JD TL-S

iTrader: (1)

The b4 was supposed to be when it was first put on the rack. Then after was with the camber kit and aligned. I also asked about the numbers. Look at the little needle and arrow where it located. It should be close to the center of the little gauge I guess. I don't know??? I am waiting for some of our Einsteins to comment. If they think its not good, I have 6 months to go back. The guy who did it owned his own shop in Chicago for 35 years. He retired at 58, and moved to Antioch. A year later he got bored and got the Job at NTB. I talked to him, and he seamed very intelligent.

JD TL-S

iTrader: (1)

The Ingalls camber kit is actually a camber and toe kit. It replaces 2 rods on each side. We will have to wait for Dr. BigToe and Kennedy and some other smart people to see what they think. I am not sure of anything??? ALRIGHTY THEN

d1jey1

what got me confuse is that before and after number doesn't show any better change for camber... it should bring the camber close to zero, correct after the camber kit.... again I'm novice on this thing... so will need to wait for the guru to comment...

JD TL-S

iTrader: (1)

YAH I wonder also. If that little grid with the little needle and arrow should be in the center, then something is wrong. My tires are still tipped in at the top??? I understand from Dr. Bigtoe about having the toe in is most important, but I know nuthin.

260 HP

iTrader: (3)

JD, looking at the numbers, the camber kit does nothing on your car. Your camber was totally OK to begin with and it's not needed. The little numbers are the factory spec range. For instance, the factory spec for rear toe is between 0.00 and 0.16.

Don't forget that toe can be adjusted. No camber kit needed for this.

If your camber is not dead on 0, your tires will look tilted. They won't be at 90 degree angle from the level pavement, because you have some negative camber, which is within spec or barely.

Did you see your tires when the car was still at stock height? You probably didn't notice it, but they were tilted, too.

d1jey1, camber adjustment doesn't necessarily have to bring camber readings to zero. It should bring the reading to a number within spec. If the spec is between -0.5 to -1.5, that's where the mechanic should dial it in, not to 0.

When you're stopped at a light, try to see the rear tires on the car in front of you. Almost every car has some negative camber dialed in, especially in the rear, because it helps the tires grip the pavement when cornering. I'm talking about every car, even my wife's lowly Camry LE has -0.5 degree camber front and back, and this car is at stock height and the camber's adjustable.

JD TL-S

iTrader: (1)

260HP, what do you think about all the other numbers after alignment? You seam to know alot, just curious. YAH it looks like Ingall kit wasn't needed. Just makes it easier now for the alignmnet guy

260 HP

iTrader: (3)

I think the other numbers are good. I'd like to see the front toes closer to 0, but they shouldn't hurt anything. If your car drifts, then you need to have the alignment rechecked.

94eg!

If they did install your rear camber kit, they sure as hell didn't bother adjusting it. Whats up with that? You should go back & ask them to remove the rear camber kit since they didn't bother adjusting it. -1.5* is more than acceptable for a performance setup. Then you can sell the stupid thing...

If your happy with how the car feels vs. the money you've spent, then no worries. You should leave it how it is...

Moral of this story: Eibach pro-kit springs result in -1* front camber, and -1.4* rear camber. This is awesome camber settings for a street car, and does not "require" a camber kit...

JD TL-S

iTrader: (1)

YAH, if the little graph indicates the needle should be in the middle, the rear camber is way off. And the front left camber is good, but the front right is way off. I don't understand total toe and thrust angle. But the picture makes me wonder why more wasn't done. Bullshit I say! I wouldn't have a job if I didn't do my job 100% perfect EVERY DAY. I will take back in a couple weeks. First I want more feedback on the numbers so I can learn more. That way they can't blow smoke up my A$$. I can then make good points to them.

Thanks for replying. Jeff D.

94eg!

Don't worry about those little arrows. They are only there to represent how the specs are out in relation to "SPEC". I would make them set rear camber in spec since they obviously didn't.

As for front camber being off from one side to the other, this is VERY common. They might be able to reduce it by loosening the bolts holding the front cross-member that the lower control arms are attached to. Then, using a pry-bar, they can gently persuade the cross-member towards the side with less negative camber. This will help even it out. Just keep in mind that they will probably never be perfectly even, but they might be a bit closer after trying this. It's definitely worth bringing up if/when you go back to get the rears redone...

minkl81

iTrader: (2)

usually camber kit isn't necessary for ~1" drop. i thought tl was special and needed camber kit for 1" drop until i read the whole thread..

chill_dog

94eg! - which is it?

Also, from what I can see, -1.4* is within spec...-0.5* to -1.5*.

d1jey1

Ok... I'm not an expert on this... apologize for noob quesiton... But I've been reading a lot of Acurazine discussion.. especially about the article of camber from mrheeltoe... based on the conclusion by the article... camber kit is not needed, yes camber will make uneven wear on the tire, but it's not too significant... so as long as the toe is set to 0 or close to 0, we shouldn't worry about the uneven tire wear on the tire... so pretty much camber kit is not really needed if you worried about the tire wear, you only need camber kit, if you hate the camber look, or really anal about setting camber#....

But what got me thinking is that... the lower the drop causing more negative camber, right? so if we lower the car 2.0" the camber will be more negative (off) than 1"drop...
So is it right for me to conclude that: if I always set the toe close to zero.. no matter how much drop I do, I shouldn't worried about uneven tire wear without camber kit.....

I'm planning to drop about 1.7-2"... I don't really mind for the camber "physical look" on the car, but I do worry about tire wore out to fast unevenly... but based on the article, I suppose I don't need camber kit... am I correct? any advise?

Hypothetical question: if I ONLY worried about "fast uneven tire wear", don't really care about the camber look... how much drop can I get away without having to install camber kit? should I not even worried about camber no matter how much I drop?

Thanks for all your informative input guys.. really appreciate it

94eg!

I said to just have them set it since he's already paid to have the kit installed. It's just a shame that they installed the kit, but left him with the same camber he came in with is all...

You are correct. Based on what we've seen with this 1" drop, the camber gain is not very drastic on this car. I think you would be quite safe going as low as -2" without the camber kit. As I said before, I have -2.5* camber on the front of my Civic with no uneven wear. All I did was get the toe set to zero. BTW, if you like to corner more aggressively than the average driver in your car, you will quickly overcome the slow inner edge wear. This is why additional negative camber is dialed in on race cars (to even out tread-wear)...

The truth is you won't know for sure until you lower the car and put the thing on the alignment rack. If you have -4* camber, you should probably then get a camber kit. If you only have -2.5* camber, your gonna be looking good. Unfortunately it's better to do it in stages...

260 HP

iTrader: (3)

You are right that the lower the car's dropped, the more negative the camber will be.

Generally, if you're no lower than 1.25" or 1.5", you should be OK. The camber may be out of spec, but not much. I don't remember my alignment numbers, but taking JD's car as an example, I bet if it's lowered 2", the camber will be close to -2 deg front and rear. This could be too much on tire wear and also steering twitchiness.

However, it differs from car to car. Some cars are shipped out from the factory with camber setting almost out of spec. Age, mileage will also play a role, as bushings age, they will deflect more and might throw the numbers off. The best way is to lower it first, then see if your car needs camber correction kit or not. But if you're in Socal, Sears gives you 6000 miles warranty so you can go back for re-alignment if you need to install camber correction kit.

260 HP

iTrader: (3)

LOL, 94eg! beats me to it....

Anyway, my 98 Civic also had about -2.5 deg camber in front before. The car was lowered about 2.75" with H&R Race on Koni yellows. While the car took turns like a champ, at straight lines the car tramlined, pretty badly sometimes. It's because the weight of the car leans on too little of tire tread. It showed some uneven tire wear, but it wasn't too bad at all.

As I said, I'd prefer to keep the camber at -2 max. You'll corner well but you don't lose straight line stability too much to worry about it.

94eg!

While tram-lining is increased by negative camber, it is severely exaggerated on your 6th gen civic by the lack of caster (only +1*). My friend on Honda-Tech has his Integra race car set at +4* of caster and says it made the tram-lining disappear (at -4* front camber)...

260 HP

iTrader: (3)

94eg!, I don't remember the numbers for the Civic anymore, but I think you're right.

I recommend not to exceed -2 deg by too much because when you go too negative, you'll start seeing uneven tire wear even if everything else is setup to spec.

JD TL-S

iTrader: (1)

Well at least this will ease the mind of many people now wanting to lower a little. I did get an alignmnet with 6 month warranty. So lower your car first, get an alignmnet, then go from there. My mistakes will save you all $200-$300 maybe. I don't mind. I learned something. But it is true that some TL'S will possibly need a kit. BUT check it first

Heres my new 35% tint job. They didn't do the entire rear window. But they ddi a great job otherwise

94eg!

They did give you your stock control arms back right?

JD TL-S

iTrader: (1)

Yes they did. I guess I could put them back in and sell the Ingall kit for somebody who really need it. But I paid only $155 for the kit. So why would I go through the problem taking them off to sell for maybe $100. Not worth the hassle.

What were you thinking?

d1jey1

Thanks for all the info guys... AcuraZine is like a school.. I learn bout something else everyday, lol
I'll do the alignment first after dropping to get the number... hopefully it'll be below 2.0 camber.... Toe is adjustable, so no problem... But I heard caster is not adjustable also... should I worried about that?

Sears $70 for six months... so you can have as many alignment as you want in 6 months for one time $70 ... that's very good deal... I'll check it out for sure... do you need to make appointment or just walk-in.. so the alignment price will include them to set to toe until it's right, correct?
I live in socal by the way....

thanks everyone

260 HP

iTrader: (3)

Don't worry about caster. If it's off by too much, then start tackling it. Caster won't change much, if that, when you lower the car.

Sears calls it warranty. So don't just pop in and say I want a re-alignment for reasons other than that they messed up or something. Tell them your car pulls or the steering wheel is crooked or you just hit a big ass pothole. Something along the line. Don't say you just change the ride height or you just got the camber kit installed.

94eg!

I was just thinking you should hang onto the stock parts. Then before you go in for your next alignment a year or two down the road, swap them back onto the car. Then you can sell your used camber kit to some slammed-jdm-yo-stunna...

As 260hp said, don't worry about caster. It doesn't really change at all through the suspension stroke. The only time you need to alter caster is if your trying to tune the behavior of the suspension (usually for racing). IE: More caster = better high-speed stability, but more steering effort...