Has anybody fixed the whole floating bumpy ride with their TL's?
10-20-2013, 12:18 AM
#41
Team Owner
I agree with all of that.
I remember when the LT1 first came out I thought it was so cool. Then the LS1 came out and it was deceiving. The LT1 always felt faster to me but the LS1 never felt as quick as it was, probably due to the more linear powerband. For what it's worth I think the LT1 with its traditional firing order sounds more aggressive than the LS1 no matter what the exhaust.
If you want a secret to making the TL handle and great high speed stability and cornering, it's a good front spring like aspec, the stiff H&R FSB and very stuff rear springs, near the same rate as the fronts. You need adjustable shocks because no off the shelf fixed rate shock will have the right damping. This gives a well balanced handling between under and oversteer. More importantly it's a combo that will make the car very stable and hard to upset no matter what conditions are. It can be high speed or rough roads or auto-x, it's hard to upset the handling and find a weakness.
I remember when the LT1 first came out I thought it was so cool. Then the LS1 came out and it was deceiving. The LT1 always felt faster to me but the LS1 never felt as quick as it was, probably due to the more linear powerband. For what it's worth I think the LT1 with its traditional firing order sounds more aggressive than the LS1 no matter what the exhaust.
If you want a secret to making the TL handle and great high speed stability and cornering, it's a good front spring like aspec, the stiff H&R FSB and very stuff rear springs, near the same rate as the fronts. You need adjustable shocks because no off the shelf fixed rate shock will have the right damping. This gives a well balanced handling between under and oversteer. More importantly it's a combo that will make the car very stable and hard to upset no matter what conditions are. It can be high speed or rough roads or auto-x, it's hard to upset the handling and find a weakness.
10-20-2013, 08:50 PM
#42
Ok so I got so far that toe in the front has to be 0. What about for the rear? Someone also told me the same thing .... that toe in the front can be set a little negative so that at speed it will toe out to 0 for more stability.
All I know is that on stock suspension my camber was out of spec ... too negative and couldn't be put back into spec. I repaced the upper control arms and lower control arms still no go. I'm not sure if its the subframe at this point, or maybe the control arms aren't installed properly.
All I know is that on stock suspension my camber was out of spec ... too negative and couldn't be put back into spec. I repaced the upper control arms and lower control arms still no go. I'm not sure if its the subframe at this point, or maybe the control arms aren't installed properly.
10-22-2013, 09:41 PM
#44
Drifting
basically either shocks or alignment or both.
10-22-2013, 11:10 PM
#45
the overexplainer
I've also heard that theory of setting toe to compensate for potential slack when the car is in motion.
However, for a FWD car, i would not set the toe with a negative bias because under power, in theory wouldnt the suspension be pulled inward? Since the front tires will be pulling the car and they would naturally want to rotate around where they would be mounted, so in theory a positive bias toe would be "better". Setting a negative toe would only make even more negative toe under power. Just a theory. For a RWD car on the other hand, a negative toe would make sense because when the car rolls the front wheels would be pushed back (rather than actively pull towards the front of the car).
Anyways, zero it out as much as possible both front and rear.
However, for a FWD car, i would not set the toe with a negative bias because under power, in theory wouldnt the suspension be pulled inward? Since the front tires will be pulling the car and they would naturally want to rotate around where they would be mounted, so in theory a positive bias toe would be "better". Setting a negative toe would only make even more negative toe under power. Just a theory. For a RWD car on the other hand, a negative toe would make sense because when the car rolls the front wheels would be pushed back (rather than actively pull towards the front of the car).
Anyways, zero it out as much as possible both front and rear.
Last edited by ez12a; 10-22-2013 at 11:18 PM.
10-23-2013, 08:12 AM
#46
Team Owner
I've also heard that theory of setting toe to compensate for potential slack when the car is in motion.
However, for a FWD car, i would not set the toe with a negative bias because under power, in theory wouldnt the suspension be pulled inward? Since the front tires will be pulling the car and they would naturally want to rotate around where they would be mounted, so in theory a positive bias toe would be "better". Setting a negative toe would only make even more negative toe under power. Just a theory. For a RWD car on the other hand, a negative toe would make sense because when the car rolls the front wheels would be pushed back (rather than actively pull towards the front of the car).
Anyways, zero it out as much as possible both front and rear.
However, for a FWD car, i would not set the toe with a negative bias because under power, in theory wouldnt the suspension be pulled inward? Since the front tires will be pulling the car and they would naturally want to rotate around where they would be mounted, so in theory a positive bias toe would be "better". Setting a negative toe would only make even more negative toe under power. Just a theory. For a RWD car on the other hand, a negative toe would make sense because when the car rolls the front wheels would be pushed back (rather than actively pull towards the front of the car).
Anyways, zero it out as much as possible both front and rear.
10-24-2013, 12:36 PM
#47
Here is the story of Honda's 5-link rear suspension:
http://world.honda.com/news/1997/t970702b.html
The 3G TL was original launched with a rear toe setting of +2mm +/- 2mm That meant anywhere from 0 rear toe to 4mm of rear toe-in. After some people started experiencing excessive rear tire wear from diving with the back of the car loaded, Honda revised the setting to be 0mm +/- 2mm (that means 2mm toe in to 2mm toe out). They also added stiffer rear bump stops to reduce the sag in the rear from loading.
This means your car toes-in when the rear is loaded. Toe-in in the rear helps to stabilize the back of the car. In contrast, any toe-out will help the back end to be loose and wandery. If you want the car to run stable, have the rear toe adjusted to somwhere between zero and max toe-in. Remember, when your car 1st came out, +2mm toe-in was the "normal" setting. It's what the entire suspension system was designed for. More toe-in = more stability.
I run mine at just a hair over zero (~+0.2mm). When I originally checked my alignment, the rears had made their way to some considerable toe-out. Fixing it made that loose rear feeling at speed go away completely. Now the hard part is finding a reputable tire shop. I gave up and started doing my own alignments. :S
http://world.honda.com/news/1997/t970702b.html
The 3G TL was original launched with a rear toe setting of +2mm +/- 2mm That meant anywhere from 0 rear toe to 4mm of rear toe-in. After some people started experiencing excessive rear tire wear from diving with the back of the car loaded, Honda revised the setting to be 0mm +/- 2mm (that means 2mm toe in to 2mm toe out). They also added stiffer rear bump stops to reduce the sag in the rear from loading.
This means your car toes-in when the rear is loaded. Toe-in in the rear helps to stabilize the back of the car. In contrast, any toe-out will help the back end to be loose and wandery. If you want the car to run stable, have the rear toe adjusted to somwhere between zero and max toe-in. Remember, when your car 1st came out, +2mm toe-in was the "normal" setting. It's what the entire suspension system was designed for. More toe-in = more stability.
I run mine at just a hair over zero (~+0.2mm). When I originally checked my alignment, the rears had made their way to some considerable toe-out. Fixing it made that loose rear feeling at speed go away completely. Now the hard part is finding a reputable tire shop. I gave up and started doing my own alignments. :S
Last edited by 94eg!; 10-24-2013 at 12:44 PM.
10-24-2013, 01:07 PM
#48
Drifting
Ya, I can attest to it feeling almost completely stabile with some added weight in the rear. I think i may need a complete 4 wheel alignment. I wonder how much more instability can be atttributed to a front AND a rear misalignment? Probably exponential. I will check the alignment at some point. I may get new springs before I align it. I like the profile of the s-tech springs but they dont have much of a spring rate. Kinda worried about that.
10-24-2013, 01:31 PM
#49
Team Owner
Here is the story of Honda's 5-link rear suspension:
http://world.honda.com/news/1997/t970702b.html
The 3G TL was original launched with a rear toe setting of +2mm +/- 2mm That meant anywhere from 0 rear toe to 4mm of rear toe-in. After some people started experiencing excessive rear tire wear from diving with the back of the car loaded, Honda revised the setting to be 0mm +/- 2mm (that means 2mm toe in to 2mm toe out). They also added stiffer rear bump stops to reduce the sag in the rear from loading.
This means your car toes-in when the rear is loaded. Toe-in in the rear helps to stabilize the back of the car. In contrast, any toe-out will help the back end to be loose and wandery. If you want the car to run stable, have the rear toe adjusted to somwhere between zero and max toe-in. Remember, when your car 1st came out, +2mm toe-in was the "normal" setting. It's what the entire suspension system was designed for. More toe-in = more stability.
I run mine at just a hair over zero (~+0.2mm). When I originally checked my alignment, the rears had made their way to some considerable toe-out. Fixing it made that loose rear feeling at speed go away completely. Now the hard part is finding a reputable tire shop. I gave up and started doing my own alignments. :S
http://world.honda.com/news/1997/t970702b.html
The 3G TL was original launched with a rear toe setting of +2mm +/- 2mm That meant anywhere from 0 rear toe to 4mm of rear toe-in. After some people started experiencing excessive rear tire wear from diving with the back of the car loaded, Honda revised the setting to be 0mm +/- 2mm (that means 2mm toe in to 2mm toe out). They also added stiffer rear bump stops to reduce the sag in the rear from loading.
This means your car toes-in when the rear is loaded. Toe-in in the rear helps to stabilize the back of the car. In contrast, any toe-out will help the back end to be loose and wandery. If you want the car to run stable, have the rear toe adjusted to somwhere between zero and max toe-in. Remember, when your car 1st came out, +2mm toe-in was the "normal" setting. It's what the entire suspension system was designed for. More toe-in = more stability.
I run mine at just a hair over zero (~+0.2mm). When I originally checked my alignment, the rears had made their way to some considerable toe-out. Fixing it made that loose rear feeling at speed go away completely. Now the hard part is finding a reputable tire shop. I gave up and started doing my own alignments. :S
10-24-2013, 02:20 PM
#50
I seriously believe they don't calibrate their machines regularly. Or maybe they don't know how to use them.
The key to doing it yourself is building a procedure and following it every time...
- Park on good level surface
- Air up tires to factory specs
- Place magazine just in front of each tire (act as slip plates)
- Gently drive car forward onto magazines (don't use e-brake)
- Center steering wheel (eyeball it with dashboard lines)
- Place bubble level on steering wheel with bubble in dead center (DO NOT BUMP THE LEVEL)
- Get out and install steering wheel holder (SG 66400 $35)
- Run fishing line from jackstand to jackstand down one side of car
- Adjust string offset from center caps to compensate for track width until perfect
- Check steering wheel bubble level is still perfectly centered
- If not, re center the wheel and re-do your adjustment (NEVER touch the level)
- Check/adjust rear
- Double check front & rear
- Move string to other side
- Check/adjust front
- Check steering wheel bubble level is still perfectly centered
- If not, re center the wheel and re-do your adjustment (NEVER touch the level)
- Check/adjust rear
- Double check front & rear
For measuring I use a metal 0.5mm precision scale. I also place a cheap bubble level on it when taking measurements. You want to make measurements with the scale as level as possible (for greater accuracy). I even cut the end of the scale to point so the measuring edge is only part touching the rim. I put some rubber cement over the top to keep it scratching the wheel. With this technique I'm confident I can get to a 0.1mm accuracy per wheel (0.2mm total toe).
1 of these (cut off corner and glue tip for no scratches):
2 of these:
1 of these (0.2mm diameter):
This thing helps a bit but isn't perfect at stopping feedback. ALWAYS double check your bubble level on the steering wheel:
The key to doing it yourself is building a procedure and following it every time...
- Park on good level surface
- Air up tires to factory specs
- Place magazine just in front of each tire (act as slip plates)
- Gently drive car forward onto magazines (don't use e-brake)
- Center steering wheel (eyeball it with dashboard lines)
- Place bubble level on steering wheel with bubble in dead center (DO NOT BUMP THE LEVEL)
- Get out and install steering wheel holder (SG 66400 $35)
- Run fishing line from jackstand to jackstand down one side of car
- Adjust string offset from center caps to compensate for track width until perfect
- Check steering wheel bubble level is still perfectly centered
- If not, re center the wheel and re-do your adjustment (NEVER touch the level)
- Check/adjust rear
- Double check front & rear
- Move string to other side
- Check/adjust front
- Check steering wheel bubble level is still perfectly centered
- If not, re center the wheel and re-do your adjustment (NEVER touch the level)
- Check/adjust rear
- Double check front & rear
For measuring I use a metal 0.5mm precision scale. I also place a cheap bubble level on it when taking measurements. You want to make measurements with the scale as level as possible (for greater accuracy). I even cut the end of the scale to point so the measuring edge is only part touching the rim. I put some rubber cement over the top to keep it scratching the wheel. With this technique I'm confident I can get to a 0.1mm accuracy per wheel (0.2mm total toe).
1 of these (cut off corner and glue tip for no scratches):
2 of these:
1 of these (0.2mm diameter):
This thing helps a bit but isn't perfect at stopping feedback. ALWAYS double check your bubble level on the steering wheel:
Last edited by 94eg!; 10-24-2013 at 02:27 PM.
The following 3 users liked this post by 94eg!:
10-24-2013, 02:25 PM
#51
Team Owner
Wow, thanks. You just saved me a ton of time and frustration. Very much appreciated.
10-24-2013, 02:32 PM
#52
Drifting
I'm surprised you all would try that since so many of you are so "anal" about the comments you make to me.. nevertheless, here is 1 odd ball way of checking the front or rear toe-in, to see if you are more in or out. My male parent told me about this process:
To check the front toe-in, get a long rope and tie it to 1 spoke on the rear wheel and pull it taunt up to the front edge of the front tire on the rubber. Then observe whether or not there is a gap on the rear edge of the front tire. You can make an analysis from there.
To check the rear toe-in, tie the rope to a spoke on the front tire.. and do the same thing as above.
Make sure you nose your car str8 into the garage and dont turn the wheel, as you park. Its a basic way to set the toe-in after you replace tie-rod ends. And 1 thread turn on the front, you can see the difference using the rope method.
Its also a fast easy way to check where you're at
To check the front toe-in, get a long rope and tie it to 1 spoke on the rear wheel and pull it taunt up to the front edge of the front tire on the rubber. Then observe whether or not there is a gap on the rear edge of the front tire. You can make an analysis from there.
To check the rear toe-in, tie the rope to a spoke on the front tire.. and do the same thing as above.
Make sure you nose your car str8 into the garage and dont turn the wheel, as you park. Its a basic way to set the toe-in after you replace tie-rod ends. And 1 thread turn on the front, you can see the difference using the rope method.
Its also a fast easy way to check where you're at
Last edited by Chad05TL; 10-24-2013 at 02:34 PM.
10-24-2013, 02:32 PM
#53
No problem. Took me a few tries to polish the technique, but I got all the bugs out. Only thing that stops me now are frozen bolts.
Oh yeah, this cheapo long-handle wrench set really helps for loosening the tie-rod jam nuts without having to lift the car. The ones on the TL are huge 22mm or 24mm or something.
http://www.harborfreight.com/11-piec...set-47067.html
Oh yeah, this cheapo long-handle wrench set really helps for loosening the tie-rod jam nuts without having to lift the car. The ones on the TL are huge 22mm or 24mm or something.
http://www.harborfreight.com/11-piec...set-47067.html
10-24-2013, 02:34 PM
#54
I'm surprised you all would try that since so many of you are so "anal" about the comments you make to me.. nevertheless, here is 1 odd ball way of checking the front or rear toe-in, to see if you are more in or out. My male parent told me about this process:
To check the front toe-in, get a long rope and tie it to 1 spoke on the rear wheel and pull it taunt up to the front edge of the front tire on the rubber. The observe whether or not there is a gap on the rear edge of the front tire. You can make an analysis from there.
To check the rear toe-in, tie the rope to a spoke on the front tire.. and do the same thing as above.
Make sure you nose your car str8 into the garage and dont turn the wheel, before you start. Its a basic way to set the toe-in after you replace tie-rod ends. And 1 thread turn on the front, you can see the difference using the rope method.
Its also a fast easy way to check where you're at
To check the front toe-in, get a long rope and tie it to 1 spoke on the rear wheel and pull it taunt up to the front edge of the front tire on the rubber. The observe whether or not there is a gap on the rear edge of the front tire. You can make an analysis from there.
To check the rear toe-in, tie the rope to a spoke on the front tire.. and do the same thing as above.
Make sure you nose your car str8 into the garage and dont turn the wheel, before you start. Its a basic way to set the toe-in after you replace tie-rod ends. And 1 thread turn on the front, you can see the difference using the rope method.
Its also a fast easy way to check where you're at
That can't possibly work since your front & rear track width is different. Also rear toe WILL skew your results.
- If your rear track is wider, perfect zero at the front will look like toe-out.
- If your rear track is narrower, perfect zero at the front will look like toe-in.
- If your rear toe is in, perfect zero at the front will look like toe-in (if track is the same)
- If your rear toe is out, perfect zero at the front will look like toe-out (if track is the same)
- If your rear track is wider, front toe-in will look like perfect zero
- If your rear track is narrower, front toe-out will look like perfect zero
It just doesn't work.
Last edited by 94eg!; 10-24-2013 at 02:37 PM.
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I hate cars (10-25-2013)
10-24-2013, 02:36 PM
#55
Drifting
Ok right. If the width of the rear is wider than the front, then it wouldnt be a good guide. But 2mm is not that much. Depends on how much wider the rear tires are apart
Last edited by Chad05TL; 10-24-2013 at 02:39 PM.
10-24-2013, 02:42 PM
#56
Trust me it's plenty. We are talking an accuracy of +/- 0.3mm at each leading/trailing edge of my stock 17" wheels JUST to get within the +/-2mm total-toe spec. If you want it better than that, you really gotta be gnats-ass on it.
That 2mm spec gets divided 4 times when you are actually taking measurements. Plus you loose another ~20% because your rim isn't the same diameter as the standard of measuring alignments (24" diameter or something like that). You have to be +/- 0.3mm of your target for each measurement and my method gets it down to ~+/-0.1mm.
You mentioned something about being anal?
That 2mm spec gets divided 4 times when you are actually taking measurements. Plus you loose another ~20% because your rim isn't the same diameter as the standard of measuring alignments (24" diameter or something like that). You have to be +/- 0.3mm of your target for each measurement and my method gets it down to ~+/-0.1mm.
You mentioned something about being anal?
Last edited by 94eg!; 10-24-2013 at 02:50 PM.
10-24-2013, 02:53 PM
#57
Drifting
Well, if a guy has unusual wear, i bet he would be further out of spec. So, this is just a fast and easy spitball way to get an idea if the front is 1 turn out, or 2 turns out of alignment on the tie-rod. 1 turn on that tire rod is very noticeable because if it take 1mm off the front edge, it will also take 1mm off the rear edge because the tire turns.
Anyway, its not ment to be a fantastic way to set your alignment. But my dad said back in the 60's, that is how they did it. The rope itself is not exactly truely str8 either.. not like a laser beam, but it bows downward if any. And that doesnt matter for toe. This is also meant to be a method to make your car passible to drive until you get it into a shop.
Anyway, its not ment to be a fantastic way to set your alignment. But my dad said back in the 60's, that is how they did it. The rope itself is not exactly truely str8 either.. not like a laser beam, but it bows downward if any. And that doesnt matter for toe. This is also meant to be a method to make your car passible to drive until you get it into a shop.
10-24-2013, 02:57 PM
#58
One turn adds WAY more than 1mm. I makes more than that because the thread pitch is bigger than 1mm and also because the tie-rod is further in toward the center of the wheel than the lip of the rim. 
10-25-2013, 08:57 AM
#61
For the front, it seems to me like the subframe has possibly shifted left. This will increase camber on the the left and reduce it on the right. This might also explain why you had toe-out on the LF and toe-in on the RF before they adjusted it. I don't know if alignment shops are willing to loosen the subframe and give it a shove though. I doubt it. :\
Something is not right. How did you have positive camber in the LR, and how did they fix that? Stock suspension is not adjustable for camber. To me that says someone has possibly hit a curb. Something is wrong back there which is why they could not get the rear toe back in line. As it's set right now, the LR is set with max toe-in and the RR is set with a bit of toe-out. This cancels out the excessive toe-in in the rear, but also causes the back end of the car to step to the right a little. Depending on how the front end is thrusting, this can seem like your steering wheel is slightly off center to the right as you steer to compensate.
Something is not right. How did you have positive camber in the LR, and how did they fix that? Stock suspension is not adjustable for camber. To me that says someone has possibly hit a curb. Something is wrong back there which is why they could not get the rear toe back in line. As it's set right now, the LR is set with max toe-in and the RR is set with a bit of toe-out. This cancels out the excessive toe-in in the rear, but also causes the back end of the car to step to the right a little. Depending on how the front end is thrusting, this can seem like your steering wheel is slightly off center to the right as you steer to compensate.
11-02-2013, 10:40 AM
#62
Drifting
What is the camber and caster and toe for all 4 wheels. In degrees!!! This guy just set my wheels like this
Left front
Camber. -.6
Caster. 3.0
Toe -.04
Right front
Cam. -.6
Caster. 3.4
Toe. .05
Left rear
Cam. -2.1
Toe. -.03
Right rear
Cam. -1.8
Toe. .03
I dont like the -.04 toe on the left front. Should I have him change it? Also the negative toe on the left rear
Left front
Camber. -.6
Caster. 3.0
Toe -.04
Right front
Cam. -.6
Caster. 3.4
Toe. .05
Left rear
Cam. -2.1
Toe. -.03
Right rear
Cam. -1.8
Toe. .03
I dont like the -.04 toe on the left front. Should I have him change it? Also the negative toe on the left rear
Last edited by Chad05TL; 11-02-2013 at 10:49 AM.
11-02-2013, 10:56 AM
#63
Drifting
pic
Pic
11-02-2013, 11:01 AM
#64
Team Owner
That's the tech being lazy. I would take it back until toe is zero. Do you have the before specs? How does it drive now compared to before?
11-02-2013, 11:32 AM
#65
Drifting
I asked him about the "before" specs. And mysteriously, he doesnt have them. I think you are right about him being lazy and moving it through too fast. So i am sitting here back in the shop.. i asked him to get the drivers front to positive toe territory. And the steering wheels is slightly to the right.
11-02-2013, 11:45 AM
#66
Drifting
They did the alignment really quickfor 100 dollars the first go around.. i dont even know if he changed the rear at all.. and now he is complaining about time and money and says its within specs.. and he doesnt really want to spend more time on it. They used to be a good place. He said do you want us to do it your way or by the specs.. and I said my way!! Im paying you jackass.. hahha no i didnt say that but i wanted to.. but I did say yes i want it done my way. Their specs say it is ok to go .8 degrees toe out. Ha! Dont think so! So i toldhim if he needs more money letme know. Its not about the money. Fortunately i have enough money.. anyways!!! I hate arguing with people. Why cant people do a good jobthe first time then i wouldnt beback again..
11-02-2013, 11:47 AM
#67
Drifting
By theway, from my camaro days, a little +toe is good for stability.
11-02-2013, 11:58 AM
#68
Your total toe is zero in the rear. It will just cause a little crabbing. Not terrbile, but still annoying. For the front you total toe of +0.01. This is minimal and also in line with the rear's crabbing.
The real question is, with 0.00 total toe in the rear and +0.01 total in the front, how is the "stability" of the car?
The real question is, with 0.00 total toe in the rear and +0.01 total in the front, how is the "stability" of the car?
11-02-2013, 12:14 PM
#69
Drifting
He just came in the room and said he got the front at 0 toe on both sides. So, I'm going to have to take what I can get.. sometimes, certain people are only worth so much. We can squeeze them, but to little avail. But maybe some..
The way it was set, it felt less stiff, but it would veer off 1 direction or the other quite easily.
The way it was set, it felt less stiff, but it would veer off 1 direction or the other quite easily.
11-02-2013, 12:16 PM
#70
Team Owner
Your total toe is zero in the rear. It will just cause a little crabbing. Not terrbile, but still annoying. For the front you total toe of +0.01. This is minimal and also in line with the rear's crabbing.
The real question is, with 0.00 total toe in the rear and +0.01 total in the front, how is the "stability" of the car?
The real question is, with 0.00 total toe in the rear and +0.01 total in the front, how is the "stability" of the car?
Chad, trust me, you don't want positive toe on this car, in my experience it has made it a little unstable feeling. Maybe others have had a different experience but mine consistently feels that way with for toe out. For what its worth I like a little toe out in the front (just a little) for track days. That unstable feeling also makes it more nimble feeling and I can deal with a slight unstable feeling at the track, I actually like it.
11-02-2013, 12:18 PM
#71
Team Owner
He just came in the room and said he got the front at 0 toe on both sides. So, I'm going to have to take what I can get.. sometimes, certain people are only worth so much. We can squeeze them, but to little avail. But maybe some..
The way it was set, it felt less stiff, but it would veer off 1 direction or the other quite easily.
The way it was set, it felt less stiff, but it would veer off 1 direction or the other quite easily.
11-02-2013, 12:20 PM
#72
Drifting
He said the toe is set at zero now onthe front. I will let you know how it feels in a few minutes.
11-02-2013, 12:23 PM
#73
Drifting
They are test driving it now. Funnything though, I didnt know my car looks so good, when I see him driving it. They were telling my how nice it is.
11-02-2013, 01:28 PM
#74
Drifting
Ok. Now it does not veer off in 1 direction or the other as I said before. And I did not notice any floaty feeling on the highway and i was doing up to 70mph. After he finished the first time, overall it was slightly pulling to the right (just overall though). And the steering wheel was slightly to the right, whereas for the past several years it was slightly to the left. But now it goes str8 but the steering wheel is back slightly to the left. I'd rather have it slighlty to the left and have it not pull, than the way it was. And if it cant be perfect then I'd rather have it slightly to the left. Maybe because I have driven it that way so long.. i dunno. But the good thing is i did not notice any "floatyness" . I asked him if he changed the rear at all.. and he said no. So, I dont know why they were so mad when I asked them to do it again. When they finished the 2nd time, the hispanic guy had his older hispanic friend standing there beside him, not saying a word, like he was there to protect him. That is what they do. I've seen this before.
Anyway, the 2nd set of numbers shows the toe on the front much more balanced. I think I am good with this setup. So far it feels ok. But I wont know about tire wear until later. But I only had 1 tire that had a slight uneven wear. That was the front left. Unfortunately, they did not have the original settings saved. I think he did notmake much of an adjustment, thats why he didn't give them to me. People want to put little effort into their work. So they dont try much unless it is their own vehicle. I had this work done at "Driver's edge" in Irving, tx. On MacArthur blvd.
Anyway, the 2nd set of numbers shows the toe on the front much more balanced. I think I am good with this setup. So far it feels ok. But I wont know about tire wear until later. But I only had 1 tire that had a slight uneven wear. That was the front left. Unfortunately, they did not have the original settings saved. I think he did notmake much of an adjustment, thats why he didn't give them to me. People want to put little effort into their work. So they dont try much unless it is their own vehicle. I had this work done at "Driver's edge" in Irving, tx. On MacArthur blvd.
11-02-2013, 02:04 PM
#75
Team Owner
I'm glad the floaty feeling is gone. It sucks the shop is so incompetent (lazy). Centering the steering wheel is a normal part of an alignment, not optional.
I don't always have good judgement so when the guy's backup arrived I probably would have put them both in the concrete just for trying to intimidate me.
I would watch tire wear closely and if anything develops, try and make them pay. I doubt the tires will wear unevenly with those specs but it would annoy the hell out of me to have my steering wheel off center. Not to mention your rear wheels are pointed slightly to the right. Hopefully it's not enough for you to notice. I love messing with those guys. One thing I learned is to get it fixed right while your there or get your money back. Put the pressure on them and don't let up until you're satisfied. Leaving and coming back later gives them time to recoup. You paid money for a service and it should be right, not barely good enough because the tech is a lazy ass. Good luck with it.
I don't always have good judgement so when the guy's backup arrived I probably would have put them both in the concrete just for trying to intimidate me.
I would watch tire wear closely and if anything develops, try and make them pay. I doubt the tires will wear unevenly with those specs but it would annoy the hell out of me to have my steering wheel off center. Not to mention your rear wheels are pointed slightly to the right. Hopefully it's not enough for you to notice. I love messing with those guys. One thing I learned is to get it fixed right while your there or get your money back. Put the pressure on them and don't let up until you're satisfied. Leaving and coming back later gives them time to recoup. You paid money for a service and it should be right, not barely good enough because the tech is a lazy ass. Good luck with it.
11-02-2013, 02:19 PM
#76
Drifting
ya, I left for a while, and then went back. At first I was in a hurry to get back then I decided it would be best to wait a bit. But I think the rear is both slightly pointed left, not right.
You know its weird. The paper says the total rear Toe is Zero. I think they just add the 2 numbers together and come up with zero, but that's not exactly how you should think of it. Because if 1 is negative and the other is positive, then the rear will tend to track off to one side. Ironically, if both the left and right are both positive, then both are facing inward and not "adding to" one another and causing a larger offset. But still they add these 2 numbers together and say zero is good. Am I making sense? It would be best to have 2 numbers for the rear toe that have the same amount of toe, (equal toe), so that one does not pull against the other, and so that the rear end does not track off to 1 side. Nevertheless, they add these 2 numbers together, and mathematically it comes to zero, but the truth is, both tires are facing left, ever so slightly. And if they both face the same direction then the rear end would likely track off to the left or the right.
But I'll post up more later if I feel any floaty feeling. I think ultimately, this car will not handle like my Camaro. Everything about the 1997 Camaro is different. All the way down to the 35mm FSW, and 9" rims, and eibach+bilsteins.. haha but still, for a 4 door sedan, it's not too bad right now.
And you are right. It was an intimidation tactic. but it did not work.
You know its weird. The paper says the total rear Toe is Zero. I think they just add the 2 numbers together and come up with zero, but that's not exactly how you should think of it. Because if 1 is negative and the other is positive, then the rear will tend to track off to one side. Ironically, if both the left and right are both positive, then both are facing inward and not "adding to" one another and causing a larger offset. But still they add these 2 numbers together and say zero is good. Am I making sense? It would be best to have 2 numbers for the rear toe that have the same amount of toe, (equal toe), so that one does not pull against the other, and so that the rear end does not track off to 1 side. Nevertheless, they add these 2 numbers together, and mathematically it comes to zero, but the truth is, both tires are facing left, ever so slightly. And if they both face the same direction then the rear end would likely track off to the left or the right.
But I'll post up more later if I feel any floaty feeling. I think ultimately, this car will not handle like my Camaro. Everything about the 1997 Camaro is different. All the way down to the 35mm FSW, and 9" rims, and eibach+bilsteins.. haha but still, for a 4 door sedan, it's not too bad right now.
And you are right. It was an intimidation tactic. but it did not work.
Last edited by Chad05TL; 11-02-2013 at 02:28 PM.
11-02-2013, 06:57 PM
#77
Drifting
Straightening the steering wheel without changing the wheel alignment
Since the Toe is now set to even on both sides, and my steering wheel is probably off more now than what it was before I went in, then I am going to try and adjust the steering wheel by turning both tie rods in an equal amount but in opposite directions. That should bring my steering wheel back straight and retain the .01 degree's Toe in setting that I currently have.
11-03-2013, 06:47 PM
#78
Don't mess with it. Small adjustments make a big difference. You would have to be very methodical about it if you did this. Use a pen and make marks and be super anal if you do.
11-03-2013, 07:10 PM
#79
Drifting
ya, I am definitely not putting it at the top of my list of things to do. One thing though, I have not noticed any floaty feelings, even today. And I got on the highway and hit 75, maybe 80. Everyone in Dallas drives fast. So no biggie.. haha but, it felt pretty good other than the steering wheel off center a little bit. So thats good. And you are right, a little change makes a bit difference below. So, I don't know if the hardware is capable of being fine tuned to the way I think it should be. And that is, leave the Toe as it is.. and only center the steering wheel. So, I would have to turn the tie rod ends just enough, like maybe half a turn, if it would let me, then lock it down. But I have not looked at the tie rods. I do not know if that tie rod will go half a turn. In the picture in the above attachment, the tie rod looks fully adjustable on one side, but the other side looks flat.. like maybe I can't turn it half a turn.. So, I'll have to look at it. sometime... And I know that 1 full turn on the tie rod can make a huge difference. So, I'm not sure how to get it precise. At least on my Camaro, when I replaced the Rack, 1 turn was huge. And I could only get it just so close with 1 turn. And that was using the rope method I told you about . A rope will tell you if you are 1 turn in or out too far. remember the rope from rear wheel tied to the front? I mentioned that. But I would not use a rope on this. All I need to do is turn the tie rod like half a turn on both sides, in opposite directions.
Last edited by Chad05TL; 11-03-2013 at 07:14 PM.
11-29-2013, 08:29 PM
#80
Drifting
well, I bought groceries again a few weeks ago. I think it still feels better with a load in the rear trunk.. But I DO think the alignment helped! So I don't think it was wasted money. But I think I would need to replace the shocks even though they don't have many miles on them. I have the Aspec factory spring kit. It came with shocks and springs. If I replace the shocks, I would like to lower the car 1/2 an inch more. I was told I would get 1" drop, but I didn't. I only got about 1/2". So, now I'm stuck. I would keep the springs if I could lower it another inch.. but I am thinking about going with eibach and koni..
Anyway! After the alignment.. He adjusted the toe so that it is equal on both sides. I think that is best for wear. However, As I mentioned, the steering wheel is off a bit more to the left.. And therefore I think the previous alignment was changed so the toe was at an "average" where the steering wheel was "straighter"!
Separately, I also noticed something else since the alignment. The car now drifts kinda hard to the left or to the right depending on if there is a slant in the road. If the ground is level it does not pull left or right even though the steering wheel is off center. So, here is what I think. I think the previous alignment also had a lot of Caster setup because that would make the steering wheel pull back, or bounce back to center after a turn much easier. High caster also causes the car to go straigher, and that it probably why they had so much caster on it. The alignment guy said "1 side was dragging", whatever that means. I think he meant it had a lot of caster on it.. Subsequently, now that he took out that dragging side, meaning, less castor, it is a lot easier to steer the wheel, but it also does not remain as straight. Some people say, "their steering wheel is stiff".. well.. if you have too much caster, it can make it hard to turn, but it will spring back to center faster after a turn. So its a give and take...
Again, I read a TSB below.. and it comments on VEERING. It says the culprit is a bad left Tie Rod.. I think I am reading that correctly.
click here first:
http://estore.honda.com/acura/access...L&modelName=TL
TSB
http://techinfo.honda.com/Rjanisis/pubs/SB/B06-034.PDF
after reading that TSB, I found a Steering Drift Set Level:
http://www.cmsnl.com/products/steeri..._07aaj001a200/
Summary, while the new alignment was good for tire wear, it sort of uncovered a bunch of other issues. haha Lovely! I may have a bad tie rod but I don't think I want to buy all those steering drift tools
Anyway! After the alignment.. He adjusted the toe so that it is equal on both sides. I think that is best for wear. However, As I mentioned, the steering wheel is off a bit more to the left.. And therefore I think the previous alignment was changed so the toe was at an "average" where the steering wheel was "straighter"!
Separately, I also noticed something else since the alignment. The car now drifts kinda hard to the left or to the right depending on if there is a slant in the road. If the ground is level it does not pull left or right even though the steering wheel is off center. So, here is what I think. I think the previous alignment also had a lot of Caster setup because that would make the steering wheel pull back, or bounce back to center after a turn much easier. High caster also causes the car to go straigher, and that it probably why they had so much caster on it. The alignment guy said "1 side was dragging", whatever that means. I think he meant it had a lot of caster on it.. Subsequently, now that he took out that dragging side, meaning, less castor, it is a lot easier to steer the wheel, but it also does not remain as straight. Some people say, "their steering wheel is stiff".. well.. if you have too much caster, it can make it hard to turn, but it will spring back to center faster after a turn. So its a give and take...
Again, I read a TSB below.. and it comments on VEERING. It says the culprit is a bad left Tie Rod.. I think I am reading that correctly.
click here first:
http://estore.honda.com/acura/access...L&modelName=TL
TSB
http://techinfo.honda.com/Rjanisis/pubs/SB/B06-034.PDF
after reading that TSB, I found a Steering Drift Set Level:
http://www.cmsnl.com/products/steeri..._07aaj001a200/
Summary, while the new alignment was good for tire wear, it sort of uncovered a bunch of other issues. haha Lovely! I may have a bad tie rod but I don't think I want to buy all those steering drift tools
Last edited by Chad05TL; 11-29-2013 at 08:32 PM.