Doc Alejo

Do you guys remember when you first initially drove a TL and almost got scared sh*tless due to feeling like your car was floating because the steering wheel was moving uncontrollably, or it may just be me,... ? What was the best way to fix that problem?

ABP_04TL

iTrader: (2)

Please list your mods...

U may want to get sum coilovers

TWiSDiT

iTrader: (4)

sounds like to need to invest in some suspension upgrade, as ABP said above ^^ that will eliminate your problem. I know im riding on rails, feels like a go-kart

Bearcat94

And what car you have. And it's mileage.


'04 6MT with 180,000 miles? '08 Base with 18,000 miles? 05' AT with 60,000 miles?


Stuff like that matters.

ABP_04TL

iTrader: (2)

Plus this ^

winkyyy

Get coilovers and that should solve all your problems.

Will Y.

It's just you... Well, it's not my car, anyway.

In addition to a description of your car and mods, also describe each of your wheels and tires, including wear status, sidewall appearance and cold pressure. A bad tire with separated tread will also cause the symptoms you described.

Jackass

I remember feeling that way when driving my old '81 Cutlass Supreme, but never my TL. Something must be very wrong with your car.

callahan

^^^ I doubt it, I'm sure his car just needs some new coils. Previous owner probably like off ramps to much lol.

**WhItE-aNgEl**

I only get that floating feeling when I'm driving 80+ mph

Skunkworks

iTrader: (6)

Wow, im surprised reading this because when i first drove my 07 type-s i felt the floating sensation you're talking about. At first i thought it was just my crappy tires but after I put lowering springs/koni's and got alignment it felt better.

callahan

Yeah it's def your old shocks, this gives u a excuse to up grade lol.

flyromeo3

replace your shocks.

Doc Alejo

Well after driving with 110,xxx miles on it right now. I don't have the floating drive any more. I first initially felt it around 77,000 miles on my 2006 TL w/ Nav w/ all OEM parts.

Doc Alejo

As for the shock business, I took my car to a shop and there weren't any issues with the suspension or shocks. I'm just glad nothing went wrong with those. Thanks for your responses though

Chad05TL

+1 for the floaty feel.. I'm thinking about changing my shocks too, because I have that floaty feeling.. But it goes away with a little added weight in the rear. I know if I took my car to the dealer like you, they would not find any problems. I have the aspec shocks and springs.. And they are not old, and the rear tires wear very evenly. The front alignment may be off slightly but even after 15k miles I barely see only a slight uneven wear on the front. But its just very slight. Like nothing a simple tire rotation would not solve, and I am down about 1/2 way on the tread. And they have never been rotated until last week. So, again, even the front is wearing pretty good. Anyways..

96SC4

Rotate every 6k miles
Your tires will last longer and wear more evenly

geekybiker

When a shop says 'nothing wrong' it normally means they aren't leaking. Shocks can be worn to the point where they aren't providing nearly as much dampening long before they go 'bad'. Floaty feeling on a used TL is going to be fixed with new shocks the vast majority of the time.

Chad05TL

Finally some words of wisdom. I totally agree, especially considering my car is not ancient or a major jalopy. Peace.

I hate cars

It's not your shocks, it's your alignment. It's not your camber, it's the toe. Adding weight REDUCES damping.

Agreed. Shocks can be almost non functional and have no exterior signs of leakage. In Chad's case from his other thread he's having other issues that he refuses to look at, claiming the car feels more stable with more weight in the rear which is not a damping issue.

Chad05TL

I still think I need shocks with better dampening so its not moving so freely at the top of the shock. Adding just a little weight helps it a lot. Not a lot of weight, just little. So, i'm changing the shocks. The little amount weight wont throw out the camber that much. Its the oem shocks. if i am wrong, i'll let u know.

But there could be a very slight toe correction on the front.. but it would be so slight, that i can barely tell a difference in the wear of the tire even after 10k miles. And the back is perfect. No toe problem at all, because the tire would show it and even after so many miles, i see no difference in the wear. Its even. So the rear is fine. Only the front might need a slight adjustment.

So if toe is the problem, then the slight added weight in the rear would have to offset the front.. only the front coukd have any slight problem. The back wears fine. If the front is the issue, and if the symptoms goes away with adding 75 pounds in the rear, then you are saying that the 75 in the rear is enough to shift the alignment in the front? Thatz hard to believe.. ive never had any car that drove better by adding weight to the rear except this TL and there is very normal tire wear..

Chad05TL

If toe is the issue the how does adding 75 pounds or so to the rear effect the toe on the front? As far as i know, only camber changes with weight, even though I'm talking about 75pounds. Toe is how far the tires are point away from a straight ahead. And I dont think that changes with a LITTLE weight. It shoudnt change at all with any weight.

I hate cars

I've never mentioned the front. It's the rear toe and rear toe changes with ride height. Again, if you have any free play at the top of stroke something is wrong and it needs to be fixed. The shocks are already compressed several inches at normal ride height so they're not at or near the top of their stroke. Your car sits lower than stock as well.

Again, weight DECREASES damping.

Tires won't always show toe wear. It depends on the severity of the toe angle and the tires. You said that your TL drops an inch with groceries in the back in the other thread. That will affect both toe and camber but it's not your camber.

You would rather replace the shocks just to not take my advice. Shocks don't determine ride height, they only damp (not dampen) motion.

I hate cars

In the rear of an '04-'08 Acura TL, rear toe changes based on ride height. You said the car rides 1" lower with groceries. That is enough. You probably had something in the trunk the last time you got it aligned or the alignment guy sucks. Alignments should be done at normal ride height including driver weight.

Chad05TL

If toe changes with added weight, then camber has to change first. And toe does not change that much IF ANY. One thing online said the rear does not change at all, while the front may change a little. But need viable source not just another forum.

I hate cars

Here you go Chad, since you refuse to believe me. I used your old friend Google since a random website seems to have more credibility.

http://honda-tech.com/showthread.php?t=2871062

Look at the toe curve for the Honda rear suspnsion. Notice on rebound (that's an upward motion) it toes out. On compression it toes in. Toe out produces the unstable feeling. Look at what happens when you compress the suspension, it toes in. Your alignment is off.

Also notice the provisions made to produce toe in under hard braking even though the suspension is unloading in order to increase stability. Alignment, not shocks.

96SC4

Dude. Get an alignment first and see what happens...
Whenever you have a problem, you always start diagnosing with the cheaper fixes first. If it doesn't work, get your shocks.
Plus, IHC has a pretty good grasp on what he's talking about.
Good luck.

Chad05TL

strange. That explains all those funky bars holding the rear wheel. Camaro's are not like that. w/Rear axle. The toe is not dynamic. But I don't really know if the front or rear is causing the floaty feeling, or maybe both, because I did notice the steering feels more stiff and solid after I rotated the tires. basically the rear back ones I put on the front. And the front had a slight more wear on the inside of the tire. The rears were wearing as good as anyway could ask. So the good ones are now on the front and it does steer better, but not sure about "floating" yet.. I have not driven it but once since last weekend.

I read this.
http://world.honda.com/news/1997/t970702b.html

I'm going to lower it anyway most likely, so I should do that first

Chad05TL

you would think that since the rear tires are wearing almost perfectly, that it would not need alignment. serious. That is 101 . And the rear tires are perfect. Only the front had worn slightly more on the inside.. but still it wasn't terrible since I have never rotated the tires and had them a while. Plus you gotta remember that toe-in only occurs when cornering or compression.. Otherwise it goes straight. So no wear should be seen while going down the highway with no load.. But that is when I get the floating feeling..

So, by this design, according to what you are saying, in order for me to "feel less floaty" under a load than when I am cargo free, then something is shifting from tow-out to toe-in.. Or at least, it will go more in than what it currently is.. the book says the rear should be 2mm +/- 2mm. And the front should be 0mm +/-2mm.

I started to say that if the rear is wearing super even, then the toe must not be out. However, if 0 is perfectly even, then there will not be any toe and it does call for 0 to +4mm of toe. So it likes +toe on the rear. Maybe to solve that floaty feeling.. And it might be possible that such a small amount of toe will not show up on tires as wear.

Chad05TL

I may have too much toe on the front and too little on the rear.

This site says:
Excessive toe settings often bring with them drivability problems, especially during heavy rain. This is because the daily pounding of tractor trailers on many highways leave ruts that fill with water. Since excessive toe means that each tire is pointed in a direction other than straight ahead, when the vehicle encounters a puddle that causes only one tire to lose some of its grip, the other tire's toe setting will push (excessive toe-in) or pull (excessive toe-out) the vehicle to the side. This may make the vehicle feel unsettled and very "nervous."

*And my car does not feel that good in the rain as the article suggests. *especially on the front*.

Elegant TYPE S

iTrader: (2)

So im confused. So once lowered... what alignement specs should we aim for for front and rear? Does someone mind posting the actual numbers for ideots to follow. My car also has these qualities that chad describes, except i notice it handles better with a full tank of gas opposed to groceries and deteriorates as it approaches empty. Same principle... more weight in the back end.

Chad05TL

ya.. that's a true statement. even a full tank.. And if I go fast on the highway at this condition, then it makes me feel like I am coming off my seat.. Like I try to stay in control and I feel like I come out of my seat a little bit to stay in control. Its probably a subconscious reaction to instability.. but when I am loaded, it feels stabile, and solid, and very predictable and I don't come unglued from my seat. Otherwise it even tends to wander a bit.. and I have to compensate for it. Anyway, I would like to see some real numbers as well!! Thanks for posting, elegant. I am going to get an alignment either before or after I get koni's or tein SA's.

I am not sure if I want to lower or not. like how much is 20mm worth? haha and I don't wanna go as low as teins will take you. And most lowered TL's on Azine are too low for my taste. So, its taking a while for me to decide. plus I am not done with all my other mods yet.

I hate cars

The first thing is additional weight will never make it handle better, it won't increase traction. It's probably causing less toe out if you have too much toe out when unloaded which can make the car feel like it's more stable with extra weight. Tires can still wear relatively evenly with toe but if severe enough they can feather. Toe out can also slightly increase inside tire wear which looks a lot like too much negative camber but will usually have some feathering on the tread. Again, it all depends on the severity and even the tire rotation schedule and compound whether or not you see irregular wear.

I'm sure you've had your car aligned after it was lowered, if I remember right yours has been lowered longer than most people have owned their TLs. Did you experience this at first or is this a recent problem?

Chad05TL

what I meant to say was that a full tank helps it feel better.

Chad05TL

IHC, we are agreeing with you about the alignment. But the slight bit more weight does make it feel better. Sometimes, real world is not like theory. I did that all through school. Theory and test. There is that 10% room for error. All resistors are not exact. And random things happen. You just have to drive it to see what we mean. haha ..

Even that webpage I posted a link to, said that toe that is too far out can make it feel unstable. And if toe increases on the rear with added weight, in which it does on the TL, then there you go.

But I see your point about Elegant's condition.. his car was lowered. So unless he had an alignment, then his toe-in on the rear should be greater because toe is increase during compression

I hate cars

I'm very picky with my alignments and my car goes to a place that does mostly race cars. They're the only ones who have ever gotten it right. You guys wouldn't believe how half assed alignments are usually done.

The more weight mine has in the rear such as a full tank, the worse it feels. When I added a couple hundred lbs of audio it handled worse. When I removed it I never wanted to put anything back in my trunk again, the improvement was so nice. Never was there a feeling of instability but general sluggishness and more tail happiness with the weight in the trunk.

I hate cars

I understand what you're describing. I've been in race cars that were the most unstable feeling thing on 4 wheels but they handled great. What I'm getting at is the perception that the car handles worse vs it actually handling worse. Those that throw a 24 mm RSB on an otherwise stock 5at rave about how good the car handles because the steering lightens up and it feels more responsive. Take that same car up to its limit and not only will the limit be reduced from stock, you're going to end up spinning hard.

Chad05TL

if the car handles good and its only my perception that it is handling bad, then what's the point if I can't tell it?

But also, my car does lean a lot too.. (sway bars)

Also, in every car I ever owned, I always hated it when a passenger was in my car. And you are right.. Added weight always made my cars handle worse. But not on this TL with the current alignment.

Are Factory Specs still the best to use? What do you have yours set at IHC?

I hate cars

The front needs to be at 0. I know the factory gives a +- tolerance but zero is what it should be at and you can really feel the difference. It gives the stability needed but doesn't make the steering feel sluggish. Some say front toe needs to have a slight amount of static toe in because once the car starts moving the slop in the suspension will cause a slight toe out. I haven't noticed this but I've only tried to make a couple fwd cars handle well, it's not really my best area.

The rear is fine using the factory specs but I would lean toward the toe in end of the toe range. For some reason as time goes on, I don't know if it's suspension wear and bushings getting old but the alignment gets out and it's usually toward toe out. It seems like every time I bring mine in for an alignment, the rear is toed out. Most of the time the alignment is never done right in the first place. If you could just get them to align the rear right in the middle of the factory tolerance and if they don't do it, make them do it over again right away, you'll be happy. If your trunk is normally empty, make sure it's empty when you get it aligned. If you always have stuff back there it's your call if you want to leave it in there. Alignment shops are some of the laziest. It's been my experience that anywhere near factory specs is good enough for them. I've gotten mine back with the toe out of spec and made them do it over several times.

Chad05TL

ya, finding a detailed person to give you a personal good quality alignment as if it was his own car, is hard to find. Even mechanics in the industry say "its hard to find a good alignment guy". So, what are them guys called anyway? Alignmentologists? Or Alingineer? haha =)

Also, I know most sports car guys say to put a tad bit of toe-in on the front. I had a really good setup on my Camaro. I had a tad bit of toe-in but it did not wear bad. I have been in Dallas 10 yrs, and I will look up that place in Irving where I took my Camaro several years ago. I probably should have kept the Camaro.. But I didn't have the space for 2 cars. And the Camaro was giving me fits. I'll never own another LT1 engine again or an engine that is iron with aluminum heads. They don't play well after time or with age. Plus the LT1 had crap for an ignition system. Even the cooling system was hanging on by a thread. Just a few air bubbles in the system and it ran 10 degree's hotter. It had to be setup perfect or else it had issues. Even after market electronic parts wreaked havoc on the other parts.. It's almost like putting in LED's in the interior of the TL. Everything is so fine tuned, than when you go messing with the current flow in the circuits.. and KaPOW! something pops. anyway, maybe this is how cars are in the future. -super-refined- with minimal parts to maximize profits but if you change anything, it blows in your face because of the low tolerance in the circuitry.