Jackass

Curious on your choice of the P7s considering on paper, they are worse at almost everything than the MXM4? I am not nitpciking...just truly curious considering I am going through the same thought process in my head and wondering how you arrived there. People complain about the MXM4 a lot (I don't) and on paper they are worse on dry and wet scores. Why wouldn't you go with the P Zero AS+ or the DWS 06? I go back and forth across 4-5 tires on what my purchase will be come spring. Overall winter performance is not a huge concern for me at this time since I did pick up a set of winter wheels last year and put on a set of Winter Sottozero3 on them.

rockstar143

iTrader: (6)

hey, let's keep the name calling to a minimum

nfnsquared

I used to run the Conti DWS / DWS06 all year long. They were admirable in snow.

I finally set aside enough coin to get a dedicated winter wheel/tire setup and I wonder why I waited so long. I'm running the Good Year Ultra Grip Ice WRT and they are noticeably better on ice/snow than the DWS06. The DWS06 is no slouch in snow, but the WRTs are better, as they should be. This will be my 4th winter on the WRTs and they still look brand new. They will probably last another 4 winters, at least.

For my next set of winter tires, I'll probably go with the Blizzacks as they seem to be the perennial king of winter tires.

6spd-GERCO

Lol, Yes, the first set of A/S I got for my TL was the Conti DWS. I didn't care for them because once the S wore off they weren't any good in the snow. Even brand new the DWS was comical. I bought I_love_cars old set of winter tires when he sold his TL-S and haven't looked back since. I am running General Arctic Altimax's, This tire is the most popular winter tire for Ice Rally X and Winter Autox. They will be loud on dry pavement but that's just the nature of the beast. Their grip on ice,snow and slush is tremendous, get them in the dry and drive them hard and the car gets all squirmy. I had Conti DW's and thought the side wall was to soft and had to have one replaced under warranty due to the wheel chunking near the outter edge from regular street driving.

Nice chart Jackass, lol strange writing that. You nailed it, it's all about trade offs but for winter driving I will take those trade offs any day.

One thing I do know is how my TL is going to react in certain situations and feel like I have a pretty good handle on how to correctly manage the cars weight to get it to do what I want. A/S will work fine in the winter, but in crummy weather the difference between the two may mean the difference between getting into an accident and not.

My "testing"

horseshoez

iTrader: (2)

Good questions all...

Regarding the various offerings from Michelin, I have considered the Premier A/S, the Primacy MXM4, and the Pilot Sport A/S 3, of the three the Premier A/S and the Primacy MXM4 are stupid expensive compared to the other tires, while the Pilot Sport A/S 3 is on my "Top 5" list (it seemingly has better numbers and can be had for a competitive price). The only cause for hesitation regarding the Pilot Sports is I had a previous version on a Mazda, and they got so noisy after 30,000 miles I had to have them replaced.

Regarding the Continental ExtremeContact DWS 06s, I like the ones on our minivan, but most reports indicate they are pretty soft from a handling perspective (the higher profile ones on the Town & Country are definitely soft), and I'm looking for something a bit firmer/sportier.

Down to the Pirelli offernings; the P Zero All Season Plus tires lose out to the P7s if for no other reason than their ice traction scores; that and I had the P7s on our GTI and they were really-really good year-round.

rockstar143

iTrader: (6)

having limited experience in snow tires...
I drove a set of x-ice 3 michelin down from Ohio once...
I would definitely NOT ever use all seasons...I'd rather a dedicated snow set and a dedicated summer tire like the MPSS.

horseshoez

iTrader: (2)

There is always a trade-off, I prefer high end all-season rubber for winter driving for 90% of the miles as they easily outperform winter rubber on dry and simply wet pavement; the trade-off here is when inclement weather is happing. The beauty of my current employment situation is, we are actually encouraged to work from home on days with weather events forecast, so as a rule I will hardly ever need the dedicated winter tires, and on the rare occasion when I might need to venture out, a little extra caution will be the order of the day.

I should mention "all things are relative". When I was a 16-year old with a brand new Driver's License, I was driving a RWD 1969 Plymouth Fury 383-4BBL with bias-ply tires; in comparison I suspect my TL, even if it was shod with dedicated summer rubber, would be significantly easier to drive in the snow than the old Fury.

BROlando

Stop living my life.

Joecop67

My first car was a 1970 Buick skylark with the 350 v8. Fun driving that in Ohio in the winter. Lol

rockstar143

iTrader: (6)

YOU GUYS KNOW HOW TO PARTY

horseshoez

iTrader: (2)

Or we're just as old as petrified poop.

BROlando

1st car was a Nissan 240SX.

Didn't know it was RWD until I did my first burnout.

Didn't know winter tyres existed.

Wasn't aware of how much tread a burnout uses up.

Was fond of burnouts.

Am fond of burnouts.

No accidents. LOTS of burnouts and snow drifting.

:sigh:

6spd-GERCO

I bet the old fury wouldn't be to bad in the snow, skinny tires with an aggressive old school tread design, couple bags of sand in the trunk and you would be good to go. My folks daily drove a 1968 corvette in the winters, they said it wasn't a problem getting around either. I think people were better drivers. Everybody are in such a rush for whatever reason and distracted to the max today. No common sense.

JackAss, what was the ambient temps for the dry and wet tests in your chart?

BROlando

My theory is a bit different.

I don't think people necessarily have more or less common sense than before.

Your parents likely had the same amount of trouble (apples to apples). That same car is, in the same conditions, on the same tyres would be as difficult to drive today as it was in 1968.

However, the fact that they bought a Corvette tells me they were at least *semi* enthusiastic about driving. So they had more awareness and more knowledge about how to handle snowy weather.

People who buy appliances to drive don't really care about driving. And that's what its turned into. Fewer people are "in to" cars now.

There are a lot of human factors as well, of course.

Distraction exists more today...sure. But cars are also safer. ABS and traction control are WIDELY common now. Headlights are better. Tyres are better. Automotive design is better. Things like passive braking and lane keeping are emerging more and more.

The big factor, I believe, is density of traffic.

Your parents didn't have to contend with today's traffic or population density. More density means more frequent interaction and subsequently, more accident probability, speaking purely statistically.

Not sure where y'all be from...but its probably more populous now than it was in 1968.

Jackass

That is a great question...this data is all from TireRack test results so I really don't know. I think that is the biggest thing to consider when trying to compare results between summer vs winter tires. All-Season tires in the summer may perform on dry or wet pavement differently at 85F than they do at 5F. That is one of the other points of getting people in cold environments to use dedicated winter tires. Generally the winter rubber compounds will remain much more pliable and usable at the lower temps.

To note, I went with the SottoZero specifically because it didn't "appear" to compromise on dry/wet traction when compared to the higher rated Winter tires. I was ok with giving up some on snow/ice traction to keep my dry/wet performance similar to my regular tires since 90% of my winter driving is not on snow/ice. I wanted as "similar" of a driving experience as I could get and didn't want the squishy feeling I have had on previous more aggressive snow/ice tires I had on a past car.

6spd-GERCO

Thanks for clarifying. Maybe make a note of it on the chart?

It was bought because my Dad wanted a fiberglass bodied car that wouldn't rust out like other cars. They didn't get stuck in the car, they drove it 100k as a DD. The C3 has better weight distribution than standard autos of the time, the engine is mostly behind the front axle, gas tank sits above the rear axle, low CG. It has a lot of things going for it. but, No ABS, No power brakes, No power steering.

The reason I say people where better drivers is because there was less electronic assists. No ABS, need to pump the brakes. It was more manual and required more attention to what was happening around you and to the car. What good is passive braking and lane keeping? It allows people to be complacent drivers, It's ok I don't need to keep it between the lines because my car will do it for me. I can follow to closely because my car will brake for me. My TPMS will tell me when I have a low tire because I can't feel that one of my tires is flat, or I can't even notice or care to look at my tires before I get in my car.

Density doesn't help but that's only at peak use time that it becomes a problem. You won't believe how many people can't handle merging on to the highway or making a simple lane change, use their mirrors, let alone use their blinker. Oh wait we go blind spot detectors. You see people that say I gotta have AWD to drive in the snow when that system does not change braking or ability to steer.

horseshoez

iTrader: (2)

Yeah, I always laugh when someone says, "I need AWD because it might snow a few times per year where I live." Yeesh.

Jackass

I am a fan of AWD for sure....but agree completely when people say they MUST have it. We have my FWD TL and my wife has an AWD Terrain. What do we prefer to drive in the snow? The Terrain for sure. So much less frustrating when you don't have to futz around constantly at stop lights trying to get traction. Just have to remember that you can't stop or turn any better....only accelerate better. My car has spent many nights at the base of the driveway since it can't always make it up the hill, but the Terrain always makes it to the garage.

I have had several cars that didn't have any of the electronic Nanny systems....and which do I prefer? I like the Nanny features...as long as I can turn them off when I want them off. A true panic stop or lane change...how many people will be able to react 100% properly in that immediate instant? How about a panic lane change with braking in the rain or in the snow? You may be able to modulate your brakes better when expecting it and driving on a track, but split-second emergency stuff....you cannot modulate individual braking on each tire like a modern ABS system can. The last time I drove a non-ABS car was probably back in 2001'ish and we got caught in sleet/freezing rain coming through the mountains in Georgia. Every time I even touched the brake pedal the car started to get sideways. If I had ABS, no it wouldn't have helped me stop quickly, but it would have at least allowed me to apply at least some limited braking force without trying to send the ass-end out and around on me.

Lane assist...blind spot monitoring...I personally have no need for it. I "generally" do check my mirrors and blind spots properly and overall attempt to be aware of where the cars around me are. Only time I get caught off guard is when the random guy doing 90 comes flying by unexpectedly since I didn't see him in the mirrors. However now that I have kids, it has added to the level of distraction in the vehicle and does make it more difficult to keep track of everything outside of the car as easily/often.

teh CL

iTrader: (1)

AWD definitely isn't needed for winter. Common sense, fwd & decent tires with be plenty to get through winter.

With that said, I just parked my RL the other day for the winter & I'm currently driving my TL for winter duties. We've had snow for the last few days & I haven't done much driving but I already miss SH-AWD. Confidence is an understatement.

rockstar143

iTrader: (6)

you feel less confident when not driving the shawd?

teh CL

iTrader: (1)

100%

The RL is a tank. Been through 2 winters driving around lowered (2.5"+ drop) & I can't recall 1 scenario where I was nervous at all, especially in turns. SHAWD all day.

rockstar143

iTrader: (6)

but like, your shoulders droop, you let your dates push you around and you have a general air of discontent with yourself?

teh CL

iTrader: (1)

I'd say just extra observant.

rockstar143

iTrader: (6)

you're a good man...don't you forget it!

Jackass

I just re-read my post and what I typed is not what I was thinking. It should have stated that I also chuckle when people say they MUST have it. Unless you are driving on snow packed or ice covered roads over 50% of the time, I would state that it isn't a MUST. If I lived in the mountains of Colorado, I would have AWD for sure. If I lived in Denver...meh...AWD would be nice, but good tires will probably be fine. There is nothing wrong with wanting AWD...just as long as you understand the limits of what it actually brings to the table.

6spd-GERCO

I like modern 4 channel ABS systems. Although for deep snow driving in the TL, I turn off the traction control because of the throttle cut if there is any tire spin and if the back end comes around the car fights you and uses the ABS to straighten itself out and reduce the slide. I tried the traction control on and off when doing some ice racing and with it off it's easier to drive, need to adjust the driving inputs to be earlier. Spinning tires isn't a bad thing when driving in deep snow.

Crazy lane changes and panic stops are largely avoidable, following to close, not having an out, going to fast for condition and/or not reading far ahead. Some stuff is completely unavoidable, like someone running a stop sign.

ABS is good at keeping you straight and helps you slow down but it doesn't help when your already side ways, then your along for the ride!

6spd-GERCO

When I saw this I thought about you guys talking about old cars in the snow.

Joecop67

😂

DMZ

My first car was a 1963 Buick Riviera (inherited) with the 401 V8. Now that was power, with 445 lb-ft of torque! And no problem going through snow thanks to it's limited slip differential, back then known as the positive traction differential, or posi-rear. My dad bought that car brand new, and part of me wishes it was still around today.

I used to laugh at everyone else slipping & sliding all over the place while I just chugged right along.
.
.

T Dunn

DMZ

Michelin Tyiz are like Starbucks coffee, overrated and overpriced !

Midnight Mystery

Dude, I'm sorry, but I finally got a set of Michelins on my Kia and damn, they make that fat pig handle like it's on rails, until the flex and body roll takes over! Best tires I've ever had!

horseshoez

iTrader: (2)

As with every major tire manufacturer, Michelin makes some good tires and some crap tires; bang for the buck, I agree with DMZ, as a general rule, Michelin tires are overpriced for any given level of performance and longevity.

Midnight Mystery

They were about $830 for the set, I think. 215 55/17 Premier H. I asked for V, oh well. They're broken in now, and stiffened up a bit!

horseshoez

iTrader: (2)

Like I said, over priced.