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Rear inside tire wear with stock tires, and suspension..:-(
So did anyone ever come up with a fix for rear alignment 06 with stock suspension and stock tire. I'm only getting about 3k-4k before I start showing rear inside wear and the noise to go with that
To start with, an alignment will work wonders. If you've had an alignment done recently, publish the final results so we can review.
3 set of (2) rear tires in the past 12k miles has me cautious of buying more tires without having answers about rear alignment. I just call my dealer and was told that only the toe could be adjusted on the rear. Is this true?
Even though you might think camber wears the inner edge, its actually caused by excessive toe combined with camber. Camber alone will not eat your tires prematurely. Especially if you enjoy making turns. Most performance cars have lots of negative camber nowadays (look at BMWs). I run 2* on the front of my Civic and have no abnormal tire wear on super soft Falken RT615s.
Part of the the problem could be that our rear suspension gains lots of toe-in as it goes through it's stroke. If people ride in the back a lot, or you carry lots of stuff in your trunk, the suspension will be lower and the tires will toe-in. This increases stability, but sacrifices tires. It's part of performance suspension.
In response to this problem, Acura actually updated the rear bump-stops to keep the rear end from squating so much when loaded. This helped a little, but cannot eliminate the issue.
Get the rear toe zeroed out and you will be good to go. If you always have stuff in your car, get the alignment done with the stuff inside.
Part of the the problem could be that our rear suspension gains lots of toe-in as it goes through it's stroke. .
You sure about this? Isn't inner wear from toe out? Reason I am saying this is mine wears on the inside and its toed near zero and I was pretty sure its because it toes out when it squats.
well documented problem with the 3rd gen tl, make sure your rear toe is set to 0.00 exactly or you will have excessive wear. camber under about 3 degrees wont do anything compared to what 0.1 degrees of toe can.
well documented problem with the 3rd gen tl, make sure your rear toe is set to 0.00 exactly or you will have excessive wear. camber under about 3 degrees wont do anything compared to what 0.1 degrees of toe can.
Yes but no one seems to know what direction toe goes for sure with a load .. And I'm going to find out in a week or so .
A good suspension is designed to toe-out as little as possible under every circumstance. Toe-out causes severe instability in the rear end. Honda puts a single large bushing in just the right place which causes the toe-in effect in nearly every circumstance (other than free rolling).....Especially when braking. The harder you brake, the more it will toe-in. Also, the more the suspension compresses, the more it will toe-in (hence the increased wear).
Here is a toe diagram for the 5-link Honda rear end based on wheel stroke and not dynamic load (compared to older trailing arm suspension):
Butt I did get 4 new tires.
Will get an alignment prior to mounting tomorrow morning.
Will post results.
Edit*
I am lightened about 60lbs and do not daily drive.
On the weekends, I put maybe 40 miles or less on her.
When I first got her, took her through some twisties and drove her pretty hard. This has been the only thing that has affected my tire wear.
I'm running Eagle GT's 235/45/17.
Tomorrow, Will be mounting Nitto NT05 255/40/17's with a Progress rear sway bar on stock suspension.
Last edited by justnspace; 04-02-2011 at 12:23 AM.
Butt I did get 4 new tires.
Will get an alignment prior to mounting tomorrow morning.
Will post results.
Edit*
I am lightened about 60lbs and do not daily drive.
On the weekends, I put maybe 40 miles or less on her.
When I first got her, took her through some twisties and drove her pretty hard. This has been the only thing that has affected my tire wear.
I'm running Eagle GT's 235/45/17.
Tomorrow, Will be mounting Nitto NT05 255/40/17's with a Progress rear sway bar on stock suspension.
A good suspension is designed to toe-out as little as possible under every circumstance. Toe-out causes severe instability in the rear end. Honda puts a single large bushing in just the right place which causes the toe-in effect in nearly every circumstance (other than free rolling).....Especially when braking. The harder you brake, the more it will toe-in. Also, the more the suspension compresses, the more it will toe-in (hence the increased wear).
Then the only thing I can see causing the inner wear on mine is an out of spec alignment machine.
Camber was set close to zero and toe was at close to zero yet getting inner tire wear on both rears. Lowered about an inch and have a camber kit installed. 36K miles.
So did anyone ever come up with a fix for rear alignment 06 with stock suspension and stock tire. I'm only getting about 3k-4k before I start showing rear inside wear and the noise to go with that
Originally Posted by DeMAN
3 set of (2) rear tires in the past 12k miles has me cautious of buying more tires without having answers about rear alignment. I just call my dealer and was told that only the toe could be adjusted on the rear. Is this true?
But you still haven't answered the question: What are your alignment settings? Have you even had the car's alignment checked?
You'll probably find that the rear camber is slightly out of spec to the negative side (i.e -1.6 to -2.0) with the toe also out of spec. The camber can't be adjusted (without installing a camber kit), nor does it need to be (probably). Just get the toe back in spec and you should be fine...
I think you'll find that even though the camber is out of spec, once the toe is brought back to spec, your wear will cease.
when my car was stock my tires lasted probably 55K miles which is good and they would have lasted longer but the inside tire wear is what ruined the tires first now being lowered tires even go faster
But you still haven't answered the question: What are your alignment settings? Have you even had the car's alignment checked?
You'll probably find that the rear camber is slightly out of spec to the negative side (i.e -1.6 to -2.0) with the toe also out of spec. The camber can't be adjusted (without installing a camber kit), nor does it need to be (probably). Just get the toe back in spec and you should be fine...
I think you'll find that even though the camber is out of spec, once the toe is brought back to spec, your wear will cease.
The alignment hasn't been checked in the last 6 mos, due to low mileage. I wouldn't think I have to have a alignment everytime I take the car out of the garage.
I will be taking it for an alignment in the next 2 two weeks. I got almost 60k miles without issues. Its had issues since installing other tires. I've had the car aligned several times since then. I have the Kumho ESTA's stock size tire (235/45/17) on my cars
The alignment hasn't been checked in the last 6 mos, due to low mileage. I wouldn't think I have to have a alignment everytime I take the car out of the garage.
I will be taking it for an alignment in the next 2 two weeks. I got almost 60k miles without issues. Its had issues since installing other tires. I've had the car aligned several times since then. I have the Kumho ESTA's stock size tire (235/45/17) on my cars
You are correct that for most, an alignment isn't necessary unless there is a suspension problem or needed after a collison, but always keep in mind, if the specs are set to the manufacturer's specifications, you won't have uneven tire wear. If you are using the same shop, go elsewhere.
I got 2007 MDX with inside rear tire wear. Stock wheels Hankook tire stock size. It is not the tires since I have bought them over the years. Had alignment cheked at Acura dealer said in spec both camber and toe. Camber was -1.2 and -.8 there is no adjustment spec is 0 to -1.3. Toe was -.3. Tires wore out to the steel belt on both side only ob the inner side about 1.5 inches in. The remainder still had 30% tread. Help? Should I go to another dealer or what is the answer.
Well if your numbers are correct, that's a shit load of rear toe out. Of course it destroyed your inner edges. Spec is 0* +/- 0.16* Total. There is no way -0.30 is within spec. If that number is correct, you should make that shop buy you new tires.
If you meant to say you had -0.03*, then I don't know what to tell you other than you probably have a worn bushings or something else is screwy making the alignment specs null & void.
BTW: A lot of people on the Pilot forums (Piloteers.org) are complaining about inner edge wear. Some swear up and down that adding rear camber kits and setting them to zero has fixed the issue. Maybe consider this on your MDX. Here are the specs for the Pilot. Should be same for MDX.
PS: Camber won't wear tires if your toe is set correctly. I run -2.25* on the front of my Civic. Tires last full lifetime.
I bought a set of fully adjustable rear camber arms from Eibach. I was getting road noise with about 15k miles on new tires. But they were on it when i bought the car & never thought of getting it aligned correctly. Think I payed around 100 bucks for both from a wholesale website
I need to look at my last alignment readings. I remember the guy telling me he adjusted the toe on mine to help my tires wear more evenly but not knowing much about alignment settings I just trusted him. That was two years ago and I think the inside of my tires wear the same...
Camber is what causes the tire to wear on one edge. Toe will accelerate that wear. The head mechanic at the Acura dealer told me that every one of these cars is going to wear the inside edge quicker than the rest of the tire, always. If camber was at 0, too much toe would wear the whole tire quicker, not just the edge. I understand that negative toe will possibly wear the leading edge a little more even without camber.
I'll probably get the adjustable arms eventually and set camber closer to zero just to prove it to myself. I think mine is around 1.6-1.7 degrees right now.
Mine wears the inside of the tires worse in straight line freeway driving. When I drive it hard around town, the tires wear more evenly.
The range is +/-0.16 total toe in. Not each tire. If you have 0.10 toe-in on one tire and 0.10 toe-in on the other, you have 0.20 total toe-in. That is too much. It's supposed to be under 0.16 total toe-in. I would shoot for a tiny bit of total toe in. Perhaps like 0.00-to-0.08. That's total, not each. And avoid toe-out, and rotate your tires more often.
You also seem to have a lot of camber in the rear. What's up with that? What's the "normal" range for the TL's rear camber?
The range is +/-0.16 total toe in. Not each tire. If you have 0.10 toe-in on one tire and 0.10 toe-in on the other, you have 0.20 total toe-in. That is too much. It's supposed to be under 0.16 total toe-in. I would shoot for a tiny bit of total toe in. Perhaps like 0.00-to-0.08. That's total, not each. And avoid toe-out, and rotate your tires more often.
You also seem to have a lot of camber in the rear. What's up with that? What's the "normal" range for the TL's rear camber?
Guess it would be dependent up the measurement, is it stated in degrees or numerical? Even if degrees, the front toe is -0.15/0.15 degrees, not rear, as the rear should be 0.00/0.30 degrees.
TL rear camber -0.5/-1.5 degrees.
The range is +/-0.16 total toe in. Not each tire. If you have 0.10 toe-in on one tire and 0.10 toe-in on the other, you have 0.20 total toe-in. That is too much. It's supposed to be under 0.16 total toe-in. I would shoot for a tiny bit of total toe in. Perhaps like 0.00-to-0.08. That's total, not each. And avoid toe-out, and rotate your tires more often.
You also seem to have a lot of camber in the rear. What's up with that? What's the "normal" range for the TL's rear camber?
Increased negative camber due to my suspension? H&R sport coils + A-Spec shocks.
The values I posted above were in degrees.
Thanks - I'll take it in to have it adjusted closer to zero.
Guess it would be dependent up the measurement, is it stated in degrees or numerical? Even if degrees, the front toe is -0.15/0.15 degrees, not rear, as the rear should be 0.00/0.30 degrees.
TL rear camber -0.5/-1.5 degrees.
Yes that would be degrees. And your using the old specs, not the current ones. Acura revised the specs in 2005 due to the rear tire-wear problem. Both front & rear are now 0.00* +/- 0.16* Total. But you still want to avoid any toe-out in the rear cause it makes the car feel more unstable.
If you want the specs in millimeters, it's 0mm +/- 2mm Total.
BTW: You can get away with a little excess camber from lowering, IF you corner a little more aggressively. It all depends on your driving style. And don't forget to rotate your tires.
Yes that would be degrees. And your using the old specs, not the current ones. Acura revised the specs in 2005 due to the rear tire-wear problem. Both front & rear are now 0.00* +/- 0.16* Total. But you still want to avoid any toe-out in the rear cause it makes the car feel more unstable.
If you want the specs in millimeters, it's 0mm +/- 2mm Total.
BTW: You can get away with a little excess camber from lowering, IF you corner a little more aggressively. It all depends on your driving style. And don't forget to rotate your tires.
From what I can see, the old toe specs were:
F 0 +/- 2mm
R Toe In 2mm +/-2mm
Then there was a TSB for the '04 Sport Suspension that changed the camber setting slightly but the toe F/R remained the same as above.
Then came the TSB's for inside wear of the BS tires on '04/'05 models, added new bump stops and the rear toe setting changed:
Both 1/19/06 and 12/19/07:
F 0 +/- 2mm
R 0 +/- 2mm
So, as you stated, the front and rear can be toed in or out and still be in spec, but the local Acura dealer has the setting front as stated, but the rear 0 minimum to avoid the uneven wear, no problems with tire wear or handling. Personally don't believe anyone would recognize a toe change from min spec to maximum spec as long as the tires don't wear prematurely.
By the way, thanks for all the in depth info, certainly enjoy the reading and quite educational.
Posting my alignment results, pretty sure I bought a once lowered TL, I am wondering if the warranty I purchased will cover the correction....anyone tell me what will need to be replaced? Thanks
That to me looks like the front subframe is shifted toward the drivers side. Positive camber on one side and negative camber on the other. The uneven caster looks like it may even be rotated slightly clockwise when viewed from above. To me it sounds like the previous driver probably slid into a curb. This MIGHT be adjusted to even it out slightly by loosening all the subframe bolts and giving it a shift. This would be tricky in the front as I believe the entire motor/transmission assembly is connected to the front subframe. If there is actual damage to the subframe or chassis, then this won't work.
For the rear I suppose a shifted rear subframe could cause those results. But I'm going to wager it's more of a worn bushing problem. Since that would most likely require new upper arms, you may consider getting camber adjusting ones instead. Then the alignment tech can get the rear camber into spec weather the subframe is shifted or not. Personally I would still try to shift the subframe 1st, but that's because I would be doing the work myself. Might not be worth paying to have someone try it.
They should use + or - in degrees. Not a whole number like millimeters. crazy
thanks
Originally Posted by Turbonut
From what I can see, the old toe specs were:
F 0 +/- 2mm
R Toe In 2mm +/-2mm
Then there was a TSB for the '04 Sport Suspension that changed the camber setting slightly but the toe F/R remained the same as above.
Then came the TSB's for inside wear of the BS tires on '04/'05 models, added new bump stops and the rear toe setting changed:
Both 1/19/06 and 12/19/07:
F 0 +/- 2mm
R 0 +/- 2mm
So, as you stated, the front and rear can be toed in or out and still be in spec, but the local Acura dealer has the setting front as stated, but the rear 0 minimum to avoid the uneven wear, no problems with tire wear or handling. Personally don't believe anyone would recognize a toe change from min spec to maximum spec as long as the tires don't wear prematurely.
By the way, thanks for all the in depth info, certainly enjoy the reading and quite educational.
Ok thanks. I didn't know they would update it. That's good for me because i just set it to right at zero. But I must say that on these TL's, if you do a home alignment, you have to do the rear first. Because if the average toe on the rear is off just a tiny bit, it will throw off your steering wheel without any changes on the front. And I am glad to say that using a thin fishing string is much more accurate than a 1/4" rope to use as a straight line. Long story... But I have mine set more accurate than 2 alignment shops that I have been to.
I used a tablet that has a LEVEL app for camber. That was easy. And I measured the distance between the two rear tires and the distance between the two front tires and they are nearly the same if not exactly the same. So I used the front tires as a guide or a straight line for the rear tires and after all it makes sense that the rear tires must follow the front tires exactly otherwise the rear end as a whole will not track straight while driving down the road. So I just use fishing wire tied to the front tire and ran it to the backside of the rear tire and then observed for any gaps between the fishing wire and the front side of the rear tire and presently it is roughly the same so it's straight like is 0 mm. At least it is so close to zero that a thin rope was too fat to measure it. Plus the thin rope has little hairs on it that stick out.. So fishing wire was better to use because it is micro thin and no fraying. So it's like REALLY smack on zero. Even my adjusting bolts under the car match the rotational position as I observed the lobes on the bolt, comparing left and right. As soon as I fixed that rear toe my steering wheel went straight on nearly dead flat straight up zero. The car even bounced more even. Haha if that makes sense.
Also using fishing wire, I could get it tighter and it doesnt bounce around as much as a rope. So, its more accurate for me anyway..
Here is a good example of why you have to adjust the rear toe first. If the average rear toe is not straight with the car, then the front tires have to compensate for it by turning the same direction.. Even if the front toe is perfect and properly aligned, if the rear is angled, the front will have to compensate for it. And thereby throwing off your steering wheel.
Ive lowered my TL about 2 inches, and it scary as fuck driving in the rain, I think its a combination of bad alignment that cause bad tires and having some load at the rear. First time experiencing this feeling almost like hydroplaning but the rear is like swinging from side to side. And its not even a large puddle just a little water makes it crazy.
Update: Brought some SPC Rear Toe Arm and going to install tomorrow, and then going to the alignment shop soon after to check my alignment. Might as well get 2 new rear tires. Fucking hell its not worth it dropping a 3G TL.
04-01-2011, 11:20 AM
