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Bought one set of rear arms, turns out they aren't good, looking at another set now.
Originally I bought these arms which look like a take on the Ingalls rears which I have been informed have bushings that are imply too soft and tend to donut:
Rockauto sells OEM replacements, not upgrade parts. The bushings are likely no firmer than their OEM counterparts, except these arms give you the option of adjusting their length and that's it.
Three separate posts and 2 new threads for the same thing?
I was looking for a way to delete the thread in Performance Parts & Modifications as I realized this is the proper place. Feel free to report that thread to get it taken down, I'd prefer that.
Originally Posted by TacoBello
Rockauto sells OEM replacements, not upgrade parts. The bushings are likely no firmer than their OEM counterparts, except these arms give you the option of adjusting their length and that's it.
Thank you very much for the info. As long as I can get OEM-level ride quality in the rear back, I'll be happy. The rear arms that are currently on feel way too wobbly and soft when driven on the road.
Apparently they can handle both, as there are two arms for each side.
I'm buying adjustable arms cause the car is getting up there in age, so it's mainly to give the alignment guys some wiggle room to get everything properly into spec.
My car is nearing 190k at this point with numerous previous owners, and for the past 3 years I've owned it with stock suspension, it's never had a proper alignment in the rear. Something was always out or in the red by a small margin.
With the help of those adjustable arms, that I'm now replacing with the Moog's for better ride quality in the rear as the bushings on the red ones simply aren't good, I've had the best alignment I've ever seen on this car (with Firestone not even touching the adjustable upper control arms either..).
I'm not going to act like I understand suspension stuff to that level, but if I go from always odd alignments on OEM stuff, to the best alignment I've ever had thanks to adjustable arms then it makes perfect sense to me.
Last edited by LightKiosk; 07-19-2018 at 08:34 PM.
Well....a stock replacement arm with good bushings would get you back into spec too.
The rear suspension wasn't really designed to be adjusted that much. It has a very complex and angle dependent movement.
Plus...virtually any aftermarket part is a downgrade in quality. Bushings are usually junk.
The OEM rear toe arm doesn't have bushings on the spindle side. It has bearings. Done to prevent deflection and control bumpsteer by limiting toe change. All of which controls the car's stability on the highway.
I think Ingalls now sells a bearing style arm. May be something to consider if you're set on adjustable arms.
Anyway. Probably not what you wanted to hear. But...
If the car was designed to be within alignment when it was new....why not just replace the parts that have degraded instead of just throwing an adjustable arm in the mix?
I do understand your situation. The car is old and aftermarket arms are cheap.
Hard to know how long the moog will last because nobody knows what part of your suspension is going bad. Maybe its putting undue stress on the adjustable arms that are forcing the spindle to sit in some position.
The toe arm in particular really should be replaced with one that has bearings in it. Adjustable or not.
Make sure you tighten all the bushing bolts at ride height. Don't tighten them while the car is suspended up on jack stands/a lift with the wheels drooping. That should allow them to last some reasonable time.
Yeah I completely understand where you're coming from, you can't really beat OEM in the end. I'll never argue against that.
At the end of the day as I mentioned the car has nearly 190k miles and has been through numerous owners, so trying to track down issues would send me to the end of the universe. In the end I came to the assumption throwing adjustable arms in the mix would give me more avenues in case something else was wrong, and the alignment did turn out very good with the red arms, sadly the bushings are messing it all up. That and the fact it's ultimately more cost effective for such a high mileage car.
These arms are the last piece of a whole suspension redo, front and rear, so I'm just trying to get the car running properly at this point. The Moog adjustable arms visually look different compared to the red cheap-o ones I purchased and have issues with, so I'm hoping when all is said and done it'll be in a good state suspension wise.
I'll be taking it back to the shop that installed the red arms. I had to purchase $100 worth of OEM bolts for the rear because every single one was seized/snapped off, and had to be cut off to remove. They're great guys and know what they're doing, so I trust them with it. It's been about a 4 (almost 5?) week journey at this point, because most of the suspension stuff from the previous owners were neglected so I ended up replacing things as we went along. The state of my front inner tie rods was borderline dangerous, and I'm thankful the shop caught it when they test drove it.
In the front I have new calipers (stripped threads on the factory Brembo's), new upper & lower control arms, new sway bar end links, new inner & outer tie rods, and new steering rack boots. In the rear I have the new upper adjustable control arms, swaybar end links, these Moog adjustable toe/camber arms I have on the way, and we replaced the trailing arm bushings. I also have new tires coming in and I finally figured out which TPMS sensor was acting up so I have a new one on the way to go with the new tire install. On top of all of that, last winter I installed 4 new strut/spring assemblies all around as the OEM ones were starting to feel very harsh.
At the end of the day I enjoy this car and want to spend a reasonable amount of money relative to its age to get it running properly. I have hope these rear arms will pull everything together, and the car will feel fantastic afterwards.
I've been meaning to ask if anyone here knows, my local Acura is doing an alignment deal for $74.99 throughout the month of July. Is Acura capable of aligning the car with completely adjustable lower and upper arms in the rear, or do they generally avoid such cars?
I've been meaning to ask if anyone here knows, my local Acura is doing an alignment deal for $74.99 throughout the month of July. Is Acura capable of aligning the car with completely adjustable lower and upper arms in the rear, or do they generally avoid such cars?
I would just take it somewhere else. Firestone or whatever. Get a lifetime alignment.
It does make it slightly more difficult to set the INITIAL alignment. But once that's done, it should be fairly easy for the following times.
I have a Firestone lifetime alignment with the car.
I got a little impatient and just switched everything myself, matching the arms on both sides. I can confirm Firestone left the passenger side sticking out further than the driver's side in terms of the adjustable arms.
I don't know if I can trust taking it back to them after their machine gave them "perfect numbers" but I visibly saw the adjustable arm lengths from both sides don't match up.
I'll take it somewhere else and specifically mention that passenger side needs to be brought in to match the driver's side, cause Firestone didn't do it after two alignments.
The arms dont need to be the same length for the alignment to be right.
They're adjustable. There may be minute differences between the two sides. Or it could depend on how they started adjusting.
I don't think its reasonable to say that both need to be exactly the same....
Even the stock adjuster could be positioned differently for each side after an alignment.
If it was small adjustments or differences I can understand that, but in this situation both the upper control arm and lower arms are over-extended compared to the drivers side that it is immediately noticeable as soon as you walk up. It's pretty severe to be completely honest. I think the worst offender here is the over extended upper control arm which is making it look like it has more positive camber. I got the drivers side one in to match the OEM upper arm length, but when comparing it to the passenger side, the passenger side is just simply over extended quite a bit.
I was wanting to fix it myself but I didn't have a wrench large enough for the upper control arm to bring it in. I'll just have to specifically mention it to the alignment guys wherever I go.
Last edited by LightKiosk; 07-22-2018 at 11:47 AM.
They are going to just adjust the arm lengths until the alignment is good. The alignment being "green" is the readout they pay attention to. Regardless of arm lengths.
The arms may NEED to be different lengths for the alignment to be within spec.
The fact that you have way too many adjustable parts is also detrimental to getting all the lengths evenly. Maybe one guy adjusted camber via the LCA. And maybe the other side was adjusted via the UCA (just an example). Now all the arm lengths are different. The only way to remedy it is to remove all the arms and set them ALL to the same length as factory arms. And then start a fresh adjustment. And note to future techs that alignment needs to be adjusted via a procedure. This is all pretty complicated and unlikely to be followed.
ONE adjustable arm is likely all you needed. The rest should have been left alone. Its a very complex rear suspension, as I mentioned.
An adjustable rear UCA combined with the factory toe arm adjuster would have been PLENTY of adjustment, and the alignment would have been a breeze.
Also...these lifetime alignment places have gotten very defensive. If you ask for anything "special", they're liable to deny it and refund you some portion of your lifetime alignment. It seems they are trying to cut ties with previous customers that have special alignments.
My S2000 no longer has a lifetime alignment because I asked for it to be set up to MY spec via the factory adjusters. Ive been doing it for years. All of a sudden, that very simple request turned into "lets part ways". They offered to let me keep my lifetime alignment if I paid $80 extra PLUS $50 per visit.
"LOL", I remarked.
Anyway...let us know how it worked out for you. But don't be surprised if they deny service or ask for more money to get it set up.
They are going to just adjust the arm lengths until the alignment is good. The alignment being "green" is the readout they pay attention to. Regardless of arm lengths.
The arms may NEED to be different lengths for the alignment to be within spec.
The fact that you have way too many adjustable parts is also detrimental to getting all the lengths evenly. Maybe one guy adjusted camber via the LCA. And maybe the other side was adjusted via the UCA (just an example). Now all the arm lengths are different. The only way to remedy it is to remove all the arms and set them ALL to the same length as factory arms. And then start a fresh adjustment. And note to future techs that alignment needs to be adjusted via a procedure. This is all pretty complicated and unlikely to be followed.
ONE adjustable arm is likely all you needed. The rest should have been left alone. Its a very complex rear suspension, as I mentioned.
An adjustable rear UCA combined with the factory toe arm adjuster would have been PLENTY of adjustment, and the alignment would have been a breeze.
Also...these lifetime alignment places have gotten very defensive. If you ask for anything "special", they're liable to deny it and refund you some portion of your lifetime alignment. It seems they are trying to cut ties with previous customers that have special alignments.
My S2000 no longer has a lifetime alignment because I asked for it to be set up to MY spec via the factory adjusters. Ive been doing it for years. All of a sudden, that very simple request turned into "lets part ways". They offered to let me keep my lifetime alignment if I paid $80 extra PLUS $50 per visit.
"LOL", I remarked.
Anyway...let us know how it worked out for you. But don't be surprised if they deny service or ask for more money to get it set up.
Well the Brakes Plus guy did mention there may be an hour labor fee slapped on top which is understandable, so I'm debating just letting Acura deal with it for $180 to get everything proper. My only worry is driving a bit further on brand new tires with a completely out of whack alignment.
I forgot to mention it as well, but when I started removing the arms my mouth was agape. The first person did the passenger side and left the bolts snapped off that the second mechanic had to fix who did the drivers side. When I was removing the arms and everything from the drivers side the holes were fine, but removing the passenger side arms.... the holes were so enlarged washers/spacers had to be fit in to ensure the arm doesn't move around. Until I can source a new subframe, these arms are the only way I can get a proper alignment right now as the first mechanic absolutely and undeniably fucked my shit up on the passenger side.
I don't even know how the second mechanic managed to rig it when installed the red arms on the passenger side from what the first mechanic fucked up, but props to him. Now I'm going to need a subframe if I ever want to go back to stock arms.
Go to a different acura dealership or don't mention the additional camber arms until you talk directly to the tech...
they can adjust those on the plates on the alignment rack without much additional effort...
my own experience with those camber arms are that I do not like them and they allow way too much in the way of adjustability and hoping your tech
can set one arm first to then use the other to get in spec. I also ran into cheap bushings making the car feel super unstable. I much prefer the upper spc 1
arm system if anything at all...
that said, you're done so no point in crapping on what you decided on but wanted to at least mention it...
Go to a different acura dealership or don't mention the additional camber arms until you talk directly to the tech...
they can adjust those on the plates on the alignment rack without much additional effort...
my own experience with those camber arms are that I do not like them and they allow way too much in the way of adjustability and hoping your tech
can set one arm first to then use the other to get in spec. I also ran into cheap bushings making the car feel super unstable. I much prefer the upper spc 1
arm system if anything at all...
that said, you're done so no point in crapping on what you decided on but wanted to at least mention it...
When I called I didn't give a name or anything, just simply inquired about it. I guess I'll go in without mentioning the arms, simply asking for the $74.99 alignment, but I assume they're going to bring it up as soon as the car gets put on the alignment rack.
Acura is going to charge a LOT more if you're asking for the arms to be set to a standard length BEFORE aligning the car.
A few hours is what they will charge...if they agree to even do it at all.
Any shop will need a stock set of arms to know what initial length to set the adjustable arms to.
And...again, this will be a pain in the ass to keep the arms at a set relative length for future alignments. Every tech will just adjust the first arm his eyes land on.
And some of the adjusters don't need to be there.
All this grief...
Its cheaper and easier to remove the unnecessary adjustables. Leave just the adjustable UCA. Go back to stock arms for everything else.
But I'll stop beating that dead horse...
Which subframe hole was elongated? The toe arm hole is oval shaped to allow adjustment. The others should be round.
I mean worst case scenario I can go back under, pop the passenger side arm out, buy a proper size wrench from AutoZone or something and correct it. I still have the OEM arm from the driver's side I used to match, so it would take me 1 hour tops. I just assumed the machine at the shops, being laser guided, would let them know if one wheel is sticking out more than the other.
As far as the elongated hole, it's the one most to the rear, so I assume that's the toe hole.
Last edited by LightKiosk; 07-23-2018 at 02:47 PM.
On second thought I'll just take the old OEM arm to Brakes Plus and if they need to use it as reference they can. That would still be cheaper than the outrageous prices Acura would charge me.
My brother took his tools back to his shop and I won't be able to get them back until the weekend. :/
Well UPS somehow lost 2 of my 4 new tires, so everything has been delayed until next week while Discount Tire ships out a new pair (fantastic customer service from them btw). I guess I'll get my brothers tools and readjust the arms this weekend..
For the same reason I did. As the car ages, metal fatigue starts to take its toll on alignment specs. Replacing the arms with adjustable ones helps compensate for that.
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Let me clear something up here, because I was the one who told you about the Ingalls arms issues.
First, ask yourself just what the issue is? If you are using adjustable arms to compensate for suspension wear, then it is not the right way to fix this. If you have worn springs and struts then by all means change those out. Because you'll just spend hundreds of dollars doing alignments with worn springs and struts. You are just patching the problem. Fix the root of the problem.
Second, you do not need the 2 rear lower adjustable arms to adjust toe and camber. This is the ONLY necessary if your car is very low and requires more than 3 degree of camber adjustment. This is evident for guys that lower more than 2.5". You just have worn suspension bushings maybe worn springs and struts. When I had the 2 rear lower arms on there, the alignment guys would tell me how adjusting one arm would affect the other setting so there is too much play to keep one setting in place. So while adjusting the toe, the camber moves, while adjusting the camber, toe moves. There is much play with that setup. If you want to keep those arms, then you zero out the OEM cam eccentric bolt that's on the inner side of one of the lower control arms then adjust using your arms. OR, the best scenario is to keep the toe adjustment to the OEM cam bolt only and adjust the camber using an upper control arm only. There is a good reason why Honda allows for only toe adjustment in the rear because there are many arms in the rear and adjusting one affects the toe.
Find yourself a good speed shop to do adjustments on the custom length arms. I go to a shop where all the techs drive dumped Civics. Now if I feel that the rear camber is still in check, I go to Honda to get the toe back in spec only. I recommend you staying away from Firestone, NTB, Pepboys... any of those shops, because the guys might not know how to do alignment properly. I had a lifetime alignment thing at NTB, and the alignment always came out worse than when I went in!! I now go to either Honda or a local shop to get toe adjusted only, and I go to the speed shop to get camber adjusted when needed. The SPC upper adjustable control arm is very good and does not move like those with soft bushings from Ingalls or other manufacturers. Or, if you really want those lower arms, then you go with Hard Race arms like I said, those are the only adjustable arms that don't move and stay in place once adjustment is done.
^and that is why I ended up with upper 1 arm SPC for camber correction. I'd rather run negative 2 degrees of natural camber and have the toe set up properly (IE, full tank of gas and driver in car at time of alignment, the TL squats a lot with weight)...
than to run any of those 2 armed ones. I remember coming home from a big name alignment with one of those and the tire was so far out of toe that it looked perpendicular to the fender in the rear (exaggerating but it was super far out).
Let me clear something up here, because I was the one who told you about the Ingalls arms issues.
First, ask yourself just what the issue is? If you are using adjustable arms to compensate for suspension wear, then it is not the right way to fix this. If you have worn springs and struts then by all means change those out. Because you'll just spend hundreds of dollars doing alignments with worn springs and struts. You are just patching the problem. Fix the root of the problem.
Second, you do not need the 2 rear lower adjustable arms to adjust toe and camber. This is the ONLY necessary if your car is very low and requires more than 3 degree of camber adjustment. This is evident for guys that lower more than 2.5". You just have worn suspension bushings maybe worn springs and struts. When I had the 2 rear lower arms on there, the alignment guys would tell me how adjusting one arm would affect the other setting so there is too much play to keep one setting in place. So while adjusting the toe, the camber moves, while adjusting the camber, toe moves. There is much play with that setup. If you want to keep those arms, then you zero out the OEM cam eccentric bolt that's on the inner side of one of the lower control arms then adjust using your arms. OR, the best scenario is to keep the toe adjustment to the OEM cam bolt only and adjust the camber using an upper control arm only. There is a good reason why Honda allows for only toe adjustment in the rear because there are many arms in the rear and adjusting one affects the toe.
Find yourself a good speed shop to do adjustments on the custom length arms. I go to a shop where all the techs drive dumped Civics. Now if I feel that the rear camber is still in check, I go to Honda to get the toe back in spec only. I recommend you staying away from Firestone, NTB, Pepboys... any of those shops, because the guys might not know how to do alignment properly. I had a lifetime alignment thing at NTB, and the alignment always came out worse than when I went in!! I now go to either Honda or a local shop to get toe adjusted only, and I go to the speed shop to get camber adjusted when needed. The SPC upper adjustable control arm is very good and does not move like those with soft bushings from Ingalls or other manufacturers. Or, if you really want those lower arms, then you go with Hard Race arms like I said, those are the only adjustable arms that don't move and stay in place once adjustment is done.
If you scroll up a little bit I discovered the complete underlying issue
I forgot to mention it as well, but when I started removing the arms my mouth was agape. The first person did the passenger side and left the bolts snapped off that the second mechanic had to fix who did the drivers side. When I was removing the arms and everything from the drivers side the holes were fine, but removing the passenger side arms.... the holes were so enlarged washers/spacers had to be fit in to ensure the arm doesn't move around. Until I can source a new subframe, these arms are the only way I can get a proper alignment right now as the first mechanic absolutely and undeniably fucked my shit up on the passenger side.
I don't even know how the second mechanic managed to rig it when installed the red arms on the passenger side from what the first mechanic fucked up, but props to him. Now I'm going to need a subframe if I ever want to go back to stock arms.
I did such a swap on my previous S2000, but I'm wrapping my head around the TL-S setup as it's FWD so on the surface it looks easier.
Last edited by LightKiosk; 08-04-2018 at 05:08 PM.
Dear gaaaaaaaaad.... so the first mechanic screwed up a mount hole on the frame side?! There is no way to do that, unless he was prying very hard on it. The only thing one needs to do to free a seized bolt on a rear control arm is cutting it out using a sawzall and I saw this done first hand. Please point out using this picture which one he messed up. This is the rear suspension of a TSX, but they are all about the same. And yes, this picture has the infamous Ingalls lower control arms.
It's the hole sitting in the frame, furthest to the back. The second mechanic told me the only thing he could think of to do such much damage would be from trying to take an impact gun to it.
The car has left me completely exhausted at this point and I don't even know where to look first.
Damn, that is the hole that the eccentric bolt goes in, for toe adjustment. Yep, and that's the one I saw live cutting on. You can take an impact to it, but what happens is that the bolt seizes to the metal sleeve of the bushing and would just keep turning. I actually kept the old cut out arms for a while before I threw them out, there is rescuing them. You should take your car back to where the f-up happened and see what they can do.
No way in hell am I taking my car back there. I feared such a thing when I picked the car up and saw how the wheels fit, so I gave them MUCH less than the repair cost they wanted, and they didn't even try fighting it cause they knew.
That gut feeling became a reality when I saw the holes myself. As of now it's pretty solid to be completely honest, nothing out of the ordinary, but I need to keep these adjustable arms if I want any kind of alignment until I can source a subframe.
07-19-2018, 03:51 PM
