I hate cars

I meant the swaybar. If the car is already understeering, making the rear swaybar softer will make it worse.

Like MrHeeltoe said, try softening the shocks first but it's doubtful they could make enough difference. For what it's worth, I've found the best handling with the front Konis .5 turns from full soft but that's with the a-spec springs which are just a touch stiffer than stock.

Most of the aftermarket spring/shock kits are untested for performance use. They satisfy the needs of the majority of the members needs here which is a nice drop. I've never seen a performance write up with an aftermarket combo other than the subjective feelings that most post without ever taking it to the limit.

Not saying the Neuspeed kit is crap but with the stock auto front bar and the Progress rear in firm, the spring rates would have to be waaay off front to rear to produce the understeer you're talking about.

deygotbigga

I have an 05 AT with the H&R front (28mm) and rear (22mm) sway bars I have it on the street setting (considering going with the track setting) and the car is on rails. But I have H-tech springs and that dropped the car 1-1/2" and I drive in NY a lot so I want to go either a-spec or type-s suspension instead. Which setup do you think is better tuned for handling with my sway bars?

I hate cars

A-spec hands down.

You're the only person I've ever seen with the H&R front bar. Mine is in the mail and I can't wait to get it installed. Did you do each component separately or all at the same time? If separately, I was wondering what kind of difference the H&R bar made.

jnice

iTrader: (1)

I have a 04 base Tl and my wife is also a nag when it comes to me lowering my car cause it usually ends up being aharsh ride but this setup I got now is the best I ever had better then tien ss nice an low but feels like stock handling is amazing and my wife loves it we r both happy.



Tanabe df210 - 1.6in front 1.4in rear
KYb gr2 struts
Comptech rsb - 22mm
Type s fab - 27mm
Rv6-p front strutbar

jnice

iTrader: (1)

Spc front and rear camber kits
Alignment is perfect ride is slightly stiffer but still feels great handling is amazing I hug up the turns like my boys m3 the stance Is low and very aggressive and my wife does not complain at all rear does not feel like it's all over the place I'm 100% satified u get what u pay for if u wanna be cheap and cut corners expect the worst

deygotbigga

Body roll is to a minimum and I was considering the Prog. RSB but 24mm is a little to much for the rear. The 22mm H&R bars work fine and yes they where installed at the same time. It just so happened when I tested the car a BMW 330i (look likehe had coilovers) was in front of me, we went 120 in a 50 zone and body roll was fine but the suspension travel sucked so I slowed down, the car started floating. After I get this A-spec suspension Iwill be a problem with cornering. The TL handles excellent for a front wheel drive car.

I hate cars

I think you're on the right track. Keep as much suspension travel as possible. If you haven't already, cut the bumpstops in half when you do the a-spec. That extra travel will save your life when you're in a hard corner and hit an unexpected bump.

I hate cars

I don't like the springs that lower the car with pretty much a stock spring rate. You need more spring as the car goes lower to keep it off the bumpstops. What may feel like great handling on moderate curves may let you down when you get near or past the limit.

Saying you hug the turns like your boys M3 doesn't mean anything. It sounds like you've never actually taken it to the limit or run tests to see how it really handles. I'm sure it "feels" like it handles good. My new setup feels awesome but as soon as I took it to the limit yesterday I was let down by all of the understeer. Got to go back and start tuning it to get it balanced again.

ktran3991

Did you get cheap lowering springs? How old of a car was it? Nowadays with these new cars putting in lowering springs will make the care ride even better.
It all depends on the kind of spring you buy, "race" "sport" "luxery". Tein makes H tech spriings made to improve handeling with a slight drop AND keep a comfortable ride as well. Eibach Prokit is a perfect example of a "better than stock" ride for TLs. I know by experience. You shouldn't cross out lowering springs just because another ride felt rough. Maybe it was the incorrect spring for your driving style.

As for rear sway bar, go ahead an get the H&R

I hate cars

Again, softer than stock springs at a lower ride height is bad for performance.

ktran3991

I never said anything about stock springs. i dont think the OP is tracking his car to even push it to the limit, so it doesnt matter about outstanding performance, just what is good for the streets.

I hate cars

And the streets are where you don't want to be lowered and have softer (better ride quality) than stock springs. It's bad for cornering especially on the street and on the track too.

It puts you closer and more likely to hit the bumpstops which is a bad thing especially if you're in the middle of a hard corner.

If you want the springs just for the looks then fine, but don't spread bad information, saying they perform better than stock.

I think the OP will be satisfied with the RSB upgrade and the little to no ride quality penalty.

ktran3991

Please tell me what springs you are talking about that are softer than stock rates?

I hate cars

Whichever ones have a "better than stock ride".

They *may* be progressive but that doesn't help a whole lot when you're an inch or two from the bumpstop.

kyle26

iTrader: (1)

[quote=I hate cars;11039530]I think you're on the right track. Keep as much suspension travel as possible. If you haven't already, cut the bumpstops in half when you do the a-spec. That extra travel will save your life when you're in a hard corner and hit an unexpected bump.[/quote

If I have the A spec springs and Koni shocks should I still cut the bumps stops in half and if so why? I drive on the street and not the track. Thanks for all your help

MrHeeltoe

iTrader: (1)

[QUOTE=kyle26;11041141]The OEM bump stops should have been removed when the konis were installed. The bump stop for the yellows is that supplied white plastic thing. The Konis offer increased travel because of this, even though the cases are not much shorter than stock.

I hate cars

[quote=MrHeeltoe;11043795]Just the white thing? That looks like it might protect the shock but it wouldn't do much to cushion the blow. Makes me feel better about cutting my bumpstops though. I had debated it for a while but if they work with no bumpstop, I feel better.

kyle26

iTrader: (1)

I have the Neuspeed Supercup Kit and they say to use your stock bump stops and do not come with any aftermarket bumpstops. Why would anyone want to cut the bumpstops if it directly says not to?

I hate cars

That's what I'm wondering. That white thing is a hard piece of plastic, maybe 5/16" thick, it would seem like you could damage the shock or suspension if you ever bottomed out on it.

I cut the stops in half because it's reasonable. It's still enough cushion for a hard impact but gives you a little extra travel before contacting. The way they're made, they look like the top is softer and bottom firmer so I cut the top obviously.

MrHeeltoe

iTrader: (1)

The koni instructions have an exploded diagram and they specifically show the shocks without the bump stop. I thought the same thing before but then I realized that the Koni design is a bit of a departure from the stock setup. The white thing actually has a gap between where it sits and the top of the body. The flat washer that would be hitting it is also oversized. I got the impression I wouldn't need the bump stops fromt he factory shocks. The ID on the hole is too small anyway.


as far as using the top or bottom of the bump stock we have always heard that when reducing the height of the rubber stopper you should keep the firmer side there. The softer side could over-compress and reduce the effectiveness. Just what we've always done.

melvin2816

iTrader: (4)

I installed the Progress RSB Yesterday and its a big difference is in the soft position and it feels great.
I wish I had done this MOD earlier

kyle26

iTrader: (1)

What is the best perch level for A spec springs with Koni 5 way shocks so there is a 2 finger gap and how firm of a ride do you have it set at I hate cars?

ChowHed

You guys are telling me if I get aftermarket coilover setup and wider tires i will still fill a major difference in turning situtaions(benefits) with a rear sway bar as well. im in the market but i saw the threads with the problems of the supposed comptech sway bar and rear subframe issue. now im second guessing... advice from those that have done all three and possibly installed upgrades at different times to see the tangible differences??

I hate cars

Tires will give you the biggest performance increase period. However you won't feel a difference until you take it to the limit.

Coilovers/springs and shocks will make it feel like it handles better and may actually make it handle better but you have to watch it. It seems a lot of these kits are for looks and tend to make the car understeer more than stock.

The RSB takes most or all of the understeer out. However, if you have an 04-06 auto TL your car will be tail happy with just the 24mm swaybar.

In the end it's all about balance. Do one mod at a time and drive it for at least a month before doing another. I had the car set up nice and balanced with a hint of oversteer. It had a little too much bodyroll so I installed the H&R front swaybar. Now it understeers and I'm gradually bringing the balance back toward neutral.

A good setup as far as balance and ride vs performance gained is what I have, a-spec springs, Koni shocks, Progress rear bar in the firm position and H&R front bar in the soft. This will put you very close to a track ready setup out of the box.

Etohprn247

iTrader: (6)

This is great info thanks, berry smart dude! Could be nice'r if this guy is my neighbor. hehehe

I hate cars

I forgot about that post... It's doing pretty much what I predicted. Getting ready to set the rear to stiff because the car is understeering with the addition of the big front bar. Even so, I highly recommend doing both front and rear swaybar. It's a night and day difference. The car takes a set so much quicker now and it's more precise. As for all out cornering grip I'll have to wait until I get the handling balance back but the dynamics have improved. Right now it may have improved but it's not much. After I set the rear a little firmer I have a feeling it's going to corner very well.

x2thez325

I hate cars - It seems that you have plenty of knowledge about suspension, so I want to ask you 2 questions.

1. I have an 08' Type S with stock suspension, and as of right now, I plan on staying stock. I am def interested in a RSB, and maybe a FSB. Do you think I should invest in both? or will just the RSB really make a difference? What kind would you recommend and what setting?

2. With the swaybars, would you recommend getting the car re-aligned with different specs?

I hate cars

No need to change the alignment.

The RSB will make a nice difference. Since you already have the good solid 27mm front bar on the TL-S it should be nicely balanced with just the aftermarket RSB.

I wish someone would try a larger front bar like the H&R on the TL-S just to see if the 1mm and better metal make a noticable difference or not. IMO, it's probably not worth it but hard to say for sure.

CdTriX

does anyone have any experiance with snow and rsb?

i'll be driving this thing in the winter and wondering if the 24mm progressive is too oversteer happy in the soft setting for my 5AT in bad condition.

i'm thinking of getting the 22mm comptech because it's not as aggressive. i do want to autocross my car so i definately want a rsb

I hate cars

I don't have experience in the snow, but the 24mm bar even in the soft setting coupled with the stock auto 25mm front bar induced massive oversteer. I would assume it's the same on the snow, with the limits being reduced.

If you think about it, a 24mm solid rear bar is the same or stiffer than the 25mm hollow front bar. Having a rear bar with more stiffness than the front is unheard of, at least in my experience.

IMO, if you have no intention of upgrading the front bar I would go with a 22mm RSB. If you're going to autocross the car, a slight tailhappiness is not a bad thing. If you're looking for high speed stability I would do front and rear.

MrHeeltoe

iTrader: (1)

As we discussed in emails the 24mm on the softer setting is going to be little or no more aggressive than the 22mm bar. If you'd go with a 22, I'd say a 24 with the softer adjustment should be a completely viable, and less costly, option for you! You will appreciate the adjustment when you do go auto-x as well!

MrHeeltoe

iTrader: (1)

I hope we are not confusing oversteer with throttle-lift oversteer....just about any FWD car will oversteer if you lift when the car is heavily loaded. I'd certainly by no means expect the rear to come out on the car in the winter, if the driver is "winter-driving", which is to say driving in such as manner as to avoid oversteer (i.e., slow in corners, no trail braking lol)...Somehow I doubt that on a skidpad the car will do anything but understeer when it reaches its limit with throttle consistently applied (no lift) with a 24mm bar, even on the stiffer setting. An I wrong?

Your reference to front and rear bar bias is a little questionable here. We are not bringing situational driving practices into account. Let's not assume he'll be driving like he's in an auto-x in the snow.


BTW, I saw you at the acurafest and really wanted to speak w you! Sorry I missed the chance!

Marcus

I hate cars

Me too. I was on my way to talk to you several times and ended up getting distracted every time. I was behind you as you made the right turn off the freeway and onto a surface street in the double right lane. You took it pretty quick and I meant to ask you the whole time if you had any of your products on the van. It looked like it leaned a little less than normal.

I've meant to say thanks for donating the prizes.....even though I didn't win anything.

The oversteer I'm talking about is steady state with the foot already off the throttle but not transitional lift throttle oversteer.

With a small amount of throttle around a corner mine would either barely oversteer or it was completely neutral with the bar on the soft setting and stock FSB.

You are right about the tail coming out from lift throttle in stock form.

I'm thinking of the average driver that gets scared mid turn and backs off the throttle abruptly and causes a spin.

Personally I'm very comfortable with the car going sideways and I prefer a little oversteer. With the stock setup, this bar on the soft setting had just a little too much oversteer to the point it would hinder track times a little. Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't say it's unbalanced and to find the limit, you have to really push the car. It's far from unsafe, I don't want anyone to think that.

What I've noticed is that some aftermarket springs seem to increase the understeer tendency so I'm sure this bar would be perfect for those setups.

If I had it to do over again and I was only allowed one mod, it would definately be the RSB. I think this bar would be even better for a manual TL and for a Type S. To tell you the truth, I'm having a hard time getting the understeer out of it since the addition of the H&R front bar. The fun factor has definately been reduced.

One thing people should take from my posts is that I'm a perfectionist or maybe just OCD when it comes to cars. I complain about little things that others may not notice, my girlfriend reminds me of that all the time. The bar will be fine on a stock auto trans car but it obviously will make it more likely to oversteer.

CdTriX

i think i'll go with the 24mm progressive,

i could if i want upgrade to the type S front swaybar which is 27mm solid bar from what i remember in this thread?

after that, i'll probably get aspec spring/struts

there isn't a lot of suspension talk on this forum for some strange reason... everyone talks about rims...

I hate cars

I think that would be an awesome combo right there.

As it is right now with the 24mm rear bar and 28mm H&R front, I'm having a hard time getting the understeer out of it. In hindsight, the Type S 27mm bar would be perfect. I'm in the process of adding some more stiffness to the rear springs to balance it.

CdTriX

i would need to drop the subframe to replace the front sway bar correct?

I want to diy but i'm terrible with my hands. my dad that use to be a mechanic and a family friend that is a mechanic right now will be helping me with these installs. the RSB doesn't look like a terribly hard thing to do.

i'll probably look into the 27mm solid type S front sway bar next year and see how i like the 25 mm hollow with the 24 mm rear in soft. probably do the type S front bar in spring so i can get ready for autocrossing...

has anyone autocrossed their TL yet? it's big and heavy and i don't think i'll be competing hardcore with the others but it'll be fun and it wont ruin the car that much i hope

I hate cars

Michael Benz on here took first place for an enitre season in his region in autocross.

His setup was a-spec springs and shocks and a 22mm rear bar. I believe he got the bar before the Progress one was offered but I'm not sure about that. His was also an auto with a supercharger. I was always amazed at how stock his car was suspension wise.

From the people I've talked to that autocross, you want the car just a little tailhappy since most of the turns are low speed tight turns and it helps that the tail rotates easy, especially being FWD. It's a tradeoff, high speed handling and stability may be lessened with the auto-x setup but you may like it too.

MrHeeltoe

iTrader: (1)

The stiffness setting for the best handling is going to depend on the ride height, the springs you are using, and the conditions of your roads. I know that's a vague answer but in a shotgun that's the best I got.

Dimensions

This thread has been very informative. I have a question for clarification.

I want an overrall better handling ride and I'm not looking to do autocross.

I think I like the idea of the Type-S solid front sway bar and the 24mm RSB.

If I replace both bars, would I still need to get a reinforcement kit or will I be okay because of the larger FSB. I have 06 TL A/T.

Would you all recommend this as a good way to spice up a daily driver?

I also plan on getting the A-Spec suspension kit at some point in the near future.

I hate cars

I put my RSB in the firm position a couple months ago when I installed the large FSB. So far so good. I think anything that takes some of the stress off the rear bar will lessen the need for reinforcement somewhat. Stiffer rear springs will help the most. Keep in mind a swaybar is a torsional spring so by adding stiffer rear springs you're taking some of the load off of the swaybar.

Cornering puts some load on the RSB but taking driveways at an angle will put the same or more stress than maximum cornering. Adjusting your driving style *should* eliminate the need for reinforcements.

I think A-spec, Type S FSB and Progress RSB is the ultimate street suspension setup. It rides nearly as good as stock and offers a substantial performance increase.

Also, the H&R FSB seems stiffer than it's 28mm would suggest. I just added about 20% more stiffness to the rear A-spec springs today and it's coming together nicely.