lowgrowl

To Those of you that have this setup. I have these questions 1) With the Koni's on the softess setting how is the ride? 2) Where do you normally set the Koni's? 3) I sometimes scrape the front bumper on driveways (OE Height) Will it get alot worse? 4) I know the handling is much improved. Are you satisfied? 5) Was a camber kit needed?

tihomirbg

iTrader: (1)

on your #1 question-it was waaay to soft for my taste. The car will be jumping up and down too much. #2 - I have them @ 1 full turn front and rear from the soft position. I felt the ride is good and I get no complains from the people who are with me in the car.
#3- I have RJ"s kit and it is 1.5" lower than the A-spec. You just have to watch out.
#4- this setup is what I want it. #5 YES camber was needed realy bad.
Tim

SteveO5858

Where did you buy your set up? I am looking into doing my drop soon. I was thinking of going with the Koni Yellow and Sportlines. Would that be a little stiffer than the prokits? I am looking to get a similar ride as stock with going about an inch lower. I know that will be hard to find but I don't want to sacrifice my ride.

lowgrowl

I really thought you wouldn't need a camber kit with a inche drop. After all the aspec kit drops it a inche and I'm sure acura wouldn't let the camber go out of spec.

erick3

yeah, that's what i thought too! i went with the H&R Coilovers; slammed it -> 2 inch drop all around. Unfortunately, both the toes and cambers were out on all 4, so I had to raise it back up about an inch. Now, the toes on all 4 are in, but the cambers in the back are off by -2 degrees each. Everyone on the website overall says that as long as the toes are all dead on, the cambers being out won't be a problem (rear cambers kits are an opinion for LOOKS @ this point); thanks to Mr.HeelToe. Thus far, haven't noticed any uneven wearing on the treads @ all, and they've been on for about 3 months-ish; driving back and forth from seattle everyday...

Good LUCK!

lowgrowl

What's the range for the rear? Is -2 way outside of it? I just don't know why hondas have no camber adjusters.

tihomirbg

iTrader: (1)

When I was getting the alignment, my guy said good thing I got the rear camber.
The front, he said, was really close to out of spec. But the rear was lol waaaaaay too much out. I was even able to see how the rear wheels were, well for those who had 2" drop know what I mean. It's $150 and if you have money for spring and shocks, well you'll find money for camber too. Just my
Tim

JD TL-S

iTrader: (1)

TIM, is the Ingalls rear camber kit the one that replaces 2 arms on each side? The one I have coming next tuesday (I believe) has 2 for each side, 1 adjusts camber, ans 1 adjusts toe. I paid $150 also. I had my Eibach pro springs put in at ONE 6 Motorsports today and I can definetly see the rear tire in at the top. Looks angled like a Bimmer. Car rides nice, but bigger bumps are quite hard. Will the Koni yellows improve that? Mark @ ONE 6 said Koni's are the best shocks made. I waited 6.5 hours for the install. VERY busy place! Car looks cool!!!

Excelerate

iTrader: (1)

The Ingalls rear camber kit replaces 2 lower susp arms on each side.

tihomirbg

iTrader: (1)

That is exactly what Ingllas rear camber kit is. Now you see why we need camber kit even it is a only 1". Would please explaine to lowgrowl
why we need camber kit.
You see, I don't know how it is with stock shocks, but if it's not to your taste then go and get the Kony. I'm sooooooooooo happy with my setup.
Tim

tihomirbg

iTrader: (1)

Mine was not just IN at the top, but also it was like Pushed IN. With the camber kit it was easy to fix. I"m so glad that I got the Ingalls.

JD TL-S

iTrader: (1)

WOW, I wonder if I can then have the entire tire/wheel adjusted out more to look like the front. I am just wondering if I can put the 4 rear adjustable arms in myself? It doesn't look hard. I have all the tools, jack and 12,000# jack stands. I can just measure each stock rod and adjust the new ones to the same length. Then go get alignment done.

DOES THIS SOUND OK??? Thankyou for any ideas. Jeff D.

tihomirbg

iTrader: (1)

That's what I did and ended up with pushed in rear wheels. See, I can't tell how it is with out the camber kit, but that was my result after installing it.

dragonlord

Here is my before and after pics of Eibach ProKit.

Before:


After:


Front before:

dragonlord

Here are my fresh pics of the Eibach ProKit install:

Before:


After:


Front before:


Front after:


Rear before:


Rear after:


Side view:




NOW for the Legends!

JD TL-S

iTrader: (1)

Looks great Steve! They WILL settle more. I JUST went out and re-measured my car. The rear is 25.75" and front is 25.5" from the ground. I will go talk a few pics right now. I'll be back.

JD TL-S

iTrader: (1)

They look lower in person




Can't wait for tint next Tuesday

94eg!

The reason is because it would mess up their suspension geometry. Imagine you have 5 links connecting a spindle and you change the length of only one of them (to adjust camber). This will alter the bump-steer curve of the OEM design (or worse, causing binding).

Now imagine you adjust this single arm on one side of the car to a different length as the same arm on the other side. How funky do you think the rear of the car will be after that (asymmetric handling)? The point is that this is exactly how these types of arms are adjusted when bringing camber into spec at the alignment shop. Now your rear suspension is different from left to right...

Now lets say you use adjustable length toe arms (like the ingalls kit has). Instead of using the OEM adjustable slot, you are now altering the length of a second link. And on top of that, you are altering the links different from one side of the car to other as before. Now your rear suspension geometry is totally screwy.

In my opinion, If you truly believe in performance, you lower the car to point you get the camber you want front & rear (weather it's in OEM spec or not). Then set the toe to where you want it (weather it's in OEM spec or not). But I would never change the length of ANY suspension arms without testing exactly how these changes effect bump-steer & dynamic toe. And I certainly would NEVER use different length arms on one side of the car than the other (which is unavoidable with adjustable length arms)...

JD TL-S

iTrader: (1)

Why do I keep getting different opinions about using the Ingall camber kit. I understand what you and Kennedy are saying, but I have talked to 2 veterin alignment guys, NOT someone working at a chain. I spoke to one guy yesterday in detail, and he said it wouldn't hurt to put them in. He did say it all depends on the Acura factory spec on the alignmnet. He won't know how bad it is until he does an alignment. Why would Ingall sell this kit for this car if it wasn't to help getting things right. Then Tim with the Eibach springs and Koni's said his was WAY OFF, and really needed the kit. I would return the kit if I was sure I didn't need it. Now I am really puzzled about changing the geometry or fixing the out of spec with the kit. I just don't want to waste 2 new $$$ tires. I am going to Cleveland next weekend and I don't want problems on the road with tires. 1000 miles total. Should I just go on the trip and see what happens. Or should I put the 4 rods/arms in and get an alignment. I am having my tint put on next tuesday and the alignment guy has his business at the same place. I was going to have everything done at the same time. Its my last chance before my trip next friday morning. These are not stupid questions. You might think one way, but other people think the oposite. I DON'T KNOW?? I have no opinion?? I am trying like hell to figure out what the best thing to do is??

dragonlord

1000 miles won't wear the tires down, unless you're WAY WAY off. See how the car does on the trip, then decide. Then go with what YOU think.

Excelerate

iTrader: (1)

The Ingalls camber kits can be set up to be the exact same length as stock and thefore the same camber and toe. There is no damage that could be done. They allow you to adjust camber and toe and if you want to prevent premature tire wear install them and get the car aligned properly.

JD TL-S

iTrader: (1)

The thing is the kit cost $150 and if I don't need it I wasted money again. If I want to return the kit I don't have much time. I got it at Excelerate LLC Branford CT. I don't even know if I can return it. The invoice says nothing about it. It came from Louisville, Colorado. I guess I will go on the trip without it. If the tires start to wear uneven I don't know if an alignment will make them wear normally. Or wear the part that isn't worn as much.

Thanks for your patience. I just like to have 100% answers. Where I work there are NO excuses. Everything HAS to be 100% perfect/to spec!
And it is nearly impossible

94eg!

Okay, it sounds like tire wear is your main concern. In this case, your MAIN concern is toe. Additional negative camber is just fine (I have -2.5* on the front of my Civic for 7 years now with no uneven wear). As long as toe is straight, the edges of the tires will be safe. This is just fact.

The problem you might run into is when you load the trunk or back seat of the car up for your trip. The rear of the TL has significant amount of dynamic steering built into the rear end. This means that even if the front tires are pointed perfectly straight at static ride height (car unloaded), the rear tires will slightly toe as the rear of the car is loaded with additional weight and the car sags low. This causes toe. Drive for hundreds of miles and your gonna eat your tires. This happens to the TL even if you don't have aftermarket suspensions. To help you out, pack light, and zero out your toe settings with the alignment. This will keep any toe under control, and your tires will be fine without needing a camber kit.

Even if you have a camber kit, your rear tires will still toe when you load up the car. The difference is that the wear will be spread over more surface of the tread. If you cannot pack light (or your still worried about your tires), you should probably just install the adjustable camber arms and have them set by the alignment shop.

I also noticed you already have the car lowered. Can you visibly see bad negative camber in the rear? Did you already get an alignment after you lowered the car? If so, what were the specs?

94eg!

Here is a neat graph and some diagrams I found from the link below. This article details Honda's 5-link rear suspension. It's really interesting to see how the suspension reacts to these different situations. Article: world.honda.com/news/1997/t970702b.html

Straight line bump/dip characteristics (Toe in rate increases as you lower the car):


Cornering characteristics (more toe in when cornering):


Braking characteristics (Yup, more toe in when braking):

chill_dog

Get a camber kit if:

1) You want your wheels to be upright and normal looking after lowering your car.
2) You want to be able to adjust your camber to within factory specs.

If your car is lowered, as long as your toe is set at 0, you will be fine; your wheels will lean in at the top, but you will not have abnormal tire wear. In fact, for performance sake, a little negative camber is a good thing...ever notice how a 911 has a slight negative camber?

94eg!

Have you ever viewed a BMW X5 SUV from behind? They look like they have about 3 or 4 degrees of negative camber in the back stock!

d1jey1

Very good explanation... I was going to drop mine about 1.5"... worried about camber also.. but after reading all of you guys explanation, I do not think I need it.

Question: what is the acura spec camber range? Hypothetical question: if the camber is way-way off but the toe is zero-out... it still shouldn't give significant abnormal tire wear, right?

Thanks for the info guys

94eg!

From memory, I think spec is up to -1* in the rear

You won't have abnormal wear with more camber unless you really load up the back of the car. If the back end is allowed to sag far from "normal height", the toe gain will be much greater than stock ride height with a loaded back end.

If your worried about loading the car too much, just measure the fender gap before you put everything in. Then after the car is loading (including any rear passengers), make sure the fender gap didn't decrease by too much (a finger less should be okay).

JD TL-S

iTrader: (1)

Thanks alot! You guys are like teachers not know-it-alls that give sarcastic comments. That makes a lot of sense. When I go on the trip, I am going alone, so I will put most of my stuff on the floor up front, and the seat. The trunk will only have car cleaning stuff and a 4 way and a few tools. My car is lowered about 1.25" F&R using Eibach Pro springs. I have driven a few hundred miles and haven't noticed any odd wear. And the steering is real straight. My brother and I were also talking about the rear tires on many Bimmers, etc being tilted in at the top. I think I will just go on the trip as is. I HAVEN'T gotten an alignment since I lowered it. SHOULD I if it feels ok??? If I get an alignment before going, I will install the 4 Ingall rods myself, then have an alignment done. What would you do in this situation???

housefull

I'm no expert, but I was told that once I had the springs done, an alignment was mandatory. I'd like to hear other opinions as well cause I've got a set of Pro's waiting in the garage.

260 HP

iTrader: (3)

Whenever you lower or raise your car, you need to get an alignment done. Your car may track straight without any pull but your toe setting has changed.

If you're taking a trip, get the alignment done PRIOR to it.

JD TL-S

iTrader: (1)

OK I will have Ingall rear kit put in and an alignment done. Even if the kit isn't needed it will be installed. I don't have enough time to return the kit. And I don't want to have problems and eneven wear on a 1,000 mile trip. I would have to return the kit within 3 days, pay 25% re-stocking fee and another $20 shipping. Thanks for advice guys! SORRY I am such a pain in the A$$. It came with my DNA.

260 HP

iTrader: (3)

JD, I'd put the car on the alignment rack first before installing the camber kit. If the car doesn't need it, you can always sell the camber kit here or on eBay. You might be able to get all your money back.

JD TL-S

iTrader: (1)

I need to cancel my alignment in Kenosha then. I asked him if he does the alignment and it is off too much, and I put the kit on the rear, will he re-adjust the alignmnet. He said whenever it goes up on the rack its another $80. I need to find a place that does an excellent alignment and allows you to go back again for free. I am not paying he $80 for alignment and $80 to install the rods if they aren't needed. Otherwise if he does the alignment for $80, and then charges $80 to install rods, then another $80 to re align. Thats $240. If I can find a place that will do an alignment and allows you a time frame to take it back, I can go home and install the rods, then go back and get re-aligned. THIS SUCKS BIG TIME!!! I only have mon and tue to get tint and alignment, rods installed if needed and re-align. Tuesday the car will be at the tint shop all day. I will have to do all the alignment, etc. on monday. IF I CAN find the right place?????

94eg!

I would just take the car over to sears. You don't need an appointment, they do top notch laser alignment, and it only cost $70 with a 6 month warranty. Give the guys a call and tell them you have a car and an uninstalled camber kit and see what they tell you...

JD TL-S

iTrader: (1)

I just had an alignment at NTB which is owned by Sears. I was going to install the rear Ingall kit myself today, but it won't stop raining. I closed my eyes when I saw they wanted $127 to install the kit. SICK! I even put them together. All they had to do was take 4 bolts off and put them on. Anyway its done. It was funny how easy it was for him to adjust with the new rods. The alignment was done on a laser Hunter system. The alignmnet was $75 with 6 month warranty. Funny thing was the front was out more then the back. OH SHIT.

d1jey1

JD: did you record the alignment number before and after the camber kit and any adjustment... toe, camber, caster.....

would be awesome if you can share how much you were off before the adjustment and camber kit.... thanks

JD TL-S

iTrader: (1)

YAH I have a fancy print out b4 and after.

JD TL-S

iTrader: (1)

I took a picture of the Alignment specs with Eibach Pro springs and stock shocks on an 07 TL-S. Before and after alignmnet. Hope we can read it.






What do you guys think of these numbers????? This is after the Ingalls rear kit was installed. Probably didn't need it.

d1jey1

That picture is awesome... thanks for sharing it with us

but I got confuse... pls confirm if these right:

Before measurement: is before camber kit was installed
current measurement: is after camber kit was installed and after adjustment

I'm confused because I don't see any camber# change - resulting from camber kit.... and only front toe shows some better change.... and rear toe bit worse...

please correct me if I'm wrong.....