l1...red/Orig78.jpg

Lowered:
http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l1...ered/Low38.jpg
http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l1...ered/Low39.jpg
http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l1...ered/Low40.jpg
http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l1...ered/Low41.jpg

Whadda ya think?

royco

OK, I didn't want tohe prev post to look like that so I'm trying again to insert the pics properly:

Original:


Lowered:







Ok, that's better.

MrHeeltoe

iTrader: (1)

NICE! I like that blue!

lifetimeofwar

Hey royco, how much did you drop it in the front and rear?

btw looks nice.

Excelerate

iTrader: (1)

Looks good. BTW good review from the original poster.

csmeance

now get rid of the a-spec badge

royco

Jeez, I don't even know. We put it where it would look good without going too far. The front fender well is 25" to ground and the rear is 26". I'll have to measure up a stock car to know how much lower it is.

royco

Thanks, we really like it too.

royco

Thanks and let me know when you get some drilled front rotors for the 6MT. I'd really love to get those.

MrHeeltoe

iTrader: (1)

Racingbrake should have some slotted UP rotors available for the MT TL....interested?

royco

I must have been on a incline when I measured yesterday because when I did it again today I got 25 1/2" front and 25" rear.