vpasla1

Hey all,

I'll start with the usual information, 2004 Acura TL, 5AT, about 275,000km (about 171,000 miles). Stock aside from the Type-S Rear Stabilizer Bar. I was hoping to get some help and clarification on a few things.

First, I got an alignment done this spring when I got new tires installed (Michelin Pilot Sport A/S3+ on A-Spec rims - no complaints whatsoever). I have attached a copy of the alignment sheet for convenience. I went to the mechanic shop where the local Honda dealer outsources their alignments to. Prior to my alignment, I was having significant inner tire wear on the front tires, and some minor inner tire wear on the rears. However, as some of you have experienced, my rear toe adjustments bolts were seized, and the mechanic was unable to adjust the rear toe. The nut comes loose, but the bolt itself seems to be seized in the bushing. I have sprayed some PB Blaster on them a few weeks ago and will be doing so periodically and hopefully I'll be able to break it loose and get another alignment done. The mechanic suggested that the bolt seizes to the rubber inside and the only option is the replace.

My area of concern, aside from the rear toe, is the rear camber. It is getting close to the edge of spec (Left is -1.0 and Right is -1.4 degrees), I know I can get adjustable camber and toe kits, but I was more trying to understand why my rear camber was so negative. There is minimal weight in the trunk (maybe 10-15lbs of stuff maximum). I understand that rear camber is not a major issue as long as the toe is zeroed out and that if the toe isn't zero, then the camber will exaggerate the negative effect of the toe being out of alignment. Also, if I am going to go the way of adjustable kits, what recommendations would you go with? Also any other feedback about the alignment specs would be appreciated.



Secondly, after purchasing the car a couple of years ago, I was able to source a set of wheel locks locally. They are the correct size (M12x1.5) and they are Acura Genuine Accessories (in the package) and the lug nuts are ball seated. However, they did not come with the identification card. They worked with well for installation and removal with no issues. When I got the new tires put on at Costco this spring, they called me in and told me that my lug nut key had a crack and the tire technician had already taken apart the wheel lock key into two pieces (I'm not even sure why he would even do that, considering they are not made to be taken apart - top half and bottom half), showed me the tiny crack and asked me if I wanted him to attempt to remove the wheel locks. I told them I had no issue with the lock and to go ahead and remove them, so he hammered the two pieces of the key together and removed the keyed lug nuts without any issue. However, when he hammered it back together, he didn't align it properly so the two pieces of the lock didn't seat together properly (Clarified in the attached picture).

So, I called McGard and they basically told me that if I don't have an identification card, to talk to the dealer to identify which pattern/colour I have and then order a new wheel lock key. Easy right? The mystery is that both the Honda and Acura dealerships were unable to match up my set with anything they had in their master sets. At the Acura dealership, he went through every single key lock they had and nothing matched up with my existing set. At this point I am at a loss, and also a little surprised that there was no match, but I am hoping someone on this forum may have the same set of locking lug nuts and might be able to help me in identifying them so I can order a new wheel lock key. I have attached some pictures in order to help with the identification. The fact that the lug nuts are definitely ball seated means they were made specifically for Honda/Acura since I don't think any other company uses ball seated lug nuts. I know I can order a new set of wheel locks, or just forgo them since they don't offer much security, but I feel that they act as a deterrent to an extent.





As an aside, I found the part numbers vary slightly between Honda/Acura parts sold in the USA and Canada. As you can see the part number on my package is 08W42-S6M-401, but the corresponding number in the USA is 08W42-S6M-201. I found the same change in part number (the 3rd last digit being a 4 instead of a 2) when I sourced some rear splash guards in Canada. The part number for those were 08P09-SEP-400 here, but the US part number is 08P09-SEP-200(R1). Not sure why they do that but I figured this information may be helpful for some.

Sorry for the long winded post, I just wanted to provide as much information as possible. Thanks in advance!

BROlando

Camber changes as a result of spring sag and bushing wear. It will also slightly change as the alignment technician sets toe.

I just went through the process of cutting my TSX's toe bolts off and replacing them. The bolts and cams themselves are kind of pricey. I bought them from curry Acura's site, which seemed to have the most reasonable shipping charges.

BUY THE ACURA TOE ARM, though. Don't get talked into buying aftermarket replacements. The Acura genuine part has a bearing end instead of a bushing end (on the chassis side).

Use anti sieze when re-assembling the bolts.

Leave the camber alone. Camber kits should be your last resort. I wouldn't fully recommend any of them.

nfnsquared

OP,

You should be able to send a picture to McGard and they can find the proper key from that. I'm surprised that their support department didn't already have you send in a picture.

SPC camber arms have been rock solid for many of us on this forum. Highly recommend them if your camber ventures beyond the negative limit.

srg818

OP, I was in the same situation when the previous owner of my TL-S lost the wheel lock key and I got a quote of $40 for a new wheel lock key from McGard and 1 week+ for shipping, fuck that.

I used my own method to get all 4 wheel locks off. Go to Sears, buy a 3/4" 12-point deep socket(must be 12 point and chrome, not impact version) and hammer it onto the wheel lock and use a breaker bar to loosen it off. If you don't go full caveman there shouldn't be a scratch anywhere on the wheels. Getting the wheel lock out of the socket is a bitch but stick it in a bench vice and use a punch to knock it out and start again on the next wheel lock.

Turbonut

iTrader: (1)

Just a note, although your recommendation has been mentioned before to purchase the OEM non adjustable toe arm because of the "bearing" on the chassis side, there probably isn't going to be much of a problem if one were to go with the "bushing" arms as replacements, but if one were to lower the vehicle or put undo loads on the units, it would be best served to go with the Ingalls arms as the upper and lower arms are all equipped with "bearing" ends.
I would always recommend aftermarket units just for the sake of adjustment if needed and use whatever is needed to keep the alignment specs in manufacturer's range, unless one wants to completely redo the entire suspension.

BROlando

Probably isn't going to be a problem with a bushing arm? Surely you jest. There are a lot of documented issues with bushing style adjustsble lower arms.

OP's camber isn't even out of the "green".

Even if it was....why complicate things by changing the suspension geometry by using LOWER control arm kits? Or even by using an upper adjuster? Its a bandaid fix. And the quality of those parts is nowhere near OEM.

Instead of using aftermarket adjusters that he should not need...the problem (if it exists) should be traced.

Loosely quoting OP, "I know I can buy aftermarket adjusters...but why is my camber out of spec?"

Means he's interested in the cause of the issue.

Is the camber due to the rear of the car sagging due to worn springs? Buy new OEM springs to fix it.

Worn bushings? Buy new OEM arms.

Bent spindle? Buy a new OEM spindle.

The car, if maintained, will have less issues than using aftermarket bandaids to mask the real problem. At 177K, with camber BARELY out of spec...I'd say some general maintenance is a better idea.

You should have a reason to be using aftermarket adjusters as a last resort. A lowered car, would be an example of that situation.

nfnsquared

You mean the old style Ingalls arms (before they updated the ends), correct? They are the only ones that I've seen complaints about..

BROlando

Correct. How ready are you to trust their "update"?

Regardless....I wouldn't use LCA adjusters because it complicates things more than people think about.

And UCA style adjusters are a liability because you're counting on an aftermarket ball joint.

I've heard the argument of "you can never have too much adjustability". OP doesn't need adjustability. And complicating the adjustment is NOT a good thing. Alignment techs are not engineers who are into perfecting the tuning of Acuras. They are in a hurry.

I know that I'm not even anyone's real dad, so I can't tell them what to do. But...my strong, educated, and experienced opinion is to just stick with genuine OEM unless you absolutely need to deviate.

R&D is expensive. And I get why a lot of aftermarket companies are minimizing the expense in order to stay profitable. But there are known cases out there with simple things like bushings and hardware problems causing thousands of $$ of damage on cars.

Turbonut

iTrader: (1)

Don't know how it can complicate things as you state, toe alignment, either adjust the OEM washer or adjust the rod to get into spec, and for the money if one is "near" the max setting can't see any problem with installing aftermarket units for future adjustment if needed as it can all be done at one time while on the rack.
You state as if every part made by Honda/Acura is the best part that money can buy, to which I disagree, but to each their own.

As it's a Forum we have the ability to state our thoughts and then others can decide in what direction to go.

BROlando

Sure. I'm not mindlessly bashing anyone's opinion.

But...I answered the question that OP asked. I didn't blanket it by "always use aftermarket adjustable parts because the adjustment is there whether you need it or not."

If OP had a lowered or modified suspension, my answer would be to buy the most advantageous type of camber correction.

Again...OP's camber is not yet out of spec. The car has 177K miles...it could use normal maintenance. If you buy adjusters...you're going to adjust them to the length of a stock, new arm, most likely.

As far as the argument in quality goes...his parts are STILL within spec at 177K. How many aftermarket parts last that long?

Honda genuine parts have proven to be the BEST option in virtually every case, when compared to aftermarket.

And I gave pretty logical reasons as to why I refuted anyone else's opinion.

OP can do what he wants. I believe I answered based on his very detailed question. And I was merely reasoning out my opinion, based on factual cases.

Turbonut

iTrader: (1)

I'm a firm believer that when one gets into the frozen lower arm bolts and destroys the part, it's time to replace both arms with adjustable units. I never said that he needed them, but with the adjustable units one would be able to get both sides the same, which isn't possible with OEM units.

Really don't want to take the thread in a different direction, but plenty of parts on the Honda/Acura need replacement far before normal intervals. This why there are so may TSB's to correct unforeseen problems after the car leaves the factory, not to mention recalls.

BROlando

The former statement is your opinion. Without beating a dead horse...aftermarket parts have a ton of quality issues that OEM parts do not.

I'm not sure where you're trying to take this.

I didn't say OEM Honda parts were flawless. I said they are of better quality than aftermarket....in almost every single case. I doubt you can find actual case to dispute that.

Also....did Ingalls issue a factory recall and replace all those arms with torn out bushings including labour like Honda does for their safety recalls? Nope. They quietly released an "improved design".

SPC, Ingalls, Moog, and HR have ball joints on the market that, because of some overlooked hardware choices, are prone to just removing themselves from spindles and causing huge damage. That problem could have been avoided by actually LOOKING at the design. One or 2 of them have changed said hardware in certain areas. The other ones haven't.

My Moog compliance bushings removed themselves from their casing in under 50k miles!
My aftermarket swaybar endlinks lasted 10K miles.

Luckily, I went into those choices with my eyes open. Constant inspection is key. Or...you know...just buy the factory part.

Which Honda/Acura chassis parts are prone to wearing before their interval? I'm having trouble thinking of any....

Do you actually have any of the aftermarket parts you're recommending? How long have they been on the car?

Remember...OP's car is an 04 with 177K miles.

cu2wagon

I think one of the key points Rolly is trying to make is that there is a ton of R&D and engineering put into the OEM parts by HondaCo. The same can not always be said for the aftermarket companies. Some times, but not always; and I'd be willing to wager a few dollars that there are no aftermarket companies with near the R&D/Engineering budget of Honda.

Couple that with the fact that OP is *still basically in spec* with the 177k OEM parts; there's no reason to think that any improvement would be made to the situation by going to more adjustable aftermarket parts. Rolly was pointing out that figuring out what lead to the small variable and refreshing with new, would bring things back to dead-nuts.

IN THIS PARTICULAR CASE, it would seem that the OEM parts have been more than adequate and nothing seems to indicate that replacement/refreshed OEM parts would be otherwise for at least another 150k.

I will agree that more adjust-ability can be helpful when adjustments are needed, but it would seem that this is not one of those conditions.

BROlando

any chance you could maybe be nicer about this, bro?

BROlando

Really, in short, what I'm saying is that in order to get adjustment by using an aftermarket part, you are accepting a sizeable downgrade in quality.

One would have a hard time credibly disputing that.

If you *need* the adjustment, then perhaps its worth taking the quality dump.

In OP's case...he's not even out of the "green" yet. A toe alignment will move the camber slightly...and likely put him further in the "green".

Turbonut

iTrader: (1)

Yes a lot of R&D, guess they missed a few key components, front LCA bushings, transmissions, both A/T and 6M/T, hands free link, seat belt actuator, door lock solenoids, rusted rear lower bar bolts resulting in no adjustment, but you won't have the problem with the adj. sleeves, PS hose along with the "O" rings, weak wheels that bend when one looks at them, and one problem that I can't get my arms around as it should never happen, cracked dash, but that can be fixed for @ $1700, and spark plugs that blow out. Just take a look at all the problems listed every day on the Forum.
Geez, I've got an '08 knock around clunker I purchased new that now has 271,000 miles and haven't encountered any of the above problems, just rear hubs at 210,000.

I'm not saying the OEM parts aren't quality, but they are expensive so I wouldn't discount aftermarket parts as replacements. As an example, the timing belt kit can be had for $170 (Asian), but from Acura, the replacement parts are $425 (discount).

Have a great night.

BROlando

vpasla1

Thanks for all the feedback. Sorry for the delayed reply, I read the forum on my phone, but its not the easiest to send a thorough reply using it, so I have to sit down on the computer to do that.

I would just like to add some information, I put brand new OEM rear struts and springs in (came as an assembly) about a year ago (at 163k mi), I didn't do an alignment prior to it, and I didn't do one after since I was planning on getting my front struts installed sooner than later (didn't get them installed on the same day since the pitch fork bolts were completely seized - top and bottom both sides) and the tires I was driving on were near the end of life anyways. No one up here offers unlimited alignments and it can add up very quickly getting multiple alignments. That was also the same time I installed the Type-S stabilizer bar and I also put on Moog Problem Solver end links (they were about 1/3 price of OEM, and they didn't use the weird Allen keys. Also, the reviews were decent). My Honda end links were seized at that point anyways.

@nfnsquared I know McGard used to be able to accept a picture, however I read somewhere (I don't remember where, it was either acurazine or another forum), that they stopped doing that. However, I didn't ask when I spoke with them so I'll be calling them back shortly and seeing if they are able to do that. That would be the easiest process for the replacement lug nut key.

@srg818 The wheel locks are not on the car at the moment. I got them removed at Costco when they changed over the tires and I had the normal lug nuts in the car so I just got them to put those back on and put the locking nuts back in the package. I would have just used the existing lock to remove them if they were still on the car, it may have needed more torque than usual since there was a crack but I'm sure they would come off fine. Putting them back on is the issue since the torque wrench won't get the correct torque (not enough) since the wheel lock key will "flex" since there is a crack in it.

@Roland_Bluntzs Thanks for providing the information with regards to sticking to OEM. I try to stick to OEM when I know aftermarket parts can sometimes be fickle. For example, I replaced my engine mounts using OEM even though they were more costly because I know aftermarkets can lead to extra vibration and some of them don't even have vacuum lines in the front/rear which is a deal breaker for me. Also went with OEM for the upper transmission mount since it was only a few dollars more than the aftermarket options. Also you're right, I was more trying to find why the camber was so close to the outer limit of spec, and rectify the issue, rather than just replace with adjustable parts.

@Turbonut I appreciate the suggestion for aftermarket parts, and I agree that aftermarket parts can be better in some cases. I've been pretty fortunate that most of the common issues haven't plagued me (knock on wood). I'm hoping the OEM toe arms come loose and I won't have to replace them and can get my toe zeroed out. However, if my camber continues to drop further in the negative, I will probably go with adjustable camber arms because I do carry some weight in the trunk sometimes and I would rather that not put stress to drop the camber further out of spec than necessary, which in turn would cause the tires to wear unevenly with the toe out of spec. I did read up on the issues with some of the aftermarket arms and have read about the new revision, and will continue to keep an eye on member's stories as long term reviews pop up.

Great feedback and useful information in this thread (and forum for that matter) for anyone in the same boat, hopefully I can figure out what's causing the camber issues and get it corrected.