Suspension Options.
11-21-2013, 07:22 PM
#1
Advanced
Thread Starter
Suspension Options.
I have a 04 6spd w/ 90k on it. Everything is 100% stock. I'm looking to change out the OEM setup. It is my daily driver and I don't need any high-end setup. I really won't get the use out of them. Mostly city driving.
Here is what I'm really looking for (probably doesn't exist, but worth a shot)
-stiffer ride.
-less body roll in corners (RSB worth it on a 6spd?)
-flat through the corners (RSB?)
-close to OEM height. I really don't want a drop. It's a daily but I just want a stiffer ride.
-tighter steering.
Again, I'm wanting my cake. I'm sure it's not realistic. Also I don't want the Type-S setup. Not willing to pay coil over prices for OEM.
Thanks.
Here is what I'm really looking for (probably doesn't exist, but worth a shot)
-stiffer ride.
-less body roll in corners (RSB worth it on a 6spd?)
-flat through the corners (RSB?)
-close to OEM height. I really don't want a drop. It's a daily but I just want a stiffer ride.
-tighter steering.
Again, I'm wanting my cake. I'm sure it's not realistic. Also I don't want the Type-S setup. Not willing to pay coil over prices for OEM.
Thanks.
11-21-2013, 07:58 PM
#4
Advanced
Thread Starter
I just I'm being unrealistic. I had a s2k w/ kw v3s.
11-21-2013, 09:04 PM
#5
2014 Jeep SRT
Get a set of H&R Sport springs. Mild drop and a highly recommended ride. To sweeten the deal, pair those springs with a set of Koni Yellows so you have some level of damping adjustment. 
11-21-2013, 10:03 PM
#6
All of the characteristics you mentioned you will get with A-SPEC suspension, and yes it is stiff... you don't want TOO stiff for city driving because it can get uncomfortable at times so the A-SPEC will be plenty stiff for you. Remember you drive a luxury car so you don't necessarily want a race car feeling when you're driving around the city doing 30mph, pretty pointless.
11-21-2013, 10:06 PM
#7
He stated he doesn't want to pay coil over prices (Koni yellows are high end/expensive shocks so that setup would be well over $700)
Trending Topics
11-21-2013, 10:21 PM
#8
Im not trying to sell the aspec here, as its nothing outstanding and theres so many options out there. But it has all the characteristics of a performance oriented suspension setup, while only dropping the car about 1". its plenty stiff IMO, it will be much stiffer then your stock 6mt base setup. Greatly reduced body roll. the car will not have that floaty feeling at highway speeds anymore. best of all its $600 shipped from Bruce. plus an afternoon of your time. Pair it up with a type S FSB and progress RSB and you'll be a happy camper. I have that exact setup on my base 08 and the car is a blast to drive.
11-21-2013, 10:57 PM
#9
Team Owner
I wanted the same thing when I first started changing the suspension. My conclusion was there is no stock height stiffer spring out there. Aspec comes close and it's a great balance between stiffness and comfort for a daily driver. Even though I did not want to lower the car, a 3/4" drop make it look so much better, even newer. Even my friends noticed the car looked better but didn't know I had barely lowered it.
I look at several factors when pulling a combo together:
Tires. The single biggest improvement you can make in handling, braking, and acceleration is the tires. Tires can improve performance in every area more than every suspension mod combined. The rubber compound is more important than width. This is why I shake my head when I see people with thousands of dollars in suspension and they start a thread asking about some $80 tire. Nitto NT05, Dunlop Star Spec, Hankook RS3 are easily the top 3 for absolute maximum traction in dry and wet conditions. All have advantages and disadvantages over each other but for all out dry traction the RS3 should come out on top and it's pretty cheap. Michelin has a great ultra high performance summer tire but it's very expensive and generally accepted as just a hair below these three. Your climate and usage will dictate if these tires are acceptable or not. None will live a long life but the traction is so addicting that you will probably never be able to go back to a normal summer tire again. You will also never find so little traction as if you try one of these tires in the snow or extreme cold. Freezing temps are fine but I wouldn't run them if it regularly gets below freezing.
Handling balance. Does the rear end slide out first or does the front end push and the car goes wide in a corner.
Comfort. It's a street car, can't get too carried away. Instead of doing really stiff springs ideally, I went with a reasonable spring and added larger swaybars to help make up the difference.
Damping. Unless you get shocks that are custom valved to your car's weight and springs (swaybars count as a spring sort of) you need adjustable shocks to get the most out of it and to "adjust" the entry and exit attitude. More damping is definitely not always better. Konis are the best I've ever used at controlling the suspension and body but doing so without harshness. I start fine tuning the shocks after the springs and swaybars are installed and the swaybars set to get the handling balance close to the way I like it. The main point is you want to damp excess movements but not restrict movement.
Traction vs stiffness. If you plan on running a more aggressive tire you will want a stiffer, better damped suspension. You're going to have more body roll with more traction and an aggressive tire will likely have sharper turn-in and all around more responsive so you need a suspension that can cover it without getting upset.
Suspension travel. It's is so incredibly important to keep full suspension stroke or at least very close to it and 99% of the people doing suspension mods don't even think about it. Our cars already sit close to the bump stops from the factory. The last thing you want is for the suspension to hit the end of it's travel. It can hurt the car, it kills ride comfort, it destroys handling balance. This is where *some* coilovers have an advantage over just springs and shocks. Some allow you to lower the car while retaining full suspension stroke. I found a way around this with the Koni shocks. Normally if you lower the spring perch to make the car sit lower you lose that much stroke. By knocking the mounting tab off and sliding the shock farther down into it's hole while keeping the spring perch on the stock setting gives full stroke even at a lower ride height. Originally I added Konis in the lower of the two height settings and liked them. As I began tracking the car and really paying attention I thought I was hitting the bumpstops especially in hard corners and under braking if there were any bumps involved. I looked at the suspension and figured out if I could get the shock to slide farther into the clamp it would lower the car without changing suspension travel. So I did it, I slide it farther in, switched the perch back to stock height, giving me about the same ride height as before and the difference was night and day. I didn't realize how much I was hitting the bump stops in normal driving even. The car was so much more comfortable in normal driving and at the limit it was more predictable and this is without changing the ride height, stiffness, or damping.
Swaybars. They don't hurt ride quality as much as an equivalent spring required to reduce body roll the same amount but they link the sides together..... sort of, which is not always a good thing. They are a torsional spring and are very effective at dialing in the handling balance you want. They work by linking the opposite sides together and then resisting by twisting when one side tries to sit higher or lower than the other side such as when cornering. I went with the H&R 28mm adjustable solid front bar and Progress adjustable 24mm rear bar. I have many reasons for these choices but I'll get into that tomorrow. There's a lot more to say about swaybars, both good and bad.
Remember that tires increase traction and suspension will enhance dynamics. If you take two TLs, one with a stiffer suspension, one stock, and both on the same tires and put them on a skidpad, the stiffer one will disappoint and the stock one will impress. Their steady state cornering speeds will be pretty close. However, one will feel drastically different during transitions and will stay more composed and more fun, less sloppy (if you set it up right). I'm not saying suspension has no influence on traction but in the TL's case it has little influence.
Since the TL has good suspension geometry, body roll is not the evil it is on some cars. It's not necessary to completely eliminate it and destroy the ride quality to have a very good handling TL.
The 255/40 size is a good choice. I've run this size on stock rims ever since I replaced the OEM tires. No abnormal tire wear or any of the other stuff people bring up and that's with 80k on this size of tire. I think they make the car look better and more aggressive. You get better rim protection, and most importantly you get better traction.
My combo is Aspec front springs and custom rear springs. Koni shocks. Progress 24mm RSB, H&R 28mm FSB. With them being adjustable and in the stiff setting, they're effectively a 25/29mm combo. Nitto NT05 tires soon to be RS3 tires. It's really simple but it took me a long time of swapping parts and tuning to get the car to where it is now. It has that insanely quick response to steering inputs that always surprises people because it rides pretty nice. I've been in cars that rode like crap that did not handle anywhere nearly as good as this car. Instead of concentrating on going super stiff and eliminating any hint of body roll, I focused on "stiff enough" and got the handling balance really dialed in using the swaybars and shocks along with the custom rear springs. I've found that you can go really stiff in the rear and it's hardly noticeable to the driver. Many aftermarket springs increase front stiffness a disproportionate amount compared to the rear, giving it more understeer and hurting handling.
I wanted to get into more detail but I've got to get some sleep. I'll get into the details tomorrow. I really think you would be happy with Aspec, Koni shocks, and the Progress 24mm RSB set to soft. This should give good handling out of the box and you can adjust from there. Beware the 24mm RSB on stiff will make the car feel like it handles better but it will make it more tail happy at the limit. Many people say the H&R springs are similar to the Aspec and a lot cheaper.
I look at several factors when pulling a combo together:
Tires. The single biggest improvement you can make in handling, braking, and acceleration is the tires. Tires can improve performance in every area more than every suspension mod combined. The rubber compound is more important than width. This is why I shake my head when I see people with thousands of dollars in suspension and they start a thread asking about some $80 tire. Nitto NT05, Dunlop Star Spec, Hankook RS3 are easily the top 3 for absolute maximum traction in dry and wet conditions. All have advantages and disadvantages over each other but for all out dry traction the RS3 should come out on top and it's pretty cheap. Michelin has a great ultra high performance summer tire but it's very expensive and generally accepted as just a hair below these three. Your climate and usage will dictate if these tires are acceptable or not. None will live a long life but the traction is so addicting that you will probably never be able to go back to a normal summer tire again. You will also never find so little traction as if you try one of these tires in the snow or extreme cold. Freezing temps are fine but I wouldn't run them if it regularly gets below freezing.
Handling balance. Does the rear end slide out first or does the front end push and the car goes wide in a corner.
Comfort. It's a street car, can't get too carried away. Instead of doing really stiff springs ideally, I went with a reasonable spring and added larger swaybars to help make up the difference.
Damping. Unless you get shocks that are custom valved to your car's weight and springs (swaybars count as a spring sort of) you need adjustable shocks to get the most out of it and to "adjust" the entry and exit attitude. More damping is definitely not always better. Konis are the best I've ever used at controlling the suspension and body but doing so without harshness. I start fine tuning the shocks after the springs and swaybars are installed and the swaybars set to get the handling balance close to the way I like it. The main point is you want to damp excess movements but not restrict movement.
Traction vs stiffness. If you plan on running a more aggressive tire you will want a stiffer, better damped suspension. You're going to have more body roll with more traction and an aggressive tire will likely have sharper turn-in and all around more responsive so you need a suspension that can cover it without getting upset.
Suspension travel. It's is so incredibly important to keep full suspension stroke or at least very close to it and 99% of the people doing suspension mods don't even think about it. Our cars already sit close to the bump stops from the factory. The last thing you want is for the suspension to hit the end of it's travel. It can hurt the car, it kills ride comfort, it destroys handling balance. This is where *some* coilovers have an advantage over just springs and shocks. Some allow you to lower the car while retaining full suspension stroke. I found a way around this with the Koni shocks. Normally if you lower the spring perch to make the car sit lower you lose that much stroke. By knocking the mounting tab off and sliding the shock farther down into it's hole while keeping the spring perch on the stock setting gives full stroke even at a lower ride height. Originally I added Konis in the lower of the two height settings and liked them. As I began tracking the car and really paying attention I thought I was hitting the bumpstops especially in hard corners and under braking if there were any bumps involved. I looked at the suspension and figured out if I could get the shock to slide farther into the clamp it would lower the car without changing suspension travel. So I did it, I slide it farther in, switched the perch back to stock height, giving me about the same ride height as before and the difference was night and day. I didn't realize how much I was hitting the bump stops in normal driving even. The car was so much more comfortable in normal driving and at the limit it was more predictable and this is without changing the ride height, stiffness, or damping.
Swaybars. They don't hurt ride quality as much as an equivalent spring required to reduce body roll the same amount but they link the sides together..... sort of, which is not always a good thing. They are a torsional spring and are very effective at dialing in the handling balance you want. They work by linking the opposite sides together and then resisting by twisting when one side tries to sit higher or lower than the other side such as when cornering. I went with the H&R 28mm adjustable solid front bar and Progress adjustable 24mm rear bar. I have many reasons for these choices but I'll get into that tomorrow. There's a lot more to say about swaybars, both good and bad.
Remember that tires increase traction and suspension will enhance dynamics. If you take two TLs, one with a stiffer suspension, one stock, and both on the same tires and put them on a skidpad, the stiffer one will disappoint and the stock one will impress. Their steady state cornering speeds will be pretty close. However, one will feel drastically different during transitions and will stay more composed and more fun, less sloppy (if you set it up right). I'm not saying suspension has no influence on traction but in the TL's case it has little influence.
Since the TL has good suspension geometry, body roll is not the evil it is on some cars. It's not necessary to completely eliminate it and destroy the ride quality to have a very good handling TL.
The 255/40 size is a good choice. I've run this size on stock rims ever since I replaced the OEM tires. No abnormal tire wear or any of the other stuff people bring up and that's with 80k on this size of tire. I think they make the car look better and more aggressive. You get better rim protection, and most importantly you get better traction.
My combo is Aspec front springs and custom rear springs. Koni shocks. Progress 24mm RSB, H&R 28mm FSB. With them being adjustable and in the stiff setting, they're effectively a 25/29mm combo. Nitto NT05 tires soon to be RS3 tires. It's really simple but it took me a long time of swapping parts and tuning to get the car to where it is now. It has that insanely quick response to steering inputs that always surprises people because it rides pretty nice. I've been in cars that rode like crap that did not handle anywhere nearly as good as this car. Instead of concentrating on going super stiff and eliminating any hint of body roll, I focused on "stiff enough" and got the handling balance really dialed in using the swaybars and shocks along with the custom rear springs. I've found that you can go really stiff in the rear and it's hardly noticeable to the driver. Many aftermarket springs increase front stiffness a disproportionate amount compared to the rear, giving it more understeer and hurting handling.
I wanted to get into more detail but I've got to get some sleep. I'll get into the details tomorrow. I really think you would be happy with Aspec, Koni shocks, and the Progress 24mm RSB set to soft. This should give good handling out of the box and you can adjust from there. Beware the 24mm RSB on stiff will make the car feel like it handles better but it will make it more tail happy at the limit. Many people say the H&R springs are similar to the Aspec and a lot cheaper.
11-21-2013, 10:59 PM
#10
Team Owner
Konis really are in a different league compared to most shocks.
11-21-2013, 11:27 PM
#11
Suzuka Master
good info. I have had a set of Tien S-tech springs sitting around for a few years. I was thinking its about time to pair those with some konis. I would be interested in knowing the specs on these springs. I suspect they are every similar to the ASPEC. I want to retain travel as well.
11-22-2013, 08:52 AM
#13
IMO Koni yellows are the best shocks money can buy for a street car.
11-22-2013, 10:26 AM
#14
Former Sponsor
iTrader: (12)
I am in the same boat, may be heading different direction though.
My 06 TL has 150k miles on the odo with stock shocks/springs.
Lately I have noticed the ride to be a bit bouncy, especially over humps/bumps at highway speeds. My thoughts are that the stock shocks are on their way out?
If they indeed are then I'd like to replace them with something a bit let stiffer, yes a bit let stiffer lol. Reason being that I travel to Canada a lot and with the family in the car the TL can be a bit harsh, especially when compared to the RL and GS.
Stock height is fine as I dont intend on lowering the car.
Any recommendations for a good shock/spring set up that would achieve this goal?
My 06 TL has 150k miles on the odo with stock shocks/springs.
Lately I have noticed the ride to be a bit bouncy, especially over humps/bumps at highway speeds. My thoughts are that the stock shocks are on their way out?
If they indeed are then I'd like to replace them with something a bit let stiffer, yes a bit let stiffer lol. Reason being that I travel to Canada a lot and with the family in the car the TL can be a bit harsh, especially when compared to the RL and GS.
Stock height is fine as I dont intend on lowering the car.
Any recommendations for a good shock/spring set up that would achieve this goal?
11-22-2013, 10:39 AM
#15
10th Gear
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: NY
Posts: 10
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
good info. I have had a set of Tien S-tech springs sitting around for a few years. I was thinking its about time to pair those with some konis. I would be interested in knowing the specs on these springs. I suspect they are every similar to the ASPEC. I want to retain travel as well.
Do you still want those springs by any chance?
11-22-2013, 11:35 AM
#16
Suzuka Master
Not sure what you mean....... I have them
11-22-2013, 01:14 PM
#17
I am in the same boat, may be heading different direction though.
My 06 TL has 150k miles on the odo with stock shocks/springs.
Lately I have noticed the ride to be a bit bouncy, especially over humps/bumps at highway speeds. My thoughts are that the stock shocks are on their way out?
If they indeed are then I'd like to replace them with something a bit let stiffer, yes a bit let stiffer lol. Reason being that I travel to Canada a lot and with the family in the car the TL can be a bit harsh, especially when compared to the RL and GS.
Stock height is fine as I dont intend on lowering the car.
Any recommendations for a good shock/spring set up that would achieve this goal?
My 06 TL has 150k miles on the odo with stock shocks/springs.
Lately I have noticed the ride to be a bit bouncy, especially over humps/bumps at highway speeds. My thoughts are that the stock shocks are on their way out?
If they indeed are then I'd like to replace them with something a bit let stiffer, yes a bit let stiffer lol. Reason being that I travel to Canada a lot and with the family in the car the TL can be a bit harsh, especially when compared to the RL and GS.
Stock height is fine as I dont intend on lowering the car.
Any recommendations for a good shock/spring set up that would achieve this goal?
11-22-2013, 08:42 PM
#21
@ Nk-If your referring to the aspec, yes it will fit fine. only difference is the front shocks/springs are designed to support the extra weight of the auto trans so your car might sit a little higher in front, or maybe its just the springs that are different. I highly doubt it affects performance at all. FWIW I have the MT kit on an auto
Last edited by nttstt444; 11-22-2013 at 08:45 PM.
11-22-2013, 08:48 PM
#22
Advanced
Thread Starter
@ Nk-If your referring to the aspec, yes it will fit fine. only difference is the front shocks/springs are designed to support the extra weight of the auto trans so your car might sit a little higher in front, or maybe its just the springs that are different. I highly doubt it affects performance at all. FWIW I have the MT kit on an auto
11-22-2013, 08:58 PM
#23
Team Owner
A softer spring or less damping is not always the answer to a harsh ride. You have to determine why it feels too stiff. If it's hitting the bump stops and you put a softer spring and shock the smallest bumps may not be as bad but the rest of the bumps are going to be a lot worse.
Shocks obviously don't control ride height or how much body roll the car has during steady state cornering, they only control the rate of acceleration. Firmer shocks can help in two ways. They will get rid of excessive body movement or rocking. They also can stop the suspension from bottoming.
Basically would you rather a slightly firmer shock and/or spring transfer bumps gently to the body or would you rather slam the bumpstop and instantly transfer the bump to the body?
If I were looking for better ride quality over stock coming from a high mileage stock suspension I would do a good shock like Koni Yelllows first and see if that gives the desired improvement and go from there. While most people might not notice, I noticed a slight decrease in damping at 40,000 miles on the stock shocks and went with Konis. Shocks dont have to bleed to be bad. Once they start leaking excessively internally they're bad and they might not leak a drop.
Replacing worn stock shocks will likely make the small bumps a little more noticeable but the car will be more comfortable overall especially when loaded down with family. Konis on soft are really close to the stock stiffness but with better body control. You'll have a lifetime warranty and a shock that can deal with shorter and much stiffer springs and swaybars should you ever decide to upgrade.
Shocks obviously don't control ride height or how much body roll the car has during steady state cornering, they only control the rate of acceleration. Firmer shocks can help in two ways. They will get rid of excessive body movement or rocking. They also can stop the suspension from bottoming.
Basically would you rather a slightly firmer shock and/or spring transfer bumps gently to the body or would you rather slam the bumpstop and instantly transfer the bump to the body?
If I were looking for better ride quality over stock coming from a high mileage stock suspension I would do a good shock like Koni Yelllows first and see if that gives the desired improvement and go from there. While most people might not notice, I noticed a slight decrease in damping at 40,000 miles on the stock shocks and went with Konis. Shocks dont have to bleed to be bad. Once they start leaking excessively internally they're bad and they might not leak a drop.
Replacing worn stock shocks will likely make the small bumps a little more noticeable but the car will be more comfortable overall especially when loaded down with family. Konis on soft are really close to the stock stiffness but with better body control. You'll have a lifetime warranty and a shock that can deal with shorter and much stiffer springs and swaybars should you ever decide to upgrade.
11-22-2013, 09:07 PM
#24
Team Owner
I'm still not sure if there's a difference in height of the manual vs auto aspec springs. I have the rate of my aspec springs somewhere. I have the manual springs in my 5at and drop was about 3/4" from the springs and another 3/4" from the shocks. I was really worried about the looks, I hate the slammed look but luckily my 255/40/17 tires give another 1/4" of fender gap to keep it from looking too low but it's deceivingly low.
It was said in the early days that the auto springs sat higher and I don't think anyone ever verified it. It's possible but I'm far from sure.
It was said in the early days that the auto springs sat higher and I don't think anyone ever verified it. It's possible but I'm far from sure.
11-22-2013, 09:15 PM
#25
Team Owner
Lol thanks. I'm almost always posting from my phone or from work so I leave out a good bit of detail out of laziness or just not having much time. Like this thread, there's a lot more detail in the spring/shock/swaybar selection but I think the OP has left and I'm practically brain dead from this week at work. Sometimes I read the stuff I posted earlier and just shake my head. 
lol.
Edit: speaking of brain dead I didn't realize the op has been posting the whole time when i said he had left the thread. I need sleep badly.
lol.Edit: speaking of brain dead I didn't realize the op has been posting the whole time when i said he had left the thread. I need sleep badly.
Last edited by I hate cars; 11-22-2013 at 09:18 PM.
11-23-2013, 06:47 AM
#26
Advanced
Thread Starter
Lol thanks. I'm almost always posting from my phone or from work so I leave out a good bit of detail out of laziness or just not having much time. Like this thread, there's a lot more detail in the spring/shock/swaybar selection but I think the OP has left and I'm practically brain dead from this week at work. Sometimes I read the stuff I posted earlier and just shake my head. lol.
Edit: speaking of brain dead I didn't realize the op has been posting the whole time when i said he had left the thread. I need sleep badly.
lol.Edit: speaking of brain dead I didn't realize the op has been posting the whole time when i said he had left the thread. I need sleep badly.
11-23-2013, 07:46 AM
#27
3G TL/2G MDX Owner
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: The west side of the Potomac River
Posts: 5,375
Received 978 Likes
on
803 Posts
^^keep in mind that the FSB is going to be a pITA to swap b/ce it requires the subframe to be dropped. so if you don't mind the extra effort have at it.
i have Aspec and progress RSB...plenty of
to go around. i personally wouldn't want the ride in the TL firmer than what Aspec has to offer, but that's me.
Happy cornering!
i have Aspec and progress RSB...plenty of
to go around. i personally wouldn't want the ride in the TL firmer than what Aspec has to offer, but that's me. Happy cornering!
11-25-2013, 09:56 AM
#28
Racer
I wanted the same thing when I first started changing the suspension. My conclusion was there is no stock height stiffer spring out there. Aspec comes close and it's a great balance between stiffness and comfort for a daily driver. Even though I did not want to lower the car, a 3/4" drop make it look so much better, even newer. Even my friends noticed the car looked better but didn't know I had barely lowered it.
I look at several factors when pulling a combo together:
Tires. The single biggest improvement you can make in handling, braking, and acceleration is the tires. Tires can improve performance in every area more than every suspension mod combined. The rubber compound is more important than width. This is why I shake my head when I see people with thousands of dollars in suspension and they start a thread asking about some $80 tire. Nitto NT05, Dunlop Star Spec, Hankook RS3 are easily the top 3 for absolute maximum traction in dry and wet conditions. All have advantages and disadvantages over each other but for all out dry traction the RS3 should come out on top and it's pretty cheap. Michelin has a great ultra high performance summer tire but it's very expensive and generally accepted as just a hair below these three. Your climate and usage will dictate if these tires are acceptable or not. None will live a long life but the traction is so addicting that you will probably never be able to go back to a normal summer tire again. You will also never find so little traction as if you try one of these tires in the snow or extreme cold. Freezing temps are fine but I wouldn't run them if it regularly gets below freezing.
Handling balance. Does the rear end slide out first or does the front end push and the car goes wide in a corner.
Comfort. It's a street car, can't get too carried away. Instead of doing really stiff springs ideally, I went with a reasonable spring and added larger swaybars to help make up the difference.
Damping. Unless you get shocks that are custom valved to your car's weight and springs (swaybars count as a spring sort of) you need adjustable shocks to get the most out of it and to "adjust" the entry and exit attitude. More damping is definitely not always better. Konis are the best I've ever used at controlling the suspension and body but doing so without harshness. I start fine tuning the shocks after the springs and swaybars are installed and the swaybars set to get the handling balance close to the way I like it. The main point is you want to damp excess movements but not restrict movement.
Traction vs stiffness. If you plan on running a more aggressive tire you will want a stiffer, better damped suspension. You're going to have more body roll with more traction and an aggressive tire will likely have sharper turn-in and all around more responsive so you need a suspension that can cover it without getting upset.
Suspension travel. It's is so incredibly important to keep full suspension stroke or at least very close to it and 99% of the people doing suspension mods don't even think about it. Our cars already sit close to the bump stops from the factory. The last thing you want is for the suspension to hit the end of it's travel. It can hurt the car, it kills ride comfort, it destroys handling balance. This is where *some* coilovers have an advantage over just springs and shocks. Some allow you to lower the car while retaining full suspension stroke. I found a way around this with the Koni shocks. Normally if you lower the spring perch to make the car sit lower you lose that much stroke. By knocking the mounting tab off and sliding the shock farther down into it's hole while keeping the spring perch on the stock setting gives full stroke even at a lower ride height. Originally I added Konis in the lower of the two height settings and liked them. As I began tracking the car and really paying attention I thought I was hitting the bumpstops especially in hard corners and under braking if there were any bumps involved. I looked at the suspension and figured out if I could get the shock to slide farther into the clamp it would lower the car without changing suspension travel. So I did it, I slide it farther in, switched the perch back to stock height, giving me about the same ride height as before and the difference was night and day. I didn't realize how much I was hitting the bump stops in normal driving even. The car was so much more comfortable in normal driving and at the limit it was more predictable and this is without changing the ride height, stiffness, or damping.
Swaybars. They don't hurt ride quality as much as an equivalent spring required to reduce body roll the same amount but they link the sides together..... sort of, which is not always a good thing. They are a torsional spring and are very effective at dialing in the handling balance you want. They work by linking the opposite sides together and then resisting by twisting when one side tries to sit higher or lower than the other side such as when cornering. I went with the H&R 28mm adjustable solid front bar and Progress adjustable 24mm rear bar. I have many reasons for these choices but I'll get into that tomorrow. There's a lot more to say about swaybars, both good and bad.
Remember that tires increase traction and suspension will enhance dynamics. If you take two TLs, one with a stiffer suspension, one stock, and both on the same tires and put them on a skidpad, the stiffer one will disappoint and the stock one will impress. Their steady state cornering speeds will be pretty close. However, one will feel drastically different during transitions and will stay more composed and more fun, less sloppy (if you set it up right). I'm not saying suspension has no influence on traction but in the TL's case it has little influence.
Since the TL has good suspension geometry, body roll is not the evil it is on some cars. It's not necessary to completely eliminate it and destroy the ride quality to have a very good handling TL.
The 255/40 size is a good choice. I've run this size on stock rims ever since I replaced the OEM tires. No abnormal tire wear or any of the other stuff people bring up and that's with 80k on this size of tire. I think they make the car look better and more aggressive. You get better rim protection, and most importantly you get better traction.
My combo is Aspec front springs and custom rear springs. Koni shocks. Progress 24mm RSB, H&R 28mm FSB. With them being adjustable and in the stiff setting, they're effectively a 25/29mm combo. Nitto NT05 tires soon to be RS3 tires. It's really simple but it took me a long time of swapping parts and tuning to get the car to where it is now. It has that insanely quick response to steering inputs that always surprises people because it rides pretty nice. I've been in cars that rode like crap that did not handle anywhere nearly as good as this car. Instead of concentrating on going super stiff and eliminating any hint of body roll, I focused on "stiff enough" and got the handling balance really dialed in using the swaybars and shocks along with the custom rear springs. I've found that you can go really stiff in the rear and it's hardly noticeable to the driver. Many aftermarket springs increase front stiffness a disproportionate amount compared to the rear, giving it more understeer and hurting handling.
I wanted to get into more detail but I've got to get some sleep. I'll get into the details tomorrow. I really think you would be happy with Aspec, Koni shocks, and the Progress 24mm RSB set to soft. This should give good handling out of the box and you can adjust from there. Beware the 24mm RSB on stiff will make the car feel like it handles better but it will make it more tail happy at the limit. Many people say the H&R springs are similar to the Aspec and a lot cheaper.
I look at several factors when pulling a combo together:
Tires. The single biggest improvement you can make in handling, braking, and acceleration is the tires. Tires can improve performance in every area more than every suspension mod combined. The rubber compound is more important than width. This is why I shake my head when I see people with thousands of dollars in suspension and they start a thread asking about some $80 tire. Nitto NT05, Dunlop Star Spec, Hankook RS3 are easily the top 3 for absolute maximum traction in dry and wet conditions. All have advantages and disadvantages over each other but for all out dry traction the RS3 should come out on top and it's pretty cheap. Michelin has a great ultra high performance summer tire but it's very expensive and generally accepted as just a hair below these three. Your climate and usage will dictate if these tires are acceptable or not. None will live a long life but the traction is so addicting that you will probably never be able to go back to a normal summer tire again. You will also never find so little traction as if you try one of these tires in the snow or extreme cold. Freezing temps are fine but I wouldn't run them if it regularly gets below freezing.
Handling balance. Does the rear end slide out first or does the front end push and the car goes wide in a corner.
Comfort. It's a street car, can't get too carried away. Instead of doing really stiff springs ideally, I went with a reasonable spring and added larger swaybars to help make up the difference.
Damping. Unless you get shocks that are custom valved to your car's weight and springs (swaybars count as a spring sort of) you need adjustable shocks to get the most out of it and to "adjust" the entry and exit attitude. More damping is definitely not always better. Konis are the best I've ever used at controlling the suspension and body but doing so without harshness. I start fine tuning the shocks after the springs and swaybars are installed and the swaybars set to get the handling balance close to the way I like it. The main point is you want to damp excess movements but not restrict movement.
Traction vs stiffness. If you plan on running a more aggressive tire you will want a stiffer, better damped suspension. You're going to have more body roll with more traction and an aggressive tire will likely have sharper turn-in and all around more responsive so you need a suspension that can cover it without getting upset.
Suspension travel. It's is so incredibly important to keep full suspension stroke or at least very close to it and 99% of the people doing suspension mods don't even think about it. Our cars already sit close to the bump stops from the factory. The last thing you want is for the suspension to hit the end of it's travel. It can hurt the car, it kills ride comfort, it destroys handling balance. This is where *some* coilovers have an advantage over just springs and shocks. Some allow you to lower the car while retaining full suspension stroke. I found a way around this with the Koni shocks. Normally if you lower the spring perch to make the car sit lower you lose that much stroke. By knocking the mounting tab off and sliding the shock farther down into it's hole while keeping the spring perch on the stock setting gives full stroke even at a lower ride height. Originally I added Konis in the lower of the two height settings and liked them. As I began tracking the car and really paying attention I thought I was hitting the bumpstops especially in hard corners and under braking if there were any bumps involved. I looked at the suspension and figured out if I could get the shock to slide farther into the clamp it would lower the car without changing suspension travel. So I did it, I slide it farther in, switched the perch back to stock height, giving me about the same ride height as before and the difference was night and day. I didn't realize how much I was hitting the bump stops in normal driving even. The car was so much more comfortable in normal driving and at the limit it was more predictable and this is without changing the ride height, stiffness, or damping.
Swaybars. They don't hurt ride quality as much as an equivalent spring required to reduce body roll the same amount but they link the sides together..... sort of, which is not always a good thing. They are a torsional spring and are very effective at dialing in the handling balance you want. They work by linking the opposite sides together and then resisting by twisting when one side tries to sit higher or lower than the other side such as when cornering. I went with the H&R 28mm adjustable solid front bar and Progress adjustable 24mm rear bar. I have many reasons for these choices but I'll get into that tomorrow. There's a lot more to say about swaybars, both good and bad.
Remember that tires increase traction and suspension will enhance dynamics. If you take two TLs, one with a stiffer suspension, one stock, and both on the same tires and put them on a skidpad, the stiffer one will disappoint and the stock one will impress. Their steady state cornering speeds will be pretty close. However, one will feel drastically different during transitions and will stay more composed and more fun, less sloppy (if you set it up right). I'm not saying suspension has no influence on traction but in the TL's case it has little influence.
Since the TL has good suspension geometry, body roll is not the evil it is on some cars. It's not necessary to completely eliminate it and destroy the ride quality to have a very good handling TL.
The 255/40 size is a good choice. I've run this size on stock rims ever since I replaced the OEM tires. No abnormal tire wear or any of the other stuff people bring up and that's with 80k on this size of tire. I think they make the car look better and more aggressive. You get better rim protection, and most importantly you get better traction.
My combo is Aspec front springs and custom rear springs. Koni shocks. Progress 24mm RSB, H&R 28mm FSB. With them being adjustable and in the stiff setting, they're effectively a 25/29mm combo. Nitto NT05 tires soon to be RS3 tires. It's really simple but it took me a long time of swapping parts and tuning to get the car to where it is now. It has that insanely quick response to steering inputs that always surprises people because it rides pretty nice. I've been in cars that rode like crap that did not handle anywhere nearly as good as this car. Instead of concentrating on going super stiff and eliminating any hint of body roll, I focused on "stiff enough" and got the handling balance really dialed in using the swaybars and shocks along with the custom rear springs. I've found that you can go really stiff in the rear and it's hardly noticeable to the driver. Many aftermarket springs increase front stiffness a disproportionate amount compared to the rear, giving it more understeer and hurting handling.
I wanted to get into more detail but I've got to get some sleep. I'll get into the details tomorrow. I really think you would be happy with Aspec, Koni shocks, and the Progress 24mm RSB set to soft. This should give good handling out of the box and you can adjust from there. Beware the 24mm RSB on stiff will make the car feel like it handles better but it will make it more tail happy at the limit. Many people say the H&R springs are similar to the Aspec and a lot cheaper.
This seriously helps so much. I'm looking for a track handling car, doesn't bother me if the right quality sucks. My sucker of a friend got an S2000, thankfully he isn't a that good of a driver and with the right bravery my TL-S can keep up. But not without making the hairs on my neck stand up.
How do you have custom rear springs? I think I'm going for your setup of the ASPEC springs and KONI shocks with a Progress RSB. I was also thinking of getting Ultra Racing's front/rear member bracing. I plan on tracking my car. Any advice?
11-25-2013, 01:01 PM
#29
Team Owner
This seriously helps so much. I'm looking for a track handling car, doesn't bother me if the right quality sucks. My sucker of a friend got an S2000, thankfully he isn't a that good of a driver and with the right bravery my TL-S can keep up. But not without making the hairs on my neck stand up.
How do you have custom rear springs? I think I'm going for your setup of the ASPEC springs and KONI shocks with a Progress RSB. I was also thinking of getting Ultra Racing's front/rear member bracing. I plan on tracking my car. Any advice?
How do you have custom rear springs? I think I'm going for your setup of the ASPEC springs and KONI shocks with a Progress RSB. I was also thinking of getting Ultra Racing's front/rear member bracing. I plan on tracking my car. Any advice?
If you're looking for a more track oriented spring, apsec might be on the soft side for you. It's a great compromise between ride quality and track performance but if this is a weekend car you could probably go a little stiffer.
To be honest, the TL-S is a very well balanced setup from the factory. You might be happy with just tires for right now. In stock form you should be able to be very competitive for the S2000 with good tires. It would be good to get an idea of what needs improving over stock before adding a bunch of stuff.
If you have the luxury of time, it's a lot of fun and a good learning experience to make one change to the car at a time and see what it does. You'll see how certain popular mods that people say makes it handle so well will have you going sideways easier than stock.
I've found the TL with this setup still reasonably forgiving at the limit. When the rear slides out, it's easy to control. You just have to remember to stay in the throttle, don't let off, and don't hit the brakes. FWD can be counterintuitive sometimes. You'll nearly always be able to catch the initial slide, the focus needs to be on straightening up the wheel on time or even leading the rear end a little so you don't overcorrect. It can still make you nervous since it probably won't be covered by insurance if you wreck it on the track.
Tightening up the suspension and body movements will make it a bit less hairy around the track. It will feel more stable and without the slop that's there from the factory. You'll probably improve your driving with the stiffer suspension as your confidence goes up. It helps to take the car in the middle of nowhere, where you can take it up to and past it's limits. Once you know how the car is going to act at the limit you'll be a lot more confident pushing those limits on the track.
What kind of speeds do you expect to hit at your track? You can set it up to be more tail happy at lower speeds and you even want it to be a little tail happy for auto-x especially in a relatively long wheelbase car like the TL. For the higher speed stuff, the S2000 really doesn't have an advantage other than weight and tires will help make up for the weight difference.
Some of the frame bracing I've seen looks like it might work, some will definitely not. A strut tower brace front or rear would be a huge waste of money. I like the idea of subframe connectors but they need to go from subframe to subframe ideally, not attach to the body near the subframes. The TL actually has really good torsional rigidity from the factory. The stiffer you go on the suspension and the more aggressive the tire, the more you will need bracing. To be honest, it would probably be the last thing I would do on this car unless you have a really bumpy track.
If you want to really stick it to the S2000, try a track tire like the Nitto NT01. No good for the street even though they are street legal, they will never reach operating temp and they're incredibly noisy. But on the track it will give you a huge advantage assuming equal skill levels.
Skill level obviously plays the largest role by a long shot. You've probably seen the German chick in a Spriter Van outrunning exotics and bikes on the track.
Last edited by I hate cars; 11-25-2013 at 01:03 PM.
The following users liked this post:
Corey_Straker (11-25-2013)
The following users liked this post:
Corey_Straker (11-25-2013)
11-25-2013, 01:46 PM
#31
Racer
I had a set of springs made/ordered from a local shop. I basically did testing using those cheap spring spacers (that go in between coils to lock them out) you can get from most auto parts stores. I added or subtracted spacers which stiffened or softened the springs until I had what I wanted. Once I did that, the shop matched a set of springs to that rate and height but without requiring the spacers. I have had a spacer in the front aspec springs for a couple months now for evaluation and I might end up going just a little stiffer up front as well. The surprising thing is over some of the larger bumps I occasionally go over, the bumps were a lot softer with the springs stiffened up which tells me I was hitting the bumpstops before.
If you're looking for a more track oriented spring, apsec might be on the soft side for you. It's a great compromise between ride quality and track performance but if this is a weekend car you could probably go a little stiffer.
To be honest, the TL-S is a very well balanced setup from the factory. You might be happy with just tires for right now. In stock form you should be able to be very competitive for the S2000 with good tires. It would be good to get an idea of what needs improving over stock before adding a bunch of stuff.
If you have the luxury of time, it's a lot of fun and a good learning experience to make one change to the car at a time and see what it does. You'll see how certain popular mods that people say makes it handle so well will have you going sideways easier than stock.
I've found the TL with this setup still reasonably forgiving at the limit. When the rear slides out, it's easy to control. You just have to remember to stay in the throttle, don't let off, and don't hit the brakes. FWD can be counterintuitive sometimes. You'll nearly always be able to catch the initial slide, the focus needs to be on straightening up the wheel on time or even leading the rear end a little so you don't overcorrect. It can still make you nervous since it probably won't be covered by insurance if you wreck it on the track.
Tightening up the suspension and body movements will make it a bit less hairy around the track. It will feel more stable and without the slop that's there from the factory. You'll probably improve your driving with the stiffer suspension as your confidence goes up. It helps to take the car in the middle of nowhere, where you can take it up to and past it's limits. Once you know how the car is going to act at the limit you'll be a lot more confident pushing those limits on the track.
What kind of speeds do you expect to hit at your track? You can set it up to be more tail happy at lower speeds and you even want it to be a little tail happy for auto-x especially in a relatively long wheelbase car like the TL. For the higher speed stuff, the S2000 really doesn't have an advantage other than weight and tires will help make up for the weight difference.
Some of the frame bracing I've seen looks like it might work, some will definitely not. A strut tower brace front or rear would be a huge waste of money. I like the idea of subframe connectors but they need to go from subframe to subframe ideally, not attach to the body near the subframes. The TL actually has really good torsional rigidity from the factory. The stiffer you go on the suspension and the more aggressive the tire, the more you will need bracing. To be honest, it would probably be the last thing I would do on this car unless you have a really bumpy track.
If you want to really stick it to the S2000, try a track tire like the Nitto NT01. No good for the street even though they are street legal, they will never reach operating temp and they're incredibly noisy. But on the track it will give you a huge advantage assuming equal skill levels.
Skill level obviously plays the largest role by a long shot. You've probably seen the German chick in a Spriter Van outrunning exotics and bikes on the track.
If you're looking for a more track oriented spring, apsec might be on the soft side for you. It's a great compromise between ride quality and track performance but if this is a weekend car you could probably go a little stiffer.
To be honest, the TL-S is a very well balanced setup from the factory. You might be happy with just tires for right now. In stock form you should be able to be very competitive for the S2000 with good tires. It would be good to get an idea of what needs improving over stock before adding a bunch of stuff.
If you have the luxury of time, it's a lot of fun and a good learning experience to make one change to the car at a time and see what it does. You'll see how certain popular mods that people say makes it handle so well will have you going sideways easier than stock.
I've found the TL with this setup still reasonably forgiving at the limit. When the rear slides out, it's easy to control. You just have to remember to stay in the throttle, don't let off, and don't hit the brakes. FWD can be counterintuitive sometimes. You'll nearly always be able to catch the initial slide, the focus needs to be on straightening up the wheel on time or even leading the rear end a little so you don't overcorrect. It can still make you nervous since it probably won't be covered by insurance if you wreck it on the track.
Tightening up the suspension and body movements will make it a bit less hairy around the track. It will feel more stable and without the slop that's there from the factory. You'll probably improve your driving with the stiffer suspension as your confidence goes up. It helps to take the car in the middle of nowhere, where you can take it up to and past it's limits. Once you know how the car is going to act at the limit you'll be a lot more confident pushing those limits on the track.
What kind of speeds do you expect to hit at your track? You can set it up to be more tail happy at lower speeds and you even want it to be a little tail happy for auto-x especially in a relatively long wheelbase car like the TL. For the higher speed stuff, the S2000 really doesn't have an advantage other than weight and tires will help make up for the weight difference.
Some of the frame bracing I've seen looks like it might work, some will definitely not. A strut tower brace front or rear would be a huge waste of money. I like the idea of subframe connectors but they need to go from subframe to subframe ideally, not attach to the body near the subframes. The TL actually has really good torsional rigidity from the factory. The stiffer you go on the suspension and the more aggressive the tire, the more you will need bracing. To be honest, it would probably be the last thing I would do on this car unless you have a really bumpy track.
If you want to really stick it to the S2000, try a track tire like the Nitto NT01. No good for the street even though they are street legal, they will never reach operating temp and they're incredibly noisy. But on the track it will give you a huge advantage assuming equal skill levels.
Skill level obviously plays the largest role by a long shot. You've probably seen the German chick in a Spriter Van outrunning exotics and bikes on the track.
The suspension in my car has a lot of slop especially around my neck of the woods. What do you think of TIEN coilovers with EDFC? That way I can control the dampening in real time.
This suspension s*** is confusing, more so then the engine and transmission stuff. I really appreciate your help.
11-27-2013, 06:50 AM
#32
^^keep in mind that the FSB is going to be a pITA to swap b/ce it requires the subframe to be dropped. so if you don't mind the extra effort have at it.
i have Aspec and progress RSB...plenty of to go around. i personally wouldn't want the ride in the TL firmer than what Aspec has to offer, but that's me.
Happy cornering!
i have Aspec and progress RSB...plenty of
to go around. i personally wouldn't want the ride in the TL firmer than what Aspec has to offer, but that's me. Happy cornering!
I guess my question is does the aspec suspension even out the car with the drop?
11-27-2013, 10:57 AM
#33
3G TL/2G MDX Owner
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: The west side of the Potomac River
Posts: 5,375
Received 978 Likes
on
803 Posts
^^my stock setup front sat higher....same with aspec. if you put MT aspec on AT TL...should sit even or front a hair lower. i have 6MT base. my drop was roughly 3/4". subtle, and noticeable by trained eye.
i was looking more performance than more drop. i drop any more than Aspec...scrape, scrape, scrape...out of my driveway.
i was looking more performance than more drop. i drop any more than Aspec...scrape, scrape, scrape...out of my driveway.
11-29-2013, 09:41 AM
#34
Racer
^^my stock setup front sat higher....same with aspec. if you put MT aspec on AT TL...should sit even or front a hair lower. i have 6MT base. my drop was roughly 3/4". subtle, and noticeable by trained eye.
i was looking more performance than more drop. i drop any more than Aspec...scrape, scrape, scrape...out of my driveway.
i was looking more performance than more drop. i drop any more than Aspec...scrape, scrape, scrape...out of my driveway.
11-29-2013, 09:49 AM
#35
3G TL/2G MDX Owner
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: The west side of the Potomac River
Posts: 5,375
Received 978 Likes
on
803 Posts
type-s vs aspec...i have no idea. i know the difference between aspec and the 6MT base. definitely night and day. no more floaty feeling over speed humps, tighter in turns with less body roll (my RSB upgrade came after a few months with Aspec suspension, which the progress RSB tightens the car up a bit more with little body roll than without it), car felt confident in turns...
you need to go find a local with aspec suspension in their car.
you need to go find a local with aspec suspension in their car.
11-29-2013, 06:09 PM
#36
Team Owner
I only have a few hours behind the wheel of a TL-S and that was a while ago. I got to take it to the limit but it's still hard to compare. If you're wondering if you will feel a difference, there's no doubt. You already have the stiffer shock mounts which should make aspec slightly more noticeable. I don't know if it would be worth it to you though. Now if you did aspec springs and Koni shocks I would say hell yes.
11-30-2013, 06:28 AM
#37
I only have a few hours behind the wheel of a TL-S and that was a while ago. I got to take it to the limit but it's still hard to compare. If you're wondering if you will feel a difference, there's no doubt. You already have the stiffer shock mounts which should make aspec slightly more noticeable. I don't know if it would be worth it to you though. Now if you did aspec springs and Koni shocks I would say hell yes.
11-30-2013, 08:06 AM
#38
Team Owner
Better damping while riding slightly better. Those two features are usually mutually exclusive. They have the ability to go very stiff if needed but that is best left for stiffer springs and can hurt performance on softer springs. It is nice to be able to make small adjustments, even compensating for the yearly climate changes.
11-30-2013, 12:04 PM
#39
Racer
Better damping while riding slightly better. Those two features are usually mutually exclusive. They have the ability to go very stiff if needed but that is best left for stiffer springs and can hurt performance on softer springs. It is nice to be able to make small adjustments, even compensating for the yearly climate changes.
Thank you for your help IHC.